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Offline elan

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Chinese in T&T
« on: December 21, 2009, 09:49:31 PM »
Have any of you seen this? What do you think? Do you think that such a situation should be laid squarely at the feet of the Prime Minister?

Story Here

Photos Here
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 10:32:52 PM »
Have any of you seen this? What do you think? Do you think that such a situation should be laid squarely at the feet of the Prime Minister?

Story Here

Photos Here

Absolutely.

Along with the implosion of the global economy, the problems in Liverpool defense this season... and the two feet ah snow I had to shovel from mih driveway this weekend.

While we at it leh we blame him fuh dis too...

December 21, 2009
Uneasy Engagement

China’s Export of Labor Faces Scorn




By EDWARD WONG
TRUNG SON, Vietnam — It seemed as if this village in northern Vietnam had struck gold when a Chinese and a Japanese company arrived to jointly build a coal-fired power plant. Thousands of jobs would start flowing in, or so the residents hoped.

Four years later, the Haiphong Thermal Power Plant is nearing completion. But only a few hundred Vietnamese ever got jobs. Most of the workers were Chinese, about 1,500 at the peak. Hundreds of them are still here, toiling by day on the dusty construction site and cloistered at night in dingy dormitories.

“The Chinese workers overwhelm the Vietnamese workers here,” said Nguyen Thai Bang, 29, a Vietnamese electrician.

China, famous for its export of cheap goods, is increasingly known for shipping out cheap labor. These global migrants often work in factories or on Chinese-run construction and engineering projects, though the range of jobs is astonishing: from planting flowers in the Netherlands to doing secretarial tasks in Singapore to herding cows in Mongolia — even delivering newspapers in the Middle East.

But a backlash against them has grown. Across Asia and Africa, episodes of protest and violence against Chinese workers have flared. Vietnam and India are among the nations that have moved to impose new labor rules for foreign companies and restrict the number of Chinese workers allowed to enter, straining relations with Beijing.

In Vietnam, dissidents and intellectuals are using the issue of Chinese labor to challenge the ruling Communist Party. A lawyer sued Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung over his approval of a Chinese bauxite mining project, and the National Assembly is questioning top officials over Chinese contracts, unusual moves in this authoritarian state.

Chinese workers continue to follow China’s state-owned construction companies as they win bids abroad to build power plants, factories, railroads, highways, subway lines and stadiums. From January to October 2009, Chinese companies completed $58 billion of projects, a 33 percent increase over the same period in 2008, according to the Chinese Ministry of Commerce.

From Angola to Uzbekistan, Iran to Indonesia, some 740,000 Chinese workers were abroad at the end of 2008, with 58 percent sent out last year alone, the Commerce Ministry said. The number going abroad this year is on track to roughly match that rate. The workers are hired in China, either directly by Chinese enterprises or by Chinese labor agencies that place the workers; there are 500 operational licensed agencies and many illegal ones.

Chinese executives say that Chinese workers are not always less expensive, but that they tend to be more skilled and easier to manage than local workers. “Whether you’re talking about the social benefits or economic benefits to the countries receiving the workers, the countries have had very good things to say about the Chinese workers and their skills,” said Diao Chunhe, director of the China International Contractors Association, a government organization in Beijing.

But in some countries, local residents accuse the Chinese of stealing jobs, staying on illegally and isolating themselves by building bubble worlds that replicate life in China.

“There are entire Chinese villages now,” said Pham Chi Lan, former executive vice president of the Vietnam Chamber of Commerce and Industry. “We’ve never seen such a practice on projects done by companies from other countries.”

At this construction site northeast of the port city of Haiphong, an entire Chinese world has sprung up: four walled dormitory compounds, restaurants with Chinese signs advertising dumplings and fried rice, currency exchanges, so-called massage parlors — even a sign on the site itself that says “Guangxi Road,” referring to the province that most of the workers call home.

One night, eight workers in blue uniforms sat in a cramped restaurant that had been opened by a man from Guangxi at the request of the project’s main subcontractor, Guangxi Power Construction Company. Their faces were flushed from drinking Chinese rice wine. “I was sent here, and I’m fulfilling my patriotic duty,” said Lin Dengji, 52.

