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Author Topic: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.  (Read 5742 times)

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Offline Tallman

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2010, 03:21:27 PM »
To another question: What are the laws in T&T, as far as guns and gun ownership?

CLICK HERE (pdf) for the full text of T&T's Firearms Act.

I think that’s a good point.  An aside question: Does T&T have littering laws?

CLICK HERE (pdf) for the full text of T&T's Litter Act.
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Offline Ray Agostini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2010, 04:19:09 PM »

Very much so... and a very public anti-littering campaign.  There is lax enforcement however, as littering is something inculcated into our beings as a society.  Consequently even those tasked with enforcing the law are themselves among the biggest abusers of said law.

From what I'm observing in Oz these days, this seems to be the case here too. All sorts of laws are being flouted, and the police often turn a blind eye to offences that would once have attracted speedy fines, such as for littering. Years ago bicycle helmet laws were once strictly enforced; now it's a rarity to see someone riding without a helmet pulled up by police (I know of one recent case where an Indian university student was, and he accused police of racism). People can also get away with swearing at police, something that would never have happened in the '70s. So what I think is happening is a slow drift to more social chaos overall, and that can lead in some cases to a vigilante society.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 10:00:03 PM by Ray Agostini »

Offline Ray Agostini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2010, 04:22:45 PM »


CLICK HERE (pdf) for the full text of T&T's Firearms Act.

I think that’s a good point.  An aside question: Does T&T have littering laws?

CLICK HERE (pdf) for the full text of T&T's Litter Act.

Thanks for the links. I can see that the firearms laws are very strict, so obviously the illegals and policing of those laws is where it seems to be breaking down.

I'll read the litter laws later and maybe comment on that later.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2010, 10:09:04 PM »
Tallman spot on as usual... thanks for the links  :beermug:


Ray... take yuh time, we eh going nowhere, lol

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2010, 10:20:16 PM »
Ray... take yuh time, we eh going nowhere, lol

Unless yuh name is Joel Bailey..... :devil: :devil: ;D  ;D  :angel:
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Offline Ray Agostini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2010, 10:30:12 PM »
I’ve just read the “Litter Act”. I’m impressed with the thoroughness and detail with which these laws were written up, yet they seem so far from the reality.

The bottom line is the T&T murder rate, and why people have to live in so much fear? And perusing another thread here, the amount of precautions one has to take to protect oneself, while not unreasonable in some circumstances, seems to border on paranoia in others.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think this is a reflection on all the people of T&T, and I’m looking into this more so I can understand the root causes of the problems. It is quite possible that one day we in Oz will be dealing with the very same problems, on the very same level. In fact, I think this will be the case.       

Offline Bakes

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2010, 10:38:43 PM »
Ray... take yuh time, we eh going nowhere, lol

Unless yuh name is Joel Bailey..... :devil: :devil: ;D  ;D  :angel:

Joel let Trinity Cross run him LOL


------------------------------


Ray, the root of our problem is drugs... which begat the proliferation of guns we seeing now.  Of course a very good argument would be that corruption or "bobol" as we call it in TnT is father to them both.  Corrupt/ineffective law enforcement may yet win out. If Oz has the right combination of these brewing then yes, trouble may be on the horizon.  If not, then I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Offline Ray Agostini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2010, 10:57:17 PM »
Ray, the root of our problem is drugs... which begat the proliferation of guns we seeing now.  Of course a very good argument would be that corruption or "bobol" as we call it in TnT is father to them both.  Corrupt/ineffective law enforcement may yet win out. If Oz has the right combination of these brewing then yes, trouble may be on the horizon.  If not, then I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Bake, drugs is a major problem here. The simple fact is that the police cannot police everything. They are overburdened, and losing hope fast. They now only resort to solving major crimes, and it's a growing trend that they will ignore "minor" crimes. I'm a cab driver (I've been a professional driver; trucks, driving instructor, cabs, for 23 years), and last week I had a $50 runner, and asked the base to call police. The first response of one of my workmates was, "f**k the police, they don't care".   And sure enough, when the police arrived, they basically said, "consider your money lost". I had a name and address, but this was never followed up. Nothing was followed up. Their attitude was, basically, "don't bother us with this shit", "we have more important things to attend to". So cab drivers have totally lost faith in "the process of law", and many of them take "matters" into their own hands.

I'm afraid I don't see "law enforcement" winning out.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2010, 11:27:56 PM »
Bake, drugs is a major problem here. The simple fact is that the police cannot police everything. They are overburdened, and losing hope fast. They now only resort to solving major crimes, and it's a growing trend that they will ignore "minor" crimes. I'm a cab driver (I've been a professional driver; trucks, driving instructor, cabs, for 23 years), and last week I had a $50 runner, and asked the base to call police. The first response of one of my workmates was, "f**k the police, they don't care".   And sure enough, when the police arrived, they basically said, "consider your money lost". I had a name and address, but this was never followed up. Nothing was followed up. Their attitude was, basically, "don't bother us with this shit", "we have more important things to attend to". So cab drivers have totally lost faith in "the process of law", and many of them take "matters" into their own hands.

