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Author Topic: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes  (Read 107534 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #510 on: June 10, 2011, 09:47:02 PM »
I'm not sure I agree. US foreign policy is carefully thought out and planned. They would try to put a cap on any overt efforts to upset a strategic ally. Look how the UK and Russian govts got behind their bids. Football at global level is a very emotive sport and govts do watch the effects of decisions such as this.

Regarding Gibbs etc, the fact that we don't know if money was illegally brought into T&T is precisely why it should be investigated. Even if, as you say, Jack had the money here, then that too should be investigated. Remember, you can't simply withdraw US$1 million in cash from a bank. So where did it come from? Was it illegally obtained? Were taxes paid? All of these questions are worthy of investigation. We also know that 24 overseas visitors took US$40,000 illegally out of T&T and its now been stated by the Surinam guy that he was offered a number to call if he had problems at Piarco. This must be investigated. 

The US government isn't even remotely interested in "soccer" as is the UK's and Russia's... so flawed comparison.  Obama might play the part to help the US get the bid, because it would be nice to have on his resume and to provide a limited stimulus to local economies... but to imply that he's ready to get onboard the USSF bandwagon or vice versa is somewhat uninformed.

As for Gibbs... before I answer on his stance I still want to find out what potential laws Jack may have violated.  However, my stance is similar to Killa's in that Bin Hammam said the money was wired.  Cash then materialized in the country and a very plausible explanation is that Jack withdrew the sums here.  You are right that one cannot simply walk into a bank and withdraw US $1M... but not everyone is Jack Warner.  I'm sure he has his means.  At the same time he just as well may have snuck the money in.  I tend to agree with Gibbs in that you can't go off on a wild goose chase everytime the press raises a stink about something.  Manpower and other resources are scarce... and frankly, in light of everything else currently going on in TnT... investigating how the money got into TnT is very low on the list of priorities.  So allocation of resources and upholding the integrity (chuckle as we may at that) of the Police Service are very good reasons to not investigate at this point.

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #511 on: June 10, 2011, 10:34:39 PM »
Well, again, Bakes, our opinions or "take" on this are different!!
And again, perhaps I wasn't clear in my statements.

When I said : "I'm not sure I agree. US foreign policy is carefully thought out and planned. They would try to put a cap on any overt efforts to upset a strategic ally." That is a political observation meaning USA would try not to upset Qatar and may request USSF not to oppose 2022. I then said  "Look how the UK and Russian govts got behind their bids." which was supposed to point out that governments do take an interest (for whatever reason) in global sporting competitions on the scale of the Olympics & World Cups. I did not necessarily mean Obama & co gave a toss about soccerball, but that they could exert pressure on USSF if they deemed it necessary.

Regarding Gibbs, you said "I still want to find out what potential laws Jack may have violated." As a man in the legal profession, I am sure there are possible laws that you are aware of that may have been broken. I appreciate you are playing devils advocate and adding balance to weigh against the anti Warner vibe here, but I have previously listed several laws that I feel may have been broken and some of these have been mentioned in the press. But as a legal man, what laws do you think MAY have been broken?

This case currently has the eyes of the world upon it. Warner is a senior member of the Govt. Regardless of manpower etc, it is in the interests of the country that this is investigated and either dismissed or charges brought. The govt have ordered inquiries into several domestic matters, but this is being played out internationally. I simply can't see why Gibbs should not investigate. However, he has now announced he is requesting files from FIFA. Now that should bother any neutral. If Blatter really does want to get rid of Jack, he can supply evidence that may not have been uncovered had Gibbs conducted his own inquiry. So we've moved from asking for a local policeman to investigate events in T&T to requesting files from Zurich. Although this is acceptable, if I wanted to contain this "scandal" I'd have kept things local. We spoke before about Blazer and the US influence in the FIFA investigation, and now, for no reason, Gibbs will allow Blazer to influence a local police inquiry.

Finally, I find it amusing that Lisle Austin says he had intentions of ordering a forensic audit of CONCACAF books. I'd love to see the outcome of that one!!

Oh yes, and lets not forget that TTFF have to present their final audited accounts to the court on Thursday. Busy times for the boys at TTFF!!   

Offline dreamer

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #512 on: June 11, 2011, 05:46:00 AM »

Austin seeks FIFA intervention into CONCACAF imbroglio

Jamaica Observer
Saturday, June 11, 2011


BRIDGETOWN, Barbados (CMC) — Deposed acting CONCACAF president Lisle Austin vowed to restore order to the governing body for the game in the North, Central American and Caribbean.

Austin was suspended from the position of acting president last Saturday in a convoluted twist to the bribery scandal that has swirled around the confederation.

The decision was apparently taken by the majority of the CONCACAF Executive Committee members after he fired general secretary Chuck Blazer over the scandal.

Austin had been embroiled in a confrontation with Blazer ever since he replaced CONCACAF president Jack Warner, who was suspended from all activity connected with the game, pending an investigation into corruption allegations by the ethics committee of the sport's world governing body, FIFA.

Austin said on Thursday that CONCACAF was under attack from within by those who refuse to respect the statutes of the organisation.

"They have no regard for the rights and interests of the members at large," he said in a statement.

"I will not stand idly by while this happens and hope, through FIFA intervention or other means, to restore order to CONCACAF as soon as possible."

He added: "These actions and additional statements questioning my leadership are being engineered by a faction of CONCACAF attempting to unlawfully seize control.

"The actions and statements of these persons are beyond their authority, and are neither the actions of, nor binding upon, CONCACAF. As acting president, I will take all appropriate steps to remedy these actions."

Austin revealed that earlier this week, he advised FIFA president Sepp Blatter of the actual course of events related to the governance of CONCACAF since May 29.

"I urged his intervention to ensure that the statutes of CONCACAF are honoured," said Austin. "Any and all guidance from FIFA in resolving the unfortunate situation at CONCACAF is most welcome.

"I am committed to protecting the institution of which I am acting president, and asked Mr Blatter to recognise my rights in that role.

"Further uncertainty will only serve to frustrate the goals of transparency and reform not only for CONFACAF, but for the sport of association football."

Austin reiterated that under the statutes of CONCACAF, the Executive Committee has no authority to "suspend" the president — only the Confederation in Congress can remove the president, and only FIFA can suspend the president of CONCACAF.

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Offline Bakes

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #513 on: June 11, 2011, 08:26:37 AM »
I did not necessarily mean Obama & co gave a toss about soccerball, but that they could exert pressure on USSF if they deemed it necessary.


... and as I said to you, it would be up to the USSF to listen if they so desire.  I don't see any scenario under which pressure could be brought to bear upon the US gov't by Qatar to the point that they feel that obligated to get involved.  Some of you are playing up Qatar's import to the US to be more than it actually is.


Quote
Regarding Gibbs, you said "I still want to find out what potential laws Jack may have violated." As a man in the legal profession, I am sure there are possible laws that you are aware of that may have been broken. I appreciate you are playing devils advocate and adding balance to weigh against the anti Warner vibe here, but I have previously listed several laws that I feel may have been broken and some of these have been mentioned in the press. But as a legal man, what laws do you think MAY have been broken?


