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Author Topic: More Christian love.  (Read 24090 times)

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truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2009, 10:39:06 AM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing.  I never said faith was not good or un-required.  I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc.  I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.

SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2009, 12:16:01 PM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing.  I never said faith was not good or un-required.  I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc.  I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.

SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?

Where did I say you didn't have faith?

Offline kicker

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2009, 12:43:24 PM »

Well said JC. 

The issue here is power and control not religion per se.  No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior.  It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.

It's the stronger perception of hyocrisy that sounds the alarm bells and creates a different level of shock when abuse is carried out by religious bodies. 
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Offline Grande

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2009, 12:55:18 PM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

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Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2009, 01:10:33 PM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

She grow up under de Ayatollah... yuh blame she fuh not having faith? lol

Offline kicker

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2009, 01:19:33 PM »

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.



Good point- but complicated.  You're commenting on the doctrine (the set of beliefs, teachings).  TT is commenting on the institution (including the church and those who administer it)- two very different things. So the key question is: Is 'religion' merely limited to a doctrine?  Do the actions of the institution infringe on the official documented teachings of the doctrine?

You can argue that til the end of time.  
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Offline Grande

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2009, 01:22:12 PM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

She grow up under de Ayatollah... yuh blame she fuh not having faith? lol

Yeah she went through a lot of painful cultural processes (She is Somali, ex-Muslim) but apart from dat she real have it in for Islam in its purest form and apparently later on she shrugged off God after living in the Netherlands and reading Enlightenment thinkers. I think I was fascinated how a true believer could do dat. I've read her books; she have an intriguing perspective

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Offline kicker

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2009, 01:23:38 PM »
TT it's called a belief because you can't prove it.  

If you could prove it then it wouldn't be a belief, it would just be a fact.

People believe in the unknown and unproven every day....... it's called the future.  
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Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2009, 01:53:01 PM »
Good point- but complicated.  You're commenting on the doctrine (the set of beliefs, teachings).  TT is commenting on the institution (including the church and those who administer it)- two very different things. So the key question is: Is 'religion' merely limited to a doctrine?  Do the actions of the institution infringe on the official documented teachings of the doctrine?

You can argue that til the end of time. 

I really don't see it as being complicated at all... his condemnation wasn't limited to the Roman Catholic church, nor was it even limited to Roman Catholic dogma... his attack was on Christianity itself.  Sniping with a shotgun.

-------------------------

Grande, my bad I was thinking of the Iranian Nobel Laureate (Shirin Ebadi, ah had to go check).  Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now that you mention her Somali heritage and the "Netherlands"... she's the one who was a minister in the Dutch parliament, right?  If in fact she was influenced by "Enlightenment" writers then I could understand her atheism as they saw religion a cloth used to stifle thinking and oppression...which at the time it was.  But their undoing to me is that they failed to look at it universally, rather than from the confines of their own experience.  To them man is supposed to free himself from 'servitude' (my word) to God in order for him to achieve his full potential.

So to her I could see, given her dissatisfaction with Islam, how their anti-religious rhetoric could find resonance with her.  While a member of the Dutch Parliament wasn't she also opposed to increased immigration?  Kinda ironic, if not hypocritical (assuming I have that factoid straight).

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2009, 02:03:15 PM »
TT it's called a belief because you can't prove it.  

If you could prove it then it wouldn't be a belief, it would just be a fact.

People believe in the unknown and unproven every day....... it's called the future.  

You have me all wrong...Bakes is meh rel boy in trute he always have meh thinking.  lol  de f**ker bright too bad.

I said i chose not to believe.  I feel religion is man made and so are gods.  That is my belief.  I have seen scientific studies that make me marvel at the power of faith.  Simply saying see you tomorrow is a matter of faith.  Havinmg a doctor prescribe meds is faith based  Understood.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2009, 02:10:42 PM »
Bakes in the context of this argument, I was strictly bastardizing the Catholic church, You stated that it was not the fault of the institution itself, I disagreed,as even you acknowledged that the abuse has been widespread, pandemic and institution wide.

I hold less contempt for other forms of Christianity, and equal contempt for those who would push youngsters to strap bombs on their bodies and Proclaim God is great while blowing innocents to bits.

Additionally, I will acknowledge tat my "sniping" does get rabid at times.  You do understand my point of view even if you disagree with it.

