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Author Topic: WC 2010 - Match 64 - Final for 1st & 2nd place (11 July): Holland vs Spain  (Read 35378 times)

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Offline kicker

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PS You telling me Villa was not fouled on the shot! Like yuh watch the game with yuh 3D glasses off  ;D
 

Yes, I'm telling you he was not fouled on the shot... the Dutch player put his leg in front of him and got all ball, Villa's follow thru then hit the Dutch player (can't remember who it was) leg and he fall.  Iniesta dove just before that play during the sequence, and Fabregas as well, just on the outskirt of the box.


Villa? I thought it was Xavi involved on that play, kicking the defender's leg...

wasn't a pk in my opinion.  The defender got to the ball first, Xavi (I think- not Villa) was already in kicking motion and didn't see the defender coming through and ended up kicking his foot.  The defender played the ball, not the man...so no foul. 
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Offline slates

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Under all the shit talk, I cannot understand how anybody could say that Nigel (Jet Li) DeJong kicking Alonso in his friggin chest was "unintentional".

Which part of that was accidental?
The run-up to gain the required momentum?
The jumping to gain the required elevation?
The extending of the leg to deliver the knock-out impact?
The perfect delivery of the kick (that would make Jet Li, Jackie Chan and even the late Bruce and Brandon Lee proud)?
No wait, the appologetic raising of his hands after flattening Alonso... yeah, that was the "unintentional part".

Bottom line, he should have been sent to f*ck off! Because that was perhaps the most brazen foul of the entire cup. A move like that is only acceptable in MMA. It is worse than Mike Tyson biting Evander Hollyfield's ear in a boxing match. At least Mike was fighting with Evander!
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Offline Peong

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If it wasn't an English ref, De Jong woulda get a death sentence.
Since the semis, Netherlands needed to switch Kuyt and Robben and concentrate on getting some crosses in.
Kuyt cannot run with the ball on his left foot and had to keep turning back.
Robben can run up the wing, but the defenders know he want to cut in and they did not let him.
Kuyt, Van Persie, Sneijder and Robben were also too far apart to support each other.
Sneijder a lot of defending to do.
I have to fault the coach for that, the attack was not workin and he stuck with it for too long.

Spain played better and Iniesta played a good game.
I goin and eat some paella today.

Offline Observer

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PS You telling me Villa was not fouled on the shot! Like yuh watch the game with yuh 3D glasses off  ;D
 

Yes, I'm telling you he was not fouled on the shot... the Dutch player put his leg in front of him and got all ball, Villa's follow thru then hit the Dutch player (can't remember who it was) leg and he fall.  Iniesta dove just before that play during the sequence, and Fabregas as well, just on the outskirt of the box.

I don't know how a man could kick a man in his chest and stay on the field. Holland could have easily had 2 ejections in this game. It real hard for me to watch that game and say the ref favoured Spain.

Hear nah watching highlights ah dat kick by DeJong? i just ha to shake meh head yes, ah feel dat was one ah de best (by day ah mean nastiest, red-card-worthy) foul of the de whole world cup...i would love to know what DeJong could have possibly be saying after dat foul..... A A dey now show it again...unbelievable.

De man raise he hand right away and acknowledge his mistake... kudos to Webb for his restraint.  If it occurred later in the game, or in any other game it was a straight red I sure.

I will not debate with you on this. From the time you say DeJong tackle had "no intent." Look at the youtube clip and tell me no intent. Look where the ball is and what DeJong did! Frigging Alonso is heading the ball
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Offline Socapro

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PS You telling me Villa was not fouled on the shot! Like yuh watch the game with yuh 3D glasses off  ;D
 

Yes, I'm telling you he was not fouled on the shot... the Dutch player put his leg in front of him and got all ball, Villa's follow thru then hit the Dutch player (can't remember who it was) leg and he fall.  Iniesta dove just before that play during the sequence, and Fabregas as well, just on the outskirt of the box.

I don't know how a man could kick a man in his chest and stay on the field. Holland could have easily had 2 ejections in this game. It real hard for me to watch that game and say the ref favoured Spain.

Hear nah watching highlights ah dat kick by DeJong? i just ha to shake meh head yes, ah feel dat was one ah de best (by day ah mean nastiest, red-card-worthy) foul of the de whole world cup...i would love to know what DeJong could have possibly be saying after dat foul..... A A dey now show it again...unbelievable.

