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Offline 100% Barataria

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Criminalizing the Society
« on: December 19, 2010, 09:00:18 PM »
TT Guardian
By Dr. Selwyn R. Cudjoe
December 15, 2010

I always believe that the demise of the Grenada Revolution occurred because of the hotheadedness of forty-year olds who had little knowledge of the world and people. They knew theory aplenty but were not seasoned by common sense and wisdom that only comes with age. One is seeing a similar tendency in the UNC-led coalition called the People’s Partnership.

Anywhere you look you can see and hear Anand Ramlogan, the attorney general, who believes that every social problem can be fixed by bombast, the police presence or burdensome laws that infringe upon people’s freedom. Although it is true a T&T government only needs a Prime Minister and an Attorney General to exist, Mr. Ramlogan seems to feel that he is the law of land aided no doubt by the Prime Minister.

Image his fas’ness. Telling Jack to shut up. Well Jack really reach! A young man merely forty years old; holding his first substantive post in the society. Yet, he believes he could speak to anyone as he pleases. Jack, it seems, is merely the latest victim of his intemperance.

And what is Jack’s crime? He believes he should run his ministry as the law of the land demands.

It is important to understand that certain realities and realignments come with ‘Indian Time Ah Come’. One is faced with an essentially litigious mindset that believes that the law and the appeal to the law are the only ways to solve a problem. If yo’ mother take yo’ land; take she to court. If yo’ brother bodder yo, take him to the Privy Council. No one in T&T has taken as many constitutional motions to the Privy Council as have Ramesh Maharaj and Anand Rmalogan.

At the end of day Ramlogan would have used more English lawyers to interfere in our business than any previous attorney general. Whiteness, it seems, confers a mantra of authority. If a local problem is too intractable call down a white man. He has the answer. It’s a holdover from colonialism; a certain mindset that sees all virtues in whiteness and every vice in blackness.

A problem arises with the CAL board. Bring in a white man to solve the problem. There is too much murder, go back to the days of slavery; hang them high and bring back the cat-o-nine tail. “Beat dem bad and dey bound to surrender.” Forget the socio-economic or even cultural conditions that may be at the base of this behavior.

Under the current law, a person (not a suspected gang member, a suspected thief, or a suspected swindler) can be detained by our police without charge for as much as five days. Ramlogan observes that the present law allows that “if there are reasonable grounds to suspect a citizen of committing a crime, [a police] can arrest and detain [him or her] for such a time as reasonable having regards to surrounding facts and circumstances.”

Reasonable by Ramlogan’s definition “could be 48 hours; it could be five days.” Extending this logic, it could be five months or even five years. As it is asked generally in American jurisprudence, “What are the limits of this standard?” Should any law be so designed to give the police unfettered discretion to restrict a person’s freedom?

The class bias of this legislation is obvious which renders it unconstitutional. Ramlogan’s rationale for this draconian measure reads as follows:

“If you choose the bling culture and the sneakers culture. If you choose to laugh at a feller who is studying hard to reach somewhere but you want to wear a Puma and a Nike with air socks then the time has come for society to set you on a straight path and that is what this legislation is all about.”

The target of this piece of legislation is the black boy in the ghetto whom I presume prefers not to study; laughs at those who study hard; prefers Nikes and Pumas; and is associated with what can be called gang culture.

I did not see the same urgency to detain anyone for five days, five months, or five years who, it can be reasonably assumed, fleeced the public of monies that equated a million times the cost of a Puma (about $1,000) or a Nike. Such citizens continue to live large; enjoying the largess of their ill-gotten gains; and continue to move in respectable international circles. Yet the little black boy, poor and unschooled, who is accused of stealing a Puma can be snatched up and kept in the pen for five days or five months.

Tucked away somewhere in Ramlogan’s rationale is the proposition that all citizens are not equal in the eyes of the law. Under this legislation bail is being used in a punitive manner rather than to assure the attendance of the defendant when his presence is required in court.

Using Ramlogan’s logic one can now understand how persons suspected of causing more harm to the state than these young boys who steal Pumas are not subjected to the same draconian responses from the state? Does losing $1,000 create more suffering and pain among citizens than the fleecing of the public of $1,000,000,000? Are those persons accused of committing such crimes subjected to the same rules of detention as the black boy in the ghetto?

Why the reluctance to extradite persons for whom there is reasonable evidence to believe may have broken the laws of another country. Why aren’t the rights of the black boys in the ghetto accorded the same protection as those who are alleged of stealing millions of dollars? Why does the possession of blackness seem to be such a crime in the society?

