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Offline D.H.W

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Re: Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 06:28:39 AM »
I just wasted 13 mins and 51 seconds of my life.....steups!!

Lol your welcome.
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truetrini

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 06:45:31 AM »
Deeks yuh being unfair to SNL. That piece of shit video has no art, humour or intelligence to it. It just mean spirited and dopey.

That being said the reaction to is is inexcusable. JC you can’t label it as “so called muslims” because it is not about the individuals. It is about whole societies that include religion as a central theme of governance and daily life having systemic issues with education and tolerance that will always have this type of reaction.

I have been fairly equivocal in the past on the religion thing because I understand it fills an important gap in people’s lives and is intensely personal. But it should,stay personal and should never have any impact on public life. When you reference 2000 year-old texts written by people with a a fraction of the historical, scientific and sociological knowledge that we have today you will end up with a dopey, uneducated society with lack of freedom, opportunity and a low standard of living. Full stop.

This is not a Muslim thing. The christian right would have the US in the same state of idiocy if you let the Bible be the foundation for government. You just have to look at the state of education, healthcare and economics ion Bible belt states compared to more secular parts of the US.

Or you could also look at Turkey, a “westernized” mainly Muslim country  to see how well it works compared to all the others.

There is no middle ground on this shit for me anymore.

Once you come to me debating some structural societal or government issue and I referencing original thought, accumulated scientific thinking, human history and sociology and you referencing a 2000-year old book of ‘nansi stories I telling yuh franckoment to ride to f**k out.

Make some room on that wagon TT because I jumping on.



truetrini

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 06:47:13 AM »
Most Muslims living in the 14th century still.  And those who purport to be modern silent!
Fack dem all with their mythology.

Mohammad married a child..let JC and de rest try dey best to dispute that and he also made his adopted son divorce his wife becasue he see she and found het yummy.

Fack dat shit

Offline Dutty

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 08:29:09 AM »
Make some room on that wagon TT because I jumping on.


TT ridin ah atheist unicycle,,,it eh ha no room
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 02:09:34 PM »
Boy you lookin for some men to cyber bun dong Flex and TM embassy or wha?


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Offline just cool

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 04:44:43 PM »
JDB, first off yuh can't compare islam with no other belief system in the world today, bc islam also caters to a wide range of the human condition. governmental, spirituality, judicial, social interaction, business to etiquette. in arabic islam is known as a deen (diin) which would means more than anything else in the english translation (a way of life/ life style).

the quran unlike the bible, has one author, and in all those pages there are guide lines dealing with most aspects of the basic needs of humankind. the bible mainly the new testament, talks mostly of apocalyptic events and preparing for the great beyond, whereas the quran has more of a balance approach to life.

it addresses the main aspects of a social setting providing answers for the problems that normally plague societies, it legislates, it prioritize, it advocates for order and justice, it adjudicates, it governs, there are so many things that islam offers the society that cristiandom and judism utterly lack.

some people may say that it intrudes on individual rights, and could be viewed as totalitarianistic in nature, which is true, and here's where the two headed monster rares it's ugly head!

for centuries in the muslim world, most their leaders who themselves were totalitarians used islam as a political system in which to govern the masses with an iron fist, but they totally ignored the other aspects of the "deen" adhering only on the political and spiritual aspects, which created more of a problem than a solution.

what we're seeing today is nothing new in the muslim world, this has been going on for centuries off and on. as for what you addressed as being backward, or the dark ages rhetoric of (religion), i hope you know that the term "dark ages" did not apply to the islamic world?

as ah matter of fact that term was coined by the europeans to describe their own condition in that period in time. during the "eropean dark ages" muslims were @ the pinnicle of their glory days with bagdad being the epicenter for learning and the sciences, it was an islamically runned state under the abassid empire.

 it's a known fact that religion did not affect or hamper the advancement of this society, as a matter of fact incredibly great minds issued out of such societies like the abassid ruled bagdad and andelusia who were for the most part muslims.

