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Author Topic: Crimes News Thread  (Read 83232 times)

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Offline TriniCana

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2008, 04:14:22 PM »
Cana..

I think this a good initiative and something that has crossed my mind to invite discourse of this nature.

You should start a new thread, some might miss this.

Sure why not. It will be a branch off of this thread.

Shark and elan could you both copy and paste your thoughts in the new thread i'm about to create please and thanks

Offline TriniCana

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All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2008, 04:16:19 PM »
http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=39563.msg489256#msg489256
continuation from kaisocagoals' thread.

Question to those willing to share their thoughts and ideas.
Serious stuff please.


Do we in this thread have answers or ways to curb the increase in crime in Trinidad and Tobago ?
Seems like some of you do.

Okay!

As the Minister of National Security of Trinidad and Tobago, the Prime Minister handed you a budget of let's say 4.4 billion TT dollars (from 2007 budget) and says to you 'I want to see a decrease in crime in 1 year - do what you want.'

* Step by step show everybody your plans.
* Doh show me what other people write, no links...nothing like that. I want your thoughts.

Who knows, those reporters who like to visit the forum often, and like to take snips of what people write in here, ya idea might end up on front page. So use proper english and use fullstop and commas.


Thanks
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 04:29:40 PM by TriniCana »

Offline elan

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2008, 04:20:49 PM »
Y isnt it cheaper?

There are heightened procedures built into every capital case, including an exhaustive appeals process.  The costs associated with prosecuting a capital case actually outweighs the costs on average of incarcerating someone for life.  Note I said the costs associated with 'prosecuting'... that's not even including the costs of defending the accused.

In the Caribbean it could be the cheapest option.

Death sentence is not an effective deterrent to crime because the punishment is not carried out immediately.

That last sentence is speculative.  Even if you killed them right after you ketch them there is absolutely no way of predicting the what type of deterrent effect it would have on crime.  It's not like criminals say "well, I'll go rob and kill dat fella b/c even if they ketch mih they go keep mih on death row fuh 10 yrs before dey kill mih".  Criminals in the moment of their crime hardly ever stop to think about the consequences... they don't think they'll get caught at all.

For me, administering the death penalty is about saving money that could be better used elsewhere. It doesnt need to be a deterrent...it costs alot of money to keep a 25 yr old man in jail for 50-odd years.

Whether killing them would be the cheapest option or not I don't know... but we shouldn't be rushing to execute people all in the name of saving money.  We should most be interested in seeing that justice is done.

Psychologists have always emphasized that for punishment to be effective it must be instantaneous. Hence, a major reason why the death penalty is not a deterrent. The death penalty is a long and drawn out process.

You are only looking at one aspect of murder, that is the criminal who go to rob and end up killing someone. In fact many criminals do consider the consequences for their would be actions, the thing is they more often than not believe they would not get ketch or they feel (machismo) they would be able to deal with the punishments or get out of it all together.
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Offline elan

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2008, 04:21:39 PM »
For starters
1. Set up a base where dispatch is located.
2. A senior officer, a junior officer and a dispatcher at every station. All other officers out patrolling in vehicles individually. Police cars set up similar to police cars in the US.
3. Increased army and police patrols in high risk areas.
4. Build/get a massive building in Chaguanas and use it as traffic branch.
5. In the first 3 months traffic officers do highly increased traffic stops citing drivers for almost any infringements. All traffic citations (no matter where in the country) go to Chaguanas to sort out their citations.
6. With # 5 the highways should always have present, police officers at random places.
7. One day every month random medicals are given to police officers. Delinquent or guilty officers reprimanded and or dismissed. Officers are sent for training every 6 months.
8. Increased salaries and promotion options for officer to grow in the service.
10. Youth and community out reach programs involving police, youth and women affairs, Churches, and schools educating youths on community and personal responsibility.
11. Incentives for schools who generate great results (CXC, SEA, Cape etc). Increased salaries for teachers.
12. No home suspensions, or students being expelled from school. Student do In School Suspension. Students with behavioral problems, at risk students attend alternative school. The alternative school can be staffed with Army officers and community officers.
13. Mandatory school attendance for school age children. Children who do not attend school on a regular basis parents will be held accountable (community service, etc.).
14. Accessible education for adults.
15. Law reform, in terms of effective court system. Punishment to suit the crime.


The main thing right now is to make the police visible and effective.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 05:12:47 PM by elan »
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Offline Sando prince

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Re: See the Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2008, 04:21:45 PM »
Do we in this thread have answers or ways to curb the increase in crime in Trinidad and Tobago ?
Seems like some of you do.