Once any law is passed, it can be dusted off to suit any purpose an eager attorney general wants it to serve. Today it is aimed at the boy in the ghetto; tomorrow it can be construed to implicate the governor of the Central Bank. Next week it might be used to undermine the Chief Justice.

Tyranny does not come in one fell swoop. It arrives gradually as zealous ideologues chip away at our freedoms, a little bit at a time.

Let us refrain from going down the road of a police state. Holding a black boy in detention for five days without a charge is unconstitutional. Is this the price we want to pay to satiate Anand’s predilections and the PP’s fetish with legality?

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Offline Die_Hard

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 09:23:38 PM »
Excellent piece, ANand is a real bamsee.  He has an axe to grind and he grinding it on dem poor black people head. 

Wait and see. 

Wait and see.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 09:30:35 PM »
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Offline Organic

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 09:32:49 PM »
Well said Dr. Cudjoe!!!
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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 12:03:03 AM »
TT Guardian
By Dr. Selwyn R. Cudjoe
December 15, 2010

I always believe that the demise of the Grenada Revolution occurred because of the hotheadedness of forty-year olds who had little knowledge of the world and people. They knew theory aplenty but were not seasoned by common sense and wisdom that only comes with age. One is seeing a similar tendency in the UNC-led coalition called the People’s Partnership.

Anywhere you look you can see and hear Anand Ramlogan, the attorney general, who believes that every social problem can be fixed by bombast, the police presence or burdensome laws that infringe upon people’s freedom. Although it is true a T&T government only needs a Prime Minister and an Attorney General to exist, Mr. Ramlogan seems to feel that he is the law of land aided no doubt by the Prime Minister.

Image his fas’ness. Telling Jack to shut up. Well Jack really reach! A young man merely forty years old; holding his first substantive post in the society. Yet, he believes he could speak to anyone as he pleases. Jack, it seems, is merely the latest victim of his intemperance.

And what is Jack’s crime? He believes he should run his ministry as the law of the land demands.

It is important to understand that certain realities and realignments come with ‘Indian Time Ah Come’. One is faced with an essentially litigious mindset that believes that the law and the appeal to the law are the only ways to solve a problem. If yo’ mother take yo’ land; take she to court. If yo’ brother bodder yo, take him to the Privy Council. No one in T&T has taken as many constitutional motions to the Privy Council as have Ramesh Maharaj and Anand Rmalogan.

At the end of day Ramlogan would have used more English lawyers to interfere in our business than any previous attorney general. Whiteness, it seems, confers a mantra of authority. If a local problem is too intractable call down a white man. He has the answer. It’s a holdover from colonialism; a certain mindset that sees all virtues in whiteness and every vice in blackness.

A problem arises with the CAL board. Bring in a white man to solve the problem. There is too much murder, go back to the days of slavery; hang them high and bring back the cat-o-nine tail. “Beat dem bad and dey bound to surrender.” Forget the socio-economic or even cultural conditions that may be at the base of this behavior.

Under the current law, a person (not a suspected gang member, a suspected thief, or a suspected swindler) can be detained by our police without charge for as much as five days. Ramlogan observes that the present law allows that “if there are reasonable grounds to suspect a citizen of committing a crime, [a police] can arrest and detain [him or her] for such a time as reasonable having regards to surrounding facts and circumstances.”

Reasonable by Ramlogan’s definition “could be 48 hours; it could be five days.” Extending this logic, it could be five months or even five years. As it is asked generally in American jurisprudence, “What are the limits of this standard?” Should any law be so designed to give the police unfettered discretion to restrict a person’s freedom?

The class bias of this legislation is obvious which renders it unconstitutional. Ramlogan’s rationale for this draconian measure reads as follows:

“If you choose the bling culture and the sneakers culture. If you choose to laugh at a feller who is studying hard to reach somewhere but you want to wear a Puma and a Nike with air socks then the time has come for society to set you on a straight path and that is what this legislation is all about.”

The target of this piece of legislation is the black boy in the ghetto whom I presume prefers not to study; laughs at those who study hard; prefers Nikes and Pumas; and is associated with what can be called gang culture.

I did not see the same urgency to detain anyone for five days, five months, or five years who, it can be reasonably assumed, fleeced the public of monies that equated a million times the cost of a Puma (about $1,000) or a Nike. Such citizens continue to live large; enjoying the largess of their ill-gotten gains; and continue to move in respectable international circles. Yet the little black boy, poor and unschooled, who is accused of stealing a Puma can be snatched up and kept in the pen for five days or five months.

