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Author Topic: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago  (Read 5600 times)

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Offline Socapro

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Click this link to view The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago

http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/a2011-10.pdf

Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.

Wonder if fellas like Bakes and them have time to study this legislation and to give us their opinion on the chances of this legislation being used to abused T&T citizens as folks are saying because there aren’t enough safeguards!

There’s a debate happening right now on C-TV Live at http://www.ctntworld.com/livestream/ covering this topic.
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Socapro

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 06:56:03 PM »
http://caricomnewsnetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5052:trinidad-shubas-panday-critical-of-anti-gang-legislation-being-used-in-state-of-emergency&catid=55:features

TRINIDAD-Shubas Panday critical of anti-gang legislation being used in state of emergency
Tuesday, 30 August 2011 05:48 cmc Hits: 228

PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad, CMC – Former junior national security minister Subas Panday Monday described as a “double whammy” the use of the anti-gang legislation and the state of emergency to arrest people allegedly involved in criminal activities in Trinidad and Tobago.
Panday, the former leader of the Government Business in the Senate, and who also was a member of Cabinet in the Kamla Persad Bissessar five-party coalition administration, said it was necessary now for the anti-gang bill, which allows for persons presumed to be members of criminal gangs to be detained for 120 days without bail, to be amended.
 
He acknowledged that legislation on a whole could not be drafted ‘to cover everything”, but the use by the security forces to detain people under the anti-gang law was “lethal”.
 
“The state of emergency and the anti gang bill is double whammy. It is a lethal portion,” he said on the early morning show on Citadel radio.
 
Police Commissioner Dwayne Gibbs said Sunday that 789 people, including 293 gang leaders and members had been detained since Prime Minister Bissessar announced the nationwide curfew on August 21.
 
Over the weekend, Panday also called on Attorney general Anand Ramlogan to review police statistics on the number of people held for various offences during the state of emergency that also includes an eight hour curfew period.
 
“I wonder whether the statistics will be speaking the truth because I heard that they held people on warrants. You could hold people on warrants for maintenance and alimony. When you put that into the mix, the statistics might give you a wrong report,” he said.
 
Panday, the younger brother of the former prime minister Basdeo Panday, was among legislators who voted in favour of the anti-gang law.
 
He told radio listeners “you can’t draft legislation and see everything …you have experts…look at the bail act see how many times it has been amended.
 
“As a matter of fact that is the reason why you can amend bills in the event that you have to change it,” he said, adding “when you sit on that side (government) of the fence you have all those experts talking to you…and you hardly look at the other side.
 
“Having come back on the other side..(and seeing the anti gang bill) being used within a state of emergency it is a lethal portion and that’s why I thought that it needed to be amended,” he added.
 
The former government legislator said he was also recommending that the government amend the legislation that will now allow for action under the anti-gang legislation to be brought “ only with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) who would have read the information, weight the evidence and he would decide whether to charge you on that.
 
“In the circumstances as it stands now where they (the police and government) are asking people to “blow whistle’ fellars might have a spite against you and blow whistle and they charge you under the anti-gang legislation.
 
“These are things that I humbly apologise that I really did not consider,” he said, adding that he would not comment on the merits or demerits regarding the need to declare a state of emergency in the country.
 
“The government perhaps have more information than I have to  continue it or stop it and I am certain based on the information that they have they will act in a reasonable manner,” said Panday, who was relieved of his ministerial position following a cabinet re-shuffle last month.
 
Meanwhile, an attorney for one person detained under the state of emergency has written to the Police Commissioner requesting information as to why his client had been charged as being a member of a gang under the anti-gang legislation.
 
Attorney Martin George said his client, who had been detained in Tobago last week, had gone to the island to visit his two-year-old son who is scheduled to undergo surgery in Venezuela. The son lives in Tobago with his mother.
 
George wants the Canadian born Gibbs to disclose information about his client’s arrest including the name of the gang and exactly where its headquarters is located.
 
"Please therefore indicate how many persons comprise this gang that our client is supposed to be a member of," the letter stated.
 