I'm afraid I don't see "law enforcement" winning out.

Stuff like that real infuriating to me... I was having lunch with a judge today and she was telling me this story that happened to her yearsss ago when she was in law school... nothing too serious, but it reflects your experience.  She stopped at this state-owned rest station on the highway late one night and went inside.  As she coming back out she see ah ole fella lean up on she car and her instincts tell her to leave the area.  So she turne on her heels to go back inside... the man called out to her and apologized asking if that was her car and apologizing for startling her.  He moved away and as she climbed into the car he opened his trench coat and started masturbating at her.  She drove for a while then stopped and called the police to report it... they essentially brushed her off and asked her what she wanted them to do about it.

You would think that our "public servants" would pay a bit more attention to the "service" part of their jobs... hope springs eternal.  Sorry to hear about your situation with the passenger though, nobody likes being cheated.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 12:52:30 AM by Bake n Shark »

Offline Ray Agostini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2010, 12:12:31 AM »

You would think that our "public servants" would pay a bit more attention to the "service" part of their jobs... hope springs eternal. 

The only worse thing I can think of other than a lawless society, is a police state, such as existed in the Soviet Union, and Germany. We don't need a police state. And we need lawmakers and law enforcers with brains, and a sense of justice.  They must consider both the causes and consequences of crime, and mete out justice after having weighed all things. That's a big ask. If people steal because they are hungry, then mitigation of the crime is in order. If they steal because they want to get rich, or just for the "kick" of it, then they should bear the consequences.

The bottom line to all of this is that we need wise judges, wise lawmakers, and wise law-enforcers. I haven't lost any sleep over the lost $50, and on several occasions I've asked police to let go runners who were caught, as I felt sorry for them (that's when the police just happened to on the "crime scene").  What I would have liked is the opportunity to decide whether to prosecute after police apprehension, and that I was denied. Still, I feel no antagonism to the fellow. I can part with $50, but I wonder if he can part with his destructive drug habits? And what led him to this sorry state. I don't know the personal agonies that may possess him like demons, or his grudge against society for feeling "unequal", and treated unfairly.

What this means, in a nutshell, is that we should seek a society where that corny phrase, "and justice for all", is equally applied. People who do radical things to hurt society, are only acting out of their own real or perceived sense of injustice to themselves.

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2010, 12:19:20 AM »
Crime would never stop in trinbago not when there is known drug dealers in our society and nobody is doing anything about it .

 jus imagine I know of a man dealing drugs the police know he dealing drugs and that dealer get a bar license so he can wash his money and bank it .

I know of a drugstore in Sando the police and politicians  know the drug store selling MX , ICI , etc , etc , to people and up to this day the owner int go to jail and if not it could be still happening right now .

I know of a Syrian store on Mucurapo st Sando big time drug dealer the police know they dealing the politicians know not one day these dealers ever spent in jail .

But you know what is most 4cup about this is when the citizens know and they do notting about it like if the people do not know their rights as a citizen complain to your counciler your mayor until something is done .
  
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Offline just cool

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2010, 05:30:48 AM »
Bake, drugs is a major problem here. The simple fact is that the police cannot police everything. They are overburdened, and losing hope fast. They now only resort to solving major crimes, and it's a growing trend that they will ignore "minor" crimes. I'm a cab driver (I've been a professional driver; trucks, driving instructor, cabs, for 23 years), and last week I had a $50 runner, and asked the base to call police. The first response of one of my workmates was, "f**k the police, they don't care".   And sure enough, when the police arrived, they basically said, "consider your money lost". I had a name and address, but this was never followed up. Nothing was followed up. Their attitude was, basically, "don't bother us with this shit", "we have more important things to attend to". So cab drivers have totally lost faith in "the process of law", and many of them take "matters" into their own hands.

I'm afraid I don't see "law enforcement" winning out.

Stuff like that real infuriating to me... I was having lunch with a judge today and she was telling me this story that happened to her yearsss ago when she was in law school... nothing too serious, but it reflects your experience.  She stopped at this state-owned rest station on the highway late one night and went inside.  As she coming back out she see ah ole fella lean up on she car and her instincts tell her to leave the area.  So she turne on her heels to go back inside... the man called out to her and apologized asking if that was her car and apologizing for startling her.  He moved away and as she climbed into the car he opened his trench coat and started masturbating at her.  She drove for a while then stopped and called the police to report it... they essentially brushed her off and asked her what she wanted them to do about it.

