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Author Topic: Mancini imprisoned for rape...  (Read 5232 times)

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Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 12:10:21 PM »
Two years for rape?  ...and these are the people who got the Olympics over us?  :cursing:

Offline fari

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 04:59:46 PM »
i was surprised is only 2 years he get...i wonder if the fact he's a rich and famous footballer had anything to do with it.   how dread are brazilian prisons?   does anyone know?   

Offline FF

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 05:00:33 PM »
i was surprised is only 2 years he get...i wonder if the fact he's a rich and famous footballer had anything to do with it.   how dread are brazilian prisons?   does anyone know?   

maybe it was statutory rape
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 08:11:02 PM »
Two years for rape?  ...and these are the people who got the Olympics over us?  :cursing:

What should the penalty have been?

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 08:13:27 PM »
Two years for rape?  ...and these are the people who got the Olympics over us?  :cursing:

What should the penalty have been?
For rape?  At least 10 years surely.  15-25 sounds good as well.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 08:42:15 PM »
Two years for rape?  ...and these are the people who got the Olympics over us?  :cursing:

What should the penalty have been?
For rape?  At least 10 years surely.  15-25 sounds good as well.

Based on what... your emotions?

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 09:07:26 PM »
Two years for rape?  ...and these are the people who got the Olympics over us?  :cursing:

what u saying? only brazilians rape or all countries who have hosted the olympics in the past have no rapists?

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 11:45:16 PM »
Based on what... your emotions?
The laws in most other countries.  People here get more than that for crack possesion (not that thats right).  Battery/assault can also get you more time than that and that can just be two guys in a bar fight.

Emotions have nothing to do with it.  This link tells me that it was a he said, she said.  These situations can really be impossible to tell sometimes whether he is guilty or she is lying.  However, if you're found guilty, you're found guilty...if you lose the justice system then you just have anarchy and vigilantism.  That being said I have to admit I wouldn't want to be the one who has to decide whether he is guilty or not if it is this contentious.

what u saying? only brazilians rape or all countries who have hosted the olympics in the past have no rapists?
No system is perfect but I'm saying that 2 years is not enough time for a rapist, even if the charge is contentious.  I was wrong thinking it was Brazil though and I will admit I am still bitter about them getting the Olympics over Chicago  :-[

I can't say I'm surprised its so little in Italy considering the type of stuff that has happened there for thousands of years.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 01:04:48 AM by theworm2345 »

Offline Blue

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 12:50:32 AM »
i was surprised is only 2 years he get...i wonder if the fact he's a rich and famous footballer had anything to do with it.   how dread are brazilian prisons?   does anyone know?   

Everything I've seen on TV about Brazilian prisons in the big cities looks terrifying. Fortunately for him this crime took place in Italy, which is where he will serve his sentence.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 09:44:05 AM »
The laws in most other countries.  People here get more than that for crack possesion (not that thats right).  Battery/assault can also get you more time than that and that can just be two guys in a bar fight.

Emotions have nothing to do with it.  This link tells me that it was a he said, she said.  These situations can really be impossible to tell sometimes whether he is guilty or she is lying.  However, if you're found guilty, you're found guilty...if you lose the justice system then you just have anarchy and vigilantism.  That being said I have to admit I wouldn't want to be the one who has to decide whether he is guilty or not if it is this contentious.

No offense, but I'm not sure how much you really know about "the laws in most other countries" than you do.  But let's be real, your scope of reference is US law as implied by your earlier comments.  In the US the penalties are a range, not any set numerical value.  In every case there are aggravating and/or mitigating circumstances.  You say that "if you're found guilty, you're found guilty" as though that's all that there is to be considered, and this isn't the case.  For example, a "mercy" killing (someone severely injured in the woods and they ask you to put them "out of their misery") is technically a premeditated killing, but that isn't going to be punished the same as a cold-blooded calculated killing, even though the elements of the crime are the same. 

My point to you (implicit in your own statements) is that we don't know the details of the crime, and courts are justified in taking these details into consideration when assessing a penalty.  Blanket statement condemning the sentence because we disagree with it is an emotional (rather than rational) reaction whether you agree with that or not.

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 11:12:54 AM »
The laws in most other countries.  People here get more than that for crack possesion (not that thats right).  Battery/assault can also get you more time than that and that can just be two guys in a bar fight.

Emotions have nothing to do with it.  This link tells me that it was a he said, she said.  These situations can really be impossible to tell sometimes whether he is guilty or she is lying.  However, if you're found guilty, you're found guilty...if you lose the justice system then you just have anarchy and vigilantism.  That being said I have to admit I wouldn't want to be the one who has to decide whether he is guilty or not if it is this contentious.