 So use proper english and use fullstop and commas.
Thanks

Allyuh read dat carefully eh...and ah torkin to the journalists who visitin dis thread too for some help. 8).

Good post TriniCana i have alot to say and alot of input to share under this thread. I will be back soon

Offline dinho

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2008, 04:57:41 PM »
Control the roads! Control the Roads! Control the Roads!

- Roll out a new fleet of unmarked police vehicles for highway patrol and for 1 month, launch an all out no-nonsense crackdown on traffic offenders. Establish a visible presence. Abandon the occasional road block method, this does not work in this day and age where a simple cell phone call would render the exercise useless.
- Computerize the licensing office
- Establish a points system for traffic offences and enforce license suspensions.
- Increase penalties for traffic violations
- Remove the ticket processing function from the Magistrates Court and create a separate center specializing in processing tickets and minor traffic violations.
- Enforce warrants for unpaid tickets/traffic violations.
- Tighten legislation to make it easier to suspend licences.

Everything illegal that happens in the country has to pass on the roads. Controlling the roads will go a long way towards controlling crime.

The problem with the roads is that there is no such thing as recourse.

The same people who routinely break the law on the roads will drive in a foreign country even as near as Barbados and make sure to strap in and drive below the speed limit for the simple reason that the traffic laws are visibly enforced.

It can be done.
         

Offline D.H.W

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2008, 05:31:48 PM »
on a note them marines in trini , i see two us marine black hawk helicopter fly over my house low yesterday doing some exercises.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2008, 05:37:24 PM »
Psychologists have always emphasized that for punishment to be effective it must be instantaneous. Hence, a major reason why the death penalty is not a deterrent. The death penalty is a long and drawn out process.

You are confusing the different theories of deterrence...specific deterrence with general deterrence.  Specific deterrence is punishment against the offender to deter him from acting in futue.  General deterrence is punishment against the offender in hopes that others in observing his crime and punishment, would be deterred from similarly acting in future.  Instantaneous punishment is specific to the individual... you punish him immediately so that he can appreciate why HE is being punished.  This is the type of punishment that your psychological model addresses. 

All that aside, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this...  punishment is never instantaneous in the criminal justice system, has never been since the rise of civilized society.  All of that theoretical psychology talk has very little practical utility in criminal justice, since in every instance there's a trial which is time consuming in of itself, not even counting the time it takes to get to trial.


You are only looking at one aspect of murder, that is the criminal who go to rob and end up killing someone. In fact many criminals do consider the consequences for their would be actions, the thing is they more often than not believe they would not get ketch or they feel (machismo) they would be able to deal with the punishments or get out of it all together.

What other 'aspect' of murder is there to look at??  I simply gave that as one scenario but it's applicable to any capital offense. 

As for the bolded assertion... that simply hasn't been borne out by research, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.  Many criminals don't even plan capital offenses, often they plan some specific crime and it ends up a capital offense because of some aggravating factor.  Ex. A rape or a robbery becomes a murder... where the murder wasn't an initial part of the plan but became incidental to the execution of the specific crime.  Now which criminal do you think will plan a robbery or rape with the thought that he might get the death penalty?  I won't bog down the thread with too much more long talk, but in the 32 yrs since capital punishment has been reinstaed in the US it simply has not proven to be a deterrent.  Maybe, like I said earlier, in Trinidad it might have an effect.

Offline Bakes

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2008, 05:39:36 PM »
The police force needs to be reinvented from top to bottom:
 
-Improve background screening and psychological testing for all recruits... as well as for present officers.  This is particularly necessary to get a handle on who these police officers are associating with. 
-Implement training to regroom the police service into a professional force...emphasis on professional. 
-Establish mobile command units, and mobile response units. 
-De-centralize the force even more than it already is, with mini command centers set up around the country. 
-Establish permanent police presence in crime hotspots... or at least permanent until crime abates.
-Improve crime lab performance by improving training, techniques and equipment
-Improve surveillance techniques... I read yesterday how police ketch ah fella with $4m in coke after spying on his movements for weeks and trailing him to Piarco.  He realize that police presence was high at the airport so he abort the transaction, not realizing dey was dun on he case.  Dai'z some real Law and Order stuff right dey.


However, with all of this, any changes must be made in coordination with both the legislature (revamped laws, like the life for child molesters measure they announce yesterday) and the judiciary... which might need a separate post by itself.

Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2008, 05:49:09 PM »
Good post Cana (and contributors), given the $50B USD budget, could easily round up the figure to $1B USD for crime, a mere 2%
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Offline Blue

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2008, 06:03:41 PM »
Y isnt it cheaper?

