Are we prepared to be banned from 2014 to see TTFF go bankrupt??

[Football supporter]

If TTFF didn't pay the players as ordered, it is highly possible that TTFF could be forced into bankruptcy. If this occurs, I believe FIFA would then prevent T&T from playing any FIFA international matches at any level.
So, in order to rid T&T of the spectre of Camps, Warner, Groden and the rest, are we prepared to miss out on 2014?

In the above scenario, who takes the reins in the interim period and how is a new federation formed and recognised?

Remember, there is no money, so how is a new federation formed and how do they get the mandate to proceed? I presume the zones get to approve a new board, but they are in disarray too.

And suppose they vote in a new set of progressive thinkers, will corporate T&T get behind them? Are they still afraid of Warner? And if this happens, will there be a tsunami against Jack?

Interesting times.

[grskywalker]

I was not thinking about bankruptcy, but i had thought what if we got banned because of all of Jack's activities and the irresponsible, unethical handling of the organization and players since Germany 2006

[weary1969]

Well since Brazil is a pipe dream anyways I say lets go and levy Dundonald St, Camps and when d judge say JW is liable we go strt wit d house in Arouca.

[ZANDOLIE]

If the cost of the 2014 campaign is an entire revamping of the national program, driven by a mix of highly competitive, dynamic, accountable and innovative locals and expats, who that can deliver consistent placing within the top three or four of CONCACAF into the forseeable future at all levels then so be it.

[tempo]

If there is precedence of FIFA sanctioning a team in the middle of qualification because its federation is insolvent then this MAY be an issue to be concerned about. I'm not sure if this has happened though. I think the belief may just be a way for the TTFF to manipulate a way to shut down the qualification effort and conveniently blame the '06 players.

If I am reading the current standings correctly, all Guyana has to do is tie one match and they are through to the next round. 

[Socapro]

If there is precedence of FIFA sanctioning a team in the middle of qualification because its federation is insolvent then this MAY be an issue to be concerned about. I'm not sure if this has happened though. I think the belief may just be a way for the TTFF to manipulate a way to shut down the qualification effort and conveniently blame the '06 players.

If I am reading the current standings correctly, all Guyana has to do is tie one match and they are through to the next round. 

Correction:
All Guyana has to do is WIN one match or tie both matches and they are through to the next round.

Current Group B Standing
# Team GP W D L F A D PTS Last 5 matches
1      Guyana 4   3   1   0   7   2   +5   10   DWWW
2      Trinidad & T*… 4   3   0   1   8   2   +6   9   WLWW
3      Bermuda 4   1   1   2   4   5   -1   4   DWLL
4      Barbados 4   0   0   4   0   10   -10   0   LLLL

[tempo]

If there is precedence of FIFA sanctioning a team in the middle of qualification because its federation is insolvent then this MAY be an issue to be concerned about. I'm not sure if this has happened though. I think the belief may just be a way for the TTFF to manipulate a way to shut down the qualification effort and conveniently blame the '06 players.

If I am reading the current standings correctly, all Guyana has to do is tie one match and they are through to the next round. 

Correction:
All Guyana has to do is WIN one match or tie both matches and they are through to the next round.

Current Group B Standing
# Team GP W D L F A D PTS Last 5 matches
1      Guyana 4   3   1   0   7   2   +5   10   DWWW
2      Trinidad & T*… 4   3   0   1   8   2   +6   9   WLWW
3      Bermuda 4   1   1   2   4   5   -1   4   DWLL
4      Barbados 4   0   0   4   0   10   -10   0   LLLL

[Football supporter]

If there is precedence of FIFA sanctioning a team in the middle of qualification because its federation is insolvent then this MAY be an issue to be concerned about. I'm not sure if this has happened though. I think the belief may just be a way for the TTFF to manipulate a way to shut down the qualification effort and conveniently blame the '06 players.

If I am reading the current standings correctly, all Guyana has to do is tie one match and they are through to the next round. 

Correction:
All Guyana has to do is WIN one match or tie both matches and they are through to the next round.

Current Group B Standing
# Team GP W D L F A D PTS Last 5 matches
1      Guyana 4   3   1   0   7   2   +5   10   DWWW
2      Trinidad & T*… 4   3   0   1   8   2   +6   9   WLWW
3      Bermuda 4   1   1   2   4   5   -1   4   DWLL
4      Barbados 4   0   0   4   0   10   -10   0   LLLL

Correction....All T&T have to do is draw away and win at home......lets get some positive thinking going here!!!