De man raise he hand right away and acknowledge his mistake... kudos to Webb for his restraint.  If it occurred later in the game, or in any other game it was a straight red I sure.

I will not debate with you on this. From the time you say DeJong tackle had "no intent." Look at the youtube clip and tell me no intent. Look where the ball is and what DeJong did! Frigging Alonso is heading the ball

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CekIw5moE5c" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/CekIw5moE5c</a>

Come on Bakes!! Anyone who could look at this clip and say that De Long had "no intent" and should not have received a straight Red card definitely need glasses or was wearing "orange tainted" ones if they already have glasses! ???

I believe after that foul that De Long was pleasantly surprised that he wasn't Red carded and sent off! It's almost as if Webb and De Long are drinking partners or something!  :-\
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 10:10:40 AM by Socapro »
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Offline kicker

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Very hard to believe that De Jong intended to jump kick Alonso in his chest... We really think he meant to puncture the guy's lung?  I mean seriously now....

His challenged was poorly timed and the height of his boot was very very reckless indeed.  

I give him the benefit of the doubt there, and while he should have been red carded for the degree of recklessness in the challenge, I'm glad that he wasn't.  Red cards- especially early ones kill the game...  

Alonso wasn't seriously hurt, a direct goal scoring chance wasn't prevented and De Jong played the rest of the game "fairly"...all's well that ends well.  
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Offline dinho

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If that wasn't intentional i don't know what is.

Not saying that he set out from the start to plant he studs into Alonso's chest, but from the looks of it he was initially going for ball and when he realize Alonso was going to make it first, he decide to protect himself in the challenge with a high reckless foot.

A red card would not have been unjustified and no one wouldve argued that, but I agree from a neutral perspective it wouldve spoiled the game as a spectacle.

I actually thought besides the free kick that deflected off the wall in the build up to the Spain goal that Webb had a good game. Plenty cards but then if men playing wild, there is little choice left for the ref.
         

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Offline Observer

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Very hard to believe that De Jong intended to jump kick Alonso in his chest... We really think he meant to puncture the guy's lung?  I mean seriously now....

His challenged was poorly timed and the height of his boot was very very reckless indeed.  

I give him the benefit of the doubt there, and while he should have been red carded for the degree of recklessness in the challenge, I'm glad that he wasn't.  Red cards- especially early ones kill the game...  

Alonso wasn't seriously hurt, a direct goal scoring chance wasn't prevented and De Jong played the rest of the game "fairly"...all's well that ends well.  

Sorry gentlemen we will have to agree to disagree on this one. What DeJong did has no place in football. I do not for one minute believe that the importance of the game, is any excuse. Nor do I believe that the position on the field that it occured should impact the decision (you cannot be half pregnant).
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Offline Toppa

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World Cup final: Johan Cruyff hits out at 'anti-football' Holland

Johan Cruyff has launched a scathing attack on Holland's performance in their 1-0 defeat to Spain in the World Cup final last night, slamming their "dirty" tactics and their style of "anti-football".

Cruyff was at the heart of the Holland team that earned a reputation of playing Total Football in the 1970s, and the pioneer of the style that earned the Dutch the reputation of being a joy to watch. The current Holland team played in a style that was the antithesis of that last night and a disappointed Cruyff admits it saddened him to witness their thuggery.

"On Thursday they asked me from Holland 'Can we play like Inter? Can we stop Spain in the same way Mourinho eliminated Barça?'" Cruyff told El Periódico, in reference to the way Internazionale defended their way to a Champions League semi-final victory over Barcelona.

"I said no, no way at all. I said no, not because I hate this style – I said no because I thought that my country wouldn't dare to and would never renounce their style. I said no because, without having great players like those of the past, the team has its own style.

"I was wrong. Of course I'm not hanging all 11 of them by the same rope, but almost. They didn't want the ball.

"And regrettably, sadly, they played very dirty. So much so that they should have been down to nine immediately, then they made two [such] ugly and hard tackles that even I felt the damage.

"It hurts me that I was wrong in my disagreement that instead Holland chose an ugly path to aim for the title.

"This ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style, yes it served the Dutch to unsettle Spain. If with this they got satisfaction, fine, but they ended up losing. They were playing anti-football."

Cruyff has also joined in with the criticism of the referee, Howard Webb, who has been heavily attacked for the way he managed last night's stormy game.

