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Offline pecan

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2011, 02:12:12 PM »
Parents and religious communities are responsible for teaching religion, not the state. So send your child to a religious school if you want your child to learn religion or do so within your own church.

I have no problem with the State teaching comparative religion and general religious topics as part of an optional curriculum.

Compulsory Faith-based teachings, if that is what is being proposed, does not make sense in a multi-religious nation.

If you want to teach 'core values', then teach classes in Ethics, Morality and Law and debate the issues of good and evil.
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Offline kounty

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2011, 03:03:08 PM »
Bakes if I livin in a town and there are enough of them (>5%) then yes I do want my kids to know what they believe (that ties in to the whole I am right you are wrong/ good vs evil / us vs them slant I think this religious education in schools ting is trying to address - Half of the population of my country can't be some ignorant assholes who believe in something absolutely silly... point 1 before we can even get our minds anywhere about respecting people of a different belief than mine). 
MEP I know trinidad is a racial paradise and only a few marginal madmen prejudiced, and does do favors for certain people b/c of they race etc in t'dad...not...okay maybe hatred is a strong word to generalize the feeling but if you denying a very big problem exist that seriously keeping back our country then you not too right either.
Jah Gol, yes you can.  You think a school board could say we deciding to not teach mathematics? and the ministry say so? You jus take away all their gov't funding let them do whatever the hell they want... private school.
Weary, you remind me of the racist white girls in oregon who used to say, "I'm not racist, my brother's girlfriend is black," but then let me walk by them when they in they car and is peer door locks... denial. eating food at diwali is the extent of my knowledge of indian people.  who in the majority on my tiny tiny island. something not wrong with that?

Offline kicker

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2011, 03:11:15 PM »
Most people don't even know what "freedom of speech" means... or the fact that the language never appears in the Constitution. 

I thought it was in the first amendment of the Constitution, but I doh really know these kinda things... I just loosely throwing together words that I've heard in conversation... I'm admittedly in the "general public" on issues like this lol. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 03:20:27 PM by kicker »
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2011, 03:12:24 PM »
Bakes if I livin in a town and there are enough of them (>5%) then yes I do want my kids to know what they believe (that ties in to the whole I am right you are wrong/ good vs evil / us vs them slant I think this religious education in schools ting is trying to address - Half of the population of my country can't be some ignorant assholes who believe in something absolutely silly... point 1 before we can even get our minds anywhere about respecting people of a different belief than mine). 
MEP I know trinidad is a racial paradise and only a few marginal madmen prejudiced, and does do favors for certain people b/c of they race etc in t'dad...not...okay maybe hatred is a strong word to generalize the feeling but if you denying a very big problem exist that seriously keeping back our country then you not too right either.
Jah Gol, yes you can.  You think a school board could say we deciding to not teach mathematics? and the ministry say so? You jus take away all their gov't funding let them do whatever the hell they want... private school.
Weary, you remind me of the racist white girls in oregon who used to say, "I'm not racist, my brother's girlfriend is black," but then let me walk by them when they in they car and is peer door locks... denial. eating food at diwali is the extent of my knowledge of indian people.  who in the majority on my tiny tiny island. something not wrong with that?
In T&T we have a framework for the relationship between the MoE and denominational schools called the concordat. Take a read.

http://www.nalis.gov.tt/Education/Education_Concordat.html


Offline Bakes

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 03:25:31 PM »
Most people don't even know what "freedom of speech" means... or the fact that the language never appears in the Constitution. 

I thought it was in the first amendment of the Constitution, but I doh really know these kinda things... I just loosely throwing together words that I've heard in conversation... I'm admittedly in the "general public" on issues like this lol. 

Nah, they infer it from the language... it is a negative right ("Congress shall make no laws...") rather than an affirmative one (language to the effect of "each man shall have the right to freedom of speech..." etc.)

Bakes if I livin in a town and there are enough of them (>5%) then yes I do want my kids to know what they believe (that ties in to the whole I am right you are wrong/ good vs evil / us vs them slant I think this religious education in schools ting is trying to address - Half of the population of my country can't be some ignorant assholes who believe in something absolutely silly... point 1 before we can even get our minds anywhere about respecting people of a different belief than mine). 

