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truetrini

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Death penalty for gays?
« on: December 08, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »

Death penalty for gays? Uganda debates proposal
AP

By KATHARINE HOURELD and GODFREY OLUKYA, Associated Press Writers Katharine Houreld And Godfrey Olukya, Associated Press Writers 2 hrs 34 mins ago

KAMPALA, Uganda Proposed legislation would impose the death penalty for some gay Ugandans, and their family and friends could face up to seven years in jail if they fail to report them to authorities. Even landlords could be imprisoned for renting to homosexuals.

Gay rights activists say the bill, which has prompted growing international opposition, promotes hatred and could set back efforts to combat HIV/AIDS. They believe the bill is part of a continentwide backlash because Africa's gay community is becoming more vocal.

"It's a question of visibility," said David Cato, who became an activist after he was beaten up four times, arrested twice, fired from his teaching job and outed in the press because he is gay. "When we come out and ask for our rights, they pass laws against us."

The legislation has drawn global attention from activists across the spectrum of views on gay issues. The measure was proposed in Uganda following a visit by leaders of U.S. conservative Christian ministries that promote therapy for gays to become heterosexual. However, at least one of those leaders has denounced the bill, as have some other conservative and liberal Christians in the United States.

The Ugandan legislation in its current form would mandate a death sentence for active homosexuals living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. "Serial offenders" also could face capital punishment, but the legislation does not define the term. Anyone convicted of a homosexual act faces life imprisonment.

Anyone who "aids, abets, counsels or procures another to engage of acts of homosexuality" faces seven years in prison if convicted. Landlords who rent rooms or homes to homosexuals also could get seven years and anyone with "religious, political, economic or social authority" who fails to report anyone violating the act faces three years.

The bill is still being debated and could undergo changes before a vote, which hasn't yet been set. But gay-rights activists abroad are focusing on the legislation. A protest against the bill is planned for Thursday in London; protests were held last month in New York and Washington.

David Bahati, the legislator sponsoring the bill, said he was encouraging "constructive criticism" to improve the law but insisted strict measures were necessary to stop homosexuals from "recruiting" schoolchildren.

"The youths in secondary schools copy everything from the Western world and America," said high school teacher David Kisambira. "A good number of students have been converted into gays. We hear there are groups of people given money by some gay organizations in developed countries to recruit youth into gay activities."

Uganda's ethics minister, James Nsaba Buturo, said the death sentence clause would probably be reviewed but maintained the law was necessary to counter foreign influence. He said homosexuality "is not natural in Uganda," a view echoed by some Ugandans.

"I feel that the bill is good and necessary, but I don't think gays should be killed. They should be imprisoned for about a year and warned never to do it again. The family is in danger in Uganda because the rate at which vice is spreading is appalling," said shopkeeper John Muwanguzi.

Uganda is not the only country considering anti-gay laws. Nigeria, where homosexuality is already punishable by imprisonment or death, is considering strengthening penalties for activities deemed to promote it. Burundi just banned same-sex relationships and Rwanda is considering it.

Homophobia is rife even in more tolerant African countries.

In Kenya, homosexuality is illegal but the government has acknowledged its existence by launching sexual orientation survey to improve health care. Nevertheless, the recent marriage of two Kenyan men in London caused outrage. The men's families in Kenya were harassed by reporters and villagers.

In South Africa, the only African nation to recognize gay marriage, gangs carry out so-called "corrective" rapes on lesbians. A 19-year-old lesbian athlete was gang-raped, tortured and murdered in 2008.

Debate over the Ugandan bill follows a conference in Kampala earlier this year attended by American activists who consider same-gender relationships sinful, and believe gays and lesbians can become heterosexual through prayer and counseling. Author Don Schmierer and "sexual reorientation coach" Caleb Lee Brundidge took part; they did not respond to interview requests.

A third American who took part in the conference in Uganda, Scott Lively, said the bill has gone too far.

"I agree with the general goal but this law is far too harsh," said Lively, a California-based preacher and author of "The Pink Swastika" and other books that advise parents how to "recruit-proof" their children from gays.

"Society should actively discourage all sex outside of marriage and that includes homosexuality ... The family is under threat," he said. Gay people "should not be parading around the streets," he added.

Frank Mugisha, a gay Ugandan human rights activist, said the bill was so poorly worded that someone could be imprisoned for giving a hug.

"This bill is promoting hatred," he said. "We're turning Uganda into a police state. It will drive people to suicide."

Buturo played down the influence of foreign evangelicals, saying the proposed legislation was an expression of popular outrage against "repugnant" practices. But activists like Cato argue anti-gay attitudes are a foreign import.

"In the beginning, when the missionaries brought religion, they said they were bringing love," he said. "Instead they brought hate, through homophobia."