Webb dished out 14 yellow cards – including two to send off the Holland defender John Heitinga – but Cruyff believes he could have been even firmer, and should have dished out a red card for Nigel de Jong's karate kick to the chest of Xabi Alonso as well as handing a second booking to Arjen Robben for kicking the ball away.

Cruyff added: "When we say, often, that we do not like talking about referees, it is true and, above all, because only refereeing like that last night by the Englishman Howard Webb can create in us a state of such indignation that then, yes, it is necessary to comment.

"Because you can referee wrongly, make a mistake, but what you cannot do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules.

"Not only did he not send off two Dutchmen but he also looked the other way at times when he should have involved himself.

"A World Cup final deserves great refereeing and, above all, deserves a referee who dares to do everything it means to be a judge."
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holland playing that brand a few years now but some of their fans delusional to think it is total football, despite the unattractiveness of their style, it is very effective and several months ago i had them as the dark horse to win the world cup because their brand totally disrupts the opposition style of play and leads to frustration which they then exploit.

Offline Peong

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Fellas goin real far out of their way to reason it as something other than malicious yes.
The placement of De Jong's foot does not indicate that he was attempting to do anything with the ball.
The ball was coming at head height, if he did not see Alonso, and wanted to play the ball he could put his head, jump and chest, or run back and let it drop to his foot.
He did none of those things.
The placement of his foot was perfect for planting into an opponent's chest.

Offline FF

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holland playing that brand a few years now but some of their fans delusional to think it is total football, despite the unattractiveness of their style, it is very effective and several months ago i had them as the dark horse to win the world cup because their brand totally disrupts the opposition style of play and leads to frustration which they then exploit.

it is not no coincidence that this recent holland vintage has been involved in the record for cards in a world cup final (2010) and any world cup game ever (2006).

like allyuh forget that holland v portugal world war from last time or wha... dey nasty too bad!
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Offline Bitter

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After that feast of anti - football yesterday afternoon I decided to get away from it all.
I went on a date and my companion asked me if I wanted to 'go Dutch' on the restaurant bill.
So I raked my studs down her chest, called the waiter a wanker and then left in tears.

 ;D ;D
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Offline willi

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Nightmare the first yellow was for a foul also on Iniesta... needless to say it was barely a foul if that.  Definitely not a yellow


Hard luck Holland... happy for Spain, vex it came at Holland's expense.




I need to get in touch with Paul yes... I need some lotto numbers.

You cant be serious. All the commentators called for a straight red for that tackle!

Do you even know what the f**k yuh talking about?  I'm talking about Heitinga, not DeJong... at least figure out which Man City Dutch player people talking about before yuh look to chook yuh mouth next time.

That is exactly the one I  talking bout. I watched on TF1.

Offline willi

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After that feast of anti - football yesterday afternoon I decided to get away from it all.
I went on a date and my companion asked me if I wanted to 'go Dutch' on the restaurant bill.
So I raked my studs down her chest, called the waiter a wanker and then left in tears.

 ;D ;D


Boom shots Bitter!

Offline Brownsugar

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That was the most Anti-Dutch, Anti-football, Anti-anything I ever see from a Holland side....oh how I long for another moment of brilliance from a Bergkamp or a raid on the opponents goal from back in 94 or 98 or Euro 2000 *sigh*

De Jong (or whoever the Kung Fu fighter was) shoulda find he arse in the dressing room at that point....steups!!  I cyar believe he so dotish.  And what the hell Robben was thinking to kick the ball in the net and he done on a yellow already!!!....steups!!....

......and yeah ah still depressed.... :( :(
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Offline Red Mango

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Robben hadded de keeper to beat... and didn't... he could have rounded the keeper, and tapped into an empty net...

All in all though, game done, Spain win...

Holland had their chances... and should have taken them...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 02:04:59 PM by bongonatti 11 »
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Offline Bitter

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Spain 1-0 Holland: Iniesta settles a tight game
July 12, 2010
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/12/spain-1-0-holland-iniesta-world-cup-final-tactics/



The starting line-ups


Spain are the World Champions. They were the better side and played a more positive, cohesive brand of football throughout.