"Please indicate when he assumed leadership of the said gang and please indicate if he is the first or only leader of the gang or whether he succeeded another person as leader and the name of any such person he succeeded as leader.
 
"Please provide us with a copy of the Station Diary extract which shows that a police officer of the rank of Superintendent or above, within 48 hours or nearing the end of the detention, reviewed our client's detention and had reasons for believing that our client's continued detention without a charge was necessary for securing or preserving evidence and applied to a Magistrate for a detention order."
 
Gibbs has been given until Tuesday to provide a response.
 
CMC/ir/pr/2011
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 07:24:27 PM by Socapro »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 07:38:19 PM »
Click this link to view The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago

http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/a2011-10.pdf

Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.

Wonder if fellas like Bakes and them have time to study this legislation and to give us their opinion on the chances of this legislation being used to abused T&T citizens as folks are saying because there aren’t enough safeguards!

There’s a debate happening right now on C-TV Live at http://www.ctntworld.com/livestream/ covering this topic.

You can't be serious... I talk about this way back in March or whenever it was proposed.  This is why people need to be vigilant, I can't believe is only now people talking about it being draconian and what not.  Aside from all ah that I said just a couple weeks ago that it is vague and overbroad... not being specific about what constitutes criminal activity and criminalizing more activity than it needs to.

Offline Socapro

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 07:40:33 PM »
Meanwhile, an attorney for one person detained under the state of emergency has written to the Police Commissioner requesting information as to why his client had been charged as being a member of a gang under the anti-gang legislation.
 
Attorney Martin George said his client, who had been detained in Tobago last week, had gone to the island to visit his two-year-old son who is scheduled to undergo surgery in Venezuela. The son lives in Tobago with his mother.
 
George wants the Canadian born Gibbs to disclose information about his client’s arrest including the name of the gang and exactly where its headquarters is located.
 
"Please therefore indicate how many persons comprise this gang that our client is supposed to be a member of," the letter stated.
 
"Please indicate when he assumed leadership of the said gang and please indicate if he is the first or only leader of the gang or whether he succeeded another person as leader and the name of any such person he succeeded as leader.
 
"Please provide us with a copy of the Station Diary extract which shows that a police officer of the rank of Superintendent or above, within 48 hours or nearing the end of the detention, reviewed our client's detention and had reasons for believing that our client's continued detention without a charge was necessary for securing or preserving evidence and applied to a Magistrate for a detention order."
 
Gibbs has been given until Tuesday to provide a response.

This guy Martin George reminds me of Bakes!
He has pushed Gibbs into a corner with these requests!  8)
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Controversial

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 07:41:12 PM »
Click this link to view The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago

http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/a2011-10.pdf

Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.

Wonder if fellas like Bakes and them have time to study this legislation and to give us their opinion on the chances of this legislation being used to abused T&T citizens as folks are saying because there aren’t enough safeguards!

There’s a debate happening right now on C-TV Live at http://www.ctntworld.com/livestream/ covering this topic.

if i have time, i will read through it and see what possible ramifications it may have


Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 08:05:01 PM »
Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.

Socapro, since this SOE started Dr. Rowley indicated that the PNM initially fought the legislation and it was only after a lengthy period of back and forth, negotiations  and I think a setting up of a joint select committee to go through it then it came back to Parliament to be debated and then passed.

So to say the PNM did not do its duty is not entirely true......a lot of work went into it and was one of the bills they worked on with the government to get it passed so that it would have one more weapon in its arsenal to fight crime.   But hear de funny thing.....knowing how Kamla and dem operated in opposition, dey woulda fight the PNM tooth and nail and never support them if the shoe was on de other foot.....

I admittedly didn't pay much attention to it at the time because, like most people having orgasms over this SOE, I'm not in a gang so it didn't affect directly so I really couldn't care less.  Seems like I should have been paying closer attention.....people's civil rights are involved......
"...If yuh clothes tear up
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Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Brownsugar

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"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline weary1969

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »
Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.