Susan Timberlake, a senior adviser on human rights and law from UNAIDS, said such laws could hinder the fight against HIV/AIDS by driving people further underground. And activists also worry that the legislation could be used to blackmail or silence government critics.

Cato said he thinks the Ugandan bill will pass, perhaps in an altered form.

"It's such a setback. But I hope we can overcome it," he said. "I cannot believe this is happening in the 21st century."

___

Associated Press Writer Katharine Houreld reported from Nairobi, Kenya

Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 07:52:51 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 08:41:00 PM »
ah Ugandan fella I was talkin to today, say it is the ROMAN CATHOLIC church behind this :P
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 05:02:15 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
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Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 08:15:30 AM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
 





Capo they will make you apologise in the public  :rotfl: :rotfl:
.
good things happening to good people: a good thing
good things happening to bad people: a bad thing
bad things happening to good people: a bad thing
bad things happening to bad people: a good thing

Offline warmonga

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 01:18:12 AM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
IF MI NUH RESPOND TO YOUR POST OR COMMENTS IS BECAUSE  YU DEY PON MI IGNORE LIST ,CYA MI NUH LIKE UGLY PEOPLE, FAGGOTS, AND RACIST f**kS.....
anytime an Indian defends his ethnicity and his religious beliefs he is labelled  racist by those who are....

Offline just cool

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 12:44:29 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline warmonga

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 01:44:18 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
Just cool none of my 5 sons will turn out a fagot. dem daddy love pum pum to much for dem not to luv pum pum. evenmi 3 year old have galfriend already  . being a homo is f**kin sin . In di Bhagwatgeeta, koran , bible and all other holy books . Gays will burn in hell . Dont mad wid me cya mi nuh like homo's Its written in the holy books . Vexs wid god not me . Doh ask me to apologise ask god too.
Happy Holidays.. :beermug:
war..


war
IF MI NUH RESPOND TO YOUR POST OR COMMENTS IS BECAUSE  YU DEY PON MI IGNORE LIST ,CYA MI NUH LIKE UGLY PEOPLE, FAGGOTS, AND RACIST f**kS.....
anytime an Indian defends his ethnicity and his religious beliefs he is labelled  racist by those who are....

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 01:54:29 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
Just cool none of my 5 sons will turn out a fagot. dem daddy love pum pum to much for dem not to luv pum pum. evenmi 3 year old have galfriend already  . being a homo is f**kin sin . In di Bhagwatgeeta, koran , bible and all other holy books . Gays will burn in hell . Dont mad wid me cya mi nuh like homo's Its written in the holy books . Vexs wid god not me . Doh ask me to apologise ask god too.
Happy Holidays.. :beermug:
war..


war

More love from the Christians?  Kill the homos?  They are sinners?  Sin has different degrees now..all de pum pum yuh love up and yuh was not married to the women....dat is not sinning too?  Death to the pum pum lovers.

And people does get vex with my abhorrence to religion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-DyWeK28k&feature=related

Look at that video war and tell me what you think of it!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 02:07:31 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline pecan

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 03:51:27 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
Just cool none of my 5 sons will turn out a fagot. dem daddy love pum pum to much for dem not to luv pum pum. evenmi 3 year old have galfriend already  . being a homo is f**kin sin . In di Bhagwatgeeta, koran , bible and all other holy books . Gays will burn in hell . Dont mad wid me cya mi nuh like homo's Its written in the holy books . Vexs wid god not me . Doh ask me to apologise ask god too.
Happy Holidays.. :beermug:
war..


war

I was trying hard to ignore this post ... but to hell with that  >:(

And you making me agree again with JC to boot .. steups

So much pure utter s**t spewing from your mouth that I swear is two girls and one cup I watching .. steups. 

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 03:52:50 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
Just cool none of my 5 sons will turn out a fagot. dem daddy love pum pum to much for dem not to luv pum pum. evenmi 3 year old have galfriend already  . being a homo is f**kin sin . In di Bhagwatgeeta, koran , bible and all other holy books . Gays will burn in hell . Dont mad wid me cya mi nuh like homo's Its written in the holy books . Vexs wid god not me . Doh ask me to apologise ask god too.
Happy Holidays.. :beermug:
war..


war

More love from the Christians?  Kill the homos?  They are sinners?  Sin has different degrees now..all de pum pum yuh love up and yuh was not married to the women....dat is not sinning too?  Death to the pum pum lovers.

And people does get vex with my abhorrence to religion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-DyWeK28k&feature=related

Look at that video war and tell me what you think of it!