There were no surprises when the team line-ups were announced just over an hour before kick-off, they were as predicted in the preview. Vicente del Bosque kept with the side that beat Germany in the semi-final, meaning Pedro Rodriguez started ahead of Fernando Torres. Holland, meanwhile, welcomed back Gregory van der Wiel and Nigel de Jong from suspension, meaning they returned to their first choice XI – as evidenced by them lining up with the numbers 1-11.

There was also no surprise in the pattern of play in the first quarter of an hour, for Spain dominated possession and were camped in the Dutch half. Bert van Marwijk’s side seemed to be inviting pressure, and Spain’s pressing when they lost the ball meant Holland were unable to construct any meaningful attacks of their own.

There seemed to be a shift in tactics from Holland after around 10 or 15 minutes – they started pressing earlier and higher up the pitch, seeking to disrupt the passing of Sergio Busquets and Xabi Alonso – the latter in particular had too much time on the ball in the opening period, and his influence declined as soon as he was closed down.

The pressing also complimented the tactics of their back four, who were playing a surprisingly high line. On three separate occasions early on, through balls nearly found David Villa in behind the Dutch defence. The problem was not necessarily the high defensive line, but the fact that there was never any pressure on the man looking to play the pass. Playing that position, Villa needs service, so when the supply was cut off, he was less visible and Holland looked more comfortable.

Holland were creating little, however. Wesley Sneijder was quiet and Arjen Robben was cutting in and running into traffic – Busquets, Alonso and Xavi all understood the need for one of them to occupy the space next to Joan Capdevilla that Robben likes to work in.

It became apparent that Holland were essentially using pure spoiling tactics, trying to physically unsettle Spain’s creative players and break up the rhythm of the game. Maybe they were influenced by Chile’s positive start in the final group game, where Spain were second best until they took the lead, but the Dutch tactics went too far. Mark van Bommel and Nigel de Jong could both have been dismissed in the first half for shocking tackles, and of the Dutch outfield players who started the game, only Dirk Kuyt and Sneijder finished without a booking. Spain were not blameless in this respect either, and it was a poor first half.

Second half

This modern Holland side aren’t used to pressing intensively, and weren’t able to do it for the entire game. In the second half they were clearly less effective in this respect, especially after Dirk Kuyt departed. “It’s very difficult to play for 90 minutes at the rhythm they imposed”, said del Bosque. “They had a great physical effort and we dominated extra time.”

But the two managers should be praised for their substitutions, as almost every switch had a broadly attacking motive. Eljero Elia for Kuyt, Cesc Fabregas for Alonso, Rafael van der Vaart for de Jong were all positive moves, and contributed to the game becoming more open and attractive in the second period.

Another del Bosque substitution was crucial – Pedro was withdrawn after a quiet start to the second half, and replaced with Jesus Navas. And then, finally, Spain had natural width and someone to run at Giovanni van Bronckhorst, who eventually had to be replaced. Navas’ delivery was as inconsistent as ever, but he did a good job by stretching the play and providing dribbling rather than one-touch passing, which opened out the game and allowed Iniesta and Xavi more space to work in. It was Navas’ run and cross that presented Villa with a golden opportunity at the far post midway through the second half, and later his run and shot deflected inches wide, into the sidenetting.

But the biggest goal threat was coming from Holland, through direct counter-attacks. The introduction of Elia meant Holland had a natural winger on the left, allowing Robben to make more direct runs in behind the defence, and he twice came close to breaking the deadlock. Spain have often looked vulnerable against pacey forwards at this tournament, and Robben’s move inside exploited this weakness.


The line-ups at the start of extra-time

Robin van Persie was playing an intelligent role by dropping deep to the left to distract the centre-backs, allowing Robben the opportunity to make runs on their blind side – once a straight ball found him and he shot straight at Casillas, another time van Persie’s flick-on put him through, but he was eased out by Puyol.

Spain eventually find a way through

Whilst Pedro started brightly and faded, Iniesta was the opposite. He was barely visible in the first half, but grew in stature later on and became the game’s most important player. Twice he found himself in good goalscoring positions in the Dutch penalty area but delayed the shot and the move broke down, but the positive for del Bosque was that the game was being dictated by him, rather than Sneijder or van Bommel.

The other key factor was the introduction of Fabregas. This allowed Xavi to drop deeper, where he could see the whole of the attacking area ahead of him, whilst Fabregas provided direct, driving runs from midfield, both on and off the ball. He had the best chance in the opening period of extra time when he went through one-on-one with Maarten Stekelenburg, though his finish was weak. Spain’s midfield now had more variety – they now had both width and direct running, and after Holland were worn down by the Spain passing earlier, they were now struggling with the more blatant attacking threat.