Such scenes can set off anxieties in Vietnam, which prides itself on resisting Chinese domination, starting with its break from Chinese rule in the 10th century. The countries fought a border war in 1979 and are still engaged in a sovereignty dispute in the South China Sea.

Vietnamese are all too aware of the economic juggernaut to their north. Vietnam had a $10 billion trade deficit with China last year. In July, a senior official in Vietnam’s Ministry of Public Security said that 35,000 Chinese workers were in Vietnam, according to Tuoi Tre, a progressive newspaper. The announcement shocked many Vietnamese.

“The Chinese economic presence in Vietnam is deeper, more far-reaching and progressing faster than people realize,” said Le Dang Doanh, an economist in Hanoi who advised the preceding prime minister.

Conflict has broken out between Vietnamese and Chinese laborers. In Thanh Hoa Province in June, a drunk Chinese worker from a cement plant traded blows with the husband of a Vietnamese shopkeeper. The Chinese man then returned with 200 co-workers, igniting a brawl, according to Vietnamese news reports.

One reason for the tensions, economists say, is that there are plenty of unemployed or underemployed people in this country of 87 million. Vietnam itself exports cheap labor; a half-million Vietnamese are working abroad, according to a newspaper published by the Vietnam General Confederation of Labor.

Populist anger erupted this year over a contract given by the Vietnamese government to the Aluminum Corporation of China to mine bauxite, one of Vietnam’s most valuable natural resources, using Chinese workers. Dissidents, intellectuals and environmental advocates protested. Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, the 98-year-old retired military leader, wrote three open letters criticizing the Chinese presence to Vietnamese party leaders.

No other government in the world so closely resembles that of China as Vietnam’s, from the structure of the Communist Party to economic policies and media controls. Vietnamese leaders make great efforts to ensure that China-Vietnam relations appear smooth. So over the summer, the central government shut down critical blogs, detained dissidents and ordered Vietnamese newspapers to cease reporting on Chinese labor and the bauxite issue.

But in a nod to public pressure, the government also tightened visa and work permit requirements for Chinese and deported 182 Chinese laborers from a cement plant in June, saying they were working illegally.

Vietnam generally bans the import of unskilled workers from abroad and requires foreign contractors to hire its citizens to do civil works, though that rule is sometimes violated by Chinese companies — bribes can persuade officials to look the other way, Chinese executives say.

At the Haiphong power plant, the Vietnamese company that owns the project grew anxious this year about the slow pace of work. It sided with the Chinese managers in pushing government officials to allow the import of more unskilled workers.

The Chinese here are sequestered in ramshackle dorm rooms and segregated by profession: welders and electricians and crane operators.

A poem written on a wooden door testifies to the rootless nature of their lives: “We’re all people floating around in the world. We meet each other, but we never really get to know each other.”

Xiyun Yang contributed reporting from Beijing, and Sun Huan contributed research from Beijing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/world/asia/21china.html?ref=asia
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 10:40:01 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 10:43:47 PM »
allya betta start learnin chineez oui

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-chinese
 ;D
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline elan

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 12:53:35 AM »
Have any of you seen this? What do you think? Do you think that such a situation should be laid squarely at the feet of the Prime Minister?

Story Here

Photos Here

Absolutely.

Along with the implosion of the global economy, the problems in Liverpool defense this season... and the two feet ah snow I had to shovel from mih driveway this weekend.

While we at it leh we blame him fuh dis too...




I reading some of the replies to the photos and report. I does wonder sometimes if some people does think.

It however real sad.
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truetrini

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 06:49:32 AM »
If these were workers from T&T, would the contractor have been allowed to put them up in such squalid environs?

If these were T&T workers lets say in London, would we have made a huge outcry over their conditions?

It is the responsibility of the Government (or some arm) to ensure that our country adheres to rules of common decency.  That sort of thing has no palce in a country struggling to obtain Vision 20/20

Manning's next move may be to build a bust of himself somewhere in San fernando.