You would think that our "public servants" would pay a bit more attention to the "service" part of their jobs... hope springs eternal.  Sorry to hear about your situation with the passenger though, nobody likes being cheated.
It seems like police all over the world have this "doh bother meh wid dis small stuff kinda mentality", but what they don't know is, small stuff almost all the time escalates into big stuff.

tuh tell yuh the truth, i real hate police, but not for the same reasons as most young black ppl do. i believe in law and order and rarely support lawlessness except for ah lil weed here and there, and ah lil numbers from time tuh time, but the real serious things that affect society , i tend tuh frown on.

the reason i hate cops is BC they feel  for the most part, that they are untouchable, they could do whatever they want and get away with it, and to me this is unbecoming of ah law enforcement agent. IMO they should respect the law more than any other being, that's BC they are the first line of law enforcement, but that's clearly not the case.

the last time i went home for carnival, on my way back in the cow shed ah two young fellas sitting @ ah desk as soon as passengers exit immigration,one of them called out to me in the most despicable manner, " ehyy come boy" i ask him who he was, then he flashed ah badge, " weh yuh hah dey, yuh have anyting eligaal in yuh bag/ carry on" i answered obviously not, then they went through my bag and then gestured wid ah hand movement like they were chasing ah fly, tuh go ahead.

after thinking about it Bc of how violated i felt, ah little while later i approached them and i asked one of the unprofessional pr!cks very calmly " do you talk tuh the sabgas and the de-silvers the way you did to me" he then asked me if i wanted tuh miss my flight and spend the night in jail, i replied, " why, BC i thought your conduct was totally unprofessional and out of order?"

he then asked for my travel docs (ah guess to pull rank and continue to humiliate me) i told him i can't do that, "you are not an immigration officer, and my docs doesn't belong to the govt of TNT". i then bluffed the dumb arse and told him i worked for the state department and flashed my U.S. passport and federal ID, yuh shoulda seen how this dumb cock head boil down like bajjee,

 he said he was only doing his job, i then told him that i would have ah word wid the minister of legal affairs about his conduct and demanded his name, not to mention that it ended peacefully after being threatened BC i stood up against his bullying.

it's ah shame how most trinis in authority treat first world foreigners better than their own ppl, and had i not lied and told him that my daddy was bigger and stronger than his daddy, jah knows what woulda happened wid I.

 IMO most cops regardless of nationality are big time bullies! and i just wanted this pr!ck tuh feel vulnerable and violated as i felt, and this was not the first time it happened to me either with cops in the cow shed.
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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2010, 10:03:34 AM »
Quote
It seems like police all over the world have this "doh bother meh wid dis small stuff kinda mentality", but what they don't know is, small stuff almost all the time escalates into big stuff.

tuh tell yuh the truth, i real hate police, but not for the same reasons as most young black ppl do. i believe in law and order and rarely support lawlessness except for ah lil weed here and there, and ah lil numbers from time tuh time, but the real serious things that affect society , i tend tuh frown on.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  oh gardo, meh ribs  hahahahahahahahahahahahaha  yuh is de besstesss...by facking far, yuh is de bessstess



on a side note:

Islam does support weed and gambling?  Jes axeing eh

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2010, 12:47:03 PM »
Perception or REALITY check?

Fact: for the past  two weeks I have been monitoring the Newsweek papers and it's alarming to read of the almost predictable daily  murders which are occurring!!!

Perceptions from an outsider you say or reality and fact of what is?  I wait with anxious anticipation for the government's plan to reduce crime ( Oh sh,,,t..... I guess the plan is to hire two foreign 'robot COPS' TO COME IN AND KICK ASS  :whip: :whip: :whistling: :whistling: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

Offline kounty

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2010, 11:59:17 AM »
in a sense, mr agostini, you are to blame. t&t has suffered from an outflux of migrants for some time - presently t&t has one of the largest net migration rates in the world. the only trinbagonians returning are either patriots or deported criminals :/  can a  civil society develop and sustain itself when there remains a relatively unimpeded avenue to the "First World" for its best and brightest?

man... I really agree with this dread. and is something on my mind recently.  sorry to the people who have inferiority complex or whatever.  I ain't no american citizen and probably never will be and not on the biggin up american bandwagon... but babylon is a great country dreads in case you didn't know.  and it have a lot of reasons, but none of them is the shit that show on tv.  one of the main ones I believe it is so is that over 90% of the people in babylon highly skilled.   Down to the man beggin you for a dollar at the side of the street, could forking juggle, or play good songs on a guitar, or read many books.  I think people more connected to ideas..so when you get down to comparing societies (which is what this thread is about)

Recently, for the first time in my adult life, I've spent a significant amount of time in Trinidad and I have to say that trinis can be very inconsiderate.

Customer service is poor because too many people have no respect for other people's time and energy.  A high percentage of drivers are assholes.  People litter and don't feel badly about it.  Garbage trucks passing multiple times per week yet it is easier to dump rubbish in the river.