No offense, but I'm not sure how much you really know about "the laws in most other countries" than you do.  But let's be real, your scope of reference is US law as implied by your earlier comments.  In the US the penalties are a range, not any set numerical value.  In every case there are aggravating and/or mitigating circumstances.  You say that "if you're found guilty, you're found guilty" as though that's all that there is to be considered, and this isn't the case.  For example, a "mercy" killing (someone severely injured in the woods and they ask you to put them "out of their misery") is technically a premeditated killing, but that isn't going to be punished the same as a cold-blooded calculated killing, even though the elements of the crime are the same. 

My point to you (implicit in your own statements) is that we don't know the details of the crime, and courts are justified in taking these details into consideration when assessing a penalty.  Blanket statement condemning the sentence because we disagree with it is an emotional (rather than rational) reaction whether you agree with that or not.
I'm basing it on what I read on Wikipedia, which, while may not be the best source, tells me that rape can be a death sentence in many countries, first or third world.  You're right that the degree can differ, but thats why they have different degrees for most counts (at least here, I don't know about other places).  As far as I'm concerned rape is rape...if its one of these he said, she saids its rape, and if its the same crime but someone who breaks in and beats the crap out of them, its still the same crime, though with breaking and entering and assault added on.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 11:22:21 AM by theworm2345 »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 11:29:55 AM »
I'm basing it on what I read on Wikipedia, which, while may not be the best source, tells me that rape can be a death sentence in many countries, first or third world.  You're right that the degree can differ, but thats why they have different degrees for most counts (at least here, I don't know about other places).  As far as I'm concerned rape is rape...if its one of these he said, she saids its rape, and if its the same crime but someone who breaks in and beats the crap out of them, its still the same crime, though with breaking and entering and assault added on.

In some countries even the rape victim is punished because somehow she is at fault for "losing her honor."  I hardly think that the extreme penalties applied in some jurisdictions should be used in arguing a higher sentence in this case.  And no, "rape is not rape".  Few things in life are black and white, and fortunately this, in most cases, is not how the law is applied either.

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 11:44:28 AM »
In some countries even the rape victim is punished because somehow she is at fault for "losing her honor."  I hardly think that the extreme penalties applied in some jurisdictions should be used in arguing a higher sentence in this case.  And no, "rape is not rape".  Few things in life are black and white, and fortunately this, in most cases, is not how the law is applied either.
Yes of course we all know of that, but often in the same countries the rapist can also be put to death.  To some extent you are right, whether someone is guilty or not guilty though, in the eye of the law, is black and white, though often the people who decide that aren't the people who hand down the sentence (jury decides guilt and judge decides sentence, at least here).  You look at the Kobe case, he could have got anything from probation to life in prison (yes I know thats here).  I can't remember any cases where a rapist got only two years though, and most of my knowledge of these cases is from footballers playing in Europe as you only here about the really bad ones on the news here.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 02:12:02 PM »
Yes of course we all know of that, but often in the same countries the rapist can also be put to death.  To some extent you are right, whether someone is guilty or not guilty though, in the eye of the law, is black and white, though often the people who decide that aren't the people who hand down the sentence (jury decides guilt and judge decides sentence, at least here).  You look at the Kobe case, he could have got anything from probation to life in prison (yes I know thats here).  I can't remember any cases where a rapist got only two years though, and most of my knowledge of these cases is from footballers playing in Europe as you only here about the really bad ones on the news here.

Dude... this is my day job, I'm not just talking in some hypothetical sense or citing internet sources.  Guilt isn't even black and white (it is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond every/all conceivable doubt... THAT would be black and white), how then can sentencing be? 

The only times sentencing approaches black and white is where there are "three-strikes" laws or mandatory minimums.  Right here in the US the sentencing guidelines vary not only from Federal to state courts, but also varies from state to state.  Two years is not as ridiculous a penalty as you're trying to make it out to be. 

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 02:52:24 PM »
Yes of course we all know of that, but often in the same countries the rapist can also be put to death.  To some extent you are right, whether someone is guilty or not guilty though, in the eye of the law, is black and white, though often the people who decide that aren't the people who hand down the sentence (jury decides guilt and judge decides sentence, at least here).  You look at the Kobe case, he could have got anything from probation to life in prison (yes I know thats here).  I can't remember any cases where a rapist got only two years though, and most of my knowledge of these cases is from footballers playing in Europe as you only here about the really bad ones on the news here.