1. What if it ent have "enough of them"... what if is only 2 people?  Treat them different?
2. Would you want the government dictating that or would you prefer YOU as a parent determine what you expose your child to?

Offline kounty

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »


In T&T we have a framework for the relationship between the MoE and denominational schools called the concordat. Take a read.

http://www.nalis.gov.tt/Education/Education_Concordat.html



 :beermug:
easy workaround though.



1. What if it ent have "enough of them"... what if is only 2 people?  Treat them different?
2. Would you want the government dictating that or would you prefer YOU as a parent determine what you expose your child to?
1. any sicko can have an idea, but my son don't have to know about.  but I believe in the normal distribution...any more than 2 sigma and you marginal - call it my religion.
2. well I might not be the most versed person on whether or not the caste system is part of hinduism, or if no hindus eat meat, or what the Quran says about hijaab. So maybe I could trust the people who responsible for educating my child for the entire day to not go too overboard and teach him too much wrong.  maybe I could even expect a trained expert representative to travel to different schools and 'present' different religions. maybe.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:14:32 PM by kounty »

Offline Bakes

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2011, 04:51:54 PM »
1. any sicko can have an idea, but my son don't have to know about.  but I believe in the normal distribution...any more than 2 sigma and you marginal - call it my religion.
2. well I might not be the most versed person on whether or not the caste system is part of hinduism, or if no hindus eat meat, or what the Quran says about hijaab. So maybe I could trust the people who responsible for educating my child for the entire day to not go too overboard and teach him too much wrong.  maybe I could even expect a trained expert representative to travel to different schools and 'present' different religions. maybe.

1. Using your metric... if your family is de only black family in some New Mexico town... they could discriminate against allyuh as long as allyuh fall below de "normal distribution" ent?  Or de "normal distribution" talk only applies to disfavored religions?

2. You keep ignoring the larger issues... but I'll play along.  Are the current teachers sufficiently versed in "all religions" so as to qualify to teach them... or should we spend money to hire these "trained experts" yuh talking about?  With all the fiscal problems facing schools, first $700k on laptops... now more money to hire religious "experts"?  Who determines the qualifications of these experts?  What if Sat say he's ah expert and some next Hindu pandit say he's more expert... who yuh hire?  What if they have divergent views on the theology... who yuh believe?  All this aside, is this a proper appropriation of gov't time/money?

Mind you, I could keep coming up with all kinda problematic scenarios... and we ent even focusing on the obvious problems involving discrimination against other religions.

Offline MEP

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2011, 05:37:21 PM »
let me say it in the open..the only people who talk about race and who feel that they are discrininated against are EAST INDIANS in TnT

Offline PantherX

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2011, 06:38:06 PM »
Secular governments have no business getting involved with teaching religion.  Period.

Offline Dutty

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2011, 06:57:36 PM »
Secular governments have no business getting involved with teaching religion.  Period.

I keep forgetting to ask...is that you in yuh sig?

if so, is that some sort of religious rain dance?
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Offline kounty

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2011, 07:27:36 PM »

1. Using your metric... if your family is de only black family in some New Mexico town... they could discriminate against allyuh as long as allyuh fall below de "normal distribution" ent?  Or de "normal distribution" talk only applies to disfavored religions?

2. You keep ignoring the larger issues... but I'll play along.  Are the current teachers sufficiently versed in "all religions" so as to qualify to teach them... or should we spend money to hire these "trained experts" yuh talking about?  With all the fiscal problems facing schools, first $700k on laptops... now more money to hire religious "experts"?  Who determines the qualifications of these experts?  What if Sat say he's ah expert and some next Hindu pandit say he's more expert... who yuh hire?  What if they have divergent views on the theology... who yuh believe?  All this aside, is this a proper appropriation of gov't time/money?