[just cool]

NO!!! jack warner and camps has taken football down enough on these two islands, and i can't bare to see it go down any further! when you have tuh worry about beating guyana tuh advance to the next level of competition, it's evidence enough as to how much damage was done to football in this country.

these men need to go down in their own little private jet, rather than on ah huge commercial liner with innocent passengers on board.
i've waited almost ah yr to see international football again, and i don't want tuh wait no mo. i suffered enough! fuh four yrs to be exact! through two gold cups, ah black list, three bum coaches, devastating losses to grenanda and the USA, bum players like alkie, and of late, a total lack of international friendlies, i'm maxed out,these fellas have tuh give we ah fackin break wid all this madness and neglect, that not only the footballers alone, but the fans had tuh also endure.

imagine this dog put the football on hold so he could pursue his political career? no mo i say! this could only happen in the caribbean where the ppl are fast asleep, anywhere else and this turkey woulda had tuh run fuh dear life! no mo i say!

[Socapro]

Regards FS's question, I think being banned and missing 2014 is well worth the sacrifice!
Look at it this way, even if we get pass Guyana to get to the next round, if we were to progress from the next round into the Hex as one of the top two teams from our group (considering our lack of top quality preparation games compared with the other teams in our group) then God has to be a Trini! 

The 3rd team we are most likely to meet in the next round in Group B alongside Mexico & Costa Rica is El Salvador who only require a draw in one of their two last remaining games and they are thru to the next round! So let’s ask ourselves this question and be honest with ourselves; Are we better prepared than 2 of these 3 teams Mexico, Costa Rica & El Salvador to make it as of of the top two in round three and progress to the Hex (round four)?

I agree we can still make the Hex if we get lucky but if I am honest with myself I can't say that we deserve to make it as one of the top two unless we seriously up our preparations with quality international friendlies from here on. Do we have the bank, organisation skills and leadership in our federation to arrange the required quality international friendlies to be properly prepared to make the Hex and then Brazil for 2014?
I am not sure but at least we are now giving it a decent try with Pfister at the helm as head coach!

If our 2014 campaign comes to an abrupt end because the TTFF is forced into bankruptcy then it is not such a major disaster since we were already embarked on a shakey campaign preparation wise anyway!
We will be better off in the long term once a new federation is in place and proper financial backers who have confidence in the new federation come on board!
Don't mind missing out on 2014 for the long-term benefits I've just outlined if scenario FS painted plays out!

Third Round

Group A — United States, Jamaica, Guatemala (Group E second-round winner), Group F second-round winner (either Antigua or Haiti)
Group B — Mexico, Costa Rica, Group A second-round winner (most likely El  Salvador), Group B second-round winner (either Guyana or T&T)
Group C — Honduras, Cuba, Panama (Group C second-round winner), Group D second-round winner (most likey Canada)

Fourth Round (Hexagonal)

The top two teams in each group will form the fourth-round group, also known as the hexagonal, which will play 10 games in 2013.

[Bakes]

If TTFF didn't pay the players as ordered, it is highly possible that TTFF could be forced into bankruptcy. If this occurs, I believe FIFA would then prevent T&T from playing any FIFA international matches at any level.

Based on what?  Would bankruptcy suddenly divest the TTFF of rights to receipts or disbursement of fund from FIFA/CONCACAF?  Is there something in the FIFA statutes that prescribes such a course following declaration of bankruptcy? Is there precedent establishing such?

How did we suddenly go from bankruptcy to  getting banned?

[soccerman]

That will be hard pill to swallow if we can't play FIFA international matches due to being declared bankrupt, that will be tough for the nation and fans.

[Trinimassive]

Let's just say this was possible (not that it is) but without question the football would be DEAD.
It badly wounded already and not playing international football for possibly years in no way shape or form could be a good thing.

[Football supporter]

If TTFF didn't pay the players as ordered, it is highly possible that TTFF could be forced into bankruptcy. If this occurs, I believe FIFA would then prevent T&T from playing any FIFA international matches at any level.