There are heightened procedures built into every capital case, including an exhaustive appeals process.  The costs associated with prosecuting a capital case actually outweighs the costs on average of incarcerating someone for life.  Note I said the costs associated with 'prosecuting'... that's not even including the costs of defending the accused.

I'm talking about TnT, where these fellas are already on death row, and so presumably cost the same amount in legal fees, whether or not we actually kill dem.

In the Caribbean it could be the cheapest option.

Death sentence is not an effective deterrent to crime because the punishment is not carried out immediately.

That last sentence is speculative.  Even if you killed them right after you ketch them there is absolutely no way of predicting the what type of deterrent effect it would have on crime.  It's not like criminals say "well, I'll go rob and kill dat fella b/c even if they ketch mih they go keep mih on death row fuh 10 yrs before dey kill mih".  Criminals in the moment of their crime hardly ever stop to think about the consequences... they don't think they'll get caught at all.

For me, administering the death penalty is about saving money that could be better used elsewhere. It doesnt need to be a deterrent...it costs alot of money to keep a 25 yr old man in jail for 50-odd years.

Whether killing them would be the cheapest option or not I don't know... but we shouldn't be rushing to execute people all in the name of saving money.  We should most be interested in seeing that justice is done. I'm not questioning whether our judicial system is perfect...I'm saying if some is found guilty, they should hang, rather than sit on death row forever.

Offline Bakes

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2008, 07:20:50 PM »
Ryan... if they're still on death row then that means the appeals process hasn't been exhausted yet.  Should we shorten it in order to save money, even if it means denying these offenders the full process of the law?

Offline kounty

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2008, 11:51:24 PM »
okmar my idea was real similar, but from the point of enforcing all road laws to pay for police service.  Un marked vehicles and speeding tickets galore for everybody.  breakin' red lights, driving on shoulder - high ticket (to raise revenue and build order and presence in the society).
then with all them extra traffic cases, we goh have to import magistrates (jus like we have foreign nurses and doctors workin') to handle jus real menial cases, and save the trini magistrates for the real cases.  I will spen all dat money and build one big prison in biche. 
'regular' people goin' and have to make a lil jail.  the 'regular' man living in lange park who forget to pay tickets for years - a lil jail.  the regular fella who payin for they drivers license - a lil sting and he could make a lil jail too.  and vice versa, the license officer who taking bribes...a lil for him too.  Only then really you could justify bringing down the heavy hand of the law on people, cuz trini corrupt at at the core.
then as west coast was saying maybe on another thread, children need some civics comin' up right through, and a system should be in place where a child can't 'make it' without some sort of community service, whether is helping read to young children who havin trouble reading or whatever.

Offline assrancid

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2008, 01:04:36 AM »
First of all if anyne sees black hak helicopters in T&T, that is probably the US Army, not the Marines.

Ok, the trouble in TT is a cultural one.  Before we get to the minister and hte budget, ask yourselves what part does the citizenery play in upholding the laws of the land.

The same trinis who go to the US and the UK and do not litter, who keep their yards clean, who make sure that their children learn to respect authority, are the ones responsible for leanding a helping hand in T&T.

Yet the question is straightforward  "Do they do the same things/adopt the same attitude in T&T?"

The police in T&T are ill equipped and ill trained and are citizens of T&T with the same attitudes as the people.  The people refer to the police as "THE LAW"  the police have the attitdude that they are "THE LAW" and not upholders of the law.

Up until very recently, the Police Commissioner could not promote or fire a police for malfeasance etc. unless he went to the Police Services Commission, where a Corporal was the head honcho and apply to take disiplinary action

He had no cotrol over the budget etc.  UNTIL RECENTLY ok?

Imagine you are a young bright policeman or woman, you went to university, you took courses, and are upto date with the latest in crime fighting procedures.  Your immediate supervisor is a corporal who has been an acting sergeant for 7 years.  He has no degree, dropped out of HS and has been in the police service for 29 years!

It took him 25 yars to making his acting position, he does not care to hear your ideas as you are a now come and fell yuh bright becasue you went university.  He tells you, boy, is years we doing things this way, you want to come an change de wuk!

How do you respond?  His immediate supervisor is an Inspector with 32 years serice, has to retire in 3 years and is currently on leave for 1 year!

OK I hope you are getting the picture here.

Until the government changes the culture within the police service, and in the nation we are going to have a continuation of the goings-on!

The police and indeed all institutions within the nation needs to start promoting based on merit and qualifications and not on seniority.  Reward those who take the iniative and time to invest in personal growth, not hose who clock in everyday and sit at their desks complaining how things have been done for years.