Tucked away somewhere in Ramlogan’s rationale is the proposition that all citizens are not equal in the eyes of the law. Under this legislation bail is being used in a punitive manner rather than to assure the attendance of the defendant when his presence is required in court.

Using Ramlogan’s logic one can now understand how persons suspected of causing more harm to the state than these young boys who steal Pumas are not subjected to the same draconian responses from the state? Does losing $1,000 create more suffering and pain among citizens than the fleecing of the public of $1,000,000,000? Are those persons accused of committing such crimes subjected to the same rules of detention as the black boy in the ghetto?

Why the reluctance to extradite persons for whom there is reasonable evidence to believe may have broken the laws of another country. Why aren’t the rights of the black boys in the ghetto accorded the same protection as those who are alleged of stealing millions of dollars? Why does the possession of blackness seem to be such a crime in the society?

Once any law is passed, it can be dusted off to suit any purpose an eager attorney general wants it to serve. Today it is aimed at the boy in the ghetto; tomorrow it can be construed to implicate the governor of the Central Bank. Next week it might be used to undermine the Chief Justice.

Tyranny does not come in one fell swoop. It arrives gradually as zealous ideologues chip away at our freedoms, a little bit at a time.

Let us refrain from going down the road of a police state. Holding a black boy in detention for five days without a charge is unconstitutional. Is this the price we want to pay to satiate Anand’s predilections and the PP’s fetish with legality?



I have heard this phrase before....anyone know the source?
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline elan

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 01:37:27 AM »
I read that thing about some parts of society showing out the bling in some other thread recently.
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Offline kounty

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 06:05:49 AM »
sorry Dr Cudjoe, this was a real shit article. and exactly the sort of partisanship that will keep T&T from making any progress. Maybe individuals have too much power in T&T, and it seems like the only way to attack ideas is to lump what person said, along with 'what person's reasoning must have been', along with personality. In that case ideas don't have a meaning anymore and is all about figuring out someone's agenda.

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 08:32:00 AM »
sorry Dr Cudjoe, this was a real shit article. and exactly the sort of partisanship that will keep T&T from making any progress. Maybe individuals have too much power in T&T, and it seems like the only way to attack ideas is to lump what person said, along with 'what person's reasoning must have been', along with personality. In that case ideas don't have a meaning anymore and is all about figuring out someone's agenda.
What do you think is the idea behind giving police the power to hold people for 5 days without a charge ?Similarly, what is the rationale for empowering police to charge a person for suspicion of being a gang member without evidence ?

Cudjoe has made it clear that this legislation which is absolutely bound to incur abuses will affect essentially one group in Trinidad. It is rational to question the agenda of this AG, who has demonstrated in and out of office partisan activism for his native constituency. The PM's choice of Ramlogan as the AG and accordingly the champion of this legislation is bad move politically and gives credence to Cudjoe's commentary.

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 08:48:04 AM »
sorry Dr Cudjoe, this was a real shit article. and exactly the sort of partisanship that will keep T&T from making any progress. Maybe individuals have too much power in T&T, and it seems like the only way to attack ideas is to lump what person said, along with 'what person's reasoning must have been', along with personality. In that case ideas don't have a meaning anymore and is all about figuring out someone's agenda.
What do you think is the idea behind giving police the power to hold people for 5 days without a charge ?Similarly, what is the rationale for empowering police to charge a person for suspicion of being a gang member without evidence ?

Cudjoe has made it clear that this legislation which is absolutely bound to incur abuses will affect essentially one group in Trinidad. It is rational to question the agenda of this AG, who has demonstrated in and out of office partisan activism for his native constituency. The PM's choice of Ramlogan as the AG and accordingly the champion of this legislation is bad move politically and gives credence to Cudjoe's commentary.


In principle I agree that we need some stronger legislation to curb some of our cultural tendencies and send a direct message to the neferious elements in our society but the basic issue of holding an individual for more than 48 hours will simply lead to even more inefficiencies in my opinion.

If a person is arrested for whatever reason, the arresting officer has 48 hours to collect enough evidence in order to charge the individual, what we are doing is now extending that time to 120 hours. With the proposed scenario we are giving police officers leeway to be less efficient in executing their duties. If the scenario warrants that an officer requires more time to then he should file for an extension to go from 48 to 120 with the circumstances validated by a judge.