Based on what?  Would bankruptcy suddenly divest the TTFF of rights to receipts or disbursement of fund from FIFA/CONCACAF?  Is there something in the FIFA statutes that prescribes such a course following declaration of bankruptcy? Is there precedent establishing such?

How did we suddenly go from bankruptcy to  getting banned?

I'm presuming that by filing for bankruptcy an organisation is deemed as no longer trading? On that basis, TTFF would not be in a position to accept any funds, as those funds would automatically be seized by the liquidator to settle outstanding debtors. (I do not know if there is some precedent that would allow a national football federation to be exempt from this). I would also believe that as TTFF would no longer be able to trade, they would not be able to satisfy FIFA statute article 15c: The Congress may expel a Member if it loses the status of an Association representing Association Football in its country    Given the current climate enjoyed by Mr Warner in FIFA circles, it is also possible that FIFA would invoke article 15b: if it seriously violates the Statutes, regulations, decisions or the
Code of Ethics of FIFA Finally, with no income, I'm fairly certain that article 15a would be invoked: if it fails to fulfil its financial obligations towards FIFA

Furthermore article 13 prescribes:

Members have the following obligations:
(a) to comply fully with the Statutes, regulations, directives and
decisions of FIFA bodies at any time as well as the decisions of
the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) passed on appeal on
the basis of art. 60 par. 1 of the FIFA Statutes;
(b) to take part in competitions organised by FIFA;
(c) to pay their membership subscriptions;
(d) to ensure that their own members comply with the Statutes,
regulations, directives and decisions of FIFA bodies;
(e) to create a Referees Committee that is directly subordinate to
the Member;
(f) to respect the Laws of the Game;
(g) to comply fully with all other duties arising from these Statutes
and other regulations.
2 Violation of the above-mentioned obligations by any Member may
lead to sanctions provided for in these Statutes.

I believe that the two highlighted areas will be a problem as they seem to have already failed at e

Also, article 17 could also be invoked:

Bodies
1 A Member’s bodies shall be either elected or appointed in
that Association. A Member’s statutes shall provide for a procedure
that guarantees the complete independence of the election or
appointment.
2 Any Member’s bodies that have not been elected or appointed in
compliance with the provisions of par. 1, even on an interim basis,
shall not be recognised by FIFA.
3 Decisions passed by bodies that have not been elected or appointed
in compliance with par. 1 shall not be recognised by FIFA.

[Bakes]

I tried looking it up before I responded... couldn't find anything on point.  But that said:

-Declaring bankruptcy isn't the same as folding up/dissolution. 
-Bankruptcy doesn't mean that the TTFF won't be able to pay it's subscription fees...
-Declaration of bankruptcy doesn't mean that the TTFF will be threatened as the representative FIFA body in TnT.
-Declaration of bankruptcy doesn't mean that the TTFF won't be able to meet its financial obligations towards FIFA.
-The current impasse with the Refs isn't enough for FIFA to ban the TTFF

... but FIFA is a law unto itself so who knows.  I would say that it would benefit FIFA nothing to ban the TTFF... I certainly don't  see why they'd ban them only to allow a competing body to replace them as TnT rep.

[just cool]

Eh FS, what if the TTFF did declare bankruptcy and every thing went down as you presume, could the federation re emerge with ah whole new name and new administrators, would that be allowed?

[Football supporter]

Eh FS, what if the TTFF did declare bankruptcy and every thing went down as you presume, could the federation re emerge with ah whole new name and new administrators, would that be allowed?

I'm not an expert on FIFA protocol, but as far as I understand it, TTFF receive the mandate to represent football in T&T from the members (zones and leagues), and TTFF executives are appointed in elections by the same group. I would imagine that if TTFF closed, an emergency AGM would be conveined and a motion would be tabled to form a new federation. I would also imagine that the democratic process would be to invite applications from individuals or groups to stand for election to the new body.

Of course, in an open and democratic environment a new non corruptable phoenix should arise from the ashes of TTFF, but after witnessing the democracy at play in the East Zone, more likely is that the new executives would be another bunch of inbreds.

However, if a group can produce a sound business plan and can convince one or two zones or leagues, it could be interesting.

Another question is would the new federation be required to service the debts of TTFF? I know that there are rules in place in the UK to prevent the directors of a bankrupt company from forming a new company in the same business the next day, although I believe there are ways around this. 