Maybe Spain needed Holland to go down to ten men to make the breakthrough. It’s a shame when a game is essentially decided by a red card, but considering Holland played such a physical game, it was no real surprise when Howard Webb was forced to reach for his red card. Holland were only living with Spain through fouling, and they essentially paid the price for that. Having used all three substitutes, van Marwijk was forced into a three-man defence with van Bommel dropping back to help out, which then left them exposed in front of the defence, with de Jong having departed.

Heitinga’s dismissal was when he tracked Iniesta into the box, and therefore it was probably no coincidence that after that, Iniesta found himself free to smash home the winner. The goal was fitting in that it started with a long, mazy run from Navas, and was assisted by Fabregas from an advanced midfield position. Iniesta had previously turned down those two excellent opportunities to shoot, but made no mistake this time.

It was effectively a golden goal – Holland had no energy left and were a man light, and didn’t manage to construct anything meaningful in the final four minutes. They will obviously be devastated but can have few complaints – they were second best on the day, and they failed to take their chances. Spain weren’t much better in front of goal, but when Iniesta finally found the net, a 1-0 Spain win seemed the fairest outcome. “It is harsh, but the best team won tonight”, van Marwijk conceded.

Conclusion

A disappointing final, because it was based around fouls and cards rather than technical quality or even a real tactical battle. Spain dominated the game but failed to score when Holland had eleven men on the pitch.

They eventually found a way through when they offered more of a varied attacking threat, and the impact of substitutes was a key factor. Navas and Fabregas clearly influenced the game, whilst it’s difficult to remember what Elia or van der Vaart contributed. Pressing was also key – the less Holland could do it, the more Spain created.

Spain will now go down as one of the greatest international sides in history – European Championship and World Cup holders, and an incredible record leading up to both tournaments. In both competitions they have struggled to find a perfect system going forward, but the key in their success has not been their attacking play, but their defensive ability. Seven knockout games played over the two tournaments, and seven clean sheets.
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Offline Deeks

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It was hard to see a team like Holland played that way yesterday. This team played a hell of a game against Brazil a couple days before and then come and do that against Spain. Even Gullit was disappoitment with their play. Nothing seems to satisfy Cryuff, but I held my breath and agree with him for once.

Offline Mango Chow!

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....I doesn't understand how men could come on here (or anywhere!) and try to defend de jong and holland and the way they played yesterday.  Even if Xavi Alonso or no other opposing player was within 50 yards of that ball, what player in football, do we ever see try to play the ball using a karate style jump-kick like de jong did?  NONE!  It's not even a natural move and he and all woulda played the ball differently.  Now you put an opponent in front of him and look what he do.......that is all the "intent" you need and Webb shoulda sent 'im off.   Also, the notion that an early sending-off would have spoiled the game...Spoiled it how and whose fault would that have been, the ref's fault?  Or the player?  So if Suarez woulda did the same thing he did against Ghana in the first five minutes of the game the ref shouldn'ta sent him off?  Or should the referee use that same discretion at the end of the game (since the game nearly done) as he should use at the beginning and NOT give out cards then as well?  Allyuh men good oui!  So when should van persie should have gotten a yellow card for that kick he unleash on a man in the first two or three minutes of the game or better yet, at what stage in the game should a referee really begin to enforce the rules?  In the 20th minute? The 40th? At the start of the second half? Maybe somewhere between the 65th and 75th minutes, just to keep the card count to a minimum?  What do the rules say?  I could only shake meh head at some of the shit I does see here on this forum yes.
        


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Offline Bakes

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Villa? I thought it was Xavi involved on that play, kicking the defender's leg...

wasn't a pk in my opinion.  The defender got to the ball first, Xavi (I think- not Villa) was already in kicking motion and didn't see the defender coming through and ended up kicking his foot.  The defender played the ball, not the man...so no foul. 

I think you're right that it was Xavi.  I recall the incident as you decribe... JDB apparently was getting de Spanish feed.


Under all the shit talk, I cannot understand how anybody could say that Nigel (Jet Li) DeJong kicking Alonso in his friggin chest was "unintentional".