minds like ibin ishaq al kindi a polymath scientist, one of the greatest minds of the 9th century. thabit ibin qurra one of the greatest mathematicians of all time and a contemporary of al kindi. abbas ibn firnas a great scientist and inventor, abu bakar zakariya al razi was a versitile scientist who was an expert on many subjects, he was the one who identified measles and his studies lead to the realization that fever was a part of the body defense mechanism.

then we have ibn arabi, my faovorite, astronomer , astrologer, poet and sage, this man identified all the planet in our solar system even before galeleo's invention of the telescope, and all these men were religious, as ppl like to call it, and lived in a religious islamic state at the time.

all this talk about religion being the opium of the masses, and had not the western societies not move away from the church and became secularist the society would be in stagnation and arrested development is a blatant lie, and a ploy of the modernist to push their godless agenda in schools and university, in books and on the mainstream media.

the fact iz some of the greatest minds of all time came out the church, synogogues and mosques, and at a time when europe was in darkness is proof that religion does not arrest progress, it's just that the media have an interest in maligning certain religions hence the reason for all this propagation of showing up islam in a complete and utta dogmatic light.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 10:09:38 PM by just cool »
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Offline JDB

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2012, 05:31:50 AM »

JC what you describing is religion as an abstract concept. As a guide to lifestyle and morals inspired by altruistic teaching/god etc. In practice it is, and always has been a social, economic, political institution run by men, either believing or claiming divine inspiration to exert power in society.

It all well and good to say “it is not the faith, is the people in charge” but if the people in charge always corrupt what is the point of the religion. This is not unique to Islam the catholic church from year dot, or as soon as it had the power to exert influence, has been the same, committing acts that are anathema to what you would think is a benevolent faith.

Also you can cherry pick individuals of any faith or non-faith and cite their achievements. All that does is make them exceptions. The customs of the general society is a better measure of the influence of The Religion. You can’t deny that what you see in the Middle East is the result of an excessively dogmatic adherence to religion that would not prosper in a free-thought, open sharing of ideas environment. You would only require two seconds of original thought to figure out that so many of the religion-inspired customs and practices retarding the society.
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Offline just cool

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2012, 03:06:22 AM »

JC what you describing is religion as an abstract concept. As a guide to lifestyle and morals inspired by altruistic teaching/god etc. In practice it is, and always has been a social, economic, political institution run by men, either believing or claiming divine inspiration to exert power in society.

It all well and good to say “it is not the faith, is the people in charge” but if the people in charge always corrupt what is the point of the religion. This is not unique to Islam the catholic church from year dot, or as soon as it had the power to exert influence, has been the same, committing acts that are anathema to what you would think is a benevolent faith.

Also you can cherry pick individuals of any faith or non-faith and cite their achievements. All that does is make them exceptions. The customs of the general society is a better measure of the influence of The Religion. You can’t deny that what you see in the Middle East is the result of an excessively dogmatic adherence to religion that would not prosper in a free-thought, open sharing of ideas environment. You would only require two seconds of original thought to figure out that so many of the religion-inspired customs and practices retarding the society.

Cherry pick what?? boy, this was ah movement that lasted for centuries! the post islamic arabs, persians and turks were the pioneers of medicine and the sciences when western europeans were going without showers for months and living under deplorable and unsanitary conditions.

you don't have to take my word for it go look it up! the muslims went to spain and gave them a wealth of knowledge and show them how to live civil.

your beef is not with out dated methods, but rather with religion itself and you also have modernist views, and who's to say they are better than what came before. you should just say how you really feel without complicating the issue, that religion gives you the creeps and yuh prefer the secularist ways of the west, but who's to say that the world is better for it?

if you was to be totally honest, you would see that we have worst problem than what we had before when the world was less tame. our planet is dying a slow death, poverty is as wide spread as it has ever been in any other time in our history, the only thing IMO that is way better is medical science, and travel, and even then we pay ah stiff price for technology, i've yet to see medical science making break throughs with menacing illnesses, matter of fact, sickness is moreso treated than cured, where's the progress in that?

another thing, talking bout out dated methods, democracy is an ancient greek concept, which was passed on to the romans and then finally the west, you would think by now that if westerners were sooo progressive, why haven't they figured out better ways to govern their societies other than democracy, yuh know why, BC it's ah white construct, and it's ah fact, not that most ppl would admit to it, that the west is fueled by sentiments of white supremacy, rather than progression and their main agenda is to marginalized, destroy or not acknowledge any other ideals other than their own.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 07:25:40 AM by just cool »
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Offline JDB

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2012, 06:59:54 AM »
JC it is not hard to conceive or understand that the post-Islamist middle east was as prosperous or even more prosperous even as recently as 500-800 years ago.