Schools need to be remodelled and updated.  Teachers need to be better trained and paid.  Parents need to become proactive and invest time in the education of their offspring.  CIVICS need to be a integral part of the curriculum throughout all grades.

We need to change the culture of jump and wave too.  Trinis are reknowned for their parties, well life is not always about feteing!

The people need to hold the government accountable for their actions.  Demand accountability, why do you think Jack Warner can escape with his nonsense?  We are too quick to cuss and forget, then we hold a fete to ease de tension!

Nah!

We are as responsible, or more responsible than the government for the condition of OUR country.

Martin Jospeh is a trini, an honest trini too.  He is not a good politican.  He tells the nation that the job is harder than he thought, how hard his job is etc.  His hands are tied in many respects (look at the examples of the police service).  He buys more equipment, he wants to hire more police, he wants to build more police stations and buy more police cars.  Stop gap measures and he is bending to public pressure.

Mre police, more police cars etc are not going to help one iota!  Not one!

The culture of the Police service and the way we think as a nation are the real issue.

The criminals are not worried about the police now and they will not worry about an increase in the number of police, UNLESS, they face a new type of police!

More to come from me.....

Offline TriniCana

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2008, 04:39:52 AM »
Morning

Folks thank you for keeping this thread serious. I can't wait to get home this afternoon to read in full.

Have a good one :beermug:


Offline morvant

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2008, 06:28:40 AM »
DNA
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2008, 10:49:03 AM »
Liking the optimism in this thread.

Offline Trini Madness

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2008, 11:49:56 AM »
to decrease crime in T&T i would first fix up the whole police department...as what bake n shark say, then make a task force similar to SWAT, if you ever seen the brazilian movie "trope de elite" you'll know what im talking about. i know we have some tactical team but i dont think they take it seriously. these guys on the SWAT team are guys who are no joke and would also track down those who are corrupt in law enforcement. in my mind, the only way to defeat a criminal is to strike fear into their cold hearts. i would then also invest more money into a CSI lab.
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Offline Swima

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2008, 12:56:39 PM »
So a 15 year old girl who was minding her business get snipe in a cross fire yesterday. This happened so close to my house I should have heard the shots if I was listening out for them. Assylum, I see you were asking Disgruntled to share some of his conversation that he and i had some time back on the seeds planted by Eric Williams. Well let me see if I can share some of it and maybe bring some of my perspectives to the discussion.

First of all, the institution known as the PNM is NOT, in my opinion responsible for the crime situation in the country. I will, however, lead with the "thesis" that they are responsible for the attitudes that prevail heavily in this country which speak directly to a blatant lack of respect for order and discipline in Trinidad and Tobago. Hear me out...

When the late Dr. Williams was faced with the dilemma in the late 60's of alienating his African supporters and the 'Black Power' revolution took place, he made it his business, after realizing the power of numbers in a demographic society, to appeal to the psychological conscience of the Afro-Trinidadian. He took a number of steps in attempting to creolize his cabinet, getting rid of the Montano's and O'Halloran's so the the Afro' Trinidadian could identify better with their representatives. This is why, to this day you would never see a non-Afro Trinidadian member of parliament in any of the East Port of Spain Constituencies. As a matter of fact the most crime laden and poverty laden constituency in the country belonged to the good doctor himself. To this day, nothing had been done to uplift that area both in terms of crime reduction and economic assistance, but they still love him too bad. He say he could put a crapaud to run in that constituency and it would win.

When we experienced our first economic boom during the 70's, many dreams were sold. People got pay raises, money was spending left right and centre, yet basic issues were not being dealt with, because the policy was to spoil the children and keep them happy (distracted) while we rape the economy, because we don't know how long these good times will last. In the mean time, the citizens were forced to deal with an unreliable phone service; the private transportation services were shut down while people lined up for hours after work, unable to get home; not enough beds in the hospitals; widespread flooding during the rainy season. For those of us who live here at home or even read the news of home, does any of this sound familiar? In the mean time, the only policy was to throw money at every problem and hope to get some solution, while very little strategy or implementation was applied. (Older heads, if I going wrong here tell me, I do some reading and talk to plenty old people in my time, so I hope all of them didn't lie to me.)

Meanwhile, people partying and having a time, cause when your house flood out, you could buy new stove and new fridge and everything cash, cause "Money eh no problem." The ones in charge don't care, and as a matter of fact, the lack if discipline displayed by those at the top was an indication to many below that anything goes and it was all right to have a time.