Why would you assume that I am playing devil's advocate?  I don't think you can look at my history on this site and ever find support for such an assumption.  If there were laws that he broke that I was aware of I would have commented on them already.  Simply put many people are ignorant of the law... unaware of both what's legal from what's not.  Some things may be morally questionable but not illegal.  Your assumption is that cash was brought into the country in violation of some law.  I don't even know that cash WAS indeed brought in.

Quote
I simply can't see why Gibbs should not investigate. However, he has now announced he is requesting files from FIFA. Now that should bother any neutral.

I don't understand... WHAT is it that you (and Hinds) want Gibbs to investigate??  Where the cash came from?  Is that the smoking gun you're looking for?  Do you even know what the penalty for that offense is?  I just get the feeling that you're so desperate for them to get Warner... on ANYTHING... that you're clinging to this issue with both hands.  I honestly think you'll be disappointed in the end... this is a slap on the wrist offense, likely payable by fine.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #514 on: June 11, 2011, 09:26:14 AM »
Caribbean official acknowledges cash bribe in FIFA scandal
Arny Belfor
Paramaribo, Suriname— The Associated Press
Published Friday, Jun. 10, 2011

 

Caribbean soccer official acknowledged on Friday getting $40,000 in cash at a meeting that is being investigated in a FIFA bribery scandal.

Suriname federation president Louis Giskus said he received an envelope containing four piles of $100 bills at a Caribbean Football Union conference staged in Trinidad for members to meet then-FIFA presidential candidate Mohamed bin Hammam.

.....

Giskus told The Associated Press he reported the cash gift to FIFA's ethics committee after it suspended bin Hammam and FIFA's Trinidadian vice president Jack Warner pending a full inquiry into the gravest corruption crisis to hit soccer's world governing body.

“(Suriname's) reputation is worth more than $40,000,” said Giskus, who is helping a FIFA team that includes former FBI agents investigate the alleged bribery.

Giskus said he was not initially suspicious because officials typically got gifts on FIFA-related business, and Warner often handled transactions in cash.

Bin Hammam, Warner and two union employees are provisionally barred from duty while facing accusations of paying bribes to up to 25 Caribbean voters during the Qatari's failed campaign to unseat FIFA President Sepp Blatter. All four have denied any wrongdoing.

Giskus said Warner invited him to the May 10-11 expenses-paid conference promising gift packages for union members. The meeting was announced when bin Hammam did not attend the North and Central American and Caribbean (CONCACAF) congress in Miami one week earlier.

After hearing bin Hammam's election pitch at a Port of Spain hotel, officials were led to a lobby to receive a laptop and an envelope, Giskus said.

“The whole thing was handled by two people from the CFU secretariat we know very well because we meet and speak with them often,” he said. “When I saw that there was money in the envelope I asked what it was for. They could not explain it to me.”

Giskus recalled that CONCACAF members were told they had enjoyed good financial results in its 50th anniversary year and Blatter had promised a $1 million “birthday present” from FIFA.

“So at the time we received the $40,000, I thought that this money had something to do with everything we had heard (in Miami),” Giskus said.

Giskus said that he and a colleague counted the money and wrote down the serial numbers of the four stacks of $100 bills. He said he had “all the paperwork to prove that” the money was deposited in the Suriname federation's local bank account, where it remains.

The scandal emerged after Bahamas officials returned the cash and alerted CONCACAF general secretary Chuck Blazer, who commissioned an initial probe that found whistleblowers from three more countries who refused to accept payments. Puerto Rico, like Suriname, confessed at the FIFA Congress in Zurich earlier this month that it had accepted the payments.

Giskus said he did not suspect the money came from bin Hammam, who told FIFA's ethics panel he transferred $360,000 to the CFU to meet conference costs.

“Surely I did not feel any obligation to vote for bin Hamman after receiving the money. It was clear — Blatter had already proven that he could deliver results while bin Hamman only had promises,” Giskus said.

Bin Hammam withdrew from the presidential contest hours before his ethics hearing, and three days ahead of the June 1 poll at FIFA's congress that elected Blatter unopposed for a fourth and a final four-year term.

During a phone interview with The Associated Press, Giskus took calls from investigators for FIFA gathering evidence for a full ethics inquiry expected next month.

Giskus said he gave statements in Zurich last week and does not expect to be called to interviews scheduled to start in the Bahamas on Tuesday. FIFA investigators hope to speak with officials from about 18 CFU members who have denied being offered payments.

———

« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 09:27:56 AM by dreamer »
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #515 on: June 11, 2011, 09:55:32 AM »

"I don't understand... WHAT is it that you (and Hinds) want Gibbs to investigate??  Where the cash came from?  Is that the smoking gun you're looking for?  Do you even know what the penalty for that offense is?  I just get the feeling that you're so desperate for them to get Warner... on ANYTHING... that you're clinging to this issue with both hands.  I honestly think you'll be disappointed in the end... this is a slap on the wrist offense, likely payable by fine."

I believe the penalty is double the amount brought into the country and/or 8 years imprisonment.

And as you quite rightly pointed out, you don't know if the cash was brought into the country. That implies that also, you don't know is WASN'T brought into the country. What we do both know is that a large some of foreign currency was allegedly dispersed in Trinidad. That then logically leads to the question, "where did it come from?". Assuming it didn't enter the country illegally, I believe the source should be confirmed. Jack could simply show Gibbs the source of the funds and there would be no need to continue investigations.

To the majority of T&T citizens, TT$6 million is an unimaginable amount of money. Customs, Inland Revenue and Police should all be interested in its source. Regardless of who the alleged culprit is, it should be looked into. Whether the suspect is Jack, Camps, Rowley, Kamla, Dwight Yorke, Bunji Garlin, whoever, it should be resolved through the relevent authorities.

I apologise for the devils advocate statement, I truly believed you were taking that stance.   














Offline royal

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #516 on: June 11, 2011, 10:00:09 AM »
dey still had to go through Miami to get to the Bahamas.Dey could hold  people on dey way back. 

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #517 on: June 11, 2011, 10:03:10 AM »
dey still had to go through Miami to get to the Bahamas.Dey could hold  people on dey way back. 

They would have no authority, this is a private investigation not a US police investigation. However, if there was evidence of any wrongdoing while at the CONCACAF meeting in Miami and FIFA reported it, they could detain people, but I feel thats very, very unlikely.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #518 on: June 11, 2011, 03:13:55 PM »

"I don't understand... WHAT is it that you (and Hinds) want Gibbs to investigate??  Where the cash came from?  Is that the smoking gun you're looking for?  Do you even know what the penalty for that offense is?  I just get the feeling that you're so desperate for them to get Warner... on ANYTHING... that you're clinging to this issue with both hands.  I honestly think you'll be disappointed in the end... this is a slap on the wrist offense, likely payable by fine."

I believe the penalty is double the amount brought into the country and/or 8 years imprisonment.

I would be shocked out of my shoes if the penalty for this offense is that steep as it is grossly out of step with similar penalties elsewhere.  But for now I'd have to take your word for it.

