March 29, 2020, 03:08:09 AM

Author Topic: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?  (Read 1274 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4259
    • View Profile
Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« on: September 23, 2011, 09:38:04 AM »
Scientist break the speed of light'

FRANK JORDANS and SETH BORENSTEIN
GENEVA— The Associated Press
Published Thursday, Sep. 22, 2011 4:08PM EDT

Taken from the globeandmail.com


A fundamental pillar of physics – that nothing can go faster than the speed of light – appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein’s theories.

Scientists at the world’s largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos travelling faster than light. That’s something that according to Einstein’s 1905 special theory of relativity – the famous E (equals) mc2 equation – just doesn’t happen.


“The feeling that most people have is this can’t be right, this can’t be real,” said James Gillies, a spokesman for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, outside the Swiss city of Geneva.

Mr. Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery.

“They are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they’ve done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements,” he said Thursday.

Scientists at the competing Fermilab in Chicago have promised to start such work immediately.

“It’s a shock,” said Fermilab head theoretician Stephen Parke, who was not part of the research in Geneva. “It’s going to cause us problems, no doubt about that – if it’s true.”

The Chicago team had similar faster-than-light results in 2007, but those came with a giant margin of error that undercut its scientific significance.

Outside scientists expressed skepticism at CERN’s claim that the neutrinos – one of the strangest well-known particles in physics – were observed smashing past the cosmic speed barrier of 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometres per second).

University of Maryland physics department chairman Drew Baden called it “a flying carpet,” something that was too fantastic to be believable.

CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometres) away in Italy travelled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment.

“We have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement,” said Antonio Ereditato, a physicist at the University of Bern, Switzerland, who was involved in the experiment known as OPERA.

The CERN researchers are now looking to the United States and Japan to confirm the results.

A similar neutrino experiment at Fermilab near Chicago would be capable of running the tests, said Stavros Katsanevas, the deputy director of France’s National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research. The institute collaborated with Italy’s Gran Sasso National Laboratory for the experiment at CERN.

Mr. Katsanevas said help could also come from the T2K experiment in Japan, though that is currently on hold after the country’s devastating March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

Scientists agree if the results are confirmed, that it would force a fundamental rethink of the laws of nature.

Einstein’s special relativity theory that says energy equals mass times the speed of light squared underlies “pretty much everything in modern physics,” said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. “It has worked perfectly up until now.”

He cautioned that the neutrino researchers would have to explain why similar results weren’t detected before, such as when an exploding star – or supernova – was observed in 1987.

“This would be such a sensational discovery if it were true that one has to treat it extremely carefully,” said Mr. Ellis.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline D.H.W

  • Forever Man Utd
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 17936
  • "Luck Favours The Prepared"
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 11:00:27 AM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world
"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid."
Youtube Channel


Offline pecan

  • Steups ...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 6854
  • Billy Goats Gruff
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 11:17:57 AM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world

yeah .. serious stuff.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 03:07:44 PM »
is too bad de lab in chicago run out of funding. dey have like a month to replicate the results.

so when is china going to build a particle accelerator?


Offline Bourbon

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5151
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 05:01:52 PM »
"We don't serve particles that travel faster than light", said the barman. A neutrino walks into a bar.
The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus ;with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4259
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 05:36:12 PM »
"We don't serve particles that travel faster than light", said the barman. A neutrino walks into a bar.

 ;D  nicesness
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline 100% Barataria

  • aka Nachilus
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4969
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 08:24:12 AM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world

yeah .. serious stuff.

More like an evolution of Einstein's theory.  Nothing new in science really, interesting that it would have taken this many years if true.  Concepts such as mass, length, time were all thought to be constant before the relativity theory.  Einstein of course changed that with "c" becoming known as the aboslute speed limit and the above quantities being dependent on it ("c").  What this discovery does is to change the absolute speed limit as we know it, instead of "c", becomes "c" plus some delta based on the findings; so mass, length, and time would still depending on the absolute speed limit, it just would no longer be "c"; defining the new relationship would be the real question.  Not to discredit the discovery, would be major, but it isn't as if all of our scientific fundamentals, such as those aforementioned and others, have to be discredited....
Education is our passport for the future for the future belongs to those who prepare for it today

Offline Dutty

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 9578
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 08:30:46 AM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world

yeah .. serious stuff.

More like an evolution of Einstein's theory.  Nothing new in science really, interesting that it would have taken this many years if true.  Concepts such as mass, length, time were all thought to be constant before the relativity theory.  Einstein of course changed that with "c" becoming known as the aboslute speed limit and the above quantities being dependent on it ("c").  What this discovery does is to change the absolute speed limit as we know it, instead of "c", becomes "c" plus some delta based on the findings; so mass, length, and time would still depending on the absolute speed limit, it just would no longer be "c"; defining the new relationship would be the real question.  Not to discredit the discovery, would be major, but it isn't as if all of our scientific fundamentals, such as those aforementioned and others, have to be discredited....

 :o daaamnn.....I didnt get none ah dat but it look like it make sense
Little known fact: The online transportation medium called Uber was pioneered in Trinidad & Tobago in the 1960's. It was originally called pullin bull.