The middle east has always prospered from being in a location that allowed the interaction of all the old cultures, Africa, India, Europe, Asia, much more so then Europe. That exchange of culture and ideas drove the success of those societies for thousands of years.


Before the reformation the Islamists states would have been no more disadvantaged by religion than the catholic “governed” European states and they more than held their own.


Unfortunately, post-reformation and post-renaissance Europe asked itself questions about religious doctrine and has been able to gradually move away from some plainly stupid and ignorant doctrines that result in religious wars, witch hunts and a backward devotion to religion.


Middle-eastern states have not asked those questions, or been able to ask those questions and thus who have states still run by religious charlatans, a lack of self-governance, a lack of freedom, poor outcomes in education and a lack of rational thought that results in things like women getting punished for being raped and “honour killings”.
These are not ideas that are “culturally different” or “understandable because of a different value system” they are objectively backward and unjustifiable.


As for Democracy being outdated we somewhat in agreement. The Greeks provide the foundations of democracy and it has been implemented in many forms across time. I do not believe that humans are democratic by nature; there is always the desire to look out for oneself. We accept the necessity of being part of a larger society but within that society it is always human nature to enhance and enrich oneself even at the expense of peers. This is why ancient and older systems always ended up with limited individual freedom, whether a tribe leader, King, feudal lord, dictator, consul you always find people are eager to take power at the expense of a more “democratic” form of governance.


As a result democratic and republican systems always end up having an oligarchy that corrupts the system. The systems also get calcified over time with laws that contradict or pervert the original rules of the system and make individuals have less democratic power over time. Eventually the system stops functioning effectively and you either lose the democratic/republican aspect of it and become an autocratic state (as in the end of the Roman republic), you become so dysfunctional that other states prey on you (as in the partition of Poland) or you have a revolution, redraft your society and start over (numerous examples but it often happens after a state become autocratic).


I believe that states should have regular constitutional congresses to stay fresh. They probably won’t have the majorities necessary to get consensus on constitutional changes but the questions about what people want for their society will be asked and put into the public discourse. The people will know what their leaders want for society and if it is at odds with their goals and it would provide impetus for change, political or otherwise.


You also mention the state of the world today in relation to the course of history. To that I would say that as bad as things are today we are still on that constant curve of human improvement. All the poverty, war and BS of today are still an improvement over anytime in human history. For example we live at a time when the insanity of conflicts like WWI and WWII are incomprehensible to us. The world is smaller and less fragmented; we have more information and more freedom generally. Things still shitty but they moving on, even in them disadvantaged religious states. The point making there is that the progress there would be sooo much faster if not for the dotish adherence to religion.
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Offline kaliman2006

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2012, 07:11:24 AM »
This is a very good debate on a very sensitive topic. I am inclined to think that the furore over the release of the amateur film production was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. Here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291875937965762.html

Offline just cool

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Re: Innocence of Muslims
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2012, 08:10:37 AM »
JC it is not hard to conceive or understand that the post-Islamist middle east was as prosperous or even more prosperous even as recently as 500-800 years ago.


The middle east has always prospered from being in a location that allowed the interaction of all the old cultures, Africa, India, Europe, Asia, much more so then Europe. That exchange of culture and ideas drove the success of those societies for thousands of years.


Before the reformation the Alarmist's states would have been no more disadvantaged by religion than the catholic “governed” European states and they more than held their own.


Unfortunately, post-reformation and post-renaissance Europe asked itself questions about religious doctrine and has been able to gradually move away from some plainly stupid and ignorant doctrines that result in religious wars, witch hunts and a backward devotion to religion.