Quote
And as you quite rightly pointed out, you don't know if the cash was brought into the country. That implies that also, you don't know is WASN'T brought into the country. What we do both know is that a large some of foreign currency was allegedly dispersed in Trinidad. That then logically leads to the question, "where did it come from?". Assuming it didn't enter the country illegally, I believe the source should be confirmed. Jack could simply show Gibbs the source of the funds and there would be no need to continue investigations.

Why should Jack have to declare the source of the cash... I'm afraid you just don't understand how law enforcement works.  You can't just go prying around into the private affairs of citizens without probable cause to believe that a crime was committed.  If police hold a man walking down the street and find $10,000 cash on him do you think they can force him to tell them the source of the money or how it got into TnT?  If you do then you have another thing coming to you. Just because there are rumors that he's a drug dealer don't give the police the right to start "investigating" him.  Without more there is no reason to believe a crime was committed.  That scenario is directly analogous to the CFU bribe issue.

Quote
To the majority of T&T citizens, TT$6 million is an unimaginable amount of money. Customs, Inland Revenue and Police should all be interested in its source. Regardless of who the alleged culprit is, it should be looked into. Whether the suspect is Jack, Camps, Rowley, Kamla, Dwight Yorke, Bunji Garlin, whoever, it should be resolved through the relevent authorities.

I apologise for the devils advocate statement, I truly believed you were taking that stance.   

Again... why?  Your use of the word "culprit" indicates that you believe the person is guilty of some wrongdoing... on the basis of rumors and innuendos.  Somehow you think that's sufficient to force them to disclose private sensitive information when it's not.  I used the figure $10,000 above because it's a lot lower than $1M, but still a very large amount.  What if I'd used $1,000... or $100?  What is the cut-off for triggering scrutiny?  It can't be arbitrary... whatever "seems" like "too much".  Currently there's no offense for having $1M in foreign currency in the country, and the "source" was already revealed by Bin Hammam's statement that he wired the money into a CFU account.  I would think that Jack Warner has access to withdrawals from a CFU account without having to leave the country.

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #519 on: June 11, 2011, 09:09:27 PM »
bin Hammam wired US$360,000 to CFU. Warner has confirmed that total costs were US$260,000. According to some eye witness statements, all 25 CFU nations were offered a brown envelope containing US$40,000, US$1 million in total.

I'm assuming there are different laws in T&T & USA than in England, because the British police can detain anyone they suspect of a crime. They can demand confirmation of the source of funds, even £10. Now, of course, they need to prove they had a certain degree of evidence otherwise they can be sued for wrongful arrest. In a case such as this, they would probably either request an interview with Mr Warner or invite him to the police station to "help with their enquiries". Mr Warner would no doubt attend with his lawyer. At this point there are two outcomes: Mr Warner would answer the questions and the police would recognise their is no crime to investigate, or Mr Lalla would advise his client to answer every question with "no comment". This would then lead the police to continue their enquiries and apply to a judge for a warrent to access Mr Warner's financial affairs.
Because the police would have several items pointing to an actual crime being committed, i.e. a photograph of a brown envelope containing US$40,000 allegedly taken at the CFU conference, at least 3 sworn affidavits confirming the envelopes were distributed by CFU officials, a statement alledging a CFU official provided a phone number in case there were problems taking the money out of Trinidad via Piarco, they would probably be granted a warrant by the judge.
As I keep pointing out, nobody here knows if a crime was commited and if it was, if Jack was involved. Thats why the police need to investigate. It appears as if a crime has taken place. FIFA, for whatever reason, have decided to launch an investigation which has public interest. The police should investigate.

As for your statement about an arrested man with $10,000, I would believe that any police force in the world has a right to determine the source of the cash. All he has to do is show the source, such as a bank statement, betting slip, whatever. If you're innocent, why should it bother you? If you can't prove the source of the funds, I believe the police can hold the money until proof of ownership is provided. What kind of police force can't make inquiries if it suspects laws are broken? In fact, police often arrest people they suspect of planning to commit a crime, I think its something like "conspiring to commit an offence". Crime prevention as they call it. So, its logical that if you can be arrested for planning a crime, but not yet actually committed a crime, surely you can be investigated if there is proof a crime has been committed and you're a suspect?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 09:12:48 PM by Football supporter »

Offline elan

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #520 on: June 11, 2011, 10:10:03 PM »
You have to show where you get that money from. Unless they changed recently, you could not even open a bank account unless you can SHOW how you will maintain the account. Fishermen, Farmers and other "self-employed" people in T&T use to ketch arse to open an account.
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #521 on: June 11, 2011, 10:58:13 PM »
bin Hammam wired US$360,000 to CFU. Warner has confirmed that total costs were US$260,000. According to some eye witness statements, all 25 CFU nations were offered a brown envelope containing US$40,000, US$1 million in total.

I'm assuming there are different laws in T&T & USA than in England, because the British police can detain anyone they suspect of a crime. They can demand confirmation of the source of funds, even £10. Now, of course, they need to prove they had a certain degree of evidence otherwise they can be sued for wrongful arrest. In a case such as this, they would probably either request an interview with Mr Warner or invite him to the police station to "help with their enquiries". Mr Warner would no doubt attend with his lawyer. At this point there are two outcomes: Mr Warner would answer the questions and the police would recognise their is no crime to investigate, or Mr Lalla would advise his client to answer every question with "no comment". This would then lead the police to continue their enquiries and apply to a judge for a warrent to access Mr Warner's financial affairs.

I can unequivocally tell you that on this note you are very wrong.  In every common law jurisdiction (US, UK, TnT, Canada etc.) you need "probable cause" to arrest.  You qualify your statement by saying "of course, they need...evidence".  Yes, my friend... this is called having probable cause.  They cannot "detain anyone they suspect of a crime".  Suspecting someone of a crime and having probable cause to arrest are two completely different things.  And EVEN SO, there isn't even suspicion of a crime.  All they have is Jack Warner allegedly with a large amount of cash.  Not knowing how he got the money into the country and suspecting that he committed a crime in doing so are two different things.  Simply put you are making a logical link between the funds and criminality that on the facts, just isn't there at this point.

Quote
Because the police would have several items pointing to an actual crime being committed, i.e. a photograph of a brown envelope containing US$40,000 allegedly taken at the CFU conference, at least 3 sworn affidavits confirming the envelopes were distributed by CFU officials, a statement alledging a CFU official provided a phone number in case there were problems taking the money out of Trinidad via Piarco, they would probably be granted a warrant by the judge.
As I keep pointing out, nobody here knows if a crime was commited and if it was, if Jack was involved. Thats why the police need to investigate. It appears as if a crime has taken place. FIFA, for whatever reason, have decided to launch an investigation which has public interest. The police should investigate.

You are all over the place with your statements, contradicting yourself as you attempt to draw connections that as of now just don't exist. You claim that photos of the cash is "evidence of a crime being committed" really??  Money being distributed to CFU officials raises an inference of criminality... how??  Then you close with "nobody knows if a crime has been committed"  therefore police need to investigate.  BASED ON WHAT?  Jack having large sums of cash?  That is beyond ridiculous... just look at the facts objectively and you'll see for yourself.  Don't be so eager to hang Jack by the neck that you end up clutching at irrational straws.  I have no interest in defending Jack and would be happy to see him gone... but enough with pikes and torches already.  Come with actual evidence of wrongdoing, not assumptions.  The police cannot investigate on the basis of assumptions because how will they find anything?  They can't force it from Jack and can't go to the banks to find out without a warrant.  And I'm telling you, there is nothing here to give rise to probable cause for a warrant.  You don't have to take my word for it.

