Would T&T be a better place with a permanent curfew?

[Football supporter]

There are certain facts than cannot be disputed during this State of Emergency. There is less crime being committed. There are less deaths on the roads. People are spending more time at home together. People are probably drinking less alcohol. Its possible that productivity will incease due to condensed working hours.

In the face of these facts and a history of failed crime plans from all governments, it is realistic to assume that the government may consider a permanent curfew on a more relaxed basis.

Personal freedoms aside, would this be a bad thing for society?

Lets say the new curfew runs from Midnight until 5 am. What would be the effects? People would learn to lime earlier. Instead of meeting at 11pm, they would meet at 7pm. Bars would stop serving at 10.30 am and be emptied by 11pm. If the police are actively breathalysing drivers between 11pm and midnight, there would be less drink driving which is a proven cause of the reduction of deaths on the road. Businesses would be affected less, as people would come out earlier. Night clubs would open from 8pm until 11pm.

Crime should also stay lower with the country locked down from midnight to 5am.

But would this work without the assistance of an SOE? Maybe they would keep that in place too?

The reduction in alcohol intake must be beneficial to society, but would the curtailing of T&T's liming society be worth the price? Certainly, it appears that the breathalysers are having no effect. People like to drink and drive.

The question is, will living in a near police state be preferable to the previous scenario when nobody was safe from the bandits? The loss of certain civil rights would be heavily criticised, but do we really enjoy those freedoms in the current society. I could insist its my right to lime by a bar until 3am. But do I feel safe travelling home after? And should I be driving after drinking? Many of the fatal accidents occurring at night on the roads are not just the result of alcohol, but also tiredness. It is possible that the same driver, with the same alcohol intake would be less likely to have an accident at 9pm than 3am.   

What rights are we prepared to give up, if any, to live in a country with less crime?

[Tallman]

No. De bandits would learn to adapt. Such a measure is no substitute for effective policing and enforcement of the law. It would be ignoring the fundamental flaws which exist in the law and disorder system, which to a certain degree is partly responsible for the current state of affairs.

[Football supporter]

No. De bandits would learn to adapt. Such a measure is no substitute for effective policing and enforcement of the law. It would be ignoring the fundamental flaws which exist in the law and disorder system, which to a certain degree is partly responsible for the current state of affairs.

I agree that the bandits would adapt, but my point was, there are no ready soloutions, certainly not that would take place instantly. The govt are faced with a situation where, in a football terminology, they are playing with 3 strikers and winning 2-0. They have no defensive plan, and when the SOE ends they will concede goals. Any worthwhile measures will be long term, such as more, better trained police, better intelligence gathering systems, tighter border control (such as OPV's which they can never consider now) and, most importantly, social programmes to steer youngsters away from crime.

My argument was that the govt cannot return to the halfway line after scoring and instantly concede. Real long term measures may not bear fruit until the next govt (exactly what Hines has been proclaiming). They cannot afford to lose their lead. 

This is actually where everyone needs to stop playing politics and create all party commissions to implement measures for the good of the nation, rather than gain political capital, that will not be dismantled by a change of govt. 

[Tallman]

My argument was that the govt cannot return to the halfway line after scoring and instantly concede. Real long term measures may not bear fruit until the next govt (exactly what Hines has been proclaiming). They cannot afford to lose their lead.

The question is, do they really have a lead? What will be the conviction rate of those arrested?

[Football supporter]

My argument was that the govt cannot return to the halfway line after scoring and instantly concede. Real long term measures may not bear fruit until the next govt (exactly what Hines has been proclaiming). They cannot afford to lose their lead.

The question is, do they really have a lead? What will be the conviction rate of those arrested?

This is where the law will be used for political gain. Many will just be charged of associating with gangs etc. This was Bakes concern about my view that the end justifies the means. Locking up the small fry won't solve the problem, although I do believe this "short, sharp, shock" will maybe change a few minds.

[Socafan]

There is no quick fix. None. A permanent curfew will become meaningless very shortly in Trinidad. Everybody will have a pass. Fete might be curtailed now but after a few weeks or months it will be the same old khaki pants. Its still Trinidad afterall. There will not be enough police manpower to effectively manage a permanent curfew, not to mention the unsustainable added cost and Police already grumbling about pay. Plus regular normal businessmen will eventually start to complain. And what happens come Carnival time? Is now self people go revolt. So personally, the question is a non-starter.