[toonmili]

How much money does the TTFF owe the players? Do they owe them so much that the Ministry of Sport would let our federation go to ruin.

What I think will happen is: they will get a bail out of some sort.
People will be forced to resign. ( sort of, since they won't want it to seem like the gov't is messing with the football). But heads will have to roll.

Besides the federation will make more money if we make the next rounds, and even more so if we make the hex. ( not  that I think it's going to happen)

[sjahrain]

When last did TTFF fund anything football related......
Its my view that the people own the TTFF as it always taxpayers money that is used to finance activites of this money pit called TTFF
Correct me if I am wrong ..an amen will do if I am correct....

[Football supporter]

How much money does the TTFF owe the players? Do they owe them so much that the Ministry of Sport would let our federation go to ruin.

What I think will happen is: they will get a bail out of some sort.
People will be forced to resign. ( sort of, since they won't want it to seem like the gov't is messing with the football). But heads will have to roll.

Besides the federation will make more money if we make the next rounds, and even more so if we make the hex. ( not  that I think it's going to happen)

Well, seeing as Mr Warner has never completed a complete set of accounts, no one actually knows. However, worse case scenario (for Jack) is that in the absence of audited accounts, the judge will order that 50% of income is paid to the players. If he includes any government funding in that, the players will be owed around $90 million less interim payments of 7 & 4.2 million. There is no way the govt will (or should) pay this money.

The TTFF are unable to earn a single cent as ALLSPORT now organises all revenue creating events and this is (supposedly) scrutinised by Anil

[toonmili]

So they didn't tell them a set amount. They told them a percentage... that's dumb. Can't the players take 600k each and cool it. I thought this was just about world cup bonuses. How much bonus do they actually need.

[Trini]

How much money does the TTFF owe the players? Do they owe them so much that the Ministry of Sport would let our federation go to ruin.

What I think will happen is: they will get a bail out of some sort.
People will be forced to resign. ( sort of, since they won't want it to seem like the gov't is messing with the football). But heads will have to roll.

Besides the federation will make more money if we make the next rounds, and even more so if we make the hex. ( not  that I think it's going to happen)

I was going to say the same thing about the bailout and change of management, but remember FIFA golden rule of non interference by the state - this will be very tricky.

I glad the TTFF getting squeeze.
It is very clear that their organization is not being run properly, has not been done so for a very long time.
I wonder if they can take a page out the cricket board, although I know even that has its own bacchanal, but at least the TTCB appears to be viable and innovative wrt developing the local game..

[g]

The worst part in all of this is

We are finally getting the kind of coaching the national team needs given all our other limitations.

Interesting to see what happens.

[Football supporter]

So they didn't tell them a set amount. They told them a percentage... that's dumb. Can't the players take 600k each and cool it. I thought this was just about world cup bonuses. How much bonus do they actually need.

I'm sure the players would have taken TT$30k each as a bonus back in 2006. But why would you want them to take less than they deserve? Its taken 5 years to get this far. Thats 5 years of having your career ruined, 5 years of stress (remember, these guys had to fund the legal costs with no guarantee of winning), 5 years of constant abuse from Warner. Meanwhile Warner & Camps are flying around the world on private jets with VIP treatment while the money meant to improve T&T football has disapeared. Look at the embarrassments they've heaped upon T&T since 2006. At the end of the day, the money is gone. If the players took $600k, TTFF would still be broke and the WC money is still in someone else's bank.

This is the closest anyone has come to ridding T&T football of corruption. If TTFF go bankrupt, the main officers - Camps & Warner-will be held responsible. The would probably be forced to have assets seized. There could also be a forensic investigation ordered by the judge which could result in prison time for anyone found guilty of mismanaging TTFF funds. This is the end game and TTFF decided to go this far, now the players should finish them off.

[Socapro]

So they didn't tell them a set amount. They told them a percentage... that's dumb. Can't the players take 600k each and cool it. I thought this was just about world cup bonuses. How much bonus do they actually need.

I'm sure the players would have taken TT$30k each as a bonus back in 2006. But why would you want them to take less than they deserve? Its taken 5 years to get this far. Thats 5 years of having your career ruined, 5 years of stress (remember, these guys had to fund the legal costs with no guarantee of winning), 5 years of constant abuse from Warner. Meanwhile Warner & Camps are flying around the world on private jets with VIP treatment while the money meant to improve T&T football has disapeared. Look at the embarrassments they've heaped upon T&T since 2006. At the end of the day, the money is gone. If the players took $600k, TTFF would still be broke and the WC money is still in someone else's bank.