Mind you, I could keep coming up with all kinda problematic scenarios... and we ent even focusing on the obvious problems involving discrimination against other religions.
1. yeah, suppose I want afro caribbean to be put on the drivers' license to represent my race, think I could make that fly? I don't think not having every single religious view on a curriculum is a violation of anybody's civil rights. maybe parents can opt their kids out like JahGol link says is the protocol at the denominational schools.
2. problematic scenarios that can't be worked out? hmm....how about starting with what people agree on for younger kids, and highlighting differences for older kids. maybe a textbook and curriculum that these leaders come together and agree on. regular teachers can teach basics for younger kids.

well I taking the ribbit stance yes.  it really ent worth the fight down.  we like it so.  everything criss as it is. why even think about doing anything different.

Offline elan

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2011, 09:37:56 PM »
let me say it in the open..the only people who talk about race and who feel that they are discrininated against are EAST INDIANS in TnT

That's because the "African" people runs things.  ::)
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Offline ProudTrinbagonian

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 07:24:24 AM »
allyuh like to talk race yes....any topic turn into Indian vs African thing
If someone ask What type of Ice cream is your favourite?  that go be a race thing too.

It real disappointing the state of affairs.  It starting to real reflect in our sports too.  I telling you, is like we trying hard to repeat Guyana's mistakes.
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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 10:10:27 AM »
Well it obvious that his talk was meant to encourage Hindus given his platform etc.  To me that ain't no scene if that the man heritage.  It just called politics. On the religious situation, let everybody teach what they want to teach. There's no need to force anyone to teach anything that they don't believe.  Heck, bring in the Wiccas too.  There are certain things that need to be in place before a state or country recognizes your organization.  So it's not gonna be like a free for all like some people trying to imply.  The universal laws represented in the majority of religions are better than not having any religion.  Hence, it would be better for him to bring the religious leaders together and show support for what everyone is trying to do within their areas of influence.  The truth will never become a lie and a lie will never become the truth, so what's the big deal?  Let everybody like dey self.   
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Offline MEP

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 10:10:58 AM »
allyuh like to talk race yes....any topic turn into Indian vs African thing
If someone ask What type of Ice cream is your favourite?  that go be a race thing too.

It real disappointing the state of affairs.  It starting to real reflect in our sports too.  I telling you, is like we trying hard to repeat Guyana's mistakes.
breds is not a matter of talking race but who speaks of race

Offline congo

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 10:53:31 AM »
Denominational schools shouldn't be forced to teach other religions. Isn't that contradictory? This Government is sticking it's nose in where it doesn't belong once again. I went to a catholic school and when we had religious studies or school mass, the other students belonging to the other religions all had to attend civics or study period. Leave the teaching of all religions to the Government schools. If it's not broken why fix it? ??? ???

Here's my problem with this government. Every time they come into office they seem to always have some revelation about education. It's almost like they're the experts on the topic. Last time they removed Common Entrance and replace it with SEA. Then they put children over rumshops and have them reading chicken little all in the name of "no chile left behind.' Now they want work from standard 3 and 4 to be admitted to the final Sea results. So why should children need to worry about SEA from std 3? ??? ??? ???

 Now they want Denominational schools to stop picking the best and brightest children "to look good for cxc result." Then who are they to pick? The lowest of the class, who may not even belong to the religion of the school and who may be progressing to slowly to keep up with the colleges and Convents? Some children do develop later than others but the system is not broken. Fix the government institutions first. There are too many wrongs with government instituitons for they to focus on the religious schools.

Offline Trinimassive

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Re: LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2011, 03:03:27 PM »
IMO, It's a good initiative.
I went to a school that taught all religions and we celebrated all religious holidays.  Every child used to play with each other and celebrate with each other regardless of race and religion, Catholics, Hindu, Pres, Ang, Muslim, Bahai, etc.  It taught tolerance and acceptance.

Funny thing is even though we all grown up and have moved on, we have all stayed in touch with one another and for the most part have all become successes in our respective careers.  Say what you want, but if Trinidad & Tobago taught and celebrated all of our backgrounds and faiths as kids, all this race talk wouldn't be hindering progress today.