I don't like the fact that 120 hours are available from d onset. Maybe if someone can explain the rationale behind this I rethink my position.
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Offline Die_Hard

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 09:13:17 AM »
sorry Dr Cudjoe, this was a real shit article. and exactly the sort of partisanship that will keep T&T from making any progress. Maybe individuals have too much power in T&T, and it seems like the only way to attack ideas is to lump what person said, along with 'what person's reasoning must have been', along with personality. In that case ideas don't have a meaning anymore and is all about figuring out someone's agenda.
What do you think is the idea behind giving police the power to hold people for 5 days without a charge ?Similarly, what is the rationale for empowering police to charge a person for suspicion of being a gang member without evidence ?

Cudjoe has made it clear that this legislation which is absolutely bound to incur abuses will affect essentially one group in Trinidad. It is rational to question the agenda of this AG, who has demonstrated in and out of office partisan activism for his native constituency. The PM's choice of Ramlogan as the AG and accordingly the champion of this legislation is bad move politically and gives credence to Cudjoe's commentary.


In principle I agree that we need some stronger legislation to curb some of our cultural tendencies and send a direct message to the neferious elements in our society but the basic issue of holding an individual for more than 48 hours will simply lead to even more inefficiencies in my opinion.

If a person is arrested for whatever reason, the arresting officer has 48 hours to collect enough evidence in order to charge the individual, what we are doing is now extending that time to 120 hours. With the proposed scenario we are giving police officers leeway to be less efficient in executing their duties. If the scenario warrants that an officer requires more time to then he should file for an extension to go from 48 to 120 with the circumstances validated by a judge.

I don't like the fact that 120 hours are available from d onset. Maybe if someone can explain the rationale behind this I rethink my position.

Are police  in the USA even allowed to hold a citizen of the USA for 48 hrs. without a charge?  Not talking about under Mr. Bush and the so-called terrorists now ok?

Offline g

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 09:45:16 AM »
sorry Dr Cudjoe, this was a real shit article. and exactly the sort of partisanship that will keep T&T from making any progress. Maybe individuals have too much power in T&T, and it seems like the only way to attack ideas is to lump what person said, along with 'what person's reasoning must have been', along with personality. In that case ideas don't have a meaning anymore and is all about figuring out someone's agenda.
What do you think is the idea behind giving police the power to hold people for 5 days without a charge ?Similarly, what is the rationale for empowering police to charge a person for suspicion of being a gang member without evidence ?

Cudjoe has made it clear that this legislation which is absolutely bound to incur abuses will affect essentially one group in Trinidad. It is rational to question the agenda of this AG, who has demonstrated in and out of office partisan activism for his native constituency. The PM's choice of Ramlogan as the AG and accordingly the champion of this legislation is bad move politically and gives credence to Cudjoe's commentary.


In principle I agree that we need some stronger legislation to curb some of our cultural tendencies and send a direct message to the neferious elements in our society but the basic issue of holding an individual for more than 48 hours will simply lead to even more inefficiencies in my opinion.

If a person is arrested for whatever reason, the arresting officer has 48 hours to collect enough evidence in order to charge the individual, what we are doing is now extending that time to 120 hours. With the proposed scenario we are giving police officers leeway to be less efficient in executing their duties. If the scenario warrants that an officer requires more time to then he should file for an extension to go from 48 to 120 with the circumstances validated by a judge.

I don't like the fact that 120 hours are available from d onset. Maybe if someone can explain the rationale behind this I rethink my position.

Are police  in the USA even allowed to hold a citizen of the USA for 48 hrs. without a charge?  Not talking about under Mr. Bush and the so-called terrorists now ok?

Don't know US law at any level. But I was a student in Washington DC at the time of the implementation of the Patriot act which brought about a great level of unease across the student population.

When the Caribbean Student Association met to discuss the matter, our International Affiars staff simply told us to continue following the guideliness that were instructed when we first got here which is simply to operate within the law or run the risk of being subject to whatever immigration measures that come as a result of flouting the law.

Whatever legal framework that exists in any particular country is there to protect the lives of those same citizens, no law is perfect and if there are claues that seem to be draconian and/or oppressive we can write editorials like Cudjoe or ventilate on blogsites like this but it is ultiimately up to the people who we have selected to govern that will make final determination on the law.

I have no choice but to accept what is passed and adjust if required.
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Offline ribbit

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 09:20:45 AM »
I read that thing about some parts of society showing out the bling in some other thread recently.

yeah that was about some crackhead trying to snatch chain from a 4 year old. somehow dat thread eh distinguish consumption from investment.


