T&T Coast Guard new vessels

[Bakes]

Not to be a wet blanket... but which manufacturer in their right mind will chance entering a contract with TnT when the government has shown it has no respect for contractual obligations... and is presently faced with litigation for breach of contract for that matter?  Just a thought.  Might be a while before we get them ships.

[fishs]

Not to be a wet blanket... but which manufacturer in their right mind will chance entering a contract with TnT when the government has shown it has no respect for contractual obligations... and is presently faced with litigation for breach of contract for that matter?  Just a thought.  Might be a while before we get them ships.

Did not BAA violate the original terms of agreement by exceeding the schedule and by costs overruns?
Nobody would terminate a contract without cause.
In fact I'm surprised the government is not looking for liquidated damages.

[Bakes]

Did not BAA violate the original terms of agreement by exceeding the schedule and by costs overruns?
Nobody would terminate a contract without cause.
In fact I'm surprised the government is not looking for liquidated damages.

In any contract, where there is a breach the non-breaching party is entitled to  a range of options including damages (not just "liquidated" damages).  The non-breacher can demand performance, sue for breach, give the breacher an opportunity to cure... etc.

In the case of BAE, the Manning administration agreed to give them an opportunity to cure the breach by delivering after the contracted date of delivery.  In exchange for the extension of time, BAE in return promised to throw in free equipment upgrades and free additional training (beyond what was contracted for).  This exchange of promises created a modification of the old contract and the modified contract takes precedent over the original contract.  All rights and obligations under the old contract are extinguished by the new... so by agreeing to the modification, the government of TnT (whether PNM or PP) can no longer complain about the delays/breach of the original contract.

This modified contract was breached by the PP government when they chose to unilaterally rescind the extension granted by the PNM government... hence breaching the new contract.  You are right, nobody would terminate a contract without cause... which is why it is so baffling that the PP government did so within hours of being sworn in.

[fishs]

Did not BAA violate the original terms of agreement by exceeding the schedule and by costs overruns?
Nobody would terminate a contract without cause.
In fact I'm surprised the government is not looking for liquidated damages.

In any contract, where there is a breach the non-breaching party is entitle to damages (not just "liquidated" damages).  In a contract for the sale of goods (as opposed to a contract to sell land, to perform personal service, labor contracts etc. etc.), damages are just one option.  The non-breacher can demand performance, sue for breach, give the breacher an opportunity to cure... etc.

In the case of BAE, there was a contract for the manufacture and sale of ships.  The Manning administration agreed to give them an opportunity to cure the breach by delivering after the contracted date of delivery.  In exchange for the extension of time, BAE in return promised to throw in free equipment upgrades and free additional training (beyond what was contracted for).  This exchange of promises created a modification of the old contract and the modified contract takes precedent over the original contract.  All rights and obligations under the old contract are extinguished by the new... so by agreeing to the modification, the government of TnT (whether PNM or PP) can no longer complain about the delays/breach of the original contract.

This modified contract was breached by the PP government when they chose to unilaterally rescind the extension granted by the PNM government... hence breaching the new contract.

I hear all you say but did not they also come back to PP for a further extension after the sea trials went wrong?
I think you judge to early.
Lets see how the case unfolds, I hold my own views on this matter until then.

[Bakes]

I hear all you say but did not they also come back to PP for a further extension after the sea trials went wrong?
I think you judge to early.
Lets see how the case unfolds, I hold my own views on this matter until then.

I modified my post as you were responding... see above.  The PP government announced to BAE that they were "cancelling" the contract literally within a day or so of taking office.  There was no "sea trials" or requests for extensions after May 18th or whatever date the PP was sworn in.  Even if BAE came with requests for an extension... requests for more time is not the same as a breach.  The government in that case would have had to deny them the extension and then wait for the date of performance to pass before "cancelling".

As for me judging too early, you can think what you like... I'm just adding my perspective based on my understanding of the law, which, no offense, I think I'm more familiar with than you are.  Indeed we all have to wait to see how it unfolds, and indeed you are entitled to your own views on the matter.

[fishs]

I hear all you say but did not they also come back to PP for a further extension after the sea trials went wrong?
I think you judge to early.
Lets see how the case unfolds, I hold my own views on this matter until then.

I modified my post as you were responding... see above.  The PP government announced to BAE that they were "cancelling" the contract literally within a day or so of taking office.  There was no "sea trials" or requests for extensions after May 18th or whatever date the PP was sworn in.  Even if BAE came with requests for an extension... requests for more time is not the same as a breach.  The government in that case would have had to deny them the extension and then wait for the date of performance to pass before "cancelling".