TC, I have to apologize to you. War take the cake.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 04:43:27 PM »
Talking about Gays, HIV and intravenous drug use ;)

Has any one here seen the Documentary

"Rampant: How a City Stopped a Plague"

is about the needle exchange in Australia that has been proven to reduce the spread of Hep and Hiv
Many other jurisdictions should implement this policy
The far right here in Victoria are totally against the needle exchange........even if it saves lives
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 05:15:00 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline just cool

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 05:57:52 PM »
wonder if they could implement that in america. :P
dem love homos in the U.S more than straight ppl. dem does do like we straight ppl have a problem.. I luv uganda now eh.. bun dem homos to de freeking fullest!!!!!!!!!!

war
What if yuh son turn out gay? would you still feel the same way? it's easier to say when it doh strike home, and iz somebody else child.
Just cool none of my 5 sons will turn out a fagot. dem daddy love pum pum to much for dem not to luv pum pum. evenmi 3 year old have galfriend already  . being a homo is f**kin sin . In di Bhagwatgeeta, koran , bible and all other holy books . Gays will burn in hell . Dont mad wid me cya mi nuh like homo's Its written in the holy books . Vexs wid god not me . Doh ask me to apologise ask god too.
Happy Holidays.. :beermug:
war..


war
Breds, let meh let yuh in on ah little secret, in the bible, jesus was caught up in ah lynching situation, in today's world we would call it ah lynch mob, any way, the ppl wanted tuh stone this bad gyul for cheating on she husband.

now according to israelite law stoning was the punishment for adultery, so all the big dread and dem wid they natty long down tuh their waste and corncurl nuts in their beard holding their holy staff/ big stick, and the high priest with they big holy beards and all the self righteous a$$holes was calling for her head, yuh know what christ said to them, "those of you without sin cast the first stone"!

every body had tuh drop they stone and ride out, then he ask the woman tuh cool it and go back home tuh she husband and sin no more. now , if that was ah faggot, ah thief, ah robber, i believe christ woulda do the same thing.

as for the quran, i've read the book upside down and accross, and i never see nothing in that book that talked about killing gays, the only mention of it was of the ppl of lot, and how the ppl tried to molest some angelic guest of lot, and they were blinded and the city was destroyed, that's BC they were evil livers.

now the discrepancy implicates homosexuality as the main cause, that's BC a verse stated that"you men leave the women that god gave you and have sex wid males"! i truly believe these fellas was doing all kinda madness including raping men, and that's what they wanted tuh do tuh lots guest, and that's why they were destroyed.

now i believe that anal sex is ah wrong, and male nor female should indulge in anal sex, but if ah man love man, no fault of his own, then who's you tuh say ah man cyar do that, i believe if they do that and not have sex, then i would go out on ah limb and say, i dont think it's an offence if they abstain from anal sex.

as for them being nasty and disgusting, now i doubt them bredders consciously choose that life for themselves, someone would have to be crazy too!

doh mind dem jamaican and dem wid they nonsense nah bro, sometimes we as fortunate heterosexuals have tuh have compassion on dem ppl bro, most of them men does committ suicide, and the rest does be miserable till death do dem part, no fault of theirs.

can you imagine, ah thief is ah more acceptable thing in society than ah faggot, even ah dog have more rank than ah foggot! what ah miserable existence.  i have two cousins who iz faggots, and my sister and three other ppl in the family including myself iz the only ones who does even look @ them, that's how homophobic we west indians can be.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 05:06:28 AM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 07:15:38 PM »
Thanks Just Cool
some serious "food for thought" there
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2009, 07:45:48 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?

SURA LII:24

"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."

SURA LXXVI:19

"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2009, 07:57:14 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:59:56 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2009, 08:01:25 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:04:49 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2009, 08:09:20 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
wasnt there a religion created because the Pope would not give a divorce to some King or the other :devil: :devil:
another thing to make you go hhhmmmmmmm
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:14:17 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline pecan

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2009, 08:24:43 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
wasnt there a religion created because the Pope would not give a divorce to some King or the other :devil: :devil:
another thing to make you go hhhmmmmmmm



well that same religion have Bishops in Uganda who supporting the governments Bill on anti-homosexual. Have me vex as the Archbishop of Canterbury has yet to speak out and denounce said Bishops because he dont want to upset them.  But he has spoken out against that first openly female gay Bishop elect in the USA.  All about PR instead of protecting the vulnerable. No wonder TC is get vex with the Church.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:26:32 PM by pecan »
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2009, 09:50:56 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
wasnt there a religion created because the Pope would not give a divorce to some King or the other :devil: :devil:
another thing to make you go hhhmmmmmmm
well that same religion have Bishops in Uganda who supporting the governments Bill on anti-homosexual. Have me vex as the Archbishop of Canterbury has yet to speak out and denounce said Bishops because he dont want to upset them.  But he has spoken out against that first openly female gay Bishop elect in the USA.  All about PR instead of protecting the vulnerable. No wonder TC is get vex with the Church.
wait
he has openly condemned that appointment ???
orrite man, do ya ting AoC

take a moment and let her comment perculate.......
""Any group of people who have been oppressed because of any one, isolated aspect of their persons yearns for justice and equal rights," Glasspool said in a statement, thanking the diocese for choosing her."