This is the closest anyone has come to ridding T&T football of corruption. If TTFF go bankrupt, the main officers - Camps & Warner-will be held responsible. The would probably be forced to have assets seized. There could also be a forensic investigation ordered by the judge which could result in prison time for anyone found guilty of mismanaging TTFF funds. This is the end game and TTFF decided to go this far, now the players should finish them off.

 

This is not the time for the players to feel sorry for Camps & Warner as those two never felt sorry for the players when they blacklisted and victimised them for demanding their fair share in promises bonuses from the world cup profits!

[Brownsugar]

So they didn't tell them a set amount. They told them a percentage... that's dumb. Can't the players take 600k each and cool it. I thought this was just about world cup bonuses. How much bonus do they actually need.

Toonmili, I see you are an "new" warrior.  I take it you are "new" as in you weren't lurking around the site for while and finally decided to join but rather "new" as in just come on de site and eh know the history.  In case of the latter I understand why you ask this question because without SW.net and this forum I would be asking dem same questions too. 

Now if FS' response did clear things up for you, there are tons and tons and tons of threads here to get informed, just ask E-man to help you find dem....doh ask me.....

[Fyzoman]

If TTFF didn't pay the players as ordered, it is highly possible that TTFF could be forced into bankruptcy. If this occurs, I believe FIFA would then prevent T&T from playing any FIFA international matches at any level.

Based on what?  Would bankruptcy suddenly divest the TTFF of rights to receipts or disbursement of fund from FIFA/CONCACAF?  Is there something in the FIFA statutes that prescribes such a course following declaration of bankruptcy? Is there precedent establishing such?

How did we suddenly go from bankruptcy to  getting banned?

Thank you Bakes!!!!
I reading thru these post and asking mehself, could we really be banned?!?!
And should we now have a 20-page thread going on and on about how we GETTING (!!!) banned.
Ah know we all here for de "talk" eh but c'mon man (!!!) (said wid ah yankee accent)

[tempo]

There is nothing in the FIFA statutes that indicate teams participating in FIFA competitions would be disallowed from continuing because their federation has become insolvent. The concern of the '06 players court victory somehow causing the current players and fans hardship is a red-herring.

[elan]

Men does say they care and they want better organization and support from the TTFF, but I don't believe that. Look how hesistant men are to hypothetically answer yes they won't mind being banned. Pfister called out the clubs on treating the players like animals and shipping them out to the end of the earth and even worst over the Horizon falling to their death. Most everyone hopped onto the BANDWAGON that Pfister steering in full support of "the caring coach", the "coach that we need".

Yet Pfister has yet to mumble a word about the TTFF not paying players and staff on time and with a sense of urgency. Or, not one wutend schreit on the federation lack of friendlies in preparation for the qualifiers.

Once football playing everything is good, and once we winning games nothing can get better and players improvement and welfare can take a back seat. Cause mind you, preparation games are crucial to a young or "new" player to international football development and thus his welfare. To deny him this opportunity to refine, gain confidence and gain much needed exposure to lift himself to a level where he wil lbe able to give a good account of himself on game day, is as Pfister rightly put it "treating players like animals".

[ZANDOLIE]

Men does say they care and they want better organization and support from the TTFF, but I don't believe that. Look how hesistant men are to hypothetically answer yes they won't mind being banned. Pfister called out the clubs on treating the players like animals and shipping them out to the end of the earth and even worst over the Horizon falling to their death. Most everyone hopped onto the BANDWAGON that Pfister steering in full support of "the caring coach", the "coach that we need".

Yet Pfister has yet to mumble a word about the TTFF not paying players and staff on time and with a sense of urgency. Or, not one wutend schreit on the federation lack of friendlies in preparation for the qualifiers.

Once football playing everything is good, and once we winning games nothing can get better and players improvement and welfare can take a back seat. Cause mind you, preparation games are crucial to a young or "new" player to international football development and thus his welfare. To deny him this opportunity to refine, gain confidence and gain much needed exposure to lift himself to a level where he wil lbe able to give a good account of himself on game day, is as Pfister rightly put it "treating players like animals".

That is it right there.