Fast forward to the recession, and when NAR came into power. All of a sudden there was a need to tighten up the boot straps and actually work. Things bad, but we cya call the Doctor for a prescription anymore, HE DEAD! I remember the first week the NAR was in power. Garbage truck coming on time everyday, water not locking off, people working. I was a child then, but I remember hearing my folks and others talking,things were hard still, but people working. Then they decided to tell people that they would be forced to raise taxes. If you notice now in the US, along with foreign policy, this is the hottest subject of the presidential debates, especially because they are well into a recession themselves. Many of us here have kids, nephews, nieces etc. When a child has been spoiled for so long, how do you begin a programme of discipline? How do you tell them that in order for your Government to help you out of your current situation, one which is already dire, they are going to have to pay? For the second time since independence, the population was alienated from the Government, and for the second time, we had an insurrection. But something else happened with this insurrection... instead of simply demonstrating, somewhere along the line, it became all right for people to use violence to get what they wanted. (Now older heads, I know when the young man, Basil Davis, was shot by the police in the riots in the 70's that his funeral was the largest attended in the country, and while it was an intimidating presence, no real gun violence was present in the aftermath of that killing am I right?) But it was a different story after the coup of 1990. Every year since then, we have had an increase in murders with the exception of 3 years at the most, but what is even more important is that we have not realized just how much that event had an effect on our current way of life down here. Members of the Jamaat who joined the expanding drug trade already understood the power of the gun, and taught it to many others who taught exponential numbers beyond that. It is no wonder why kids are running around with guns here.

This is where we come to the relation between indiscipline and crime. The 1990 coup showed us how fragile we are. But the fact that the main perpetrators of that exercise are still alive and well also showed that there are no real consequences for our actions. Psychologically that must ring bells in the minds of a population. Since then, with several other factors which includes (as much as it pains me to say) mass media blitzing the minds of our youth with garbage, and a lack of household guidance, we have seen our discipline levels deteriorate each year and the corresponding crime statistics back up that statement. Simply obeying the traffic codes is beyond many of our citizens and because there is little enforcement, they don't have to follow them. Petty theft during carnival, football games, concerts, etc continues to escalate. Car theft, break-ins, robberies with deadly weapons are now things you simply must be aware of at all times. General unease is rampant after dark where there is no security. Places have beefed up security for Xmas shoppers because they know there will be an increase in crimes targeting shoppers in the next two months. I not just talking this, this is really what goes on down here, among the good times and the liming and drinking and shit talk. You ask any police officer in the know about the reported crimes to solved crimes ratio and see what he or she says. Even scarier still, ask them about recent murders and where the gun men are aiming, and they will tell you that the large percentage now are aimed at the victims head rather than chest. With the amount of guns in this country and the ability for a young man to simply pull a trigger and snuff out a 'trouble-maker' it's only logical that we would come to this. Crime is easy and there is relatively no reason to fear any legal repercussions from committing a criminal act. The real question is why the powers that be are not dealing with it effectively. Some of us here can guess the answer to that too. But I go leave it here for now, and await comments/criticisms.

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Offline Blue

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Re: All yuh see de Express today?....
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2008, 12:59:33 PM »
Ryan... if they're still on death row then that means the appeals process hasn't been exhausted yet.  Should we shorten it in order to save money, even if it means denying these offenders the full process of the law?

Nope, I jus think we should go with whatever's the cheaper option, has nothing to do with shortening the process. But I'm surprised that the cost of jailing someone for life is cheaper than legal fees...I know in the US it costs them well over £50k per year, so multiplying dat by 50 years is real money  :-\  (ok, TnT housing costs wud be much lower, but presumably legal costs are lower as well)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 01:04:22 PM by Ryan »

Offline dinho

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2008, 03:26:02 PM »
Swima, great post and great read.

Agree with alot of things you stated.

Thanks.
         