A valid argument could be made with regards to religion causing more division, wars and rumours of wars

Offline Tallman

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Dialogue a must before religious education
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 05:04:32 PM »
Dialogue a must before religious education
T&T Guardian Editorial


The recent suggestion by the Ministry of Education that denominational schools should adapt their teaching programme to accommodate and be reflective of universal religions is quite a sharp diversion from the status quo. Only recently, the Government determined that the teaching of religion in its own schools should be returned. That was then a major departure from what had become the norm: that the school was not the place for teaching and nurturing religious beliefs, that being a responsibility left to the family and the various religious faiths to which parents and their children belong.

Returning religious education to Government schools was easily an option to be embraced as it would ground young people, many of them so lacking in direction, in a faith of their choice. However, the requirement for religious denominational schools to make space in their curriculum for teaching, even in an academic disinterested manner, other religious doctrines is quite a step apart. First on the list of requirements is for the Ministry of Education, if it firmly decides on pursuing what seems only a thought at this point, to engage in deep and widespread consultations with all of the interest groups involved in a matter of this nature.

The denominational bodies would seem like a good place to start the consultations because the schools belong to them. In seeking to consult, there must be the recognition that the denominations have built and developed their schools over a long period. In the instance of the Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists and Anglicans, the development has taken place over a couple hundred years.  Although of a more recent vintage, the Hindu, Islamic, Seventh Day Adventist schools, Pentecostals and others, are entrenched and have their own traditions and patterns of passing on the religions and the practices of these ancestral faiths to their young. And they do so unimpeded by requiring them to have even an appreciation of other religious forms.

Ultimately, parents must have perhaps the most important say in what they want their children to be exposed to by way of religious education. Parents understand too well that what may set out to be merely giving young people information about the great religions of the world, must have an element of crossover to it as no information is completely pure and without an element of persuading persons to be adherents to a faith. The process of consultation often seems long and complicated with those who are proposing a system having to compromise and take on board the perspectives and positions of others. But who says building a multi-cultural, multi-religious and multi-ethnic society is easy.

Difficulties arise when governments and administrators seek a short-cut, seek the easy way out and attempt to impose their own way of proceeding on the interest groups involved. That is when difficulties arise and at times become intractable and are the cause for open conflict and contention. Dialogue, listening to the views of others and as far as possible structuring a system which meets the needs and aspirations of all cannot be avoided. The Minister of Education, Dr Tim Gopeesingh, must therefore establish in his mind that he and the ministry will not be able to railroad everyone and in quick time into accepting a proposal for teaching a variety of religions in the non-denominational schools. On the face of the proposal, or rather the thought expressed by the Minister, seems to have merit.

Too often in this multi-cultural society, we come to blows over differences and do so in ignorance of the beliefs and positions of our fellow nationals. A religious education programme, commonly agreed upon, can help.
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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 06:02:55 PM »
Autocracy de man say...wtf allyuh want consultation for?

The truth is emerging with these clowns.

Sat marahaj already say to chase christians out from de country when they come as evangelists....

tell me what religion allyuh want allyuh 5,6,7,8,9,and 10 year old chirren to be taught?

Hinduism?  Islam, Buddism, Christianity?  Orisha?  SHouter?  Zoraster?   lol

we facking reach.

What about Darwinism??
 

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 06:28:13 PM »
I could be wrong but wasnt this the same set of people who took  pray out of schools when they were in power a couple years ago and now trying to sneak it back in .
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 06:33:30 PM by zuluwarrior »
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Offline Tallman

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How to value religion
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2011, 02:18:18 PM »
How to value religion
By Kevin Baldeosingh (T&T Express)


I wasn't invited to the Education Ministry's stakeholders consultation on the teaching of religion. Maybe the organisers find that I stake religious beliefs too often in my writing. Nonetheless, since I know more about religion than religious leaders in Trinidad and Tobago, I feel I have an intellectual obligation to put in my two cents' worth. And, after hearing Education Minister Tim Gopeesingh's rationale for this new policy, I figure that figure is just about right.