D issue wit d act was how u was goin and prove dat mankind in a gang? D issue became impossible when d only Antigang Unit ROPE was shut down after d allegation dat dey kill somebody. D fact dat Rowley and d PNM supported d act shows dat they willing 2 b a responsible opposition and not opposing 4 opposing sake unlike d UNC who voted against d Police Reforms Bills all thou it was there Bills.
Socapro, since this SOE started Dr. Rowley indicated that the PNM initially fought the legislation and it was only after a lengthy period of back and forth, negotiations  and I think a setting up of a joint select committee to go through it then it came back to Parliament to be debated and then passed.

So to say the PNM did not do its duty is not entirely true......a lot of work went into it and was one of the bills they worked on with the government to get it passed so that it would have one more weapon in its arsenal to fight crime.   But hear de funny thing.....knowing how Kamla and dem operated in opposition, dey woulda fight the PNM tooth and nail and never support them if the shoe was on de other foot.....

I admittedly didn't pay much attention to it at the time because, like most people having orgasms over this SOE, I'm not in a gang so it didn't affect directly so I really couldn't care less.  Seems like I should have been paying closer attention.....people's civil rights are involved......
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Socapro

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 09:43:05 PM »
Click this link to view The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago

http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/a2011-10.pdf

Apparently it is draconian and there are not enough safeguards against it being abused by the government and the PNM opposition failed in its duty to ensure that enough safeguards are in place.

Wonder if fellas like Bakes and them have time to study this legislation and to give us their opinion on the chances of this legislation being used to abused T&T citizens as folks are saying because there aren’t enough safeguards!

There’s a debate happening right now on C-TV Live at http://www.ctntworld.com/livestream/ covering this topic.

You can't be serious... I talk about this way back in March or whenever it was proposed.  This is why people need to be vigilant, I can't believe is only now people talking about it being draconian and what not.  Aside from all ah that I said just a couple weeks ago that it is vague and overbroad... not being specific about what constitutes criminal activity and criminalizing more activity than it needs to.

Okay Bakes, dats cool!  8)

Weary & Brownsugar ah hear allyuh!!  :beermug:
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Bakes

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 09:57:50 PM »
Okay Bakes, dats cool!  8)

Weary & Brownsugar ah hear allyuh!!  :beermug:

I apologize for seeming impatient... but I am genuinely frustrated that nobody seemed to be paying attention when this was being discussed... and of the ones who were paying attention, or were party to the discussion (people like Subhas Panday among others) they expressing shock and surprise that the legislation is resulting in the infringement on the rights of suspects.  I don't profess to be some kinda expert or authority, but 99% of the time I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.  To a certain extent we here are powerless to do much, but members in TnT these are your rights being violated... people need to put pressure on their MPs, write letters to the Editor, whatever it takes to generate discussion/opposition to these laws.

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 10:01:31 PM »
On another note... phenomenal article in the Express

Gangs and the Golden Age


By Rubadiri Victor

Story Created: Sep 11, 2011 at 9:46 PM ECT
 Story Updated: Sep 11, 2011 at 9:46 PM ECT

We need to get this straight—or we perish. The truth about boys and gangs... This country is being held to ransom by about 6,000 boys organised into criminal gangs. These boys are led by about 60 very charismatic boys. These gangs are secret societies—with initiation rituals, codes of conduct, and ways of dress. They have heroes they worship and attempt to imitate, and strict systems of reward and punishment. These gangs are modes of achieving wealth, status and women. Most of all, they are ways of achieving "belonging" and "meaning".

The same impulses that form criminal gangs inform the creation of all male-bonding groups. Examples of male organisations formed with these same principles include: football and sporting clubs; music bands; forms of priesthood; religious sects; and military and paramilitary organisations. "Police and tief" are in fact cut from the same cloth. They are just boys in different types of gangs! The seminal book, Iron John by Robert Bly uncovers the real workings of this male impulse to organise this way.