But lets say Kambo does go for the police state solution. Even if the citizenry tolerate that for a time, my firm belief is that although Trinidad is a limer country, and seemingly apathetic with most things, there is a radical element in this weird Caribbean Isle that manifests itself from time to time..Black power movement, Henry Sylvester Williams, Stokely Carmichael, Raffique Shah, Jamaat al Muslimeen, even JFK bombing terrorist, plus long time people like Butler (though he was Grenadian), CLR James, Weekes,  even Karl Hudson Phillips throw out revolutionary talk...these people weren't just talkers, they were doers. That element is still there. The sabres would soon start rattling. TNT better off yuh say? I would advise Kamla to pay the police. The brass is not happy it seems to me.

To answer your question more directly, there will still be an underclass that is not being attended to (same all over the world), and them still have to survive, so the drugs will start to flow albeit at a different time and life will become more perilous with killings, robberies and shootings by more daring and desperate crooks in the daytime. Not a better position.

The only solution is to deal with poverty and its attendant ills (easier said than done eh? but we've never even tried) and to improve policing. Curfew can't cut it.

[Bakes]

All you will be doing is replacing one form of repression with another... I'm not sure how much of an improvement that would be.

[kicker]

....and there would be less hornin'!! lol...

Kidding - no T&T Would not be a better place.

This is similar to the censorship argument.  People have to be able to be good citizens without these types of restrictions or else yuh just creating trained and repressed animals. 

Put a patch on a bad tire and it just will burst somewhere else. 

[Bakes]

The two major evils driving crime in TnT (guns and narcotics) emanate from foreign sources... weed by itself isn't at the root of criminal enterprise.  Therefore it makes sense to address better security of the nation's borders, but to date that has been severely lacking, and whatever steps were taken under the previous administration, have been scrapped and are yet to be replaced.  Until then, any effort used to address crime would be both superficial and ineffective, one may artificially reduce numbers in the short term but the root cause will remain.  Criminals are enterprising and the SoE alone will not affect neither supply nor demand.  Where there is a market then criminals will find a way to exploit that market for their gain.

[kicker]

The two major evils driving crime in TnT (guns and narcotics) emanate from foreign sources... weed by itself isn't at the root of criminal enterprise.  Therefore it makes sense to address better security of the nation's borders, but to date that has been severely lacking, and whatever steps were taken under the previous administration, have been scrapped and are yet to be replaced.  Until then, any effort used to address crime would be both superficial and ineffective, one may artificially reduce numbers in the short term but the root cause will remain.  Criminals are enterprising and the SoE alone will not affect neither supply nor demand.  Where there is a market then criminals will find a way to exploit that market for their gain.

Agreed.

I for longer term measures too that go deep into the social/moral fabric of T&T, but that is a very long conversation. 

[Toppa]

What kind of schupid question is dis?

[g]

The two major evils driving crime in TnT (guns and narcotics) emanate from foreign sources... weed by itself isn't at the root of criminal enterprise.  Therefore it makes sense to address better security of the nation's borders, but to date that has been severely lacking, and whatever steps were taken under the previous administration, have been scrapped and are yet to be replaced.  Until then, any effort used to address crime would be both superficial and ineffective, one may artificially reduce numbers in the short term but the root cause will remain.  Criminals are enterprising and the SoE alone will not affect neither supply nor demand.  Where there is a market then criminals will find a way to exploit that market for their gain.

Agreed.

I for longer term measures too that go deep into the social/moral fabric of T&T, but that is a very long conversation. 

These types of measures are not politically expedient, and unfortunately will never be a priority for administrations locally

[pardners]

The two major evils driving crime in TnT (guns and narcotics) emanate from foreign sources... weed by itself isn't at the root of criminal enterprise.  Therefore it makes sense to address better security of the nation's borders, but to date that has been severely lacking, and whatever steps were taken under the previous administration, have been scrapped and are yet to be replaced.  Until then, any effort used to address crime would be both superficial and ineffective, one may artificially reduce numbers in the short term but the root cause will remain.  Criminals are enterprising and the SoE alone will not affect neither supply nor demand.  Where there is a market then criminals will find a way to exploit that market for their gain.