As for me judging too early, you can think what you like... I'm just adding my perspective based on my understanding of the law, which, no offense, I think I'm more familiar with than you are.  Indeed we all have to wait to see how it unfolds, and indeed you are entitled to your own views on the matter.

Fair enough.
Cheers

[Football supporter]

Whatever the legalities, I believe PP weakened themselves immediately by cancelling the boats, dumping the blimp and dismantling the intelligence services. I have no problem if something better was put in place, but these just seemed to be knee jerk anti PNM reactions and in my view made Kamla look petty.

We still have had no real initiatives to replace all of the above. This leaves people like Hines free to criticise the lack of crime plan, and worse, the extinguishing of existing long term programmes. Whatever our view of OPV's at least the T&T govt could prove to countries like USA that they take their borders controls and the war against drug smugglers seriously.

Crime plans and hardware purchases such as ships are long term exercises. I don't see any on the horizon.

[Bakes]

Precisely FS... it was knee-jerk, spiteful and definitely political.  Even if they had legitimate concerns about the contract, they have put the country into a serious bind by cancelling because the financial penalty would be steep.  If memory serves correct this is an ₤800 million contract... I'm scared to think what the financial ramifications of breach would be.  All this separate from the discussion of not having a policy in place and its effect on crime in TnT.

[Brownsugar]

There was talk some months ago that BAE was taking some kind of court action against the Government.  The AG kinda stifled the talk saying that it wasn't true and the media didn't seem to follow up on it.....I'm thinking though that if BAE did take court action we would have definitely heard more about it....

I keep meaning to try and find the initial article just to clarify for my own sake really what the chatter was about.....eh have de time though.....

[truetrini]

Truth be told, 3 OPV's were over the top.  We could have used one and purchase some fast patrol boats to bolster the fleet and give us more numbers in terms of vessels on the water at the same time. 

The T&T CG hardly has the man power to handle 3 OPV's. The cost of operating them and the maintenance was also prohibitive.

[Tallman]

BAE Systems sells patrol vessels to Brazil
BBC

BAE Systems has signed a deal with the Brazilian Navy to supply it with three patrol vessels. The contract is worth £133m.

The ocean patrol vessels are already built, having been ordered by the government of Trinidad and Tobago in a contract which was terminated in 2010.

Two of the boats were constructed on the Clyde and the other at Portsmouth.

The new agreement with Brazil will allow vessels of the same class to be made under licence there.

Andrew Davies, the managing director of BAE Systems Maritime business, said: "This is a significant step forward in our relationship with Brazil.

"The Ocean Patrol Vessels are highly capable ships and I am sure they will be a tremendous asset to the Brazilian Navy."

The boats are capable of speeds in excess of 25 knots and weigh 2,200 tonnes fully loaded.

They are armed with a 30mm cannon and two 25mm guns, and are equipped with a helicopter flight deck and a rigid inflatable boat.

[elan]

Manning is ah waste ah time.

[weary1969]

Manning is ah waste ah time.

TOTAL WASTE

[Bakes]

BAE Systems sells patrol vessels to Brazil
BBC

BAE Systems has signed a deal with the Brazilian Navy to supply it with three patrol vessels. The contract is worth £133m.

The ocean patrol vessels are already built, having been ordered by the government of Trinidad and Tobago in a contract which was terminated in 2010.

I fully expect the PP government to try and settle out of court now.  The people of TnT will "only" have to fork over £17m, and the government will try to argue that they saved the country £133m of PNM waste.  Of course they unnecessarily cost the country £17m by breaching without cause... but as with everything else they will be boldface in trying to sweep this under the rug and in dismissing any questions/criticism a politics by the PNM.

[mukumsplau]

shame on the  brazilian navy..buying defective ships and the like...

[weary1969]

shame on the  brazilian navy..buying defective ships and the like...

ENTTTT dey need a wise govt like d 1 we have in TNT.

[Jah Gol]

shame on the  brazilian navy..buying defective ships and the like...