He is doing much to destroy the P.N.M and he should resign NOW!

Offline JDB

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 07:28:39 AM »
If these were workers from T&T, would the contractor have been allowed to put them up in such squalid environs?

If these were T&T workers lets say in London, would we have made a huge outcry over their conditions?

It is the responsibility of the Government (or some arm) to ensure that our country adheres to rules of common decency.  That sort of thing has no palce in a country struggling to obtain Vision 20/20

Manning's next move may be to build a bust of himself somewhere in San fernando.

He is doing much to destroy the P.N.M and he should resign NOW!

Can't see the photos as I am not on facebook but based on the article I could not agree more.

What is the difference between hiring a contractor that is abusing employees and abusing the  employees yourself? Wouldn’t a vision 2020 government audit their contractors so that they don’t have employees suffering like they in 1920?

This Gov’t is way too concerned with what looks good and sounds good as opposed to what actually is good. Build a whole set of buildings and works projects on the cheap so yuh could rock back and proclaim progress.

Meanwhile the social structure being eroded and the government turns a blind eye.


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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 09:29:38 AM »
If these were workers from T&T, would the contractor have been allowed to put them up in such squalid environs?

If these were T&T workers lets say in London, would we have made a huge outcry over their conditions?

It is the responsibility of the Government (or some arm) to ensure that our country adheres to rules of common decency.  That sort of thing has no palce in a country struggling to obtain Vision 20/20

Manning's next move may be to build a bust of himself somewhere in San fernando.

He is doing much to destroy the P.N.M and he should resign NOW!
The labour laws of Trinidad and Tobago apply to all employers and workers. It was the employer who mistreated these workers. It was the government's responsibility to ensure that the contractor was in compliance with the laws of T&T.   

Offline Bakes

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 09:32:45 AM »
If these were workers from T&T, would the contractor have been allowed to put them up in such squalid environs?

If these were T&T workers lets say in London, would we have made a huge outcry over their conditions?

It is the responsibility of the Government (or some arm) to ensure that our country adheres to rules of common decency.  That sort of thing has no palce in a country struggling to obtain Vision 20/20

Manning's next move may be to build a bust of himself somewhere in San fernando.

He is doing much to destroy the P.N.M and he should resign NOW!

Please be more specific.  What squalid about the conditions?  what is commonly indecent about the government's stance?

Offline Bakes

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 09:40:43 AM »
Can't see the photos as I am not on facebook but based on the article I could not agree more.

What is the difference between hiring a contractor that is abusing employees and abusing the  employees yourself? Wouldn’t a vision 2020 government audit their contractors so that they don’t have employees suffering like they in 1920?

This Gov’t is way too concerned with what looks good and sounds good as opposed to what actually is good. Build a whole set of buildings and works projects on the cheap so yuh could rock back and proclaim progress.

Meanwhile the social structure being eroded and the government turns a blind eye.




In an ideal world the government would have inspectors visiting these labor camps and making sure that they are in compliance with at least the minimum standards... same would apply to the terms of employment.  Trinidad however is still a growing Republic, a "developing nation" and we are taking baby steps in that direction.  Look is only last year they start digitizing driving records and upgrading passports and birth certificates.  More than once I had to break out my birth certificate and was shame tuh pull out this long ass paper folded ten ways like Japanese Origami

Bottomline is that there are many things broken in Trinidad and everybody wants everything fixed yesterday.  Not very realistic.  A curious aside to this is that half ah de Westmoorings crowd on that Facebook page cussing Manning and taking food to dem chinese is de same set dah go turn up dey nose and pass ah vagrant straight... or when de mentally ill ones dart into traffic and get hit, say "it good fuh dem, dey look fuh dat"... as was the comments on the Guardian did some months ago.