Quote
As for your statement about an arrested man with $10,000, I would believe that any police force in the world has a right to determine the source of the cash. All he has to do is show the source, such as a bank statement, betting slip, whatever. If you're innocent, why should it bother you? If you can't prove the source of the funds, I believe the police can hold the money until proof of ownership is provided. What kind of police force can't make inquiries if it suspects laws are broken? In fact, police often arrest people they suspect of planning to commit a crime, I think its something like "conspiring to commit an offence". Crime prevention as they call it. So, its logical that if you can be arrested for planning a crime, but not yet actually committed a crime, surely you can be investigated if there is proof a crime has been committed and you're a suspect?

I think it's best we just agree to disagree... because I'm not the most patient person in the world, and frankly I have little patience for the mindset displayed by the bolded.  Living as a black man in this country has made me very sensitive to the issue of civil liberties and I am fiercely protective of mine.  I want no part of a society where the police can simply pull you over without cause, search you and start questioning you without even suspecting me of a crime.  If I have $1 in my pocket or $10,000 that's my motherf**king business... as is how I got it.  It's not a crime to walk around with large sums of cash or be in possession of it.  The police have a right to ask, and I have a right to tell them it's none of their business, ask if I'm under arrest, and if they say yes, ask for my lawyer without saying another word.  If I'm not under arrest then be on my way.  I understand that that is how police work in TnT, but that is not what the law allows... they get away with it because people don't know their right and there's no one to hold the police accountable.

You're trying to tell me the police have a right to hold my money until I can tell them where I got it?  Are you really listening to yourself?  No offense, but you sound like a damn sheep... if they tell you to jump off a building would you do it too?  You're probably one of these people who think the police can do no wrong.  "If you're innocent, why should it bother you?" BECAUSE I'M INNOCENT!! that's why.  Don't treat me like a blasted criminal if all I'm doing is minding my business.  If you want to live in a world where the police can pull you over whenever they like question you and hold your personal property until you satisfy their questions then good for you... Russia and Communist China will love you.  But that sort of thinking has no place in a functioning democracy.

-----------------------------------------------


Elan, try and maintain focus... nobody's talking about opening a bank account here.  Jack don't have to show anything just because he "allegedly" was in possession of large sums of cash.

Offline elan

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #522 on: June 11, 2011, 11:14:52 PM »

Elan, try and maintain focus... nobody's talking about opening a bank account here.  Jack don't have to show anything just because he "allegedly" was in possession of large sums of cash.

You said

If police hold a man walking down the street and find $10,000 cash on him do you think they can force him to tell them the source of the money or how it got into TnT?  If you do then you have another thing coming to you. Just

I said you have to explain to the police where you get that money. I just added the bank account part to try to explashiate....daiz all. But again, you must tell the police where you get that money or you eh going anywhere.
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #523 on: June 11, 2011, 11:22:56 PM »

Elan, try and maintain focus... nobody's talking about opening a bank account here.  Jack don't have to show anything just because he "allegedly" was in possession of large sums of cash.

You said

If police hold a man walking down the street and find $10,000 cash on him do you think they can force him to tell them the source of the money or how it got into TnT?  If you do then you have another thing coming to you. Just

I said you have to explain to the police where you get that money. I just added the bank account part to try to explashiate....daiz all. But again, you must tell the police where you get that money or you eh going anywhere.

Even in Trinidad... police could ask you whatever they want but no court will force you to disclose where you get the money simply based on them finding you with the money.  If you have drugs on you or they have other evidence of wrongdoing is another matter.  But simply them stopping you... even if they arrest you for something else... unless they can tie the cash to criminal activity you don't have to tell them anything.  This is what I mean by people not knowing their rights.

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #524 on: June 12, 2011, 10:17:26 AM »
As we have often commented in this discussion, I know little about the details of law. I have been trained in money laundering a financial adviser specifically when it involves tax evasion. I appreciate I may be misguided as UK law may well be different than T&T & US laws. But this is my understanding:

Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate. The money involved can be generated by any number of criminal acts, including drug dealing, corruption, accounting and other types of fraud, and tax evasion.


Police in the UK, at least, use this legislation to investigate various types of financial crimes, including tax evasion. The original legislation referred purely to drug trafficking and the oroceeds of crime. (In fact it is believed the term "money laundering" was introduced after the sentencing of Al Capone, who used dry cleaning stores as a way of, literally, laundering his money). Although Police may not suspect the suspect of drugs or other organised crime, they can use the legislation if they suspect a financial crime has taken place.

Salt Lake City Olympic bribe scandal.

The international sports community was rocked by a bribery scandal involving the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City, Utah. Two officials of the Utah committee that secured the games were indicted in 2000 on charges of wire and Mail Fraud, conspiracy, and interstate travel in aid of Racketeering. They were charged with paying an official of the U.S. Olympic Committee (USOC) to help influence the selection of Salt Lake City by the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The USOC official who received the bribes later pleaded guilty to several criminal charges including the accepting of a bribe.

Federal prosecutors contended that the two officials had paid $1 million to influence votes of several IOC members. In addition, they had allegedly diverted some $130,000 of the bid committee's income, and had altered books and created false contracts to conceal their actions. The two officials denied that they had done anything wrong, contending that the payments were intended as grants and scholarships for poor athletes. Following the indictments, ten members of the IOC either resigned or were expelled from the organization, and many reforms were undertaken to prevent bribery. The USOC also authorized an independent review of its practices.

However, the two Utah officials successfully challenged the bribery charges. In July 2001, a federal judge dismissed the bribery charges, finding that a Utah bribery statute could not be applied to the defendants' actions. In December 2001, the judge dismissed the remaining criminal counts.


Non declaration of funds in T&T

The penalty for the filing of a false declaration under the Customs Act is a fine of three times the value of the item not so declared or a term of imprisonment of eight years.


In January 2008 David Cameron, Leader of the Conservative Party, announced that he would, if elected, seek to return stop and search powers to the police. Under Conservative proposals, police sergeants would be able to authorise the use of stop and search of pedestrians and vehicles in a specific area for up to six hours—or 48 hours if permission is granted by a senior officer. 

Not sure if this actually came back into law. Very emotive subject as in the 80's, the so-called "sus law" was abused by police to target black and ethnic minority groups, exactly the type of civil rights abuse you referred to. Funnily enough, I nearly got arrested under the sus law when I attended a protest march against the sus law in Trafalgar Square in 1983! Police were just picking people out of the crowd, mainly black guys, and when we tried to intervene, all these cops with batons and shields came at us and threatened to arrest us on suspicion of starting a riot or some such nonsense.