Which part of that was accidental?
The run-up to gain the required momentum?
The jumping to gain the required elevation?
The extending of the leg to deliver the knock-out impact?
The perfect delivery of the kick (that would make Jet Li, Jackie Chan and even the late Bruce and Brandon Lee proud)?
No wait, the appologetic raising of his hands after flattening Alonso... yeah, that was the "unintentional part".

Bottom line, he should have been sent to f*ck off! Because that was perhaps the most brazen foul of the entire cup. A move like that is only acceptable in MMA. It is worse than Mike Tyson biting Evander Hollyfield's ear in a boxing match. At least Mike was fighting with Evander!

Why you doh hush yuh backside... Xabi is mih boy but nobody tell him tuh try and chest trap ah man Adidas  ;D

Offline kicker

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....I doesn't understand how men could come on here (or anywhere!) and try to defend de jong and holland and the way they played yesterday.  Even if Xavi Alonso or no other opposing player was within 50 yards of that ball, what player in football, do we ever see try to play the ball using a karate style jump-kick like de jong did?  NONE!  It's not even a natural move and he and all woulda played the ball differently.  Now you put an opponent in front of him and look what he do.......that is all the "intent" you need and Webb shoulda sent 'im off.   Also, the notion that an early sending-off would have spoiled the game...Spoiled it how and whose fault would that have been, the ref's fault?  Or the player?  So if Suarez woulda did the same thing he did against Ghana in the first five minutes of the game the ref shouldn'ta sent him off?  Or should the referee use that same discretion at the end of the game (since the game nearly done) as he should use at the beginning and NOT give out cards then as well?  Allyuh men good oui!  So when should van persie should have gotten a yellow card for that kick he unleash on a man in the first two or three minutes of the game or better yet, at what stage in the game should a referee really begin to enforce the rules?  In the 20th minute? The 40th? At the start of the second half? Maybe somewhere between the 65th and 75th minutes, just to keep the card count to a minimum?  What do the rules say?  I could only shake meh head at some of the shit I does see here on this forum yes.
        

Calm down dude.  Everyone agrees that he shoulda gotten a red card.  I eh see no one claim it wasn't a red card offense.   Nobody eh say that red card offenses early in a game are undeserved of red cards...come nah man, iz like allyuh just like tuh argue....I said that early red cards have the potential to kill a match so as a neutral spectator in retrospect I wasn't too upset that he got away with it....If yuh think Holland's football was negative yesterday, just imagine how dem fellas woulda played if they were reduced to 10 men early o' clock...as sh*tty as the match was yesterday, it woulda been even worse.  

As far as intent goes, I can't imagine that De Jong intended to fly in with a jump kick into Alonso's chest...It jus' doh make sense even for a wild man like him.  Many a time yuh see football pics of players coming at the ball all kinda how and yuh first thought is "how his foot reach dey?"... I prefer to think that it was one of those.  Unless he and Alonso had some serious beef, and real hate pass on the field off camera, I prefer tuh give him the benefit of the doubt and see it as an awkward, wreckless and ultimately horrendous challenge which fortunately didn't cause too much bodily harm.  

Alonso was able to get up and play,  De Jong didn't carry on with any more nonsense, and the better team won- All's well that ends well.  
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Offline Bakes

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I will not debate with you on this. From the time you say DeJong tackle had "no intent." Look at the youtube clip and tell me no intent. Look where the ball is and what DeJong did! Frigging Alonso is heading the ball

Quote
Sorry gentlemen we will have to agree to disagree on this one. What DeJong did has no place in football. I do not for one minute believe that the importance of the game, is any excuse. Nor do I believe that the position on the field that it occured should impact the decision (you cannot be half pregnant).

But Suarez' deliberate handball does?  Yuh trying tuh be jokey or what?

If you don't believe the importance of the game shouldn't factor into a ref's decision to penalize players then what's the point of even giving ref's discretion?

For you, Socapro, Peong, Slates et al who arguing that DeJong "intentionally" kicke Xabi in he solar plexus let's examine this:

1. I think we all would agree that intent or not, the foul is red card-worthy.
2. We all would agree that any player who intentionally jump-kick another player in the neck, should be issued a red card
3. We all would agree that most, if not all players would recognize this
4. We all would agree that after 28 minutes of play there is still a lot of football left in the game, especially when there is no score yet.
5. We all would agree that no reasonable player would want his team to play a man down for any amount of time, let alone 62 minutes.