Offline Grande

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2009, 02:39:25 PM »
Grande, my bad I was thinking of the Iranian Nobel Laureate (Shirin Ebadi, ah had to go check).  Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now that you mention her Somali heritage and the "Netherlands"... she's the one who was a minister in the Dutch parliament, right?  If in fact she was influenced by "Enlightenment" writers then I could understand her atheism as they saw religion a cloth used to stifle thinking and oppression...which at the time it was.  But their undoing to me is that they failed to look at it universally, rather than from the confines of their own experience.  To them man is supposed to free himself from 'servitude' (my word) to God in order for him to achieve his full potential.

So to her I could see, given her dissatisfaction with Islam, how their anti-religious rhetoric could find resonance with her.  While a member of the Dutch Parliament wasn't she also opposed to increased immigration?  Kinda ironic, if not hypocritical (assuming I have that factoid straight).

Yes Bakes she was the Dutch minister you were thinking about.

She say the major cataylst for her shedding Islam was Sept. 11 and how all what bin laden was saying/doing etc was emulating the Quran and life of Muhummad.

She have ah engaging debate with Tariq Ramadan on youtube if yuh ever get the chance.

Not sure if she was opposed to increased immigration. She had a serious issue with the Dutch concept of multiculturalism, where it lets communities of immigrants just 'be', letting them preserve their traditions and values without criticizing or questioning it especially when it is to the detriment of women, children, homosexuals etc. Accepting the differences without really scrutinizing what makes them/us different. By accepting the perceived injustices, one only perpetuates it and doesn't force the people within the communities to look inwardly and challenge their own values.

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Offline just cool

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2009, 03:45:23 PM »
Life is ah hell of ah thing, and i believe man with their limited knowledge and understanding, will find it hard tuh grasp the harsh realities that life could bring, and equally, put it in prospective.

some ppl react negatively too ah bad experience, while others rise to the occasion and stay within the confines of reality never losing sight of it.

as far as this woman or anyone else fitting her description, they had very bad experiences with religious ppl/ organizations/ family, and i don't blame them for reacting to the abuse, but i do blame them for holding ah crusade against the faith it self!

little boys get victimized in the seminaries, young women get abused by unscrupulous misogynistic middleastern men, ppl's been getting forked up in the name of religion from time in memorium, but there is a but, if we examine the precepts it self of the faiths in question, then i'm pretty sure there would be some serious contradictions on the part of the most popular religious ideas and the ppl who promote them.

the thing that most bothers me about these ppl is that, they have very limited knowledge of the west and it's values, and some ppl amongst them seem tuh hold western values in high esteem, as the ultimate in all social and political ideals, while ignoring the inefficiencies that plagues the west, far more so than anywhere else.

i just think ppl see what they want tuh see, while singling out other for ridicule, while the values that they promote might be open to the same type of scrutiny.

all in all, every single sane human being lives by some set of ideals, and in most cases, there is always something foul in the pot in regard to every man's ideals.
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Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2009, 06:02:12 PM »

Well said JC. 

The issue here is power and control not religion per se.  No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior.  It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.

It's the stronger perception of hypocrisy that sounds the alarm bells and creates a different level of shock when abuse is carried out by religious bodies. 

yeah .. I understand that.  But as you said, they key word is "perception" and the perception that TT aka TC left us with was an inherent tendency to attack all religion more than he targets atheistic ne'er-do-wells.   TC has sinced address that perception.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2009, 08:12:30 PM »
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods.  But I have no problem with your faith.  Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see.  Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future".  Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible?  The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.

Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing.  I never said faith was not good or un-required.  I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc.  I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.

SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?

Where did I say you didn't have faith?

my son just IM'ed me the following:



Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.

The following sequence describes a justified believer.

1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief

But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.

And here is where atheists and theists have something in common

Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists  lol

The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge

Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification.  But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.


I now have a headache




« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 08:16:05 PM by pecan »
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2009, 08:16:38 PM »
And here is where atheists and theists have something in common

Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists  lol
Bravo Pecan Bravo :D
now the retort to this will be very Interesting indeed ;D
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Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2009, 08:18:48 PM »
And here is where atheists and theists have something in common

Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists  lol
Bravo Pecan Bravo :D
now the retort to this will be very Interesting indeed ;D

Ed Zachery !!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2009, 10:07:52 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2009, 11:58:34 PM »

You have me all wrong...Bakes is meh rel boy in trute he always have meh thinking.  lol  de f**ker bright too bad.