Abused as it was, I feel the ability of police to arrest someone on suspicion of a crime is essential. Imagine the police are informed that someone is going to shoot one of your family, and that he has an unlicenced gun in his car outside their house. You wouldn't want the police to search the car? Again, it may be annoying, but if you've done no wrong, whats the problem? Every December in UK , 10's of thousands of motorists are stopped for no reason to be breathalysed. I've probably been stopped around 15 times. Personally, I am grateful they do this.


So, again. I will accept that I may be mistaken, and that T&T police, inland revenue, customs may not have the above laws or enough suspicion to act. I will also accept that my interpretation of the laws are misguided. But I understand the law to be a living entity that evolves due to new decisions which become precedents and can be used to support legal arguments.

All I ever suggested, right at the beginning of this debate is that there is enough smoke to at least talk to Warner and make a judgement whether a law has been broken.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 10:30:36 AM by Football supporter »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #525 on: June 12, 2011, 10:37:41 AM »
As we have often commented in this discussion, I know little about the details of law. I have been trained in money laundering a financial adviser specifically when it involves tax evasion. I appreciate I may be misguided as UK law may well be different than T&T & US laws. But this is my understanding:

Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate. The money involved can be generated by any number of criminal acts, including drug dealing, corruption, accounting and other types of fraud, and tax evasion. (1)


Police in the UK, at least, use this legislation to investigate various types of financial crimes, including tax evasion. The original legislation referred purely to drug trafficking and the oroceeds of crime. (In fact it is believed the term "money laundering" was introduced after the sentencing of Al Capone, who used dry cleaning stores as a way of, literally, laundering his money). Although Police may not suspect the suspect of drugs or other organised crime, they can use the legislation if they suspect a financial crime has taken place.(1)

Salt Lake City Olympic bribe scandal.

The international sports community was rocked by a bribery scandal involving the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City, Utah. Two officials of the Utah committee that secured the games were indicted in 2000 on charges of wire and Mail Fraud, conspiracy, and interstate travel in aid of Racketeering. They were charged with paying an official of the U.S. Olympic Committee (USOC) to help influence the selection of Salt Lake City by the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The USOC official who received the bribes later pleaded guilty to several criminal charges including the accepting of a bribe.

Federal prosecutors contended that the two officials had paid $1 million to influence votes of several IOC members. In addition, they had allegedly diverted some $130,000 of the bid committee's income, and had altered books and created false contracts to conceal their actions. The two officials denied that they had done anything wrong, contending that the payments were intended as grants and scholarships for poor athletes. Following the indictments, ten members of the IOC either resigned or were expelled from the organization, and many reforms were undertaken to prevent bribery. The USOC also authorized an independent review of its practices.

However, the two Utah officials successfully challenged the bribery charges. In July 2001, a federal judge dismissed the bribery charges, finding that a Utah bribery statute could not be applied to the defendants' actions. In December 2001, the judge dismissed the remaining criminal counts. (2)


Non declaration of funds in T&T

The penalty for the filing of a false declaration under the Customs Act is a fine of three times the value of the item not so declared or a term of imprisonment of eight years. (3)

So, again. I will accept that I may be mistaken, and that T&T police, inland revenue, customs may not have the above laws or enough suspicion to act. I will also accept that my interpretation of the laws are misguided. But I understand the law to be a living entity that evolves due to new decisions which become precedents and can be used to support legal arguments. (4)

All I ever suggested, right at the beginning of this debate is that there is enough smoke to at least talk to Warner and make a judgement whether a law has been broken.


(1)  Please tell me in your mind, what financial crimes Jack Warner may have committed? 

(2) I touched on the Salt Lake City fiasco earlier, unless TnT has a similar "bribery in business affairs" statute, bribery typicall applies to public officials, either them accepting bribes or people offering them bribes.  Any gift or enticement can be interpreted as a bribe, but such gifts and enticement are a regular part of doing business... unless you happen to be doing the public's work.

(3)  Do you have a source for this?  Not trying to bust your balls, but I take things reported in the TnT media with a grain of salt.  I tried looking at the Foreign Exchange Act and the Customs Act but neither addressed the issue of limits on bringing cash into the country nor penalties for violation of the same.

(4)  There are two types of laws... "common law" and "statutory law".  Common law or "case law" as it's sometimes called is most likely what you're thinking of as the "living entity" as that changes with each judicial opinion.  One can in fact get up in court and advocate for changes to prior case law and providing that one is successful, new precedents are set everyday.  Statutory law is a different matter.  These are laws and regulations created by legislation and the only way for an Legislative Act to be amended, is by subsequent legislation, not by judges.  The only role the Judiciary would serve in such a case would be to either address the constitutionality of the law or to apply the law in judicial proceedings.  They can't change it in a courtroom.  Laws governing bribery, embezzlement, fraud, money laundering... violations of customs and excise etc. are all statutory laws, created by Acts of Parliament.  The court can only rule on whether a person is guilty or not of violating the law.


At this point the police can "talk" to Jack all they want... but he (rightfully) is not obligated to answer any of their questions.  For this reason they know they will only be wasting their time, which is why Gibbs is refusing to rush to "investigate" him.  It will yield nothing unless he cooperates, and for now they cannot compel his cooperation.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 10:41:06 AM by Bakes »

Offline Trini _2026

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #526 on: June 12, 2011, 11:09:55 AM »
Warner must go - Seaga

Published: Sunday | June 12, 2011

André Lowe, Senior Staff Reporter

President of the Professional Football Association of Jamaica, Edward Seaga, came out swinging in an exclusive interview with The Sunday Gleaner, calling for the head of suspended Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football (CONCACAF) and Caribbean Football Union (CFU) president Austin 'Jack' Warner.

Seaga, labelled Warner, who is presently caught in the middle of bribery allegations as a tyrant, and waved a finger at his credibility.

It is alleged that CFU members were given gifts of US$40,000 to influence support for Mohamed bin Hammam, who is also suspended and who at the time was challenging recently re-elected FIFA president Sepp Blatter for the top job at football's global headquarters.

get rid of him

"We cannot continue this thing with Jack Warner, we simply cannot," Seaga asserted. "The man has already committed himself and will most likely do more harm if he is left out there alone, it's time for us to get rid of him."

"We need new leadership in the region, we definitely need new leadership if we are to move forward," added Seaga, a former prime minister of Jamaica, who currently serves as the president of the Premier League Clubs Association.

FIFA has launched an investigation into the allegations and has appointed ex-FBI director Louis Freeh to lead the process.

However, Seaga is already convinced that Warner, who is also a Trinidadian government minister, is toxic to the region's football development and also raised questions about his supporters.

"He has some chief supporters who are not very much different from him and are doing the same things ... ," said the hard-hitting Seaga.

"While there is a path to lead us out of this mess, I am not certain that the guts are there to take this path. People right across the region have their issues but are afraid to come public because of fear for this man," he added, while pointing to an incident where St Kitts and Nevis' Peter Jenkins was barred from both CONCACAF and CFU in 2009, after he opposed well-known Warner ally, Captain Horace Burrell, president of the Jamaica Football Federation as the regional representative of the CONCACAF executive committee.

bad for football

"What kind of democracy is this? The whole money handling, the way in which he (Warner) operates is just bad for the region and bad for football. Here we are at the bottom trying to build football into something that is socially meaningful and doing well with that, and at the top, they are creating something that is managed under tyranny," Seaga stated.