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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 10:15:27 AM »

 Cudjoe's comments seem to me to suggest a fear that this government could succeed where his party failed as far as tackling the crime problem is concerned.
Some of the same people here who are commenting negatively against this new gang also wanted a limited state of emergency to deal with it.
He interprets Ramlogan's advice for the Minister and the CAL board to stop making public comments as some kind of buff to Jack, when in fact it is sound advice from a governance standpoint.
Whilst Ramlogan maybe many things he still is AG and has work to do if he seeks external help to do that then so be it, it is not as if the PNM did not do the same thing.
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 10:44:13 AM »

Cudjoe's comments seem to me to suggest a fear that this government could succeed where his party failed as far as tackling the crime problem is concerned.
Some of the same people here who are commenting negatively against this new gang also wanted a limited state of emergency to deal with it.
He interprets Ramlogan's advice for the Minister and the CAL board to stop making public comments as some kind of buff to Jack, when in fact it is sound advice from a governance standpoint.
Whilst Ramlogan maybe many things he still is AG and has work to do if he seeks external help to do that then so be it, it is not as if the PNM did not do the same thing.
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.
How so ? I think he is talking about the potential abuse of power and the erosion of the rights of one section of the population.

Offline elan

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 11:14:37 AM »

 Cudjoe's comments seem to me to suggest a fear that this government could succeed where his party failed as far as tackling the crime problem is concerned.
Some of the same people here who are commenting negatively against this new gang also wanted a limited state of emergency to deal with it.
He interprets Ramlogan's advice for the Minister and the CAL board to stop making public comments as some kind of buff to Jack, when in fact it is sound advice from a governance standpoint.
Whilst Ramlogan maybe many things he still is AG and has work to do if he seeks external help to do that then so be it, it is not as if the PNM did not do the same thing.
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.

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Offline ribbit

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
Tucked away somewhere in Ramlogan’s rationale is the proposition that all citizens are not equal in the eyes of the law.

sad to say, but this is true of not just ramlogan but anyone else that yuh could find to put in power. thaiz basically a definition of power. cudjoe write like one of dem maoist in asia.  ::)

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 11:19:24 AM »
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.

...and very much in keeping with his prior GOPIO agenda, which is why I find your political interpretation of Cudjoe's argument to be puzzling.  Not quite as puzzling as Kounty's take, but puzzling all the same.  Cudjoe makes some very astute observations with regards to the potential for abuse.

The notion that police can hold someone for any period of time and THEN go look for evidence justifying the detention is offensive to any notion of an ordered society.  Whether that detention is 48 hours or 48 minutes this should not be the case.  Any detention should properly be premised on probable cause, unless the police have a reasonable basis for the detention.  Not to offer the US as some paradigm of achievement, but not only is the law more mature than that in TnT, but also the body of constitutional law has been more tested and proven on the basis of thousands of challenges over the years.  

Having gone thru that process of refinement thru challenges by criminal defendants and prosecutors alike, the finished product is more battle-tested than the laws currently on the books in TnT.  Put simply, we don't generate nearly the number of constitutional cases which bring new ideas and new challenges to existing law, forcing the judiciary to consider and re-consider the issues from different perspectives, leading to either affirmation, reversal or incremental refinement of TnT law.

All this to answer Die_Hard's question about detention without a charge, the question turns on the "reasonableness" of police action.  The US Constitution forbades unreasonable search or seizure without probable cause.  So implicated are two issues "reasonableness" and whether there is "probable cause" to seize (arrest the person or confiscate property).  If there is PC to arrest then it is per se "reasonable".  If no PC, but still an arrest, it doesn't mean that the arrest is unconstitutional, it means the arrest is valid only if it was reasonable to arrest the person.  

To give an example: PC is established where (in light of the "totality of the circumstances") there is sufficient basis for a reasonable, prudent police officer to believe a) that a crime was committed; and b) that the person to be arrested is the one who committed the offense.  You must have both to establish PC.  Assume however that a) is satisfied, but there's a group of individuals and the officer can't be certain as to who among the group committed the offense.  It is perfectly "reasonable" to detain the group until further inquiries can be made to determine the identity of the person who committed the crime.  How long is a reasonable time is dictated by the particular facts and circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 11:23:51 AM by Bake n Shark »

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 11:31:47 AM »

 Cudjoe's comments seem to me to suggest a fear that this government could succeed where his party failed as far as tackling the crime problem is concerned.
Some of the same people here who are commenting negatively against this new gang also wanted a limited state of emergency to deal with it.
He interprets Ramlogan's advice for the Minister and the CAL board to stop making public comments as some kind of buff to Jack, when in fact it is sound advice from a governance standpoint.
Whilst Ramlogan maybe many things he still is AG and has work to do if he seeks external help to do that then so be it, it is not as if the PNM did not do the same thing.
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.