Middle-eastern states have not asked those questions, or been able to ask those questions and thus who have states still run by religious charlatans, a lack of self-governance, a lack of freedom, poor outcomes in education and a lack of rational thought that results in things like women getting punished for being raped and “honour killings”.
These are not ideas that are “culturally different” or “understandable because of a different value system” they are objectively backward and unjustifiable.


As for Democracy being outdated we somewhat in agreement. The Greeks provide the foundations of democracy and it has been implemented in many forms across time. I do not believe that humans are democratic by nature; there is always the desire to look out for oneself. We accept the necessity of being part of a larger society but within that society it is always human nature to enhance and enrich oneself even at the expense of peers. This is why ancient and older systems always ended up with limited individual freedom, whether a tribe leader, King, feudal lord, dictator, consul you always find people are eager to take power at the expense of a more “democratic” form of governance.


As a result democratic and republican systems always end up having an oligarchy that corrupts the system. The systems also get calcified over time with laws that contradict or pervert the original rules of the system and make individuals have less democratic power over time. Eventually the system stops functioning effectively and you either lose the democratic/republican aspect of it and become an autocratic state (as in the end of the Roman republic), you become so dysfunctional that other states prey on you (as in the partition of Poland) or you have a revolution, redraft your society and start over (numerous examples but it often happens after a state become autocratic).


I believe that states should have regular constitutional congresses to stay fresh. They probably won’t have the majorities necessary to get consensus on constitutional changes but the questions about what people want for their society will be asked and put into the public discourse. The people will know what their leaders want for society and if it is at odds with their goals and it would provide impetus for change, political or otherwise.


You also mention the state of the world today in relation to the course of history. To that I would say that as bad as things are today we are still on that constant curve of human improvement. All the poverty, war and BS of today are still an improvement over anytime in human history. For example we live at a time when the insanity of conflicts like WWI and WWII are incomprehensible to us. The world is smaller and less fragmented; we have more information and more freedom generally. Things still shitty but they moving on, even in them disadvantaged religious states. The point making there is that the progress there would be sooo much faster if not for the dotish adherence to religion.

Breds i was willing to relent until i read this. bro please! if you think technology has taken us anywhere then think again.

right now if you asked any conservationist if they would rather have the world the way it was 200 yrs ago before the industrial evolution/ revolution or or today (which is the heights of consumption and industrialization) they would emphatically exclaimed the former.

you need to get with it fam. bc of industrializing and commerce the world has almost depleted of a quarter of her natural resources, and in another five hundred yrs we would not be able to keep up with this rate of consumption for commercial gain, in other words, this is a short run, real short! we have exhausted the planet of her goodies and we've only been @ it for a little over a century. some improvement.

most of the things you mention above that you take concern with are sociological and moral issues, which for the most part does not change the price of cocoa or hamper societies of thriving, sorry to break it to you, but this has been goin on since time immemorial, if anything islam/ muhammad came with solutions to these problem rather than encouraging them.

he advised his follower to abandon their misogynistic ways ( from beating their women, raping their slave girls, burying their girl children alive), he also gave them laws on how to deal with and treat their spouses which most of his followers found to be emasculating,

shortly after his passing these ppl went back to their old ways, mixing a lot of their pagan ancient culture and rituals with the principles of islam.

the fact iz muhammad did not sanction honor killings or female genital mutilation is testament as to how cultural practices could make it's way into any text, this was prevalent in the ancient cultures of africa, middle asia and south asia and it was a hard habit to break, and evidently these are the ppl who for the most part make up the muslim world.

these ppl decided on maintaining it and slowly it made it's way into islamic traditions. you will be surprised to learn the things that purely belong to a particular culture as opposed to the original text. interpolations, regrettably has made it's way in over the course of time into most scriptures and has tainted them forever, but this should not even be an issue.

like i said before, the west and the modernist have a way of embellishing their most venerated forefathers ( the greeks and the romans) but barely talk about their taboos and short comings, but on the other hand quick to highlight the intricate social short comings of other ancient cultures, hence democracy is still used and cherished today in it's purest form, though it be thousands of yrs old with all it's fault and all.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 08:21:58 AM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.