... assuming we can agree on all of the above (if you disagree then feel free to), of what benefit would it be to DeJong or his team for him to deliberately ("with intent") commit a red card worthy foul, and gamble against the odds (the foul being so flagrant) that he'd be allowed to stay on in the game and not sent to the showers early?

Is it your argument that:
  -He lost his head, saw Xabi coming and decided, red card be damned "I running up he chest to let him know he cyah come across my midfield"?

  -Did he say "Howard Webb know how we does roll in de EPL man... he cyah send mih off fuh ah jumpkick this big World Cup final... let Alonso ketch foot in he ass"?


... or was it more likely, simply an excessively reckless play, that he didn't intend to kick him in the chest, but thru a boneheaded decision he went in high and couldn't pull out fast enough?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 06:00:59 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline just cool

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2 tactical mistakes...substituting d 2 hardworking players that should have remained

Dirk Kuyt(always creates)  & Giovanni van Bronckhorst (dat led to Van der Vaart letting Iniesta score)




In the past bringing on Elia worked, but he eh make ah note when he came on.  As for the van Bronckhorst subsitution...well I still scratching mih head.....

In fact I remarked during the game that the Spanish substitution to bring on Navas made an immediate effect on Spain's game....the subs for Holland on the other hand didn't work IMO.....
The coach shoulda started wid ellia and gave the spaniards ah suprise. they woulda had tuh change their strategy drastically, but the coach didn't have ah plan.

the man was only targeting roben roben, and when ellia came on he rarely saw the ball, that's BC they kept playing it on the right side tuh roben, he also had ellia playing ah defensive role. IMO the coach sell out the game.
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Offline Mango Chow!

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....I doesn't understand how men could come on here (or anywhere!) and try to defend de jong and holland and the way they played yesterday.  Even if Xavi Alonso or no other opposing player was within 50 yards of that ball, what player in football, do we ever see try to play the ball using a karate style jump-kick like de jong did?  NONE!  It's not even a natural move and he and all woulda played the ball differently.  Now you put an opponent in front of him and look what he do.......that is all the "intent" you need and Webb shoulda sent 'im off.   Also, the notion that an early sending-off would have spoiled the game...Spoiled it how and whose fault would that have been, the ref's fault?  Or the player?  So if Suarez woulda did the same thing he did against Ghana in the first five minutes of the game the ref shouldn'ta sent him off?  Or should the referee use that same discretion at the end of the game (since the game nearly done) as he should use at the beginning and NOT give out cards then as well?  Allyuh men good oui!  So when should van persie should have gotten a yellow card for that kick he unleash on a man in the first two or three minutes of the game or better yet, at what stage in the game should a referee really begin to enforce the rules?  In the 20th minute? The 40th? At the start of the second half? Maybe somewhere between the 65th and 75th minutes, just to keep the card count to a minimum?  What do the rules say?  I could only shake meh head at some of the shit I does see here on this forum yes.
        

Calm down dude.  Everyone agrees that he shoulda gotten a red card.  I eh see no one claim it wasn't a red card offense.   Nobody eh say that red card offenses early in a game are undeserved of red cards...come nah man, iz like allyuh just like tuh argue....I said that early red cards have the potential to kill a match so as a neutral spectator in retrospect I wasn't too upset that he got away with it....If yuh think Holland's football was negative yesterday, just imagine how dem fellas woulda played if they were reduced to 10 men early o' clock...as sh*tty as the match was yesterday, it woulda been even worse.  

As far as intent goes, I can't imagine that De Jong intended to fly in with a jump kick into Alonso's chest...It jus' doh make sense even for a wild man like him.  Many a time yuh see football pics of players coming at the ball all kinda how and yuh first thought is "how his foot reach dey?"... I prefer to think that it was one of those.  Unless he and Alonso had some serious beef, and real hate pass on the field off camera, I prefer tuh give him the benefit of the doubt and see it as an awkward, wreckless and ultimately horrendous challenge which fortunately didn't cause too much bodily harm.  

Alonso was able to get up and play,  De Jong didn't carry on with any more nonsense, and the better team won- All's well that ends well.  