What does it benefit Cudjoe or any citizen if we have runaway crime?    Cudjoe addressed a significant issue with perception.  Anand Ramlogan's statements give the perception that he is going after young black men.

The perception is enough to warrant concern.

The fact (if it is indeed a fact) that the PNM did the same thing in seeking outside help is moot.  Indeed it is hypocritical.   He and his colleagues, when on the otherside, oftentimes gave critical analysis and bad mouthed the then government for the same things.

Furthermore, the point you choose to highlight is not even the central theme of Cudjoe's thesis.

What should be of greater concern is the potential for the erosion of civil liberites.  

Anand has been talking for 6 months now about popping necks and locking up criminals, yet we see no change in the rate of criminality except for a marked increase.

I can go further and point out that he is all talk and no action, as evidenced by Ish and his friend still not being extradited.

Drastic times do deserve drastic measures, a temporay state of emergency is warranted much more than legislation that gives the police the right to grab me off the streets and hold me for days without charges being proffered.

If you cannot see the potential for abuse there than I cannot help you.

Just imagine you are a political opponent and you are grabbed, your family too and held for days....just for intimidation sake.

 

truetrini

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 11:36:27 AM »
Tucked away somewhere in Ramlogan’s rationale is the proposition that all citizens are not equal in the eyes of the law.

sad to say, but this is true of not just ramlogan but anyone else that yuh could find to put in power. thaiz basically a definition of power. cudjoe write like one of dem maoist in asia.  ::)

Come on man ribbit, you cant be serious?

Your point makes Cudjoe's position even stronger.

It is absolutely imperative that we have an independant judiciary as well as sound laws to protect us from such tyranny as you described.

So becasue he wrote his opinion about Ramlogan (who is the AG NOW and who is in power NOW) his message is somehow wrong?

Should he write to people in New Zealand?  the man is a trini and is writing about issues that he sees.

steups.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 12:38:14 PM »

 Cudjoe's comments seem to me to suggest a fear that this government could succeed where his party failed as far as tackling the crime problem is concerned.
Some of the same people here who are commenting negatively against this new gang also wanted a limited state of emergency to deal with it.
He interprets Ramlogan's advice for the Minister and the CAL board to stop making public comments as some kind of buff to Jack, when in fact it is sound advice from a governance standpoint.
Whilst Ramlogan maybe many things he still is AG and has work to do if he seeks external help to do that then so be it, it is not as if the PNM did not do the same thing.
I find his argument hinting of racism and even as stupid as the numerous Sat Maharaj rants.

What does it benefit Cudjoe or any citizen if we have runaway crime?    Cudjoe addressed a significant issue with perception.  Anand Ramlogan's statements give the perception that he is going after young black men.

The perception is enough to warrant concern.

The fact (if it is indeed a fact) that the PNM did the same thing in seeking outside help is moot.  Indeed it is hypocritical.   He and his colleagues, when on the otherside, oftentimes gave critical analysis and bad mouthed the then government for the same things.

Furthermore, the point you choose to highlight is not even the central theme of Cudjoe's thesis.

What should be of greater concern is the potential for the erosion of civil liberites.  

Anand has been talking for 6 months now about popping necks and locking up criminals, yet we see no change in the rate of criminality except for a marked increase.

I can go further and point out that he is all talk and no action, as evidenced by Ish and his friend still not being extradited.

Drastic times do deserve drastic measures, a temporay state of emergency is warranted much more than legislation that gives the police the right to grab me off the streets and hold me for days without charges being proffered.

If you cannot see the potential for abuse there than I cannot help you.

Just imagine you are a political opponent and you are grabbed, your family too and held for days....just for intimidation sake.

 
This is because our crime rate is not primarily caused by a legislative gap but an enforcement and judicial gap. Apart from corruption and mismanagement in the service the police are constrained personnel shortages, outdated training techniques and archaic technology.

Incidentally, there is another proposal to implement a "three strikes" law which I happen to support. Needless to say the aforementioned constraints also apply to the application of this law.