I said i chose not to believe.  I feel religion is man made and so are gods.  That is my belief.  I have seen scientific studies that make me marvel at the power of faith.  Simply saying see you tomorrow is a matter of faith.  Havinmg a doctor prescribe meds is faith based  Understood.


Kicker pick up on mih point though... faith is belief absent of proof.  If all you believe in are things of which you have proof then that is belief born of knowledge and not faith.  Your "faith" that gravity will keep you grounded isn't faith but knowledge.  Which is why I mentioned "faith" in only that which you can see as not being faith... if you can see, feel touch it etc.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2009, 12:15:29 AM »
my son just IM'ed me the following:



Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.

The following sequence describes a justified believer.

1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief

But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.

And here is where atheists and theists have something in common

Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists  lol

The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge

Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification.  But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.


I now have a headache






"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...

I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in, but that's a very common rhetorical fallacy... create a false dichotomy, break down that dichotomy to arrive at a pre-determined point thereby justifying to yourself and the unsophisticated that your point is correct.  I'm speaking here of the author of this tautology not of you yourself.

"belief" and "faith"  as posited above are mutually exclusive and as such there is no such thing as justified or unjustified belief ---> "false dichotomy". 

Faith isn't a rational stance hence stating that agnosticism is the only rational position is a bit of stating the obvious... which kinda goes back to the opening quote.

Offline Grande

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2009, 01:55:15 AM »

as far as this woman or anyone else fitting her description, they had very bad experiences with religious ppl/ organizations/ family, and i don't blame them for reacting to the abuse, but i do blame them for holding ah crusade against the faith it self!


Well Ayaan has lived and breathed her faith well into her adulthood. She has 100 % immersion in the holy sources of the faith and has lived in one of the countries where she believes the faith is practiced in its purest form (Saudi Arabia).

I understand the anger at the 'crusades' of men like Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens but when someone like Ayaan, or others from deep within the faith themselves - culture aside - speak out about it and make such ah leap to nonbelief, yuh can't help but have a listen.

I hear yuh on the rest of yuh post doh - about every single sane human being.

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Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2009, 12:19:03 PM »
my son just IM'ed me the following:



Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.

The following sequence describes a justified believer.

1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief

But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.

And here is where atheists and theists have something in common

Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists  lol

The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge

Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification.  But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.


I now have a headache






"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...

I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in, but that's a very common rhetorical fallacy... create a false dichotomy, break down that dichotomy to arrive at a pre-determined point thereby justifying to yourself and the unsophisticated that your point is correct.  I'm speaking here of the author of this tautology not of you yourself.

"belief" and "faith"  as posited above are mutually exclusive and as such there is no such thing as justified or unjustified belief ---> "false dichotomy". 

Faith isn't a rational stance hence stating that agnosticism is the only rational position is a bit of stating the obvious... which kinda goes back to the opening quote.

Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief

This is but one definition of knowledge and like any hypothesis, it is subject to challenge (and has been challenged).

But within the context that I used it, "belief" and "faith" are not mutually exclusive nor do I see the basis for your argument that there is “no such thing as justified or unjustified belief”. In fact, one can argue the opposite. Beliefs can be based on empirical evidence i.e. they are justified or they can be unjustified as religious Faith tends to be.

Religious Faith describes a belief of something without adequate reason or justification.  In this context, ‘Justification’ is just a reason for holding a belief and should not be viewed as a word loaded with judgment.

To answer you comment about “ 'I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in' the concept of a 'justified believer’ is related to the posts on Faith and is not a non sequitur.

The use of the JTB to analyze Faith leads to the humorous conclusion (IMO) that atheists and non-atheists have much in common if this logic is applied equally to both beliefs.  This is not a comment on the accuracy of the concept of JTB.  Hence it is not a “false dichotomy” nor "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2009, 02:57:26 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2009, 03:01:09 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D

And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?

from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »


I hold less contempt for other forms of Christianity, and equal contempt for those who would push youngsters to strap bombs on their bodies and Proclaim God is great while blowing innocents to bits.

Additionally, I will acknowledge tat my "sniping" does get rabid at times.  You do understand my point of view even if you disagree with it.