like ya ent goin an joinup wid the "Anglican Church in North America" :devil:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:59:37 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline just cool

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2009, 05:44:14 AM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
It have ppl who say i is ah foggot, just BC i doh dog gay ppl , and i have ah few relatives and childhood friends who turn out gay and i does still deal wid dem like iz nothing.

and right now it have ppl who coming out the wood work saying how obama iz ah faggot!  even ah man came forward saying he was micheal jackson's lover, after the man dead and can't defend himself. man does slander man all the time, especially wid gay slander!

my point iz , muhammad eh here tuh defend he self, so ppl could say what they want! do you know how many hadiths were written?  HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!!!!! THAT WOULD MEAN EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY MUHAMMAD WOULD BE TALKING , EVEN WHEN HE WAS ASLEEP!!! that just goes to show how many hadiths were fabricated , some even for ah specific purpose, and that's to slander the messenger!

a lot of jews also wrote hadiths in order to discredit muhammad! that's why it have ah verse in the quran that states, who ever tells a lie about god and his messenger( muhammad) hell will be there portion.

as for the sura yuh quote about the eternal yutes, why that have tuh have sexual connotations, instead of just plain ole beauty of life? even angels are always depicted as beautiful young men with long flowing hair. i doh see nothing gay about that! take yuh mind out the gutter and the bias lane!

i does admire my son's and nephews, and dem fellas real pretty. it does make me proud tuh see such beautiful children in my family, and nothing sexual ever occured to me in my admiration of them, nor any sick thought that may have sexual connotations! like i said before, we west indians and even english speaking ppl on the whole, does push ah real sick head and does deal wid every thing on ah gender and sexual tip!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:10:51 PM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline pecan

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2009, 07:59:23 AM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
wasnt there a religion created because the Pope would not give a divorce to some King or the other :devil: :devil:
another thing to make you go hhhmmmmmmm
well that same religion have Bishops in Uganda who supporting the governments Bill on anti-homosexual. Have me vex as the Archbishop of Canterbury has yet to speak out and denounce said Bishops because he dont want to upset them.  But he has spoken out against that first openly female gay Bishop elect in the USA.  All about PR instead of protecting the vulnerable. No wonder TC is get vex with the Church.
wait
he has openly condemned that appointment ???
orrite man, do ya ting AoC

take a moment and let her comment perculate.......
""Any group of people who have been oppressed because of any one, isolated aspect of their persons yearns for justice and equal rights," Glasspool said in a statement, thanking the diocese for choosing her."

like ya ent goin an joinup wid the "Anglican Church in North America" :devil:

an indirect condemnation - i.e  that the appointment can further the rift within the Anglican Communion.  So no direct support = an indirect condemnation.


 

By Tom Leonard in New York
Published: 8:12PM GMT 06 Dec 2009

Archbishop of Canterbury concern over lesbian bishop

"The Archbishop of Canterbury has expressed concern at the election of a lesbian bishop to a Los Angeles diocese. Dr Rowan Williams warned Episcopal Church leaders that they risk breaking "our bonds of mutual affection" if they ordain the openly gay reverend as an assistant bishop."
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline just cool

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2009, 01:31:30 PM »
Look West Coast..more food for thought...wonder what the implications are for this?
SURA LII:24
"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI:19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
check this online debate
some people MAD no armen oui

LOL  of course some will say that the Hadiths are fake, yet when they use them for jihad etc. subjugaing women etc..they are ok.

There is also evidence that he married his sons wife after he saw her and thought her beautiful, his sone divorced her and the Prophet married her.   things to make you go hmmmmmm!
Why yuh doh do yuh research before yuh slander ppl?? FYI that was not his son!!! but ah yute whom he raised from small dat was an orphan! his name was zaid and he lived wid Muhammad and his wife since he was like 11 or 12 yrs old.

muhammad had two son that died in infancy, ibrahim and qasim, and like i told yuh before, yuh does grasp @ straws tuh prove ah point, but IMO you have no desire tuh establish the truth! that's how much you're blinded by your hatred for divinity, and anyone who champions it.

but doh worry, your type iz nothing new! it had countless fellas who lived before your time who was real vehement opponents of divinity and when confronted wid the reality of life and death , they recanted, merneptah (supposedly the pharaoh who had it out wid moses) for instance, when he was @ deaths door he exclaimed the divinity of god and wanted tuh submit, but it was too late for him.

my advice to you would be tuh take heed, Bc yuh headed in the same direction. the power of god iz ah real real real great phenomenon, and when yuh decide tuh play wid god, yuh choose ah bad game tuh play, yuh better off playing wid fire bro.                       positive.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2009, 01:51:27 PM »
so he adopted him, and that is not his son?  Anyway he make his little fren divorce his wife so he could marry her.