Because they are a party of lawyers they are inclined to legislate their way out of this problem . That may not have been altogether bad if this legislation wasn't so draconian and if they didn't simultaneously dismantle national security agencies and derail attempts to strengthen our maritime security. I'm sure you recall the PM's statement (when last she talk anyway ?) about the war being on land and not on sea. It appears this law is intended to assist in that fight.

I can't help but think about that scene from "The Siege" where thousands of Arab-American men were detained to  capture a few terrorists. The difference is that was marshal law and not institutionalized discrimination.

truetrini

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 12:47:40 PM »
I agree with what you are saying, but in fairness the police were supposed to be trained better, and they have great equipment too, it is political will that is lacking.

Legislation giving the commish more power wwas enacted already.

lets see something done.

And yes they are trying to legislate themselves out of crime..not going to happen

Offline Deeks

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 08:12:50 PM »
Using Ramlogan’s logic one can now understand how persons suspected of causing more harm to the state than these young boys who steal Pumas are not subjected to the same draconian responses from the state? Does losing $1,000 create more suffering and pain among citizens than the fleecing of the public of $1,000,000,000? Are those persons accused of committing such crimes subjected to the same rules of detention as the black boy in the ghetto?

Why the reluctance to extradite persons for whom there is reasonable evidence to believe may have broken the laws of another country. Why aren’t the rights of the black boys in the ghetto accorded the same protection as those who are alleged of stealing millions of dollars? Why does the possession of blackness seem to be such a crime in the society?



I more or less agree with Cudjoe, but to a point. Unfortunately black boys are the last in line of this distructive chain. They more than fit the profile. They are the ones more than likely have the gun and pulling the trigger and in most cases killing another black person. I take this piece ah logic from a letter I read in the guardian or express. Everybody demands that the police find the higher ups in the crime chain. They always scapegoat, right or wrong, "them syrians and them". But the letter writer continues" I have never seen a syrian hitman. More than likely is a black boy coming to kill me". So what do we do, look for the syrian-man or the black boy who you know more than likely will kill yuh arse. Very sad state for black people in TT. People just look at them pictures in the newspapers. Every f--king day. And is Christmas time.

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 09:34:20 PM »
Deeks you don't kill a snake by cutting of the tail.  These black boys are the tail...cut off the f**king head and kill the snake, Anand is a c**t.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 09:56:03 PM »
Using Ramlogan’s logic one can now understand how persons suspected of causing more harm to the state than these young boys who steal Pumas are not subjected to the same draconian responses from the state? Does losing $1,000 create more suffering and pain among citizens than the fleecing of the public of $1,000,000,000? Are those persons accused of committing such crimes subjected to the same rules of detention as the black boy in the ghetto?

Why the reluctance to extradite persons for whom there is reasonable evidence to believe may have broken the laws of another country. Why aren’t the rights of the black boys in the ghetto accorded the same protection as those who are alleged of stealing millions of dollars? Why does the possession of blackness seem to be such a crime in the society?



I more or less agree with Cudjoe, but to a point. Unfortunately black boys are the last in line of this distructive chain. They more than fit the profile. They are the ones more than likely have the gun and pulling the trigger and in most cases killing another black person. I take this piece ah logic from a letter I read in the guardian or express. Everybody demands that the police find the higher ups in the crime chain. They always scapegoat, right or wrong, "them syrians and them". But the letter writer continues" I have never seen a syrian hitman. More than likely is a black boy coming to kill me". So what do we do, look for the syrian-man or the black boy who you know more than likely will kill yuh arse. Very sad state for black people in TT. People just look at them pictures in the newspapers. Every f--king day. And is Christmas time.
Everything you say there is the truth. It still doh make this legislation any better.

Offline elan

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 11:48:50 PM »
Using Ramlogan’s logic one can now understand how persons suspected of causing more harm to the state than these young boys who steal Pumas are not subjected to the same draconian responses from the state? Does losing $1,000 create more suffering and pain among citizens than the fleecing of the public of $1,000,000,000? Are those persons accused of committing such crimes subjected to the same rules of detention as the black boy in the ghetto?

Why the reluctance to extradite persons for whom there is reasonable evidence to believe may have broken the laws of another country. Why aren’t the rights of the black boys in the ghetto accorded the same protection as those who are alleged of stealing millions of dollars? Why does the possession of blackness seem to be such a crime in the society?