Gangs appear when the male "initiation rituals" of a society fail. The boys that fail to feel included as "citizens" begin to create groups that resemble gangs. Middle-class nerds may create comic book clubs. Lower-income boys with their backs against the wall may form gangs
Here is an interesting fact: hillside communities breed gang formation. Why? Because of the distance of young males ages 12-27 from civic services and the cultural civilising centres. The Yakuza from Japan, the Mafia from Sicily, and the outlaws of the American West—all emerged from mountainous areas. But let's look at our own country. Where are the communities that have collapsed the most? The hills: Laventille; Bagatelle; Big Yard… We are not the first country dealing with collapsing lower income, hillside communities—and there are international precedents in terms of solutions.

Medellin in Colombia—once the deadliest city on earth—was rehabilitated by the visionary intervention of its former mayor Sergio Fajardo. Fajardo's philosophy was, "Our most beautiful buildings must be in our poorest areas." With that he transformed ghettoes into areas of safety, entrepreneurship and international tourist destinations. Working closely with all stakeholders, including the police, Fajardo rewarded communities who brought down their crime rates with major civic buildings—libraries, museums, community centres… Within four short years the community was unrecognisable. He brought centres of citizenship to the hillsides!

To dispossessed boys... the East Port of Spain Growth Pole and Heritage City which activists got into last year's Budget provides these sort of visionary interventions. Hopefully we shall see the implementation of these progressive social policies to accompany police action.
There's another solution—in our own history. It's located in the magic of our nation's Golden Age from 1930-1950.

In the 20th century the African diaspora produced a succession of golden ages of culture. The ages of rock, jazz, and hip-hop in the US. The age of samba in Brazil. The ages of reggae and dancehall in Jamaica. And the age of pan, mas and calypso here. Just to name a few. These ages fundamentally transformed these nations—empowering thousands in the lower classes and democratising their societies. Ultimately these cultural revolutions humanised the world. These revolutions were —in the words of one of my mentors Tony Hall—not just forms of music but "ways of seeing".

The remarkable thing is: these golden ages were created by mostly criminalised underclass boys aged 12 to 27. The greatest human cultural inventions of the 20th century were created by young criminal boys! That's the magic of Golden Age Culture!!!
The list is endless of lost boys who became global geniuses and kings: Bob Marley; Peter Tosh; Kitchener; Pele; Jay Z; Russell Simmons; Louis Armstrong; Bono; nearly all the early panmen! What would these charismatic young boys have been doing if they were not so transformed? Musical genius Quincy Jones was robbing a church with his gang when he played the piano that changed his life. It is our duty to put the pianos (pans, boxing gyms, football clinics, cricket nets, labs…) in the way of these boys. Use the clues of the golden age to create centres in the heart of collapsing communities.

The collapse of Laventille into a zone of black-on-black killing is a result of our leadership class abandoning the golden age legacy of east Port of Spain. Pan, mas, and calypso were forged "behind-de-bridge"—and transformed society for the better. There are now 300 Trini-style carnivals world-over worth $15 billion! "Behind-de-bridge" receives .0001 per cent of that revenue! During our Golden Age gangs transformed into orchestras, poets, inventors, and managers. But no industry was invested from their gifts. Politicians abandoned communities with the same civic amenities from Emancipation… So they collapsed... Let us now make reparation to our golden age communities—and build the temples for the youths dem to enter!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:53:34 PM by Bakes »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 10:55:36 PM »
I admittedly didn't pay much attention to it at the time because, like most people having orgasms over this SOE, I'm not in a gang so it didn't affect directly so I really couldn't care less.  Seems like I should have been paying closer attention.....people's civil rights are involved......

The problem is... you don't have to be in a gang in order to be caught up by the legislation. 

Secondly, Rowley and them only have 12 votes outta 41... no amount of debate was preventing passage of this legislation where only a simple majority is needed.  The hanging bill requires a Constitutional amendment... and a two-thirds or some other special majority... which is why they could hold it up.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:57:28 PM by Bakes »

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 11:08:15 PM »
rowley and co did agree with the gang bill doh and they cooperated with the government on its passing.