  I am calm. dude. What in my post suggests otherwise?   First off, a man being sent off early doesn't guarantee a game being spoiled.  If anything, maybe holland would have tried to play football instead of jujitsu for fear of losing another man.   Secondly, a man doh have to have prior beef with somebody for a reckless challenge to be "intentional".  This ain't bloods and crips on Crenshaw Boulevard we talkin' 'bout here.  In the context of a sport like football, if I know that jumping in with a two-footed, studs-up challenge can hurt my opponent if he happen to put his foot where I land, and he then does put his foot there and get it broken, then that is intent enough.   Same with de jong yesterday.  He KNEW Xavi Alonso was coming, he KNEW that he could only hurt him with the tackle he made and he did.  Retrospect has no place while the game is being played, so Xavi being able to continue means nothing at that point, nor are the rules made up and/or enforced to please neutral observers. If anything, you want to protect the integrity and credibility of the game, if neutral observers are your target audience.  Also, at what point does the protection of the players take precedent? Again, though, I ask the question.  At what point does a referee really enforce the rules?  Because, if, according to you, sending a man off early will spoil the game, well wouldn't it "spoil" the game in the 65th minute, too?    Thing is, holland has been playing some form of negative football since the QF game against Brazil.  They just went from one extreme (diving and rolling around in agony at the slightest touch) to the other yesterday (mixed martial arts).  If anything had the potential for "spoiling" the game, it was that.    


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline SWO_TNTFAN

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 I respect Johan Cruyff argument however believe it or not if Holland played more openly they would have been CRUSHED, the scoreline would have been a blow out something like 5-2.
Now that it is out of the way, it was clear that Spain had more depth in the squad, when you can bring on a player like Cesc. Mourinho is a champion, this match showed that he can't be replicated or imitated, we were not looking at a Inter Bayern Holland but we saw Real Madrid and Barcelona. The difference between Mous team and Van Wick is simple, discipline with calmness infront of goal.

Sniejder did his job, he set up atleast two real chances that Robben should of scored, credit to the Spainish keeper to springing into action having very little to do.

Everyone wants someone to blame but the only reason is Spain were mentally prepared for this battle with a counter for counter attacking football... it was amazing. somehow they incorporated a workhorse midfield into their style.. it worked. Also I don't think Holland believed they could win this, something Mourinho would have injected before kick off, at half time and after the match itself.

Holland had their chances, it showed that number 4 for the orange was a good defender but limited in his passing, dribbling and knowing what to do in open space, he was a major liability  in the build up moving forward.. anytime he get the ball men doh know if to make a run or drop back to cover lol.. it was so clear.

Another major factor was Holland decide to play long balls which meant that Wesley was limited to a midfield position .. know why? No one else can make goal scoring crosses for the orange.

Spain won because they have not one but two best players in every position.


One thing is for sure when Xavi Alonso go back to Madrid not only will he be wearing a gold medal but a STAMP of approval from De Jong    :rotfl:

Just imagine seeing those peg marks on your chest while shaving everyday.... lol talk about leaving an impression :)

ent yuh want tuh win worle cup take kick up... ent yuh fancy and neat.. more kick in yuh ass.. is ah final..

ever thought that de jong probably wanted to get sent off? so that it will look like they had to play defensive? or a good reason why they lost? yea players when scared find ways to get out of the spotlight with make shift ... antics.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 07:44:39 PM by sHOTTA12 »

Offline Brownsugar

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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/o9WOtUL90xM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/o9WOtUL90xM</a>

cassillas and he woman  8)


Wait, wait, wait the reporter is he girlfriend??!!....aaaawww that's so sweet!!....poor thing she eh know what to do.... :) :)

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Offline ribbit

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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CekIw5moE5c" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/CekIw5moE5c</a>

lawd, de jong just one foot short of a stinkmeaner.

ah watched de game with a few pardnahs that doh really like "soccer" and after this game it was level pong. there was de jong kick. plenty miss with the attendent histrionics (mathijson, robben, capdevila). even the goal came scant moments after iniesta dove going down the touchline to get a man booked. casillas crying like he lose. then chief clown blatter at the close berate the players - ha ha real jackarse moment.

de circus heading to brazil 2014

Offline Peong

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So Bake the argument you puttin forth is that De Jong's kick was so bad, so stupid, so potentially costly, that it had to be something other than intentional.
I know you like to talk about not seeing the forest for all the trees.
That is exactly what happenin with you here, so ironic.

De Jong lost his head in that instant, that is all.
It happened before and it will happen again.