Dat eh right..I not arguing with you.  Fact is Zayd was a son to him, was under his care, and he coveted and married the mans wife!




Offline just cool

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »
so he adopted him, and that is not his son?  Anyway he make his little fren divorce his wife so he could marry her.

Dat eh right..I not arguing with you.  Fact is Zayd was a son to him, was under his care, and he coveted and married the mans wife!




That's not true either, zaid divorced her first, and then muhammad married her. like you forgetting one thing? 5th century eastern culture is totally differant from contemporary western culture! it seem to me like yuh trying tuh familiarize the two when that's not even remotely possible.

back then, when ah man died, his brother or his best friend had preference in marrying his wife, back then marrying a woman was no bed of roses either, ppl used tuh do it out of obligation, another wife was ah huge burden for ah man, after all, the man already had ah few wives, do you really think muhammad needed that extra burden?

my answer would be no! in the quran there's mention of that said scenario, where it is written for him tuh marry the woman and forget about zaid's hang ups. as yuh dun know, muhammad was totally against marrying the woman, but he was ordered by gabriel tuh do so.(oh ah forget, you doh believe in angels either).

yuh see that's the problem with allyuh orientalist, allyuh does want tuh quote ppl's books , but not proficient enough in the study to render ah fair correct account of the events. all you care about iz slandering, so the littlest discrepancy come along and yuh jump on it like ah grass hopper.

bottom line iz, yuhs ah disbeliever in divinity, regardless of what, but your problem iz you only cater for the most popular religions, but it have ppl who hold spiritual beliefs that's rarely been spoken of, it have WIKEN, SCIENTOLOGY, SECRET SOCIETIES, FREE MASONS, LOTS OF COBENS ALL OVER THE WORLD, what about them?

iz time yuh tackle dem as well, they believe in god, demons , good and evil, see if yuh could prove them all wrong!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:13:31 PM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2009, 07:29:15 PM »
fella, my goal is not to disprove anything.  You trying to prove something to me!

Mohammed had a habit of writing scripture to suit his actions..like the time he sent his men to rob travellers.  Justifyinmg his actions after the fact.  run by yuh frens dem to correct me, Mohammed was told by an angel to have his son (adopted) to divorce his wife so he could marry her!

Suras in the Quran does convientently pop up so  Mohammed can justify his actions. e.g, when he wanted his adopted son's wife, he suddenly get a revelation from Allah declaring it right to take another man's wife. When he wanted to stop his wives from quarreling or to accept more wives, he got a quick revelation for that too.  If yuh know de history most ah dem revelations come AFTER he do he do!

Also, throughout the Koran, the history is all wrong...that is the chain of events not chronological at all.

Yuh like to sayu how scientific the Koran is, Like when He say Allah created mountains to stop the earthquakes?

Or when he wrote the moon was a light like the sun?  Or maybe when he talk about the stars and say they were darts to throw at demons?

Or when Mohammed say de sun does set in a muddy pool? Or what about de ants and dem that did talk to Solomon?

Or when he talk about the Pyramids and dem?

Haman - A minister of the Pharoah?
(Koran 28:8)
...For Pharaoh and Haman and all their hosts were Men of sin.

(Koran 28:38)
...therefore, O haman! light me a klin to bake bricks
out of clay, and build me a loftly palace...

Here the man and de Koran clearly imply dat Haman and de Pharaoh exist at de same time and place. But History tells we odderwise. The Pharaoh lived during the time of Moses and Haman served as a minister of Ahasuerus (Xerxes I). The Koranic verse in this case contains not only an error in location, but also an error of time as well (1,000 years).

Once again the Koran proves to us that Mohammed had no real knowledge of History, is either dat or de angels misguided him?

Offline sammy

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 09:32:14 PM »
fella, my goal is not to disprove anything.  You trying to prove something to me!

Mohammed had a habit of writing scripture to suit his actions..like the time he sent his men to rob travellers.  Justifyinmg his actions after the fact.  run by yuh frens dem to correct me, Mohammed was told by an angel to have his son (adopted) to divorce his wife so he could marry her!

Suras in the Quran does convientently pop up so  Mohammed can justify his actions. e.g, when he wanted his adopted son's wife, he suddenly get a revelation from Allah declaring it right to take another man's wife. When he wanted to stop his wives from quarreling or to accept more wives, he got a quick revelation for that too.  If yuh know de history most ah dem revelations come AFTER he do he do!

Also, throughout the Koran, the history is all wrong...that is the chain of events not chronological at all.

Yuh like to sayu how scientific the Koran is, Like when He say Allah created mountains to stop the earthquakes?