[Bitter]

China to sell long range border patrol vessel to TT
...the vessel will arrive in shortest possible time, discloses Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar

By Multimedia Desk
Story Created: Feb 25, 2014 at 9:57 AM ECT
Story Updated: Feb 25, 2014 at 10:17 AM ECT
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/China-to-provide-long-range-border-patrol-vessel-to-TT-247051311.html

THE Office of the Prime Minister disclosed today that China has agreed to deliver a Long Range Vessel to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard, to increase maritime border security and fights arms and drug smuggling. The vessel will arrive in the shortest possible time, and follows a request of China's Premier Li Keqiang by Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar who is currently on an official State visit to China. The following is the statement of the Office of the Prime Minister -

The Honourable Kamla Persad-Bissessar SC, Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago, expressed delight today after China promised to deliver a Long Range Vessel (LRV) to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard in the shortest possible time.
 
"This is really good news," Prime Minister Persad-Bissessar said she convinced Chinese Premier, Li Keqiang, that the T&T Coast Guard needed two vessels to lock down this country's borders in light of the increase in arms and narco trafficking.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar led a T&T delegation to bilateral talks with the Chinese Premier and top officials of the Chinese Government at the Great Hall of the People here in Beijing today. The T&T delegation also included Minister of Foreign Affairs, Winston Dookeran, Minister of Trade and Industry, Vasant Bharath, and Minister of Energy and Energy Affairs, Kevin Ramnarine.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar came to the table in Beijing with a list of proposals, hoping to convince her Chinese counterpart to assist. "We are here today to further the partnership we started 40 years ago. I am hoping that you could use your good office to drive these projects," the Prime Minister added.
 
The Prime Minister said she was aware that China was building two LRVs and pleaded with Li Keqiang to sell one "in the shortest possible time." She also sought assistance from the Chinese in the establishment of a National Operations Centre (NOC), saying that a Chinese company was already interested in such a project.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar said a team from the T&T Coast Guard recently visited China and proposed that T&T acquire one LRV "right away." She told the Chinese Premier, "National Security remains the number one priority of my Government right now."
 
Both the Governments of China and Trinidad and Tobago will sit down and deal with the financing aspect of the purchase.
 
In her discussions, Mrs Persad-Bissessar also sought assistance with the following:
 
1) Construction and design of six new Economic Zones in Trinidad and Tobago.
 
2) Development of a trans-shipment Port and Dry Dock in South Trinidad.
 
3) Early processing of a loan agreement with the China Exim Bank so these projects can be expedited.
 
4) Construction of two new hospitals.
 
5) Removal of asphalt from the Pitch Lake in greater capacities.
 
The Prime Minister thanked the Chinese for the scanner for the Port, and said her Government was interested in purchasing more.

She said Trinidad and Tobago was strategically located to become the gateway of the Americas. This was something which aroused the attention
 
of the Chinese Premier. He said it was something which his Government would explore.
 
During the welcome ceremony, the Chinese Military Band played the T&T National Anthem, which according to some members of the T&T delegation, "sounded better than what is played at home."
 
During the banquet hosted by the Chinese Premier, the Military Band played "Portrait of Trinidad and Tobago" causing PM Persad-Bissessar to personally leave her table and speak to members of the band.
 
 
Four agreements were signed today in the areas of health, sport, energy and civil aviation.
 
 
THE PRIME MINISTER'S SCHEDULE FOR WEDNESDAY
 
11 am - Visit to the Forbidden City, Beijing.
 
12 noon - Opening of the T&T Embassy in Beijing.
 
2.30 pm - Visit to the China Agricultural University.
 
6 pm - Attend at banquet hosted by the President of China, His Excellency Xi Jingping.
10 pm - Departs for Shanghai.

[Tiresais]

China to sell long range border patrol vessel to TT
...the vessel will arrive in shortest possible time, discloses Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar

By Multimedia Desk
Story Created: Feb 25, 2014 at 9:57 AM ECT
Story Updated: Feb 25, 2014 at 10:17 AM ECT
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/China-to-provide-long-range-border-patrol-vessel-to-TT-247051311.html

THE Office of the Prime Minister disclosed today that China has agreed to deliver a Long Range Vessel to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard, to increase maritime border security and fights arms and drug smuggling. The vessel will arrive in the shortest possible time, and follows a request of China's Premier Li Keqiang by Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar who is currently on an official State visit to China. The following is the statement of the Office of the Prime Minister -

The Honourable Kamla Persad-Bissessar SC, Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago, expressed delight today after China promised to deliver a Long Range Vessel (LRV) to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard in the shortest possible time.
 