In spite of his determination to see the back of Warner from the CFU top spot, Seaga admitted that he does not know who would be a more suitable option for the role.

"Quite frankly, I do not know the Caribbean football representatives as well as I know the local ones and so, I cannot suggest alternatives, but there are others who can do that," Seaga said.
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #527 on: June 12, 2011, 01:05:23 PM »
As we have often commented in this discussion, I know little about the details of law. I have been trained in money laundering a financial adviser specifically when it involves tax evasion. I appreciate I may be misguided as UK law may well be different than T&T & US laws. But this is my understanding:

Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate. The money involved can be generated by any number of criminal acts, including drug dealing, corruption, accounting and other types of fraud, and tax evasion. (1)


Police in the UK, at least, use this legislation to investigate various types of financial crimes, including tax evasion. The original legislation referred purely to drug trafficking and the oroceeds of crime. (In fact it is believed the term "money laundering" was introduced after the sentencing of Al Capone, who used dry cleaning stores as a way of, literally, laundering his money). Although Police may not suspect the suspect of drugs or other organised crime, they can use the legislation if they suspect a financial crime has taken place.(1)

Salt Lake City Olympic bribe scandal.

The international sports community was rocked by a bribery scandal involving the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City, Utah. Two officials of the Utah committee that secured the games were indicted in 2000 on charges of wire and Mail Fraud, conspiracy, and interstate travel in aid of Racketeering. They were charged with paying an official of the U.S. Olympic Committee (USOC) to help influence the selection of Salt Lake City by the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The USOC official who received the bribes later pleaded guilty to several criminal charges including the accepting of a bribe.

Federal prosecutors contended that the two officials had paid $1 million to influence votes of several IOC members. In addition, they had allegedly diverted some $130,000 of the bid committee's income, and had altered books and created false contracts to conceal their actions. The two officials denied that they had done anything wrong, contending that the payments were intended as grants and scholarships for poor athletes. Following the indictments, ten members of the IOC either resigned or were expelled from the organization, and many reforms were undertaken to prevent bribery. The USOC also authorized an independent review of its practices.

However, the two Utah officials successfully challenged the bribery charges. In July 2001, a federal judge dismissed the bribery charges, finding that a Utah bribery statute could not be applied to the defendants' actions. In December 2001, the judge dismissed the remaining criminal counts. (2)


Non declaration of funds in T&T

The penalty for the filing of a false declaration under the Customs Act is a fine of three times the value of the item not so declared or a term of imprisonment of eight years. (3)

So, again. I will accept that I may be mistaken, and that T&T police, inland revenue, customs may not have the above laws or enough suspicion to act. I will also accept that my interpretation of the laws are misguided. But I understand the law to be a living entity that evolves due to new decisions which become precedents and can be used to support legal arguments. (4)

All I ever suggested, right at the beginning of this debate is that there is enough smoke to at least talk to Warner and make a judgement whether a law has been broken.


(1)  Please tell me in your mind, what financial crimes Jack Warner may have committed? 

(2) I touched on the Salt Lake City fiasco earlier, unless TnT has a similar "bribery in business affairs" statute, bribery typicall applies to public officials, either them accepting bribes or people offering them bribes.  Any gift or enticement can be interpreted as a bribe, but such gifts and enticement are a regular part of doing business... unless you happen to be doing the public's work.

(3)  Do you have a source for this?  Not trying to bust your balls, but I take things reported in the TnT media with a grain of salt.  I tried looking at the Foreign Exchange Act and the Customs Act but neither addressed the issue of limits on bringing cash into the country nor penalties for violation of the same.

(4)  There are two types of laws... "common law" and "statutory law".  Common law or "case law" as it's sometimes called is most likely what you're thinking of as the "living entity" as that changes with each judicial opinion.  One can in fact get up in court and advocate for changes to prior case law and providing that one is successful, new precedents are set everyday.  Statutory law is a different matter.  These are laws and regulations created by legislation and the only way for an Legislative Act to be amended, is by subsequent legislation, not by judges.  The only role the Judiciary would serve in such a case would be to either address the constitutionality of the law or to apply the law in judicial proceedings.  They can't change it in a courtroom.  Laws governing bribery, embezzlement, fraud, money laundering... violations of customs and excise etc. are all statutory laws, created by Acts of Parliament.  The court can only rule on whether a person is guilty or not of violating the law.


At this point the police can "talk" to Jack all they want... but he (rightfully) is not obligated to answer any of their questions.  For this reason they know they will only be wasting their time, which is why Gibbs is refusing to rush to "investigate" him.  It will yield nothing unless he cooperates, and for now they cannot compel his cooperation.

So Bakes you are saying that anyone can wire me a million dollars and then I withdraw it and the bank or whatever financial institution eh see no problem with this? The police find out and they eh ask me nutten, and even if they do, I tell them is not dey business?

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Offline weary1969

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #528 on: June 12, 2011, 02:46:00 PM »
Seaga tryin 2 b relevant but I go take d call.
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #529 on: June 12, 2011, 04:53:03 PM »
FIFA BRIBERY SCANDAL
Warner not talking as CFU members co-operate with probe
Trinidad & Tobago Guardian Online
Published: Sun, 2011-06-12
   

http://guardian.co.tt/sport/2011/06/12/warner-not-talking-cfu-members-co-operate-probe


Jack Warner BRIDGETOWN—The Caribbean Football Union says it will co-operate with Fifa’s investigation into bribery allegations, as it seeks to bring an end to the conflict that has sent shockwaves through the global fraternity. Acting CFU president Captain Horace Burrell gave the assurance after a decision was made to conduct the interviews in the Bahamas instead of Miami. Several CFU members were opposed to Miami, USA, as a venue for the interviews, claiming that it gave the investigation an inherent American bias. “In light of the attempts to address the challenges facing the Caribbean Football Union as well bring closure to the Ethics Committee proceedings, members of the Caribbean Football Union will fully co-operate with any investigation being conducted on behalf of the Fifa Ethics Committee” Burrell said.

The interviews are part of a Fifa ethics committee investigation probing allegations that bribes were given to CFU members at a meeting in Port-of-Spain, T&T last month with Fifa presidential candidate Mohamed Bin Hammam. Suspended Fifa vice president Jack Warner has refused to answer questions surrounding investigations into possible misconduct. Speaking yesterday following an environmental walk put on by the Ministry of Works and Transport Ministry, the usually engaging minister, when asked by the media if he was going to the Bahamas to face  the investigator appointed by Fifa,  responded: “I not answering them questions. What you wasting my time for? I not talking to all you about that. Respect my wishes, nah.”
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #530 on: June 12, 2011, 07:46:35 PM »
Hmm, so now Burrell is acting CFU president? Now I understand how it works...you get to be President for a week, and then you're suspended. I wonder what happens in 21 weeks time when they run out of CFU countries?

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #531 on: June 12, 2011, 08:38:12 PM »

Elan, try and maintain focus... nobody's talking about opening a bank account here.  Jack don't have to show anything just because he "allegedly" was in possession of large sums of cash.

