T&T Immigration swoops on Chinese restaurants.

[chinee boi]

In any given street you seeing ten (chinese) restaurants. From Cedros to San Fernando there are more Chinese restaurants than doubles vendors, which is scary.

that is just plain wrong!  Trinidad is doubles land.

[kicker]

Who cares what fine they got? 

Immigration laws in a progressive society are merely designed to be a control process - people let their fears (xenophobia as Bakes stated) taint their view and perception of immigration....and yuh end up gettin' a setta comments like "send dem home"...and "yuh cyah have more chinee food than doubles in Trinidad" etc...

Diversity and a better standard of living for all regardless of origin, is in the better interest of all countries and progressive societies regardless of the geographic border in which you seek to improve your life...but it must be controlled for many reasons including safety and ensuring that citizens of a particular country maintain their rights to a level of opportunity that would exist for them in a competitive market environment.   

The free market will dictate levels of demand for certain products and services... If there was no demand for what these guys are producing, then the businesses would not survive/exist, there would be no opportunities for them in T&T, and there'd be no reason for them to try to emigrate...so go figure. 

The focus should be on the reform and design of a more effective control mechanism, or even the training of locals to fill the employment gaps which exist...and not so much on the punishment for exploiting what is obviously a weak system of controls.   

[Bakes]

Who cares what fine they got? 

Immigration laws in a progressive society are merely designed to be a control process - people let their fears (xenophobia as Bakes stated) taint their view and perception of immigration....and yuh end up gettin' a setta comments like "send dem home"...and "yuh cyah have more chinee food than doubles in Trinidad" etc...

Diversity and a better standard of living for all regardless of origin, is in the better interest of all countries and progressive societies regardless of the geographic border in which you seek to improve your life...but it must be controlled for many reasons including safety and ensuring that citizens of a particular country maintain their rights to a level of opportunity that would exist for them in a competitive market environment.   

The free market will dictate levels of demand for certain products and services... If there was no demand for what these guys are producing, then the businesses would not survive/exist, there would be no opportunities for them in T&T, and there'd be no reason for them to try to emigrate...so go figure. 

The focus should be on the reform and design of a more effective control mechanism, or even the training of locals to fill the employment gaps which exist...and not so much on the punishment for exploiting what is obviously a weak system of controls.   

I think a good way to achieve this would be to mandate for all the "foreign" owned chinese food stores, that they hire locals along with their own staff, rather than just bring in they cousins 3x removed and paying them below the table.  As much as it butts up against free market policies, we are not an absolute free-market society anyways, and licensure is a privilege, not a right, so gov't can always attach "hire local" policies onto any such permission to operate.

[kicker]

I think a good way to achieve this would be to mandate for all the "foreign" owned chinese food stores, that they hire locals along with their own staff, rather than just bring in they cousins 3x removed and paying them below the table.  As much as it butts up against free market policies, we are not an absolute free-market society anyways, and licensure is a privilege, not a right, so gov't can always attach "hire local" policies onto any such permission to operate.

Yeah that's reasonable, and it  barely if at all infringes on free market forces so long as there is a natural supply of locals to meet that demand for labor...

[Peong]

Yeah this was in Trinidad. Tacarigua to be exact. Man trying to paint me as xenophobic and such. I have no problem with chinese who enter this country legally and are making an honest living. They pay their taxes and contribute to the economy. My only concern is with illegal citizens of any race and nationality slipping into this country so easily.

My only argument is who cares how they get in de country or how much bribe they pay... is not like they trying to live below the radar and sponge off society.  If they trying to become legal work an honest day's job and pay they taxes like everybody else... then exactly how are they different from the ones who migrate legally?

Having read your posts over the past however long you strike me as a reasonable fella so I was surprise when I see you post what yuh did.  No other way to explain it other than xenophobia... me eh trying to paint you as nothing, I telling you what yuh words conveying.

They need to pay taxes from the start, which is not happening if they are being paid under the table.
Plus who knows how many of them are actually trying to become legal?  They could be happy going along for the ride as long as it lasts.  Lots of ppl do that in the US.

[Bakes]

They need to pay taxes from the start, which is not happening if they are being paid under the table.
Plus who knows how many of them are actually trying to become legal?  They could be happy going along for the ride as long as it lasts.  Lots of ppl do that in the US.