Look at the Anglicans Now


Newfoundland Anglican priest faces child porn charges
Posted: December 09, 2009, 7:10 PM by Ron Nurwisah
Charles Lewis, Anglican Church

By Charles Lewis

A highly respected Anglican priest in Newfoundland has been charged with possession and distribution of child pornography that included online images and videos of babies, police said on Wednesday.

Reverend Robin Barrett, 52, of the parish of New Hope near St. John’s, was arrested on Tuesday in Newfoundland. He is in custody and is expected to have a bail hearing on Wednesday.

Detective Paul Krawczyk of the Toronto police child exploitation unit said his group opened an investigation last month.

“This was an undercover investigation. We came upon a person on the Internet that we became concerned about because of what was being said and what was being shared,” said Det. Krawczyk. “We made contact with this person, in an undercover capacity, and during that time received child pornography from this person.

“We’re alleging the images and videos he passed were extremely young, as young as babies.”

Det. Krawczyk said the child exploitation section constantly monitors the Internet for these kind of images.

“A lot of our arrests these days are from us being proactive online,” he said. “They don’t all end up in our own backyard. The reality of the Internet is you end up in other places.”

He said the information was then passed on to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, which made the arrest on Wednesday. Newfoundland police recently created a child exploitation unit to specifically deal with trafficking of child pornography.

Both police forces are now trying to figure out where the images were made and by whom.

None of the charges have been proven in court.

“News of the arrest brought shock, surprise, disappointment. All of those emotions, obviously,” said Elizabeth Barnes, executive officer of the Diocese of Eastern Newfound and Labrador.

“I’ve worked with him directly. I always found him a genuine, caring individual and his call to social causes is exemplary of the kind of man he is.”

Rev. Barrett, who is now suspended with pay from his duties, has been involved with ecumenical groups and groups pushing for social justice in the province.

Ms. Barnes said that he is well known for his compassion for those in the province who have been marginalized.

In November 2003, Rev. Barrett, who was then married with three children, announced publicly that he was gay.

“At the time we had to wrestle with that,” Ms. Barnes said. “The Anglican Communion has been wrestling with the issue of homosexuality so it was a big issue then.

But I believe a lot of our people have made peace with it and accepted him and worked with him on his merits as a priest and a man and his sexuality became no more of an issue than yours or mine.”

She added: “This is really not a gay issue. Child porn is not connected with homosexuality, but people will bring it up.”

In September, Raymond Lahey, 69, the Catholic bishop of the Diocese of Antigonish was charged by Ottawa police with possession and importation of child pornography after his computer was searched at the Ottawa airport.

And this week a British Columbia pastor, Larry Robert Collins, 45, was sentenced to 15 months in jail after he admitted making an explicit video that simulated the rape of a young teenager.

Det. Krawczyk said in his experience many people who are caught have public positions of responsibility and yet they still believe their activities are invisible.

“You and I find it hard to believe, but we don’t have an [sexual] interest in kids. But I don’t think it’s an addiction. You take this away and they don’t have the signs of withdrawal that you would have with a typical addiction. The reality is these people are so interested in this, and want to obtain material, they’re willing to take the chance they do. And that is really telling. They have a lot to lose and they’re still doing it.”

National Post
clewis@nationalpost.com

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/12/09/newfoundland-anglican-priest-faces-child-porn-charges.aspx#ixzz0ZK1RmwES


Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D

And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?

from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?

 :rotfl:

Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la .   When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good).  And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends.  That is all I hope for.

But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2009, 03:07:45 PM »

Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.


I'm busy the rest of the week... will get back to you next week.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2009, 03:34:30 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D

And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?

from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?

 :rotfl:

Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la .   When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good).  And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends.  That is all I hope for.

But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny

So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2009, 03:48:41 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D

And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?

from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?

 :rotfl:

Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la .   When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good).  And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends.  That is all I hope for.

But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny

So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.

I am enjoying my life   ...plus I do derive some enjoyment out of these discussions. All part of the journey my friend.

Plus, look at my signature  ;)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline dinho

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2009, 04:44:36 PM »
When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space.  When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning.  I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.

Check out Hume's Induction Problem

Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:

   1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or

   2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).

The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.

So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space  ;D

And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?

from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?

 :rotfl:

Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la .   When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good).  And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends.  That is all I hope for.

But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny

So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.


you mean like how you do?
         

 

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