According to Dr Gopeesingh, the Ministry wants "a revised curriculum that mirrors the virtues and values of all the religious groups in the country". But if religion were taught like a proper subject, such as Science, then it wouldn't be a mirror of virtues. Physics teachers don't tell students they should believe Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism because James Maxwell was a teetotaller, and Biology teachers don't argue that evolution is a fact because Charles Darwin never horned his wife. Teaching Religion as it is actually practised here would mean teaching young people how to take money under false pretences such as healing the sick, preventing crime, and stopping hurricanes. (Many students already know how to fornicate while saying "Oh God".) So if Religion is to be a subject which reflects virtue, then English Language teachers would first be required to teach their students a new meaning of the word "virtue".

After all, if nine-year-old school girls are told the age of the Prophet Muhammad's fourth wife, Aisha, they would probably go "Ewww!", indicating that their idea of virtue is different from Muslim scholars', who explain that it was a great honour for Aisha to be chosen by the 53-year-old Muhammad. Now all schools, and not just Muslim ones, will be teaching girls to be ambitious from small, since even a nine-year-old can cook, sweep, and marry their grandfather's friend.

This value of women is also backed up in Christianity and Hinduism, since Corinthians 11:9 says "Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman for the man" while the Bhagavadgita says that women are of "lower birth". Teachers could explain that this doesn't mean women were made to serve man, as a common sense interpretation of these words would suggest, but only that men need someone to wash their clothes. The virtue provided here by Yahweh is the formula to prevent domestic violence in Colossians 3:18-19, which says, "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as fitting in the Lord."

It would be rather more difficult to explain the virtues of the Bhagavadgita, especially to teenage boys from Laventille, since Bhagavan says: "One who is not motivated by ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, does not kill nor is he bound by his actions." Schoolboys may interpret this to mean that, since they aren't doing well in class, they could kill and not go to jail. The teacher should explain that this rule only allows Hindus to kill, and even then only if they're brahmins or ksatriyas. The virtue here is that this would lead to less stigmatisation of little black boys.

On the other hand, teaching Religion could lead to more stigmatisation of little gay boys. Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death". But if this law was followed, would anyone be left to put on plays at Queen's Hall? Would it have to be renamed Kings Hall? However, teachers can take their cue from Seventh-Day Adventist pastor Clive Dottin, who says this is a moral law and not a ceremonial law, which I assume means that you needn't execute homosexuals nowadays but they're all still going to Hell.

Where teachers will have the most problems, though, would be in reconciling religious facts with actual facts. In Mathematics class, students are told that pi is an infinite sequence of numbers of which the first six numbers are 3.14159: but, in 1Kings 7:23, the value of pi is calculated as 3. The fractions in the Quran also contradict what students are taught in Math, since Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state that when a man dies, leaving only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they respectively receive ·, ·, and · inheritance: which adds up to 15/12 of the man's property. Maybe in the first instance, teachers can say that everybody rounds up figures, including Yahweh, and in the second instance claim that this is proof that Allah performs even better miracles than Jesus feeding the multitudes with two fishes and five loaves.

So, given that religion would still be taught as propaganda in T&T's schools, such a class would mainly impart ignorance and intolerance to the students. Which may explain why the Government is pushing the subject, since these are the two attributes that politicians depend on for votes.
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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2011, 04:41:11 PM »
Here nah...I getting more and more respect for this kevin fella.

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Re: How to value religion
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2011, 07:42:16 PM »
How to value religion
By Kevin Baldeosingh (T&T Express)


I wasn't invited to the Education Ministry's stakeholders consultation on the teaching of religion. Maybe the organisers find that I stake religious beliefs too often in my writing. Nonetheless, since I know more about religion than religious leaders in Trinidad and Tobago, I feel I have an intellectual obligation to put in my two cents' worth. And, after hearing Education Minister Tim Gopeesingh's rationale for this new policy, I figure that figure is just about right.

According to Dr Gopeesingh, the Ministry wants "a revised curriculum that mirrors the virtues and values of all the religious groups in the country". But if religion were taught like a proper subject, such as Science, then it wouldn't be a mirror of virtues. Physics teachers don't tell students they should believe Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism because James Maxwell was a teetotaller, and Biology teachers don't argue that evolution is a fact because Charles Darwin never horned his wife. Teaching Religion as it is actually practised here would mean teaching young people how to take money under false pretences such as healing the sick, preventing crime, and stopping hurricanes. (Many students already know how to fornicate while saying "Oh God".) So if Religion is to be a subject which reflects virtue, then English Language teachers would first be required to teach their students a new meaning of the word "virtue".