Big deal if they not paying their taxes "from the start"... as long as they doing so and contributing like anybody else once legal that is all that matters.  As for those who "happy going along for the ride" it easy to find them out, is not like Trinidad THAT multi-ethnic that we can't figure out which chinese in the country legally from who not. 

The overall point isn't to say open up the doors to everybody, but to show how ridiculous it is to demonize a class/race of people based on the fact that they're illegal immigrants.  Using your US example, there are many legal residents who are engaging in criminality, and there are many (I would even say most) illegal immigrants more concerned with keeping their heads down and working hard than with committing crime.

[Peong]

They need to pay taxes from the start, which is not happening if they are being paid under the table.
Plus who knows how many of them are actually trying to become legal?  They could be happy going along for the ride as long as it lasts.  Lots of ppl do that in the US.

Big deal if they not paying their taxes "from the start"... as long as they doing so and contributing like anybody else once legal that is all that matters.  As for those who "happy going along for the ride" it easy to find them out, is not like Trinidad THAT multi-ethnic that we can't figure out which chinese in the country legally from who not. 

The overall point isn't to say open up the doors to everybody, but to show how ridiculous it is to demonize a class/race of people based on the fact that they're illegal immigrants.  Using your US example, there are many legal residents who are engaging in criminality, and there are many (I would even say most) illegal immigrants more concerned with keeping their heads down and working hard than with committing crime.

Some ppl will not care about the monetary benefits to the country of illegals paying income tax, and for those I could see why it's not a big deal if illegals don't pay taxes until they are legal.
However, infrastructure and services have a cost, and they should contribute.

And I am not confident about those who are set on remaining illegal being found out.  Enforcement of laws is a big problem in our country.

In the US:
Illegals who decide to engage in further criminal activity is a whole other topic.
Of the illegal immigrants who just want to work, the only ones who pay taxes are those who steal a social security number.  So on one hand they paying taxes, but on the other they are engaging in and increasing the demand for identity theft.

[Bakes]

Some ppl will not care about the monetary benefits to the country of illegals paying income tax, and for those I could see why it's not a big deal if illegals don't pay taxes until they are legal.
However, infrastructure and services have a cost, and they should contribute.

And I am not confident about those who are set on remaining illegal being found out.  Enforcement of laws is a big problem in our country.

In the US:
Illegals who decide to engage in further criminal activity is a whole other topic.
Of the illegal immigrants who just want to work, the only ones who pay taxes are those who steal a social security number.   So on one hand they paying taxes, but on the other they are engaging in and increasing the demand for identity theft.

False.

Many "pay" with fake social security numbers... many also have taxes taken out by their employers who then don't pass along the taxes because they have failed to set up EIN's for their employees.  And that's only income taxes we're talking about...  sales taxes pay for a great many other social programs, and of course, we all pay those.  Relevance you ask?  It goes to your "going along for the ride" comment.  Many have no problem contributing their fair share.

"Illegals who decide to engage in further criminal activity"... what's the initial criminal activity?

As for the lack of enforcement of the laws in TnT... therefore the problem lies not with illegal immigration, but with law enforcement.  Not a strong argument against immigration.

[Peong]

Some ppl will not care about the monetary benefits to the country of illegals paying income tax, and for those I could see why it's not a big deal if illegals don't pay taxes until they are legal.
However, infrastructure and services have a cost, and they should contribute.

And I am not confident about those who are set on remaining illegal being found out.  Enforcement of laws is a big problem in our country.

In the US:
Illegals who decide to engage in further criminal activity is a whole other topic.
Of the illegal immigrants who just want to work, the only ones who pay taxes are those who steal a social security number.   So on one hand they paying taxes, but on the other they are engaging in and increasing the demand for identity theft.

False.

Many "pay" with fake social security numbers... many also have taxes taken out by their employers who then don't pass along the taxes because they have failed to set up EIN's for their employees.  And that's only income taxes we're talking about...  sales taxes pay for a great many other social programs, and of course, we all pay those.  Relevance you ask?  It goes to your "going along for the ride" comment.  Many have no problem contributing their fair share.

Yes and there are also those who use a friend's or relative's SSN.  Still, many do use stolen SSN's and fuel demand and it's a serious problem.

"Illegals who decide to engage in further criminal activity"... what's the initial criminal activity?