You said

If police hold a man walking down the street and find $10,000 cash on him do you think they can force him to tell them the source of the money or how it got into TnT?  If you do then you have another thing coming to you. Just

I said you have to explain to the police where you get that money. I just added the bank account part to try to explashiate....daiz all. But again, you must tell the police where you get that money or you eh going anywhere.

Even in Trinidad... police could ask you whatever they want but no court will force you to disclose where you get the money simply based on them finding you with the money.  If you have drugs on you or they have other evidence of wrongdoing is another matter.  But simply them stopping you... even if they arrest you for something else... unless they can tie the cash to criminal activity you don't have to tell them anything.  This is what I mean by people not knowing their rights.

 :thumbsup:
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #532 on: June 12, 2011, 10:09:53 PM »
So Bakes you are saying that anyone can wire me a million dollars and then I withdraw it and the bank or whatever financial institution eh see no problem with this? The police find out and they eh ask me nutten, and even if they do, I tell them is not dey business?

It could be $10M dollars... if they wiring it into your bank account then what the bank have to ask you about your money?  What police questioning you for... is it against the law to deposit a million dollars into yuh own bank account and then withdraw it?  Suppose was only ah blue note yuh withdraw, could the police hold you and ask yuh where yuh get it from??  Allyuh men must think logically and not get caught up in dem Law and Order Hollywood foolishness.  If yuh ent commit no crime then you have nutten to answer for to the police or anybody else.  The amount of money is immaterial.


EDIT:

Found what might be some applicable laws:

http://rgd.legalaffairs.gov.tt/Laws2/Alphabetical_List/lawspdfs/79.50.pdf

Can't copy and paste the text but it can be found on Pg. 16, subsection (3).  Penalties are:

a) If on Summary Conviction (misdemeanor) - maximum fine of $5,000 and up to 2 yrs imprisonment.
b) If on Conviction on Indictment (felony)- maximum fine of $10,000 and up to 5 yrs imprisonment

However where the offence concerns currency... and is more than just a failure to provide information when required to do so, the fine could be up to three times the value of the currency in question.

So the penalty to Jack could be severe... but I saw nothing in the act that directly relates to the issue here in contention.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 12:01:39 AM by Bakes »

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #533 on: June 13, 2011, 06:47:36 AM »
So Bakes you are saying that anyone can wire me a million dollars and then I withdraw it and the bank or whatever financial institution eh see no problem with this? The police find out and they eh ask me nutten, and even if they do, I tell them is not dey business?

It could be $10M dollars... if they wiring it into your bank account then what the bank have to ask you about your money?  What police questioning you for... is it against the law to deposit a million dollars into yuh own bank account and then withdraw it?  Suppose was only ah blue note yuh withdraw, could the police hold you and ask yuh where yuh get it from??  Allyuh men must think logically and not get caught up in dem Law and Order Hollywood foolishness.  If yuh ent commit no crime then you have nutten to answer for to the police or anybody else.  The amount of money is immaterial.


EDIT:

Found what might be some applicable laws:

http://rgd.legalaffairs.gov.tt/Laws2/Alphabetical_List/lawspdfs/79.50.pdf

Can't copy and paste the text but it can be found on Pg. 16, subsection (3).  Penalties are:

a) If on Summary Conviction (misdemeanor) - maximum fine of $5,000 and up to 2 yrs imprisonment.
b) If on Conviction on Indictment (felony)- maximum fine of $10,000 and up to 5 yrs imprisonment

However where the offence concerns currency... and is more than just a failure to provide information when required to do so, the fine could be up to three times the value of the currency in question.

So the penalty to Jack could be severe... but I saw nothing in the act that directly relates to the issue here in contention.

I cant speak for every country but in Toronto where my home is based. I've been told by the Royal Bank there that any deposit of more than $10 000.00 must be explained.

I've done this once or twice with  a very basic explanation. But no explanation would lead to a query. Yes that includes wire transfers.
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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #534 on: June 13, 2011, 06:47:50 AM »
"if they wiring it into your bank account then what the bank have to ask you about your money?"

Actually, every bank from nations signed up to the International anti-money laundering agreements and cross border financial transaction legislation (which is probably around 160 countries) have to, by law, investigate any irregular transactions. Under the "know your customer" guidelines, an unusual large transaction should be questioned. Now if you usually have a bank balance of $500 and you suddenly receive $10,000, they may not question it, but if you receive $100,000 or $10,000 per week, they have a duty to check this out.

Usually, they would check the source of the funds and if it was legitimate, then nothing would be said. If they are unsure, their first option is to invite you to the bank on the premise that your money is in an under performing account and they would offer you higher interest bearing accounts as well as financial planning advice. At this meeting they would ask the source of funds (which, of course, you don't have to declare).

If this meeting does not satisfy the bank or you do not attend, the bank will then report the unusual activity to the police financial crimes department and monitor your accounts.

There are very severe financial penalties for banks that do not initiate anti money laundering procedures and usually the bank official responsible would be fired if he doesn't follow the simple procedures in place.

NB: In the UK, any financial adviser and estate agent also has to adhere to these guidelines or face prosecution. I have completed many money laundering checks for sums from £10,000 to £500,000 and have never had any client not co operate. If anyone did fail to co operate I would have had to refuse to complete the business as I would be breaking laws. I only ever reported one client to the financial services investigators because I was suspicious of the source of funds.

As I have said before, if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #535 on: June 13, 2011, 09:14:29 AM »
"if they wiring it into your bank account then what the bank have to ask you about your money?"

Actually, every bank from nations signed up to the International anti-money laundering agreements and cross border financial transaction legislation (which is probably around 160 countries) have to, by law, investigate any irregular transactions. Under the "know your customer" guidelines, an unusual large transaction should be questioned. Now if you usually have a bank balance of $500 and you suddenly receive $10,000, they may not question it, but if you receive $100,000 or $10,000 per week, they have a duty to check this out.

Usually, they would check the source of the funds and if it was legitimate, then nothing would be said. If they are unsure, their first option is to invite you to the bank on the premise that your money is in an under performing account and they would offer you higher interest bearing accounts as well as financial planning advice. At this meeting they would ask the source of funds (which, of course, you don't have to declare).

If this meeting does not satisfy the bank or you do not attend, the bank will then report the unusual activity to the police financial crimes department and monitor your accounts.

There are very severe financial penalties for banks that do not initiate anti money laundering procedures and usually the bank official responsible would be fired if he doesn't follow the simple procedures in place.

NB: In the UK, any financial adviser and estate agent also has to adhere to these guidelines or face prosecution. I have completed many money laundering checks for sums from £10,000 to £500,000 and have never had any client not co operate. If anyone did fail to co operate I would have had to refuse to complete the business as I would be breaking laws. I only ever reported one client to the financial services investigators because I was suspicious of the source of funds.

As I have said before, if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

Do you have any idea what is regular or irregular for Jack Warner?  If he has never recieved such large sums before then maybe based on that treaty there would be actual "cause" to investigate.  I suspect there isn't as he surely has had bigger deposits into accounts he bears responsibility for.  So no need for bank inquiry.