After all, if nine-year-old school girls are told the age of the Prophet Muhammad's fourth wife, Aisha, they would probably go "Ewww!", indicating that their idea of virtue is different from Muslim scholars', who explain that it was a great honour for Aisha to be chosen by the 53-year-old Muhammad. Now all schools, and not just Muslim ones, will be teaching girls to be ambitious from small, since even a nine-year-old can cook, sweep, and marry their grandfather's friend.

This value of women is also backed up in Christianity and Hinduism, since Corinthians 11:9 says "Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman for the man" while the Bhagavadgita says that women are of "lower birth". Teachers could explain that this doesn't mean women were made to serve man, as a common sense interpretation of these words would suggest, but only that men need someone to wash their clothes. The virtue provided here by Yahweh is the formula to prevent domestic violence in Colossians 3:18-19, which says, "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as fitting in the Lord."

It would be rather more difficult to explain the virtues of the Bhagavadgita, especially to teenage boys from Laventille, since Bhagavan says: "One who is not motivated by ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, does not kill nor is he bound by his actions." Schoolboys may interpret this to mean that, since they aren't doing well in class, they could kill and not go to jail. The teacher should explain that this rule only allows Hindus to kill, and even then only if they're brahmins or ksatriyas. The virtue here is that this would lead to less stigmatisation of little black boys.

On the other hand, teaching Religion could lead to more stigmatisation of little gay boys. Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death". But if this law was followed, would anyone be left to put on plays at Queen's Hall? Would it have to be renamed Kings Hall? However, teachers can take their cue from Seventh-Day Adventist pastor Clive Dottin, who says this is a moral law and not a ceremonial law, which I assume means that you needn't execute homosexuals nowadays but they're all still going to Hell.

Where teachers will have the most problems, though, would be in reconciling religious facts with actual facts. In Mathematics class, students are told that pi is an infinite sequence of numbers of which the first six numbers are 3.14159: but, in 1Kings 7:23, the value of pi is calculated as 3. The fractions in the Quran also contradict what students are taught in Math, since Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state that when a man dies, leaving only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they respectively receive ·, ·, and · inheritance: which adds up to 15/12 of the man's property. Maybe in the first instance, teachers can say that everybody rounds up figures, including Yahweh, and in the second instance claim that this is proof that Allah performs even better miracles than Jesus feeding the multitudes with two fishes and five loaves.

So, given that religion would still be taught as propaganda in T&T's schools, such a class would mainly impart ignorance and intolerance to the students. Which may explain why the Government is pushing the subject, since these are the two attributes that politicians depend on for votes.

Rubbish!!!!   Amateur arguments at best.  "He know more about religion that preachers" Only haters of religion will give this fella an ear after a lead in like that.  This is supposed to be some helpful addition to the debate?  Is this the answer to why religion shouldn't be in schools?  Because people fail at it? 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Bakes

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Re: How to value religion
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2011, 09:51:59 PM »
Rubbish!!!!   Amateur arguments at best.  "He know more about religion that preachers" Only haters of religion will give this fella an ear after a lead in like that.  This is supposed to be some helpful addition to the debate?  Is this the answer to why religion shouldn't be in schools?  Because people fail at it? 

"Nonetheless, since I know more about religion than religious leaders in Trinidad and Tobago"

Considering the number of fly-by-night prophet/ess and pandit running about the place it's hard to actually argue with him.  Approach this... and indeed much of what he said with greater objectivity and you'll see that he actually makes very good points against mandatory religious instruction in schools.  Now whether you agree with his points or not is another matter, but this doesn't affect the actual merits of his points.