Entering or remaining in the US illegally is a crime.

As for the lack of enforcement of the laws in TnT... therefore the problem lies not with illegal immigration, but with law enforcement.  Not a strong argument against immigration.

I'm not arguing against immigration at all.

Back to these fellas. I'm not sure what the rules are but it looks like they can get work permits.  Besides the one who said that he thought he didn't need to since he started the citizenship path, I wonder what their excuses are.

[Peong]

Bakes in FL I pay roughly 1/3 of my yearly pay in tax, plus sales tax on top of that. Sales tax not comin remotely close to that.

[Bakes]

Yes and there are also those who use a friend's or relative's SSN.  Still, many do use stolen SSN's and fuel demand and it's a serious problem.

You arguing against yuhself... I never said they don't use stolen SS#s I countered your assertion that stealing someone else's identity is the only way that they pay taxes.  It's not.  Even then, it's not identity theft unless they use the other person's SS# to commit a crime.  Doh argue with me, argue with the US Supreme Court and their ruling in Flores-Figueroa v. United States 2009.

Entering or remaining in the US illegally is a crime.

I knew that's where yuh was going which is why I asked the question.  Yuh might want to check your sources again because entering and staying in the US illegally is not a crime anymore than jaywalking is a crime.  It is a violation of civil regulation (IRS rules), punishable by a fine and/or deportation only, not any criminal law.  This is a common misconception coming out of the far-right nut house. 

Back to these fellas. I'm not sure what the rules are but it looks like they can get work permits.  Besides the one who said that he thought he didn't need to since he started the citizenship path, I wonder what their excuses are.

Maybe they're not eligible... or applied and were denied.... or didn't have the money for the application fee.  You never know.

[Peong]

I knew that's where yuh was going which is why I asked the question.  Yuh might want to check your sources again because entering and staying in the US illegally is not a crime anymore than jaywalking is a crime.  It is a violation of civil regulation (IRS rules), punishable by a fine and/or deportation only, not any criminal law.  This is a common misconception coming out of the far-right nut house. 

Ok I'll amend what I said to :
Illegals who decide to engage in further illegal activity is a whole other topic.

You arguing against yuhself... I never said they don't use stolen SS#s I countered your assertion that stealing someone else's identity is the only way that they pay taxes.  It's not. 

I'm not arguing with myself, I'm willing to correct when I said "only" and state another scenario that neither of us covered because this modification doesn't take away from my point.

Even then, it's not identity theft unless they use the other person's SS# to commit a crime.  Doh argue with me, argue with the US Supreme Court and their ruling in Flores-Figueroa v. United States 2009.

That case you cite is about aggravated identity theft.  There's a difference.

[Bakes]

That case you cite is about aggravated identity theft.  There's a difference.

Nah the court recognizes a difference between identity theft by criminals or with criminal intent... and "identity theft" in a looser sense where the illegal immigrant uses someone else's information to get a job.  I agree that there's a legal distinction between identity theft and aggravated identity theft, but as far as the law is concerned, identity theft really isn't at issue in this particular immigration context.

[Peong]

So it's not an issue as far as prosecution goes, but like I said, illegal workers are engaging in and fueling identity theft.

[congo]

Cops link Chinese to organised crime

Police say the murder of Maraval businessman Anthony Chen and the kidnapping of restaurant owner Xue Hua Shan, who is still missing, are linked, but the cases may never be solved. Suspects were extensively questioned and released, but investigators have been unable to make any breakthroughs leading to arrests. Shan, 31, was kidnapped a month ago, a few metres from her home at Seventh Street, Barataria. She is the owner of Happy Garden Restaurant located on Main Road, St Helena.

http://guardian.co.tt/news/2011/05/16/cops-link-chinese-organised-crime

[Daft Trini]

So it's not an issue as far as prosecution goes, but like I said, illegal workers are engaging in and fueling identity theft.

A man in Fairfax County, VA was busted about 2 weeks ago in an  Identity theft ring. It was reported that he produced tens of thousands of fake ID and produced SS cards with legit social security numbers.

A marine buddy of mine was serving in AFG, and came back to find that his SSN was stolen by an illegal and the illegal ran up a huge debt with his info...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/manassas-man-called-key-player-in-fake-id-card-ring/2011/05/05/AFhSojCG_story.html