Offline Daft Trini

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 11:19:21 AM »
These current conditions better than the ones they had in Bejing...

could ah use a few ah them in meh Taiwanese factories or a few ah dem to dig meh out ah all de snow.... :beermug:

Offline JDB

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 05:57:26 AM »

In an ideal world the government would have inspectors visiting these labor camps and making sure that they are in compliance with at least the minimum standards... same would apply to the terms of employment.  Trinidad however is still a growing Republic, a "developing nation" and we are taking baby steps in that direction.  Look is only last year they start digitizing driving records and upgrading passports and birth certificates.  More than once I had to break out my birth certificate and was shame tuh pull out this long ass paper folded ten ways like Japanese Origami

Bottomline is that there are many things broken in Trinidad and everybody wants everything fixed yesterday.  Not very realistic.  A curious aside to this is that half ah de Westmoorings crowd on that Facebook page cussing Manning and taking food to dem chinese is de same set dah go turn up dey nose and pass ah vagrant straight... or when de mentally ill ones dart into traffic and get hit, say "it good fuh dem, dey look fuh dat"... as was the comments on the Guardian did some months ago.

I wouldn't say that the government's involvement is as passive as "this is just another problem that we can't get to as yet". The government has played an active role in bringing this situation into TnT. We have always used foreign contractors and the way it would work is that the contractors bring their foremen and technical specialists but use local labour. It made sense because these contractors from US or UK would be wasting money to bring in labourers from those countries. However it is no secret to the government why these Chinese contractors are getting these bids. The government can't claim to be unaware that they have lower "overhead" because they pay on a wage scale and subject their workers to conditions that are way below par for TnT. The government itself would not directly treat workers that way yet they happy to use contractors as their proxy.

You can't class this as another thing that is broken that the government can't fix because this is something that the government willfully brought into TnT. Which is fine if they want to use sweatshop labour to build the country but it just proves that the 2020 talk is bullshit (as if we didn't already know) and they have to be wholly responsible for the consequences.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2009, 07:24:39 PM »
JDB lemmih tell yuh something... three yrs ago I stopped by the Santa Rosa crossings to look at their models because I was interested at the time in buying one.  I spoke to the project manager who is Filipino and we actually had a very nice 30-minute or so tour/conversation.  Among other things, I asked him about his experience with the Trini workers.  He said that it was fine, except for the "liming" mentality.  When people have million-dollar projects and sensitive timelines they eh go have time tuh put up with we bullshit vaille-que-vaille mentality.  This is why you see so many construction jobs going to foreigners.  Say nothing of the fact that too many people no longer interested in putting in a hard days work... not where manual labor and hot sun factoring.

As for the gist of your response, you misread me.  I'm not saying that government can't get to this as yet, I'm saying that it is unrealistic to blame the government for being unaware of the situation beforehand... which is implicit from the "blame Manning" argument.  He should have somehow seen this, therefore he is responsible.  Now that government is aware of the problems, let's see the response... if it is lagging THEN can you realistically assign blame.

I'm not sure if you've had chance to check out the pictures (and comments) on Facebook, but judging from the pics (that's all I have to go on for now) the actual conditions of the camp is not that bad.  I would even say that except for the mould in the shower area there really isn't anything to complain about.  Conditions are cramped it's true, but these are temporary hovels meant to house the workers... they appear no more cramped than the typical freshman dorm.  I don't know if the company is supposed to feed them as well, so can't really comment on the pics alleging that their food is rotten.  There is also a picture of the toilet area... a series of holes in the floor.  I'm sure to many Trinis that appears sub-standard, but such "holes in the floor" is actually what many in asia and the middle east use.  They don't sit to do their business, they squat.

Another thing, many of these contracting firms are actually owned by the chinese gov't and I imagine that the wages paid mark an increase over what the typical worker would otherwise earn... or else why would they sign up?  Unless they're alleging that they were promised one thing then offered another.  I would agree however, that whatever the local labor laws are then those should apply, and this should be made aware to the winning bidder before his workers set sail.

But again, I don't even know if that is common practice already in TnT... if it isn't then it would take time for us to get up to these first wolrdl standards.

Offline Sam

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Re: Chinese in T&T
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 08:55:27 AM »
Shamless and de Govt not doing shit about it...
Faster than a speeding pittbull
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