Offline Feliziano

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 3146
  • www.TheWarriorNation.com
    • View Profile
    • The Warrior Nation
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 10:18:25 AM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world

yeah .. serious stuff.

More like an evolution of Einstein's theory.  Nothing new in science really, interesting that it would have taken this many years if true.  Concepts such as mass, length, time were all thought to be constant before the relativity theory.  Einstein of course changed that with "c" becoming known as the aboslute speed limit and the above quantities being dependent on it ("c").  What this discovery does is to change the absolute speed limit as we know it, instead of "c", becomes "c" plus some delta based on the findings; so mass, length, and time would still depending on the absolute speed limit, it just would no longer be "c"; defining the new relationship would be the real question.  Not to discredit the discovery, would be major, but it isn't as if all of our scientific fundamentals, such as those aforementioned and others, have to be discredited....

 :o daaamnn.....I didnt get none ah dat but it look like it make sense

ah get lost as soon as he say "Einstein"  ;D
Feliz
Warrior Nation Secretary & Membership Officer
http://www.TheWarriorNation.com

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4259
    • View Profile
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 01:32:56 PM »
This is very big if it turns out to be verified as legit. This would make Einstein's theory obsolete , big shake up in the scientific world

yeah .. serious stuff.

More like an evolution of Einstein's theory.  Nothing new in science really, interesting that it would have taken this many years if true.  Concepts such as mass, length, time were all thought to be constant before the relativity theory.  Einstein of course changed that with "c" becoming known as the aboslute speed limit and the above quantities being dependent on it ("c").  What this discovery does is to change the absolute speed limit as we know it, instead of "c", becomes "c" plus some delta based on the findings; so mass, length, and time would still depending on the absolute speed limit, it just would no longer be "c"; defining the new relationship would be the real question.  Not to discredit the discovery, would be major, but it isn't as if all of our scientific fundamentals, such as those aforementioned and others, have to be discredited....

Agreed. "c' may have been exceeded but it is still constant, and mass, time etc. are still conditional upon it, so relativity ain't dead yet at least not 'simple' field. May have implications for expansion of quantum folding, dimensionality and warping beyond Minkowski models and Lorentz transformations.

Cause for a closer look at M-theory...probably.

Or it could mean just mean...fack all.

Doh call me on it. I only talking what I see on Star Trek.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Neutrinos can move faster than the speed of light?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 08:32:54 PM »
Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result
By Jason Palmer
Science and technology reporter, BBC News


The team which found that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and confirmed the result.

If confirmed by other experiments, the find could undermine one of the basic principles of modern physics.

Critics of the first report in September had said that the long bunches of neutrinos (tiny particles) used could introduce an error into the test.

The new work used much shorter bunches.

It has been posted to the Arxiv repository and submitted to the Journal of High Energy Physics, but has not yet been reviewed by the scientific community.

The experiments have been carried out by the Opera collaboration - short for Oscillation Project with Emulsion (T)racking Apparatus.

It hinges on sending bunches of neutrinos created at the Cern facility (actually produced as decays within a long bunch of protons produced at Cern) through 730km (454 miles) of rock to a giant detector at the INFN-Gran Sasso laboratory in Italy.

The initial series of experiments, comprising 15,000 separate measurements spread out over three years, found that the neutrinos arrived 60 billionths of a second faster than light would have, travelling unimpeded over the same distance.

The idea that nothing can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum forms a cornerstone in physics - first laid out by James Clerk Maxwell and later incorporated into Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity.

Timing is everything
Initial analysis of the work by the wider scientific community argued that the relatively long-lasting bunches of neutrinos could introduce a significant error into the measurement.

Those bunches lasted 10 millionths of a second - 160 times longer than the discrepancy the team initially reported in the neutrinos' travel time.

To address that, scientists at Cern adjusted the way in which the proton beams were produced, resulting in bunches just three billionths of a second long.

When the Opera team ran the improved experiment 20 times, they found almost exactly the same result.


"This is reinforcing the previous finding and ruling out some possible systematic errors which could have in principle been affecting it," said Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration.

"We didn't think they were, and now we have the proof," he told BBC News. "This is reassuring that it's not the end of the story."

The first announcement of evidently faster-than-light neutrinos caused a stir worldwide; the Opera collaboration is very aware of its implications if eventually proved correct.

The error in the length of the bunches, however, is just the largest among several potential sources of uncertainty in the measurement, which must all now be addressed in turn; these mostly centre on the precise departure and arrival times of the bunches.

"So far no arguments have been put forward that rule out our effect," Dr Ereditato said.

"This additional test we made is confirming our original finding, but still we have to be very prudent, still we have to look forward to independent confirmation. But this is a positive result."

That confirmation may be much longer in coming, as only a few facilities worldwide have the detectors needed to catch the notoriously flighty neutrinos - which interact with matter so rarely as to have earned the nickname "ghost particles".

Next year, teams working on two other experiments at Gran Sasso experiments - Borexino and Icarus - will begin independent cross-checks of Opera's results.

The US Minos experiment and Japan's T2K experiment will also test the observations. It is likely to be several months before they report back.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236