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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2011, 10:56:34 PM »
Baldeosingh have a gift...lol

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Re: How to value religion
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2011, 05:36:04 AM »
How to value religion
By Kevin Baldeosingh (T&T Express)


I wasn't invited to the Education Ministry's stakeholders consultation on the teaching of religion. Maybe the organisers find that I stake religious beliefs too often in my writing. Nonetheless, since I know more about religion than religious leaders in Trinidad and Tobago, I feel I have an intellectual obligation to put in my two cents' worth. And, after hearing Education Minister Tim Gopeesingh's rationale for this new policy, I figure that figure is just about right.

According to Dr Gopeesingh, the Ministry wants "a revised curriculum that mirrors the virtues and values of all the religious groups in the country". But if religion were taught like a proper subject, such as Science, then it wouldn't be a mirror of virtues. Physics teachers don't tell students they should believe Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism because James Maxwell was a teetotaller, and Biology teachers don't argue that evolution is a fact because Charles Darwin never horned his wife. Teaching Religion as it is actually practised here would mean teaching young people how to take money under false pretences such as healing the sick, preventing crime, and stopping hurricanes. (Many students already know how to fornicate while saying "Oh God".) So if Religion is to be a subject which reflects virtue, then English Language teachers would first be required to teach their students a new meaning of the word "virtue".

After all, if nine-year-old school girls are told the age of the Prophet Muhammad's fourth wife, Aisha, they would probably go "Ewww!", indicating that their idea of virtue is different from Muslim scholars', who explain that it was a great honour for Aisha to be chosen by the 53-year-old Muhammad. Now all schools, and not just Muslim ones, will be teaching girls to be ambitious from small, since even a nine-year-old can cook, sweep, and marry their grandfather's friend.

This value of women is also backed up in Christianity and Hinduism, since Corinthians 11:9 says "Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman for the man" while the Bhagavadgita says that women are of "lower birth". Teachers could explain that this doesn't mean women were made to serve man, as a common sense interpretation of these words would suggest, but only that men need someone to wash their clothes. The virtue provided here by Yahweh is the formula to prevent domestic violence in Colossians 3:18-19, which says, "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as fitting in the Lord."

It would be rather more difficult to explain the virtues of the Bhagavadgita, especially to teenage boys from Laventille, since Bhagavan says: "One who is not motivated by ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, does not kill nor is he bound by his actions." Schoolboys may interpret this to mean that, since they aren't doing well in class, they could kill and not go to jail. The teacher should explain that this rule only allows Hindus to kill, and even then only if they're brahmins or ksatriyas. The virtue here is that this would lead to less stigmatisation of little black boys.

On the other hand, teaching Religion could lead to more stigmatisation of little gay boys. Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death". But if this law was followed, would anyone be left to put on plays at Queen's Hall? Would it have to be renamed Kings Hall? However, teachers can take their cue from Seventh-Day Adventist pastor Clive Dottin, who says this is a moral law and not a ceremonial law, which I assume means that you needn't execute homosexuals nowadays but they're all still going to Hell.

Where teachers will have the most problems, though, would be in reconciling religious facts with actual facts. In Mathematics class, students are told that pi is an infinite sequence of numbers of which the first six numbers are 3.14159: but, in 1Kings 7:23, the value of pi is calculated as 3. The fractions in the Quran also contradict what students are taught in Math, since Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state that when a man dies, leaving only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they respectively receive ·, ·, and · inheritance: which adds up to 15/12 of the man's property. Maybe in the first instance, teachers can say that everybody rounds up figures, including Yahweh, and in the second instance claim that this is proof that Allah performs even better miracles than Jesus feeding the multitudes with two fishes and five loaves.

So, given that religion would still be taught as propaganda in T&T's schools, such a class would mainly impart ignorance and intolerance to the students. Which may explain why the Government is pushing the subject, since these are the two attributes that politicians depend on for votes.

Rubbish!!!!   Amateur arguments at best.  "He know more about religion that preachers" Only haters of religion will give this fella an ear after a lead in like that.  This is supposed to be some helpful addition to the debate?  Is this the answer to why religion shouldn't be in schools?  Because people fail at it? 