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2008, 03:42:27 PM »
This is where we come to the relation between indiscipline and crime. The 1990 coup showed us how fragile we are. But the fact that the main perpetrators of that exercise are still alive and well also showed that there are no real consequences for our actions. Psychologically that must ring bells in the minds of a population. Since then, with several other factors which includes (as much as it pains me to say) mass media blitzing the minds of our youth with garbage, and a lack of household guidance, we have seen our discipline levels deteriorate each year and the corresponding crime statistics back up that statement. Simply obeying the traffic codes is beyond many of our citizens and because there is little enforcement, they don't have to follow them. Petty theft during carnival, football games, concerts, etc continues to escalate. Car theft, break-ins, robberies with deadly weapons are now things you simply must be aware of at all times. General unease is rampant after dark where there is no security. Places have beefed up security for Xmas shoppers because they know there will be an increase in crimes targeting shoppers in the next two months. I not just talking this, this is really what goes on down here, among the good times and the liming and drinking and shit talk. You ask any police officer in the know about the reported crimes to solved crimes ratio and see what he or she says. Even scarier still, ask them about recent murders and where the gun men are aiming, and they will tell you that the large percentage now are aimed at the victims head rather than chest. With the amount of guns in this country and the ability for a young man to simply pull a trigger and snuff out a 'trouble-maker' it's only logical that we would come to this. Crime is easy and there is relatively no reason to fear any legal repercussions from committing a criminal act. The real question is why the powers that be are not dealing with it effectively. Some of us here can guess the answer to that too. But I go leave it here for now, and await comments/criticisms.

Peace (if you really believe it can happen).

Swima, thx for your indulgence. I'm sure many will benefit from it. Hopefully countless will chime in since we are all stakeholders.

I'm still pondering the impact of austerity measures on our political cycle. Won't comment immediately on that.

Similarly, 'cultural seepage' in a post-colonial, nouveau independent context is an engaging issue. Related to that, I have a problem with the widespread, orthodox view of Williams as either pater familias or pater patriae  ... but that is for another day. In other words, ah coming back to Williams in due course. :)

Where I would like to enter the discussion is the pyschological impact of the coup attempt on the populace. To my observation this is pivotal. And valid ...  not that any of the other comments are facially invalid ... just cyah get into them right now.

One question that comes to mind is: how do we balance the 'apparent lack of consequence' with respect to the authors of the coup attempt versus the actuality that said persons were submitted to the judicial process?

With respect to the larger issue of criminality, the absence of political will is inescapable.

[I think we should be careful to separate hooliganism and criminality of the sort that dominates our media (kidnapping, murder, extortion, street level crimes against the person etc.) from the imperatives of politically-inspired? events such as '90 ... some may take issue with this but dahis why we discussing it ... In other words, was Abu Bakr a common criminal or not? Yes? No? Undecided?]

How much democracy do we really believe in? Will we ever arrive at the position that restrictive, possibly/quasi anti-democratic measures (although not necessarily extra-constitutional measures) need to be employed to reverse the context of today's crime and malaise? Merely a question.

Along with the observation about political will ... here's another question (none of this is Swima-specific since we're all stakeholders) ... Are Trinbagonians courageous people?


« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 03:44:53 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline assrancid

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2008, 04:22:03 PM »
we are party people!  Courageous people?

What has really happened in T&T to test our mettle as a people?  We are eithee the bravest or most dotish!

Coup going on, people dead and dying, Parliament captured, bombs gone off, lives interrupted and the Defence Force mobilized.  Statae of Emergency Curfew and we having Curfew Parties!

Brave or Dotish no tail, you tell me.

Bandits have ordinary people on the run, the police inept, the government trying but have no teeth, and we....partying.

Corruption and murder, traffic and poor social health, and we.....partying.  Kidnapping unabated, kidnappers running around free to kidnap again.  Crime unsolved, witnesses getting killed, victims of accidents being robbed to add to their misfortune, rapes, abuse of children and women.

School children making pornos, schools falling apart, students fighting, teachers not going to school, and we....partying.

We seem to be most socially conscious during Carnival season when Kaiso higlights the ills....yet what do we do?  we jump an dwine to the songs...we partying.

Maybe a better question is are we a nation as yet?  Are we serious as a people, or we just like to fete!

We partying!


Maybe we dotish and selfish!

Once the party running we ok.  When have the people of T&T been ever called upon to sacrifice anything?

Remember God is ah trini!  We safe.  Hurricanes, natural disasters all avoid us, we have abundance of natural resources, we safe and we have a reason to fete every month, we nice.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 04:41:05 PM by assrancid »

Offline kicker

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2008, 04:41:47 PM »
we are party people!  Courageous people?

What has really happened in T&T to test our mettle as a people?  We are eithee the bravest or most dotish!

Coup going on, people dead and dying, Parliament captured, bombs gone off, lives interrupted and the Defence Force mobilized.  Statae of Emergency Curfew and we having Curfew Parties!

Brave or Dotish no tail, you tell me.

Bandits have ordinary people on the run, the police inept, the government trying but have no teeth, and we....partying.

Corruption and murder, traffic and poor social health, and we.....partying.

School children making ponos, schools falling apart, teachers not going to school, and we....partying.