"This is really good news," Prime Minister Persad-Bissessar said she convinced Chinese Premier, Li Keqiang, that the T&T Coast Guard needed two vessels to lock down this country's borders in light of the increase in arms and narco trafficking.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar led a T&T delegation to bilateral talks with the Chinese Premier and top officials of the Chinese Government at the Great Hall of the People here in Beijing today. The T&T delegation also included Minister of Foreign Affairs, Winston Dookeran, Minister of Trade and Industry, Vasant Bharath, and Minister of Energy and Energy Affairs, Kevin Ramnarine.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar came to the table in Beijing with a list of proposals, hoping to convince her Chinese counterpart to assist. "We are here today to further the partnership we started 40 years ago. I am hoping that you could use your good office to drive these projects," the Prime Minister added.
 
The Prime Minister said she was aware that China was building two LRVs and pleaded with Li Keqiang to sell one "in the shortest possible time." She also sought assistance from the Chinese in the establishment of a National Operations Centre (NOC), saying that a Chinese company was already interested in such a project.
 
Mrs Persad-Bissessar said a team from the T&T Coast Guard recently visited China and proposed that T&T acquire one LRV "right away." She told the Chinese Premier, "National Security remains the number one priority of my Government right now."
 
Both the Governments of China and Trinidad and Tobago will sit down and deal with the financing aspect of the purchase.
 
In her discussions, Mrs Persad-Bissessar also sought assistance with the following:
 
1) Construction and design of six new Economic Zones in Trinidad and Tobago.
 
2) Development of a trans-shipment Port and Dry Dock in South Trinidad.
 
3) Early processing of a loan agreement with the China Exim Bank so these projects can be expedited.
 
4) Construction of two new hospitals.
 
5) Removal of asphalt from the Pitch Lake in greater capacities.
 
The Prime Minister thanked the Chinese for the scanner for the Port, and said her Government was interested in purchasing more.

She said Trinidad and Tobago was strategically located to become the gateway of the Americas. This was something which aroused the attention
 
of the Chinese Premier. He said it was something which his Government would explore.
 
During the welcome ceremony, the Chinese Military Band played the T&T National Anthem, which according to some members of the T&T delegation, "sounded better than what is played at home."
 
During the banquet hosted by the Chinese Premier, the Military Band played "Portrait of Trinidad and Tobago" causing PM Persad-Bissessar to personally leave her table and speak to members of the band.
 
 
Four agreements were signed today in the areas of health, sport, energy and civil aviation.
 
 
THE PRIME MINISTER'S SCHEDULE FOR WEDNESDAY
 
11 am - Visit to the Forbidden City, Beijing.
 
12 noon - Opening of the T&T Embassy in Beijing.
 
2.30 pm - Visit to the China Agricultural University.
 
6 pm - Attend at banquet hosted by the President of China, His Excellency Xi Jingping.
10 pm - Departs for Shanghai.

Fantastic news for my prospective Ph.D. - looks like I'm ahead of the game, whey hey! Should be great for Trinidad and Tobago, China's consumption is going to increase massively over the next decade, and we want them buying Trinibagonian stuff.

[Bitter]

Chinese vessels absurd, says Imbert
By Joel Julien joel.julien@trinidadexpress.com
Story Created: Feb 25, 2014 at 9:31 PM ECT
Story Updated: Feb 26, 2014 at 11:38 AM ECT
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Chinese-vessels-absurd-says-Imbert-247171861.html

“THE height of absurdity”.
This is how Opposition Member of Parliament Colm Imbert has described the announcement made by Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar yesterday that she is seeking to purchase a long-range vessel (LRV) from China for this country’s Coast Guard.

In 2007, the previous People’s National Movement (PNM) administration, of which Imbert was a Cabinet mem­ber, signed a £150 million contract with a company called VT Shipbuilding to build and commission vessels to patrol local waters and provide naval protection and surveillance.

British defence manufacturer BAE Systems eventually acquired VT Shipbuilding in 2009.
In 2010, months after assuming office, the People’s Partnership Government cancelled the contract because it said the vessels were not built according to specifications.

In a release form the Office of the Prime Minister yesterday, it was stated Persad-Bissessar said she was aware China was building two LRVs and “pleaded” and “convinced” Chinese Premier Li Keqiang to sell her one.

Persad-Bissessar told Li Keqiang the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard “needed the two vessels to lock down this country’s borders, in light of the increase in arms and narco trafficking”.

“The long-range vessel is more or less the same as an offshore patrol vessel, just different terminologies, but it is the same thing because you have vessels that operate in shore and you have vessels that operate offshore,” Imbert said in a telephone interview yesterday.