Agreed.

I for longer term measures too that go deep into the social/moral fabric of T&T, but that is a very long conversation. 

These types of measures are not politically expedient, and unfortunately will never be a priority for administrations locally

I ent holding no brief for no party, but The PNM's 20/20 Vision Plan spoke to these measures and initiatives.  Is a pity this administration can't take the splinters out of their eyes and examine some of the good in the document before they eradicated the a lot of social and educational programs that were designed to keep the youths out of the criminal industry.

But yuh very right....because these were all middle to long term plans...any party would have had to be successful at the polls at least twice before seeing fruition from these plans...so they would concentrate on the quick wins that could guarantee votes.  Is always about votes eh...

[capodetutticapi]

The two major evils driving crime in TnT (guns and narcotics) emanate from foreign sources... weed by itself isn't at the root of criminal enterprise.  Therefore it makes sense to address better security of the nation's borders, but to date that has been severely lacking, and whatever steps were taken under the previous administration, have been scrapped and are yet to be replaced.  Until then, any effort used to address crime would be both superficial and ineffective, one may artificially reduce numbers in the short term but the root cause will remain.  Criminals are enterprising and the SoE alone will not affect neither supply nor demand.  Where there is a market then criminals will find a way to exploit that market for their gain.

spot on bakes.......ah will also add the judicial wheel need to turn lil faster

[Dutty]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

[Mr Fix-it]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

 

[Football supporter]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

Whoa hoss, I'm just throwing this out there. Kamla and friends don't seem the type to frequent clubs at 4am, so to them, this may not be an important issue. A bit like when you was a kid, your Mum wouldn't buy you adidas sneakers, but some cheap ones from Rattans. Compared with keeping crime down (and securing votes in the process) stopping a few hundred limers from staying out after midnight is nothing.

[Brownsugar]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

Whoa hoss, I'm just throwing this out there. Kamla and friends don't seem the type to frequent clubs at 4am, so to them, this may not be an important issue. A bit like when you was a kid, your Mum wouldn't buy you adidas sneakers, but some cheap ones from Rattans. Compared with keeping crime down (and securing votes in the process) stopping a few hundred limers from staying out after midnight is nothing.

FS, Dutty's post was purely for entertainment.....

[Football supporter]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

Whoa hoss, I'm just throwing this out there. Kamla and friends don't seem the type to frequent clubs at 4am, so to them, this may not be an important issue. A bit like when you was a kid, your Mum wouldn't buy you adidas sneakers, but some cheap ones from Rattans. Compared with keeping crime down (and securing votes in the process) stopping a few hundred limers from staying out after midnight is nothing.

FS, Dutty's post was purely for entertainment.....

[kaliman2006]

I do not believe that a permanent curfew is the answer. The real solution is to get to a point where society values the right to one's life and property, and above all a respect of law enforcement.

In order to develop these rights, I believe that the government and our law enforcement officials should examine what used to work in the past. By the past, I mean my parents' days as teenagers and young adults (my parents had me later in life so this time period would the mid-1950s to mid-1960s). My mother used to tell me that violent crime was virtually nonexistent in T&T, with a few notable exceptions (I believe Mano Benjamin was one such example). In her rebellious days, my mother would be out late with her friends and it never occurred to her to fear being robbed or sexually assaulted from anybody.

The government and law enforcement needs to find out what went wrong between that period and now. Besides a change in the cultural mindset of the average Trinbagonian, was their a change in the effectiveness of the law enforcement authorities as a whole?

I believe that these are questions worth examining.

[Preacher]

I do not believe that a permanent curfew is the answer. The real solution is to get to a point where society values the right to one's life and property, and above all a respect of law enforcement.

In order to develop these rights, I believe that the government and our law enforcement officials should examine what used to work in the past. By the past, I mean my parents' days as teenagers and young adults (my parents had me later in life so this time period would the mid-1950s to mid-1960s). My mother used to tell me that violent crime was virtually nonexistent in T&T, with a few notable exceptions (I believe Mano Benjamin was one such example). In her rebellious days, my mother would be out late with her friends and it never occurred to her to fear being robbed or sexually assaulted from anybody.