We seem to be most socially conscious during Carnival season when Kaiso higlights the ills....yet what do we do?  we jump an dwine to the songs...we partying.

Maybe a better question is are we a nation as yet?  Are we serious as a people, or we just like to fete!

We partying!


Unless you believe that the amount of partying in Trinidad is done at the expense of social reform/reconstruction, or that we ought to bemoan our dire situation by 24/7 sulking, mourning and solemnity then I'm not sure what your point is.

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2008, 04:47:35 PM »
Yes we have a culture of partying and singing about our woes in kaisos.  No real public voice.  If you want to see trinis react violently and voiceferously let them cancel carnival!

That is our value system fella.

If you cannot get the point then my point is made!

Offline kicker

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2008, 05:53:17 PM »
Yes we have a culture of partying and singing about our woes in kaisos.  No real public voice.  If you want to see trinis react violently and voiceferously let them cancel carnival!

That is our value system fella.

If you cannot get the point then my point is made!

Bullshit.

Your point is overly simplistic, naive and foolish... 

No real public voice!!!! (whatever that means)... and hurrah shout the rum shop patrons....

If you want to see trinis react violently and voiceferously let them cancel carnival!!! - more shouts of support come from the dummies....

Boss, Trinis are acting violently and vociferously every day.  That's what gang warfare and violent crime is- a violent reaction to a failed education system that has left too many unskilled behind without options.  A violent reaction to a post-colonial society with a low self esteem that is vulnerable to outside influences that eat away into our sense of morals.  A violent reaction to naive and selfish government who has indulged in financial mismanagement and corruption needlessly filling pockets instead of developing the under-developed.  Agreed Trinidad needs brave leaders to stand up against alot that is currently taking place- But the voice must have a means.....and when you have an insular two party system that revolves and regurgitates the same old folks, their kin & the same old ideas in and out and a private sector run by a small nucleus of ppl making the decisions about where non-governmental funds are allocated, you have a greater populace that not only lacks the resources but also the means to enact change...and even more importantly the necessary faith in a continually failing system.   So what you have is every man for himself - and that is the foundation upon which our value system as a society is built- not partying....

Our leadership positions are not in the hands of real & capable leaders

You stay there and feel that Trinis like to lime more than anyone else....
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 05:57:25 PM by kicker »
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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2008, 06:15:01 PM »
fella, you agreeing with me that we are a selfish society.  Where else in the world do you see people holding parties when their country is under siege?

Why do we always bemoan the crime and the lack of governance except thru partying and calypso?

Yes the government failed us, but in a larger sense aren't we the government?

Failed education system, the same one which produced scholars ent?

I am sick and tired of the old colonial cliches.  Violent reaction to colonial rule?  now who is talking bullshit?

Who was it that loudly proclaimed "Massa day dun!"

Aren't we a Republic?  You saying that lack of educational opportunities creating crime and criminals, isn't education free in T&T? and Available to all and sundry?

The people failing, we teaching little children to wine before they can walk.  I dont buy your premise that the population lacks the power to bring about change.  I believe that the population has a culture of we good as long as they run some and we could fete!

YES FETE!

You say we selfish an only care about ourselves, everyman for himself....and that is the foundation for our value system, and I am not wholly disagreeing with that statement, I am adding another caveat, we like to fete too much in T&T.  Fete by itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but when we using it to express ourselves, who taking that seriously?  after carnival season is back to the status quo.  Just look at the drawing cards to political rallies....Big entertainers.  Not the message...who cares about the message if there is a good fete!???

We allow the regurgitation and the nepotism that permeates our two party system, hell we don't even have a 2 party system we have allowed a two race system to run things!


yes we like to party too much and we are not serious about anything of consequence until...until it hurts us directly.

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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2008, 07:00:28 PM »
fella, you agreeing with me that we are a selfish society.  Where else in the world do you see people holding parties when their country is under siege?

Why do we always bemoan the crime and the lack of governance except thru partying and calypso?

Yes the government failed us, but in a larger sense aren't we the government?

Failed education system, the same one which produced scholars ent?

Haiti has very prosperous rich business men, that doesn't speak positively about the standard of living in that country- so that scholar talk is crap- feed that to the masses...

I am sick and tired of the old colonial cliches.  Violent reaction to colonial rule?  now who is talking bullshit?

Colonial cliches? please... my ass...Not I breds...Who said anything about a violent reaction to colonial rule?- you're too focussed on making an argument- re-read what I said.... I commented on a POST COLONIAL societal self esteem that makes the society vulnerable to negative outside influences- it is those influences that augment the situation of violence. If you can't see the difference so be it.  I agree it's a crappy excuse for the way many ppl see things, but it's tough to argue that those forces are not at play...... 