The original poster may not have had things like this in mind but I think it's all indicative of a general kinda lawlessness/thoughtlessness that is now manifesting itself as violence.  I can't really say if the underlying phenomenon is relatively new or not.

Maybe others will find this chain of reasoning far-fetched. 

I think is education. Not no book sense in the sense of learnin shit just for the sake of havin shit known.  but really knowing shit so that you could see how that connect to your life right now, and what that would mean for the future of your self, or your children, or even jus what is the most efficient way too do something.


But to change that is a whole shakeup of society.  change what is the point of going to secondary school. why the americns make almost all thier kids stay till 12 grade - upper 6 - where the standard would be lower that maybe in trinidad upper 6, but you have almost everybody staying in school long enough to reach that level of education.  why do we want to just reward the brightest students in trinidad and leave the rest to fall by the side? (same thing we not thinking in the long term, or not thinking to benefit society as a whole).


I was thiking the easiest solution in the short term for trinidad instead of kamla trying to get New Yorkers back to trini, is to brain drain the other caribbean islands.  have a nice setup in place where if you have a bachelors degree and you from the caribbean - citizenship easy easy - standard and in print. Trinidad ent to big so in a few yeaers we could probably think about federating again (if we grow enough globally to support maybe just the lower islands).
tryin to figure out what we could learn from babywrong, and I think this article:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/01/pf/college/Americas_brainiest_cities/index.htm?hpt=T2
mention that 1/4 of us adults over 25 years old have the equivalent of a bachelors or higher.

Offline Socafan

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Re: Foreign Perceptions (or misconceptions) of Crime in Trinidad.
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2010, 05:35:20 PM »
Recently, for the first time in my adult life, I've spent a significant amount of time in Trinidad and I have to say that trinis can be very inconsiderate.

Customer service is poor because too many people have no respect for other people's time and energy.  A high percentage of drivers are assholes.  People litter and don't feel badly about it.  Garbage trucks passing multiple times per week yet it is easier to dump rubbish in the river.

The original poster may not have had things like this in mind but I think it's all indicative of a general kinda lawlessness/thoughtlessness that is now manifesting itself as violence.  I can't really say if the underlying phenomenon is relatively new or not.

Maybe others will find this chain of reasoning far-fetched. 

I tend to agree alot with this however, recently I have been looking at how people behave here in TN. It not that different than T&T, however I think the amount of laws in place and the effective implimentation and the execution of punishment for breaking these laws is what seperate "us" from "them". Now my theory is not based on any factual research just observation.

The last time in T&T a maxi conductor finish drinking an Apple J and just toss the bottle outside the maxi.
In the States here, me and a pardner driving through GA after coaching, he finish eat and toss the bag with the cup and all the wrappers outside the window just so, not even a second thought. Right away I assimilated these two situations.

Driving down the road here in the states and people casually just toss trash out their vehicles. It perplex me, as I thought you "should" expect such behavior in T&T, but not here. My daughter and her class had a recycling assignment where they walk along the street of their school and picked up trash. I out there on a Saturday morning like work release picking up trash. You know Monday morning when dropping her off at school, the place full ah trash again.

Same thing after a soccer game, the people will get up and leave all they McDonalds wrapping and cups, Gatorade bottles, sunflower seed pack and shell and water bottles just so on the ground. It amazes me that such supposedly educated people does things like this.

Which for me shows that the difference with crime here and crime in T&T is the manner in which crime is dealt with. Here punishment is swift and final, whereas back home you may or may get caught. Taking a chance here to committ a crime is a real chance, hence people will think longer before doing something. In T&T you cannot see a police to save your life, therefore would-be criminals are more likely to become criminals.

I hope you all understand where I'm going with this, as I've realized that people are people, and what seperate some people from other people is the manner in which they are "guided" daily.

Elan.....Yuh spot on. Our problem is our policing and justice system has not kept pace with our criminal activity. Policing in particular is troublingly underfunded(have to be why yuh cyar see a police, not enough) and ineffective(poorly trained and managed). So there is little fear of consequences from crime.

Case in point, something as simple as.. I up Maracas last year, pull up and park on the side of the road. Cars park all along the road. About every 40' or so is a no parking sign. Police all over the place..road block or something so. I cross the road going by Richard's. So I on kicks, see ah policeman and ask him, "is alright to park there or wha'?",because everybody park there too. Hear what the illustrious member of TTPS, one of our nation's finest go say, "No parking means no parking!!, then he pause and after he think about it a little, de man continue, "if yuh eh park right under the sign yuh should be OK"!!.  ??? So the no parking is only for the exact spot where the signpole is stuck in the ground. Buh we could park in between the signs. I nealy dead! True, true story!!

We have crisis of management in the country, and poor crime control is just one of it's manifestations.
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