Nothing to hide does not mean you are supposed to be at the mercy of any and all who elect to propogate stories for which they have no solid proof nor are you subject to any unreasonable standard to explain your dealings.  You and others are dissecting this from moral and emotional grounds yet want the law to get involved, not sure how or why.

As for your previous example of a man with a bullet wound, even with all the emotions you could muster up I doubt you honestly believe that comparison is even worthy of a response.  I will humor you anyway though.  So "Gibbs buying his doubles in st James and sees a man lying dead with a bullet hole in his chest, is he supposed to ignore it until someone shouts "murdah?"  No he is not as the suspicion that a crime may have occured has to be there.  He in the capacity of law inforcement has a duty to investigate what could in fact be a murder scene.  So far with JW you cannot point to anything other than what you "emotionally suspect could have possibly happened."  Now read over what I just typed doesn't that look overly rediculous to the naked eye?

Jack Warner could just as easily have a safe with a million dollars in it from which he sourced the cash.  If there is a fire in JW's home and while the fire is being put out a safe is recovered and damaged enough that it can be opened but the contents are safe, would Jack have to face investigation over it's contents without any possible cause other than the sum seems abnormal for someone to have in cash? 

So now look how Giskus has provided Jack with an out: Giskus said Warner invited him to the May 10-11 expenses-paid conference promising gift packages for union members. The meeting was announced when bin Hammam did not attend the North and Central American and Caribbean (CONCACAF) congress in Miami one week earlier.

Didn't another official say that they were told the funds were for a pet project of their choice football related?  Or was it Giskus?  Given that Jack usually dealt in cash according to Giskus, the allegation of bribe is becoming less potent.  Unless an official can say I was told that this is in exchange for your vote, this will all amount to nothing.  And more and more it is becoming an apparent witch hunt/ political maneuver within CONCACAF by Blazer.  Dirty or not they making themselves look worse than Jack with this approach.

truetrini

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #536 on: June 13, 2011, 10:20:06 AM »
Hmm, so now Burrell is acting CFU president? Now I understand how it works...you get to be President for a week, and then you're suspended. I wonder what happens in 21 weeks time when they run out of CFU countries?

CFU is way different to CONCACAF!

Offline Jayerson

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #537 on: June 13, 2011, 11:43:42 AM »
"if they wiring it into your bank account then what the bank have to ask you about your money?"

Actually, every bank from nations signed up to the International anti-money laundering agreements and cross border financial transaction legislation (which is probably around 160 countries) have to, by law, investigate any irregular transactions. Under the "know your customer" guidelines, an unusual large transaction should be questioned. Now if you usually have a bank balance of $500 and you suddenly receive $10,000, they may not question it, but if you receive $100,000 or $10,000 per week, they have a duty to check this out.

Usually, they would check the source of the funds and if it was legitimate, then nothing would be said. If they are unsure, their first option is to invite you to the bank on the premise that your money is in an under performing account and they would offer you higher interest bearing accounts as well as financial planning advice. At this meeting they would ask the source of funds (which, of course, you don't have to declare).

If this meeting does not satisfy the bank or you do not attend, the bank will then report the unusual activity to the police financial crimes department and monitor your accounts.

There are very severe financial penalties for banks that do not initiate anti money laundering procedures and usually the bank official responsible would be fired if he doesn't follow the simple procedures in place.

NB: In the UK, any financial adviser and estate agent also has to adhere to these guidelines or face prosecution. I have completed many money laundering checks for sums from £10,000 to £500,000 and have never had any client not co operate. If anyone did fail to co operate I would have had to refuse to complete the business as I would be breaking laws. I only ever reported one client to the financial services investigators because I was suspicious of the source of funds.

As I have said before, if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?

Do you have any idea what is regular or irregular for Jack Warner?  If he has never recieved such large sums before then maybe based on that treaty there would be actual "cause" to investigate.  I suspect there isn't as he surely has had bigger deposits into accounts he bears responsibility for.  So no need for bank inquiry.

Nothing to hide does not mean you are supposed to be at the mercy of any and all who elect to propogate stories for which they have no solid proof nor are you subject to any unreasonable standard to explain your dealings.  You and others are dissecting this from moral and emotional grounds yet want the law to get involved, not sure how or why.

As for your previous example of a man with a bullet wound, even with all the emotions you could muster up I doubt you honestly believe that comparison is even worthy of a response.  I will humor you anyway though.  So "Gibbs buying his doubles in st James and sees a man lying dead with a bullet hole in his chest, is he supposed to ignore it until someone shouts "murdah?"  No he is not as the suspicion that a crime may have occured has to be there.  He in the capacity of law inforcement has a duty to investigate what could in fact be a murder scene.  So far with JW you cannot point to anything other than what you "emotionally suspect could have possibly happened."  Now read over what I just typed doesn't that look overly rediculous to the naked eye?

Jack Warner could just as easily have a safe with a million dollars in it from which he sourced the cash.  If there is a fire in JW's home and while the fire is being put out a safe is recovered and damaged enough that it can be opened but the contents are safe, would Jack have to face investigation over it's contents without any possible cause other than the sum seems abnormal for someone to have in cash? 

So now look how Giskus has provided Jack with an out: Giskus said Warner invited him to the May 10-11 expenses-paid conference promising gift packages for union members. The meeting was announced when bin Hammam did not attend the North and Central American and Caribbean (CONCACAF) congress in Miami one week earlier.

Didn't another official say that they were told the funds were for a pet project of their choice football related?  Or was it Giskus?  Given that Jack usually dealt in cash according to Giskus, the allegation of bribe is becoming less potent.  Unless an official can say I was told that this is in exchange for your vote, this will all amount to nothing.  And more and more it is becoming an apparent witch hunt/ political maneuver within CONCACAF by Blazer.  Dirty or not they making themselves look worse than Jack with this approach.

The thing is, Bin Hammam had already left when this bribe money was passed. In addition to which, I vaguely remember Jack Warner saying in an interview on the last day of the CFU meeting that member would be accused of getting money, getting cars, getting barrells of oil etc. Do I remember this correctly?

Offline mukumsplau

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #538 on: June 13, 2011, 11:44:53 AM »
i wouldve sent that too...a criminal mastermind thinks ahead

Offline Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$

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Re: Mohamed Bin Hammam and Jack Warner charged by FIFA over alleged bribes
« Reply #539 on: June 13, 2011, 11:58:40 AM »
The thing is, Bin Hammam had already left when this bribe money was passed. In addition to which, I vaguely remember Jack Warner saying in an interview on the last day of the CFU meeting that member would be accused of getting money, getting cars, getting barrells of oil etc. Do I remember this correctly?

Well BH already looks to be in the clear with his statements as to what he spent and why.  Which makes the whole thing even more strange because that would mean (going solely by what has been made public) that JW put the rest of the "bribe" from either his or CFU's funds.  If anything the way the info has come out so far it seems as if the $40K that all are alleged to have recieved was a reward for attending as opposed to being for votes.  With all the headlines and posturing I have yet to read anywhere that anyone was explicitly told collect something outside fuh supporting the future president of FIFA whom you'll be voting for.  Ah vaguely remember reading something so in troot though Jay

 

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