Or when he wrote the moon was a light like the sun?  Or maybe when he talk about the stars and say they were darts to throw at demons?

Or when Mohammed say de sun does set in a muddy pool? Or what about de ants and dem that did talk to Solomon?

Or when he talk about the Pyramids and dem?

Haman - A minister of the Pharoah?
(Koran 28:8)
...For Pharaoh and Haman and all their hosts were Men of sin.

(Koran 28:38)
...therefore, O haman! light me a klin to bake bricks
out of clay, and build me a loftly palace...

Here the man and de Koran clearly imply dat Haman and de Pharaoh exist at de same time and place. But History tells we odderwise. The Pharaoh lived during the time of Moses and Haman served as a minister of Ahasuerus (Xerxes I). The Koranic verse in this case contains not only an error in location, but also an error of time as well (1,000 years).

Once again the Koran proves to us that Mohammed had no real knowledge of History, is either dat or de angels misguided him?



hey, if u have questions/ concerns, why not consider joining an islamic site and debate/chat with some muslims who may be more knowledgable on the topics that you've raised?

However, if u dont want to believe u will never really accept any response posted by JC or any other user. So if u on that scene its just fruitless arguing with you. You will be just be firing ridiculous statements taken out of context or not even a part of islam, and we will have to spend all of our time trying to answer you like a contest or a game.

Here's an example, you quoted things from the Quran that you dont agree with scientifically, how about quoting some things that have been proven? - like the big bang theory, or how about the different stages in fetus development, or maybe the invisible barrier stopping salt and fresh water from mixing?

You talk about the ants that spoke to solomon, if everything was clear cut, then there would be no purpose for faith. A part of islam is to believe in the unseen or miracles.

Concerning adoption in islam, a person may adopt or raise a child who is not theirs, however, this child is a brother/sister in islam to them and not a son/daughter.
more on this here: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544668



I dont read too much on this section, but do u believe in God at all, and if u dont can u prove to me that there isnt one? - thanks.






for info: This extract was taken from a PBS documentry on Muhammad after 911.
Muhammad and women


Following the Battle of Uhud (625), in which scores of male combatants died leaving unprotected widows and children, Muhammad and the Qur'an decreed that, in order to protect the orphans of such families, men might take up to four wives. The permission itself is surrounded with language that discourages the very thing it permits, saying that unless a man can treat several wives equally, he should never enter into multiple marriages. The usual supposition in the modern monogamous West-that Islam institutionally encourages lustful arrangements-is rejected by Muslims themselves as an ill-informed stereotype. At the same time, Muslim feminists point out that in various cultures at different economic strata the laws of polygamy have frequently operated to the clear detriment of women. Polygamy is an uncommon occurrence in the modern Muslim world.

Today, Islamic legal and social systems around the world approach and fall short of women's rights by varying degrees. Muslims themselves generally view Islam as progressive in these matters. Many Muslim feminists hold the view that the problems presently hindering Muslim women are those that hinder women of all backgrounds worldwide- oppressive cultural practices, poverty, illiteracy, political repression and patriarchy. There is a strong, healthy critique of gender oppression among Muslim feminist authors and activists worldwide.

It would be anachronistic to claim that Muhammad was a feminist in our modern sense. Yet the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and he opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights


http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml
"Giving away something in charity does not cause any decrease in a person's wealth, but increases it instead. The person who adopt humility for the sake of Allah is exalted in ranks by Him".
(Muslim)

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 10:33:28 PM »
Sammy, I never took issue with saving widows or orphans,  and if you ever read my posts you ill see where I have addressed that so-called Big Bag theory of the Koran, the fetus etc.  Becasue i posted inaccuracies etc.  You take offense, yet you will use the same nonsense to prove the Koran's scientific accuracy?  Steups.  SHow me anywhere that science has acknowledged the scientific accuracy of the Koran, and especially about fetal development, Big Bang etc.  I will show you where that is not the case, and Mohammed's descriptions of the heavens is surprisingly childish! 


But since you have not read my responses to JC's claims. let me humor you here as I have some time:

1.  The embryology discussed in de Koran does follow Greek knowledge of embryology prevalent at de time. The Koran refers to nutfah, which translates as "semen" and does not refer to both sperm and eggs!!  In fact mohammed and science at the time did not know about female eggs so they only mentioned sperm which was visible! 

Sura 86:6 says dat the fluid issues from between de loins an ribs, not, as we know today, from the testicles. This reflects a mistaken view of Hippocrates, common in the 5th century, that semen comes from all the fluid of the body and passes through the kidneys on the way to the penis.

 Sura 23:12-14 says God created man from "wet earth, den placed him as ah drop ah sperm (nutfah) in ah safe lodging; then We made de sperm into ah clot ah congealed blood (alaqa); then out of dat clot We made a (fetus) lump (mudghah), then We made out of dat lump bones and clothed de bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature." This account directly follows the four stages described by the Greek physician Galen, writing around 150 AD. The accuracies and inaccuracies both reflect Greek ideas of the time.