The government and law enforcement needs to find out what went wrong between that period and now. Besides a change in the cultural mindset of the average Trinbagonian, was their a change in the effectiveness of the law enforcement authorities as a whole?

I believe that these are questions worth examining.

We need to bring back Soucoyant and La Jabliese...      But very good post brother I share ur sentiments.   
Anybody know any  Soucoyant and La Jabliese for hire?   

[asylumseeker]

I do not believe that a permanent curfew is the answer. The real solution is to get to a point where society values the right to one's life and property, and above all a respect of law enforcement.

In order to develop these rights, I believe that the government and our law enforcement officials should examine what used to work in the past. By the past, I mean my parents' days as teenagers and young adults (my parents had me later in life so this time period would the mid-1950s to mid-1960s). My mother used to tell me that violent crime was virtually nonexistent in T&T, with a few notable exceptions (I believe Mano Benjamin was one such example). In her rebellious days, my mother would be out late with her friends and it never occurred to her to fear being robbed or sexually assaulted from anybody.

The government and law enforcement needs to find out what went wrong between that period and now. Besides a change in the cultural mindset of the average Trinbagonian, was their a change in the effectiveness of the law enforcement authorities as a whole?

I believe that these are questions worth examining.

The Brits left ... my grandmother was a teenager in the 30s. She also reported having the Freedom of Toco.

[Socapro]

@astewart42 Boasting about a reduction in crime during a State of Emergency is like gloating about losing weight during a famine...

[College]

Legalize weed!!

[AirMan]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

I know yuh joking..but Trinis will only riot if the authorities want to stop Carnival. We not going to riot for anything else..

[Deeks]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

I know yuh joking..but Trinis will only riot if the authorities want to stop Carnival. We not going to riot for anything else..

That is not true. We had carnival in May once. Eric say they had cases of cholera or something of the sort. Nobody rioted.  Lord Kitchiner came rich off of his calypso Rainorama. It rained on the parade.

[MEP]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

I know yuh joking..but Trinis will only riot if the authorities want to stop Carnival. We not going to riot for anything else..

That is not true. We had carnival in May once. Eric say they had cases of cholera or something of the sort. Nobody rioted.  Lord Kitchiner came rich off of his calypso Rainorama. It rained on the parade.

actually it was due to Polio

[AirMan]

FS you mad oui, permanent curfew in a country that does value limin more than anyting......it go have riots if man cyah go Insomnia

Trini might quicker agree to mandatory monthly water boardin

I know yuh joking..but Trinis will only riot if the authorities want to stop Carnival. We not going to riot for anything else..

That is not true. We had carnival in May once. Eric say they had cases of cholera or something of the sort. Nobody rioted.  Lord Kitchiner came rich off of his calypso Rainorama. It rained on the parade.

ok ..but I was projecting how Trnis are triggered to retaliate for different tingz.

 We could be blasted by high food prices or slammed with lack of water, or even faced with police brutality and in my opinion there will be no serious retaliation in the form of any riot BUT if dey say sto de Carnival , yuh will see man ready to kill people...( my opinion)

[Socapro]

Boasting about a reduction in crime during a State of Emergency is like gloating about losing weight during a famine...

[elan]

I do not believe that a permanent curfew is the answer. The real solution is to get to a point where society values the right to one's life and property, and above all a respect of law enforcement.

In order to develop these rights, I believe that the government and our law enforcement officials should examine what used to work in the past. By the past, I mean my parents' days as teenagers and young adults (my parents had me later in life so this time period would the mid-1950s to mid-1960s). My mother used to tell me that violent crime was virtually nonexistent in T&T, with a few notable exceptions (I believe Mano Benjamin was one such example). In her rebellious days, my mother would be out late with her friends and it never occurred to her to fear being robbed or sexually assaulted from anybody.

The government and law enforcement needs to find out what went wrong between that period and now. Besides a change in the cultural mindset of the average Trinbagonian, was their a change in the effectiveness of the law enforcement authorities as a whole?

I believe that these are questions worth examining.

The Brits left ... my grandmother was a teenager in the 30s. She also reported having the Freedom of Toco.

Hey in the early 90s I had such freedoms too. Never worrying about anything execpt douen, lagablesse, feather-man, etc.