I more or less agree with Cudjoe, but to a point. Unfortunately black boys are the last in line of this distructive chain. They more than fit the profile. They are the ones more than likely have the gun and pulling the trigger and in most cases killing another black person. I take this piece ah logic from a letter I read in the guardian or express. Everybody demands that the police find the higher ups in the crime chain. They always scapegoat, right or wrong, "them syrians and them". But the letter writer continues" I have never seen a syrian hitman. More than likely is a black boy coming to kill me". So what do we do, look for the syrian-man or the black boy who you know more than likely will kill yuh arse. Very sad state for black people in TT. People just look at them pictures in the newspapers. Every f--king day. And is Christmas time.

And this is exactly why this crime will continue. Thinking and reasoning like this. Deeks that's messed up man. Yes, you maybe right that is the black fella coming to get you, but where did he get the means or opportunity to come get you. The higher ups are not scapegoats, they are the providers. They put in the hands of the ghetto youth the guns that they using to snuff people - they are enablers. They to me are more culpable (in terms of solving the crime problem) than the ghetto youth. You can arrest and prosecute as many hitmen as you want, once the guns coming you will find hitmen. You want to kill the tree cut the roots, in this case the lil black boys are only braches. To place the blame squarely at the feet of the black boys is burying yuh head in the sand.
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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 12:01:46 AM »
Guys allyuh correct on this issues. But tell me which government has been successful in taking down the higher ups or at least making them scare that they cease their bad way? Very few or next to none. The amount of time, effort, money and just the will to carry thru is alien to those who needs to carry out justice. Look at the last administration. They appear not to have a clue on how to resolve the issue. When they tried to pass legislation, the present gov't always deny them. With all the drugs coming into this country over the past 25 yrs, allyuh name me a socalled "higher up" that has been caught and convicted. None. They allways seem to have connection in high places. Everybody appears to know who bringing in the drugs and guns. Everybody seem to know who laundering the money. Tell me who has been convicted of transhipment of drugs in TT. Who has been convicted of money laudering. Who has been caught bringing guns. NONE, NONE, NONE

truetrini

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 01:35:21 AM »
Guys allyuh correct on this issues. But tell me which government has been successful in taking down the higher ups or at least making them scare that they cease their bad way? Very few or next to none. The amount of time, effort, money and just the will to carry thru is alien to those who needs to carry out justice. Look at the last administration. They appear not to have a clue on how to resolve the issue. When they tried to pass legislation, the present gov't always deny them. With all the drugs coming into this country over the past 25 yrs, allyuh name me a socalled "higher up" that has been caught and convicted. None. They allways seem to have connection in high places. Everybody appears to know who bringing in the drugs and guns. Everybody seem to know who laundering the money. Tell me who has been convicted of transhipment of drugs in TT. Who has been convicted of money laudering. Who has been caught bringing guns. NONE, NONE, NONE

True talk, but this government promised different, and Kamal is a goddess so tings go change

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2010, 03:28:40 AM »
Kamla's choice of Anand as AG was one of the first major decisions she had to make as PM.  Sarah Palin as running mate was John Mc Cain's first major decision as nominee for the GOP back in 2008.  Ah have the same reaction now as I did when Mc Cain find dat woman.....ah scratching mih head and saying WTF??!!

BTW, this law is still being debated right??  It eh pass the Senate yet right??
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Offline ribbit

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2010, 08:28:27 AM »
Deeks you don't kill a snake by cutting of the tail.  These black boys are the tail...cut off the f**king head and kill the snake, Anand is a c**t.

dis snake analogy is completely wrong. de supply chain for criminals will ALWAYS be there. like moses say: guns doh kill people. people kill people.

yuh want to see the future of this kind of thinking look no further than the US War on Drugs which has been an absolute abject complete collossal total EPIC FAIL. what happened when they kill escobar? nothing.

is not a snake yuh dealing with, is a hydra. yuh fighting history on dis one.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 09:02:57 AM by ribbit »

truetrini

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Re: Criminalizing the Society
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2010, 09:07:21 AM »
Deeks you don't kill a snake by cutting of the tail.  These black boys are the tail...cut off the f**king head and kill the snake, Anand is a c**t.

dis snake analogy is completely wrong. de supply chain for criminals will ALWAYS be there. like moses say: guns doh kill people. people kill people.

yuh want to see the future of this kind of thinking look no further than the US War on Drugs which has been an absolute abject complete collossal total EPIC FAIL. what happened when they kill escobar? nothing.

is not a snake yuh dealing with, is a hydra. yuh fighting history on dis one.

still have to cut off the heads.   The US never really had a war on drugs, they had a advertising campaign against drugs..dais all.

 

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