2.  Jes for yuh edification, one of Mohammed's companions was de doctor Harith Ibn Kalada, who studied at the school of Jundishapur in Persia. He would have been well acquainted with the teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates, and Galen.

3.  De Koran also describe humans as coming from de earth (11:61), clay (15:26), mud (23:12), dust (30:20), water (25:54), and nothing (19:67). Anyone looking for a passage to rationalize to a particular view has no shortage of options.   Choose which is correct or maybe is all of the above or a combination of some!


As for his adoption, whether is his son or brother he made the man divorce he wife because he wanted her!  That is in the Hadiths and Mohammed did marry her..whats your issue with THAT fact?

And what invisible barrier stopping fresh water from mixing with salt water?  yuh ever heard of brackish water?  Or estuaries? 

I dont believe in ANY God, if you do can you prove to me that he/she/it exists  thanks!

To address the so called accuracy of the Big bang theory check this:

De universe did not begin as a gas, if current Big Bang science is correck, de universe started  began before any matter of any kind existedit ewas pure energy. It took several moments for any matter to form, and then it was a plasma, not ah gas. Gases only came later, after de  plasma cool down and yet gasses were still not the only constituent....much ah de mass-energy at even that point, as before, was composed ah electromagnetic radiation oir LIGHT! The fact that de Koran fail tuh mention any of dis or any other crucial scientific information is precisely why its claim to "scientific accuracy" is to be dismissed. It is making vague metaphysical statements, and that is not science.

Now in all fairness the Koranic passage does not say Gas eh, it SAY SMOKE! is de muslims who want to claim scientific accuracy and others like you and JC etc. dat say is gas or refers to gas...lol 

De Arabic word used is dukhan, "smoke." TDey does claim that dis is a "perfect analogy" for gas and particles in suspension, and the gasses being hot.

Is it?

Not really. Smoke make up ah ash, predominantly carbon, and is produced from burning (oxidation), not plasma condensation.

Smoke doh look nutten like heated hydrogen or helium, it doh share de same elemental mass or other properties, and doh even possess many of the general properties of ah gas.

Thus, is DE wrong word.  Mohammed could not lack the vocabulary to simply say "hot air" or "hot gases expanding in an empty space" or anything dat even remotely relevant to de truth. Instead, he say SMOKE!

If yuh can change de meaning of ah word at will, and convert ah word for "carbon-based ash" into "two basic gases," then you can change the meaning of any word in any book to prove any theory you want.  see dat?

DAT MY FREN IS FAR FROM BEIN SCIENTIFIC IN FACT IT IS DE VERY ANTITHESIS AH SCIENCE!!!


Then there is this:

    [41:9] Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the Alam" (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

    [41:10] He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four 'days' were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).

    [41:11] Then He istaw (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly."

    [41:12] Then He completed seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

6 days Allah took to create the world, jes like Genesis...but check de sequence!

he break it up into 3 seriesd ah 2 days each..right/  ok check dis...44:11 says the heavens was still smoke..STILL smoke..how can dat be when de earth already exists???  How dat is scientific proof of de Big bang? 

De earth had to exist while the heaven was smoke, or else dis claim of de koran would make no sense ah tall!!  So now we see the original claim fall flat!: De Koran does not say "that the universe originated" from smoke, certainly not in any way that matches the scientific theory dat de the universe was once in a gaseous state, since here the "gaseous state" coexists with a fully-formed Earth. DAt is scientifically impossible: the elements of which planets are composed did not exist until all de gasses condensed into stars, an de stars exploded and recondensed over several cycles, generating de heavy elements dat eventually condensed into planets around new stars.

Verse 41:11 fail miserably tuh fit any scientific theory about de origins of the cosmos: the earth long post-dated the "gaseous" state of the universe that Muslim Fundamentalists want the word "smoke" to refer to.

Yuh want more?

It dpes get worse and worse, but if yuh want it take it:

Verse 41:12 say in no uncertain terms dar de lasrt 2 days of the six days ah creation, since it says in dese 2 days creation was "completed," yet it is only then that stars, the "lamps," adorn the sky?

What?  aND YOU AND OTHERSD CLAIM DAT IS SCIENCE? AND ACCURATE SCIENCE TOO?  sTEUPS!  dIS completely reverses scientific reality: earth could not possibly have existed before stars adorned the sky!!!  LOL  no planet could exist before the stars!  NONE!!!

We know that as a matter of firmly-established fact: for only stars can produce the heavy elements of which planets like the earth are made!

 Yet de Koram says with conviction and no uncertainty, without a doubt.  dat stars appear in de heavens AFTER the earth!