Who was it that loudly proclaimed "Massa day dun!"

Aren't we a Republic?  You saying that lack of educational opportunities creating crime and criminals, isn't education free in T&T? and Available to all and sundry?

You serious? If you feed every man in the society a plate of shit, free of charge...does that mean that nutrition is all taken care of?  I'm not saying that education in T&T is a piece of shit...but I think there's alot of room for improvement...if you don't agree with that, then fine, I'm willing to hear you but not if yuh feeding me soup about scholars & freeness....please- like I say feed that to the masses

The people failing, we teaching little children to wine before they can walk.  I dont buy your premise that the population lacks the power to bring about change.  I believe that the population has a culture of we good as long as they run some and we could fete!

huh?

YES FETE!

You say we selfish an only care about ourselves, everyman for himself....and that is the foundation for our value system, and I am not wholly disagreeing with that statement, I am adding another caveat, we like to fete too much in T&T.  Fete by itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but when we using it to express ourselves, who taking that seriously?  after carnival season is back to the status quo.  Just look at the drawing cards to political rallies....Big entertainers.  Not the message...who cares about the message if there is a good fete!???

You show me a message that draws crowds to a political rally...and I'll show you chicken with teeth...Political rallies are all about hype...that's not unique to T&T

We allow the regurgitation and the nepotism that permeates our two party system, hell we don't even have a 2 party system we have allowed a two race system to run things!

Sure ok.... I say two party, You say two race (which is also true)....but I'm not sure how that lends to your point

yes we like to party too much and we are not serious about anything of consequence until...until it hurts us directly.


I'm not sure that Trinis' love for a good time needs to be compromised in order for positive change....I don't think it's a case of too much X, but more a case of too little Y....The two are mutually exclusive in my view.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 07:11:15 PM by kicker »
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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2008, 08:30:18 PM »


Where I would like to enter the discussion is the pyschological impact of the coup attempt on the populace. To my observation this is pivotal. And valid ...  not that any of the other comments are facially invalid ... just cyah get into them right now.

One question that comes to mind is: how do we balance the 'apparent lack of consequence' with respect to the authors of the coup attempt versus the actuality that said persons were submitted to the judicial process?

With respect to the larger issue of criminality, the absence of political will is inescapable.

[I think we should be careful to separate hooliganism and criminality of the sort that dominates our media (kidnapping, murder, extortion, street level crimes against the person etc.) from the imperatives of politically-inspired? events such as '90 ... some may take issue with this but dahis why we discussing it ... In other words, was Abu Bakr a common criminal or not? Yes? No? Undecided?]

Ssylum, I would have to say that with all due respect to the judicial process, the psychological impact of 1990 is something that is also inescapable. You can separate a politcally inspired event from general criminality in a classroom, or even in a forum such as this, but for those of us who saw the footage of men running into the red house shooting and gun butting, it might as well have been a carefully executed bank robbery unfolding. The images etched into our memories will always be of those men; of Bakr on tv looking like the mastermind of a sophisticated hijacking; and of of course his surrender, which of all images should have solidified his status as a criminal. Hands raised in front of the the armed forces and the police, being arrested. Many of us remember those events clearly today. How fresh was it in our minds when the verdict arrived? Did we feel like justice was served, even if due process was?
And what of  rest of the members of the Jamaat who were also exonerated of those charges? Did they feel as though they 'got away' with something? I could remember for years that many crimes reported were allegedly committed by members of the Jamaat, as per press reports. Is there true separation between the mindset of the youth who takes up a gun to storm the red house, not knowing why he is storming the red house, and the youth who a few years later, after being let off for those same actions, who takes up a gun and storms into a man's house to rob and kill him? When that question is answered then I believe you can fairly decide whether, in this case, the attempted coup of 1990 is truly separate and apart from the criminality we face today. Bakr and Bilal aside, think about the youths who were used. Now when you think about them, think about their sphere of immediate influence and that sphere should resemble the wake created by the pebble in the pond.
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Re: All yuh see de Express today....Your thoughts
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2008, 01:16:15 AM »

 Children making children in de barracks is de root cause.
And it still happening !
The vicious cycle is not stopping.
Maybe the Government of the day was not to blame for the original situation but for gods sake deal with it now so that future generations do not have child mothers and fathers.

  Full national service is the way to go .
Every male child regardless of color creed race or social standing should have compulsory military national service to do until we can accomplish a society that is disciplined and accepts the rule of law.
Plain and simple.
Ah want de woman on de bass

 

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