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 12:39:07 AM »
On another note... phenomenal article in the Express

Gangs and the Golden Age


By Rubadiri Victor

Story Created: Sep 11, 2011 at 9:46 PM ECT
 Story Updated: Sep 11, 2011 at 9:46 PM ECT

We need to get this straight—or we perish. The truth about boys and gangs... This country is being held to ransom by about 6,000 boys organised into criminal gangs. These boys are led by about 60 very charismatic boys. These gangs are secret societies—with initiation rituals, codes of conduct, and ways of dress. They have heroes they worship and attempt to imitate, and strict systems of reward and punishment. These gangs are modes of achieving wealth, status and women. Most of all, they are ways of achieving "belonging" and "meaning".

The same impulses that form criminal gangs inform the creation of all male-bonding groups. Examples of male organisations formed with these same principles include: football and sporting clubs; music bands; forms of priesthood; religious sects; and military and paramilitary organisations. "Police and tief" are in fact cut from the same cloth. They are just boys in different types of gangs! The seminal book, Iron John by Robert Bly uncovers the real workings of this male impulse to organise this way.

Gangs appear when the male "initiation rituals" of a society fail. The boys that fail to feel included as "citizens" begin to create groups that resemble gangs. Middle-class nerds may create comic book clubs. Lower-income boys with their backs against the wall may form gangs
Here is an interesting fact: hillside communities breed gang formation. Why? Because of the distance of young males ages 12-27 from civic services and the cultural civilising centres. The Yakuza from Japan, the Mafia from Sicily, and the outlaws of the American West—all emerged from mountainous areas. But let's look at our own country. Where are the communities that have collapsed the most? The hills: Laventille; Bagatelle; Big Yard… We are not the first country dealing with collapsing lower income, hillside communities—and there are international precedents in terms of solutions.

Medellin in Colombia—once the deadliest city on earth—was rehabilitated by the visionary intervention of its former mayor Sergio Fajardo. Fajardo's philosophy was, "Our most beautiful buildings must be in our poorest areas." With that he transformed ghettoes into areas of safety, entrepreneurship and international tourist destinations. Working closely with all stakeholders, including the police, Fajardo rewarded communities who brought down their crime rates with major civic buildings—libraries, museums, community centres… Within four short years the community was unrecognisable. He brought centres of citizenship to the hillsides!

To dispossessed boys... the East Port of Spain Growth Pole and Heritage City which activists got into last year's Budget provides these sort of visionary interventions. Hopefully we shall see the implementation of these progressive social policies to accompany police action.
There's another solution—in our own history. It's located in the magic of our nation's Golden Age from 1930-1950.

In the 20th century the African diaspora produced a succession of golden ages of culture. The ages of rock, jazz, and hip-hop in the US. The age of samba in Brazil. The ages of reggae and dancehall in Jamaica. And the age of pan, mas and calypso here. Just to name a few. These ages fundamentally transformed these nations—empowering thousands in the lower classes and democratising their societies. Ultimately these cultural revolutions humanised the world. These revolutions were —in the words of one of my mentors Tony Hall—not just forms of music but "ways of seeing".

The remarkable thing is: these golden ages were created by mostly criminalised underclass boys aged 12 to 27. The greatest human cultural inventions of the 20th century were created by young criminal boys! That's the magic of Golden Age Culture!!!
The list is endless of lost boys who became global geniuses and kings: Bob Marley; Peter Tosh; Kitchener; Pele; Jay Z; Russell Simmons; Louis Armstrong; Bono; nearly all the early panmen! What would these charismatic young boys have been doing if they were not so transformed? Musical genius Quincy Jones was robbing a church with his gang when he played the piano that changed his life. It is our duty to put the pianos (pans, boxing gyms, football clinics, cricket nets, labs…) in the way of these boys. Use the clues of the golden age to create centres in the heart of collapsing communities.