ASny book dat says dat nonsense is simply wrong! And cannot be inspired by a God who knows EVERYTHING and ANYTHING!

It appears to ME dat the Kora is a great piece of literature, like Shakesperae etc. and anyone who feels dat it comes from a God is kidding demselves, becasue dat Gosd would know what scientists know at the VERY LEAST!

One more thing, all thru Persia and greece they used to talk about 7 heaves related to the KNOWN seven planets at the time,... Uranus, Pluto, asteroid belt, neptune were unknown at the time!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 12:04:03 AM by Trinity Cross »

Offline sammy

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 04:49:53 AM »
you're trying to use science to disprove the quran, the same science that changes when new theories come out? TC, science itself cant really prove the validity of science.

The Quran is constant and so is my faith.
Can u honestly save u believe in the scientific facts as it is now, or when it changes you will go with what ever they say? DOnt you think that is taking the easy way out, blowing whichever way the winds goes?

Whenever you believe the validity of science then that is your faith or religion or God. To believe in something 
is to have faith in it, so when a new theory comes out, do u lose faith in your "religion
" ?

Let me categorically state that I dont have a problem with Muhammad (saw) legally marrying the ex-wife of his brother in islam ie the boy he raised. This marriage was clearly done to validate the legality of the practice in islam.
Just because you or the west may not align itself with this doesn't mean it is wrong.
Since you dont believe in God, how come u are judging the morality of this practice? What are u basing your moral basis on? BTW, Is this practice illegal in T&T or the USA?




You say u dont believe in God, how come? Something must have push you to that line of thought, or u woke up one day and just decided to go that way?

"Giving away something in charity does not cause any decrease in a person's wealth, but increases it instead. The person who adopt humility for the sake of Allah is exalted in ranks by Him".
(Muslim)

truetrini

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 08:33:20 AM »
you're trying to use science to disprove the quran, the same science that changes when new theories come out? TC, science itself cant really prove the validity of science.

The Quran is constant and so is my faith.
Can u honestly save u believe in the scientific facts as it is now, or when it changes you will go with what ever they say? DOnt you think that is taking the easy way out, blowing whichever way the winds goes?

Whenever you believe the validity of science then that is your faith or religion or God. To believe in something 
is to have faith in it, so when a new theory comes out, do u lose faith in your "religion
" ?

Let me categorically state that I dont have a problem with Muhammad (saw) legally marrying the ex-wife of his brother in islam ie the boy he raised. This marriage was clearly done to validate the legality of the practice in islam.
Just because you or the west may not align itself with this doesn't mean it is wrong.
Since you dont believe in God, how come u are judging the morality of this practice? What are u basing your moral basis on? BTW, Is this practice illegal in T&T or the USA?




You say u dont believe in God, how come? Something must have push you to that line of thought, or u woke up one day and just decided to go that way?



Fella, take win.  It was AFTER he had amrried the woman that he made the new rules.  There is something inherently wrong with making a man divorce his wife becuae YOU want her and then YOU marry her to avoid the implications and old talk.  A man who takes a child and raises him is a father to that child.  In Islam he is a brother so it justifies the fact that Islam use to and still allows a man to marry his brother wife or x-wife. That give legitimacy,since is not his adopted son jes he brother.

As for science, yuh ask for my reasons, I gave it yuh come with cock and bull about how science changes.  Steups.

good for you and your beliefs. it is NOT my place to mess with your beliefs, dey is yours, why allyuh messing with mine?

Morality have nutten to do with God, it is societal.  The Koran is constant, becuase the man who wrote it dead.

Science evolves and is subject to strict peer review.  Review the Koran and dey want to kill you, call you all kinda names etc.

There is nutten that I posted above to show Mohammed was wrong about embrology AND was never addressing The Big Bang, that can be construed as false science..NUTTEN!  in fact, it you who say the Koran address the big bang...now yuh telling me that the Big bang wrong?  or may be wrong?  See the implications of your statement?

Keep your faith but don't push rubbish down my throat to PROVE scientific accuracy from a Book dat had nutten to do with science, and dat has absolutely no scientific validity!

I have a serious problem with some of the adherents of yuh religion though.

God is Great they proclaim as they strap bombs on their bodies and kill themselves and innocents.

If God is so GREAT, why not let him fight his own battles? 

« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 08:38:32 AM by Trinity Cross »

Offline ribbit

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Re: Death penalty for gays?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 11:00:55 AM »
TC, i admire your attempts to enlighten a bunch of dummies. thing is they all living in a society that is the product of science and is idiot-proof enough to tolerate the inherently anti-scientific ignorance of religion. they could read their religious text and pretend that they devotely believe in it and when they sick, go to the hospital and get the best care that science provides. they will never experience a true test of their so-called faith knowing that they always have the safety net of science.