“The long-range vessel that is being made in China is very similar to the offshore patrol vessels that was being manufactured by BAE, so it is more or less the same boat, and that is the irony of this whole thing,” he said.

Imbert said it was Per­sad-Bissessar who led the charge in 2010 to cancel the contract to purchase the OPVs.

“First describing the boats as lemons and useless and, secondly, saying Trinidad and Tobago does not need to be patrolling the seas because the problem with crime is on land and not at sea,” Imbert said.
“I think it is the height of absurdity to come four years later and say that the Prime Minister has ‘pleaded’ with the government of China to give Trinidad and Tobago one of the long-range vessels that are being constructed for some other country,” he said.

Imbert said, logistically, this situation does not make sense.

“She now has come three and half years later, realising that what she did and what her Government did was nonsensical, and is now very calmly and very unashamedly stating as some kind of fantastic achievement that she has pleaded with the government of Chi­na to give us a boat, same boat,” Imbert said.

He said the entire situation has raised more questions than answers.

“What bothers me is what were the tendering procedures; what were the procurement procedures? Was there competitive tendering; what are the cost of these boats; were they designed for use in Trinidad and Tobago waters; are they designed to Coast Guard specifications; are they designed for our Trinidadian sailors; how are Trinidadians going to be trained to use Chinese boats; will the instructions come in English? These are the questions we have to ask. It makes absolutely no sense,” he said.
Imbert said the training programme for such “high-value, sophisticated military vessels” could take sometimes over a year.

“Our Coast Guard men will now have to be going to China where English is not the native tongue, at least with the BAE vessels, they were coming from England so the instructions would have been in English. The whole thing is just ludicrous,” Imbert said.

Imbert said China is not listed among the leading countries in terms of manufacture of such vessels.

[Bakes]

We've gone from BAE, a leading aerospace and naval design and manufacturing company... to some "Made in China" boats.  I could see if she went to Samsung or Hyundai, at least they have a track record, if not in Naval Armature.  But who is this builder?

[Tiresais]

We've gone from BAE, a leading aerospace and naval design and manufacturing company... to some "Made in China" boats.  I could see if she went to Samsung or Hyundai, at least they have a track record, if not in Naval Armature.  But who is this builder?

This looks more geopolitical than practical - simply out China buys nearly all of Trini's major exports - Gas (more competitive price than the US potentially), Ammonia (yea Trini's the world's biggest exporter, used in fertilizer, and China's one of the biggest buyers), and refined iron ore. Buying some crappy boat to solidify ties would be quite a good deal.

[congo]

Madman talk. In what world could that ever be a good deal?

[Bitter]

Madman talk. In what world could that ever be a good deal?

For China

[congo]

I love how poor countries like ours like to go to these giants and give away our wealth. We truly have become a lost people.

[grimm01]

This Chinese boat thing is hilarious as on one hand Gary Griffith in the papers talking about how we have a naval implementation team doing analysis and study to determine exactly what we need and no decisions have been made yet and on the other hand the PM begging China to skip us to the front of the line for a boat that is already under construction to spec for someone else.

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-02-26/griffith-patrol-vessel-china-tt-will-not-buy-%E2%80%98white-elephant%E2%80%99

“We do have a naval implementation team and they have actually looked at the vessel. They have looked at vessels from Korea as well and with their report they will actually give us the concept of what they see as the best type of vessel for us to move forward with,” Griffith said. Before a decision could be finalised, the National Security Minister said, other details must be taken into consideration, including finance and maintenance.

Before a decision could be finalized? Sounds like decision already made, analysis be damned... Same article:

"A press release issued from the Office of the Prime Minister yesterday quoted the PM as saying China had promised to deliver a long-range vessel to the T&T Coast Guard in the shortest possible time"

This government really rudderless yes. First we doh need no boats to fight crime, then the boats were in such disfunction that BAE was advantaging us by selling us that sh!t (boats subsequently bought by a navy with aircraft carrier and nuclear submarine), and now we over in China looking desperate to protect we border - so desperate we buying boat before the military submit recommendations... smh

[FF]

Where is our media on this, asking the tough questions?

[Deeks]

Where is our media on this, asking the tough questions?

The media have asked but the gov't never answered. What you want the media to do ? Threaten them!

[Bitter]

Where is our media on this, asking the tough questions?

Is carnival. What really wrong with you eh?

[Deeks]

Does this realy make sense? They only thing I could agree with, is  what Tiresais refer to as a geopolitical decision. China buys a lot from us. But the US buys a lot from us also.