The collapse of Laventille into a zone of black-on-black killing is a result of our leadership class abandoning the golden age legacy of east Port of Spain. Pan, mas, and calypso were forged "behind-de-bridge"—and transformed society for the better. There are now 300 Trini-style carnivals world-over worth $15 billion! "Behind-de-bridge" receives .0001 per cent of that revenue! During our Golden Age gangs transformed into orchestras, poets, inventors, and managers. But no industry was invested from their gifts. Politicians abandoned communities with the same civic amenities from Emancipation… So they collapsed... Let us now make reparation to our golden age communities—and build the temples for the youths dem to enter!

excellent article

the last paragraph speaks volumes

i agree with the writer fully, we need to bring back programs and centers of importance to the ghetto, in order for revitalization to happen and future progress to be made

Offline ribbit

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 04:21:44 AM »
Regarding Medellin, ent Victor giving de mayor fajardo too much credit for its renaissance? Ah mean, it took a massive intervention to take out escobar. Without that intervention, how successful dis mayor fajardo woulda been? ???

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 05:25:22 AM »
Massive intervention?  Colombian police killed him, but that was hardly the end of the troubles.  Into the void stepped rival factions, including the brothers who ordered the hit on Andres Escobar.  Getting rid of Pablo hardly was the only obstacle to the renaissance... credit is duly forwarded in this case.

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 07:36:28 AM »
Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.
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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 08:00:30 AM »
Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 08:06:22 AM »
Massive intervention?  Colombian police killed him, but that was hardly the end of the troubles.  Into the void stepped rival factions, including the brothers who ordered the hit on Andres Escobar.  Getting rid of Pablo hardly was the only obstacle to the renaissance... credit is duly forwarded in this case.

can't believe you aren't aware of the US resources expended on escobar. it was an extra-ordinary effort and an international effort at that. yes, "into the void stepped rival factions" none of whom were in medellin because escobar was the kingpin in that town. to think escobar's removal had little to do with medellin's renaissance and it was all on the strength of some mayor is to lose sight of the context.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 02:28:53 PM »
Massive intervention?  Colombian police killed him, but that was hardly the end of the troubles.  Into the void stepped rival factions, including the brothers who ordered the hit on Andres Escobar.  Getting rid of Pablo hardly was the only obstacle to the renaissance... credit is duly forwarded in this case.

can't believe you aren't aware of the US resources expended on escobar. it was an extra-ordinary effort and an international effort at that. yes, "into the void stepped rival factions" none of whom were in medellin because escobar was the kingpin in that town. to think escobar's removal had little to do with medellin's renaissance and it was all on the strength of some mayor is to lose sight of the context.

Can't believe you are so naive as to think that anyone alive at that time was unaware of the US role in financing and training the Colombian military in the fight against cocaine production, along with US attempts to extradite Escobar.  The fact remains that Pablo was at war with the state of Colombia, directly responsible for the murders of federal judges and legislators.  In the end he was killed by police, not even the US-trained military.  So much for your massive intervention.

As for the substitute narco barons... I have no idea what point you're trying to make.  Are you saying that because they weren't directly in Medellin they couldn't control the local drug trade with the same iron fist as Pablo?  I won't even bother to laugh.  No one is suggesting that Pablo's removal did not factor, of course it did.  Your folly is in suggesting that this was all that it took and that the concentrated efforts of the Colombian government to provide residents an alternative to dependence on the cocaine trade is undeserving of Victor's praise.

The fact remains that the tentacles of the trade run so deep as to only offer up only a fraction of vulnerability to law enforcement.  It took a focused and collective effort to clean up Medellin and this went beyond removal of any one head of the hydra.  The credit is well-deserved.

Offline mukumsplau

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 04:08:24 PM »
witnessed one of the most baffling and nonsensical press conferences jus now dey...


Offline Deeks

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2011, 04:20:43 PM »
Well, I glad it pass. If ever or whenever there is a change in government and they were to used the laws passed by this majority government, I hope the then opposition don't cry dictatorship

Offline Socapro

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2011, 06:25:30 PM »
Related discussion on C-TV Live right now!

Go here: http://www.ctntworld.com/livestream/
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Bakes

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Re: Link to The Anti-Gang Act, 2011 - Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 10:58:14 PM »
Well, I glad it pass. If ever or whenever there is a change in government and they were to used the laws passed by this majority government, I hope the then opposition don't cry dictatorship

I think yuh should read the law before yuh say something like that.  God forbid you should be innocently arrested under this law, and trust me, there's a very high margin for error based on present construction.

 

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