The fella real good.....you miss the point because you feel the man against religion. Read it again.....he being sarcastic, but he summarize the ting for you in the end....... :beermug: :beermug: (Iz lent... so two Fruta)
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2011, 11:09:13 AM »
@ Bakes if the merit of ones' point is based upon over generalizations and a skewed view of the facts, is the point still merited?  Let me give you some merit.  I used to teach RI in Five Rivers and San Juan for 2 years.  I've seen my classes over filled with teens that want to know and hear about God.  I've seen kids crying long tears of sorrow and joy over their faith.  Some of these kids are now leaders in community doing good for people.  They'll say "Preach thanks for coming into my school and sharing the gospel with me."  I never took a cent and I was never paid, ever.  My point is that not everyone is a thief and a crook. There are more good religious people than bad, regardless of what they believe.  The truth of that argument speaks louder than his.  So i see his approach irresponsible because he give no credence to the other side of the story.

@ TC:  Maybe so. But he's using his gift like a corrupt preacher. The only difference is that in this case we are ready and willing to over look his malice.  It's like the coming of an ice cream van on a hot day.

@ Lion: I see his sarcasm but the tone is a vicious one.  Ever been around people that genuinely don't like black people but trying to be nice?  Some stuff just ain't funny.   :beermug: 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 11:25:08 AM by Preacher »
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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2011, 11:11:50 AM »
Why is religion education important at school?

Some much meaningful things to do for a child's development...

Why not change that class instead to community service.  Get the kids outside cleaning up the garbage in there school surroundings, assisting the elderly at the seniors home, assisting at the orphanage, working with the handicap, assisting slow learners....., acting as a mentor to younger students...

You will see how much more these kids will grow from taking on these responsibilities..
Ah say it, how ah see it

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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2011, 11:17:45 AM »
Why is religion education important at school?

Some much meaningful things to do for a child's development...

Why not change that class instead to community service.  Get the kids outside cleaning up the garbage in there school surroundings, assisting the elderly at the seniors home, assisting at the orphanage, working with the handicap, assisting slow learners....., acting as a mentor to younger students...

You will see how much more these kids will grow from taking on these responsibilities..

Why not both?  Check the stats...The kids that do the things that you are talking bout generally have a mild belief in God if not a comprehensive understanding. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

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Re: Religious education to be mandatory
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2011, 12:21:14 PM »
@ Bakes if the merit of ones' point is based upon over generalizations and a skewed view of the facts, is the point still merited?  Let me give you some merit.  I used to teach RI in Five Rivers and San Juan for 2 years.  I've seen my classes over filled with teens that want to know and hear about God.  I've seen kids crying long tears of sorrow and joy over their faith.  Some of these kids are now leaders in community doing good for people.  They'll say "Preach thanks for coming into my school and sharing the gospel with me."  I never took a cent and I was never paid, ever.  My point is that not everyone is a thief and a crook. There are more good religious people than bad, regardless of what they believe.  The truth of that argument speaks louder than his.  So i see his approach irresponsible because he give no credence to the other side of the story.

@ TC:  Maybe so. But he's using his gift like a corrupt preacher. The only difference is that in this case we are ready and willing to over look his malice.  It's like the coming of an ice cream van on a hot day.

@ Lion: I see his sarcasm but the tone is a vicious one.  Ever been around people that genuinely don't like black people but trying to be nice?  Some stuff just ain't funny.   :beermug: 


I think that sometimes the truth hurts in whatever form it takes (sarcasm or not) and Baldeosingh seems to be playing "Devil's advocate" so to speak.

Yes..I have been around people who genuinely don't like black people (they eventually expose themselves anyway), but that was not what I inferred from the article (because he touch on all de religions).

With regard to education in schools, I think it is important at some level, but how it is done is the crux of the matter. The schools should be left do decide how it is done (like the denominational schools at present) and the parents decide where they want to send their children.

I also think that the present format is one of the reasons why there is some degree of religious tolerance in Trinidad, because as children go through the system they absorb things and understand a bit about the different religions i the country.

I remember i had a pardna who was Jehovah Witness so his beliefs did not allow him to sing de anthem..principal say "no problem, you can participate if you want."....end of story, no problem. That is how it should be.

Gov't just getting invovled where they have no business interfering
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

 

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