Dude... this is my day job, I'm not just talking in some hypothetical sense or citing internet sources.  Guilt isn't even black and white (it is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond every/all conceivable doubt... THAT would be black and white), how then can sentencing be?
I don't think I get your argument.  In a trial, unless the jury is split in which case there is either another trial or they choose not to refile, the defendant(s) is/are either found guilty or not guilty by the jury (unless I've missed out on something big).  I'm not talking about not guilty because its not beyond reasonable doubt or not guilty be reason of mental defect or whatever, because at the end of the day those are both just not guilty.  Maybe in the minds of the jury or in public opinion it is not black and white, but ultimately the verdict is black and white, guilty or not guilty, or they try again, right?  Its like soccer, if the ball crosses the line there may be thousands of different opinions but ultimately it only matters if the referee (the jury) decides it did or did not cross the line (guilty or not guilty).  I'm no lawyer or law student and I don't even have any lawyers in my family except one uncle who does tax law I think, but to me it still seems very black and white.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:01:33 PM by theworm2345 »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 03:15:54 PM »
I don't think I get your argument.  In a trial, unless the jury is split in which case there is either another trial or they choose not to refile, the defendant(s) is/are either found guilty or not guilty by the jury (unless I've missed out on something big).  I'm not talking about not guilty because its not beyond reasonable doubt or not guilty be reason of mental defect or whatever, because at the end of the day those are both just not guilty.  Maybe in the minds of the jury or in public opinion it is not black and white, but ultimately the verdict is black and white, guilty or not guilty, or they try again, right?  Its like soccer, if the ball crosses the line there may be thousands of different opinions but ultimately it only matters if the referee (the jury) decides it did or did not cross the line (guilty or not guilty).  I'm no lawyer or law student and I don't even have any lawyers in my family except one uncle who does tax law I think, but to me it still seems very black and white.

Most convictions are obtained on circumstantial, rather than direct evidence.  Consequently there is usually some element of doubt as to whether a person is really guilty.  That doubt, however you want to quantify it, is closer to a "shade of gray" than black and white.  Unfortunately the law has to establish a threshold or cut off, the compromise settled on in the American system is "guilt beyond reasonable doubt." 

Don't believe me about guilt not being black and white? Look a the reactions to the Casey Anthony and OJ cases... some people believe they were innocent, some believe they were guilty.  For both defendants, they just happened to have more people who didn't necessarily believe either was innocent, but who didn't think they were guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  I also once served on a jury where it was clear as day that the defendant was guilty, but two jurors were sympathetic to him so they held out for acquittal.... resulting in a mistrial.  I'm not sure if he was re-tried or not, but he never served any time.  Does that make him innocent?  Hardly.The flip side are cases where defendants are wrongly convicted due to error or misconduct... not only in the US, but elsewhere as well, to cite one famous example.  Don't get "the verdict" and "guilt" confused, the verdict might be black and white, guilt, not so much.


But all of that is an aside... we're talking sentencing and the propriety thereof.

Offline theworm2345

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 04:39:35 PM »
But all of that is an aside... we're talking sentencing and the propriety thereof.
OK fair enough, actual guilt and a guilty verdict are not the same thing, and I guess we were talking about the two different things the whole time.  I am talking about a guilty verdict on rape charge.  If a defendant gets a guilty verdict, they have to be punished (whether its probation or a life sentence).  I believe the law has guidelines on sentences but ultimately the judge makes the decision and different judges vary in response to different crimes (I think).  For example, they can't give a convicted shoplifter a death sentence and they can't give a convicted mass murderer probation even if they want to (this is only here, I don't know how this part is done elsewhere).  I don't know what the exact guidelines for rape charges are anywhere in the world, but, in my opinion, they shouldn't be only two years, and I believe most countries guidelines for sentencing reflect that. 

I'm on break from school and you're making me do research  :banginghead: but here is what I could come up with for average sentence length for rape (not talking about statutory rape, which is a whole different subject).

Florida: ~12 years: http://edr.state.fl.us/Content/resource-demand/criminal-justice/reports/criminal-justice/cj25.pdf
Scotland: ~6 years http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Img/338582/0099001.gif
Australia: ~7 years http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/newsletter/n14pdf/Figure6.gif

This page has more info and in some other countries (seemingly mainly Scandinavia and Russia) they do differ in their definitions of rape.

There is another aspect, at least here, where you can plead out and get a deal where it is up to the prosecutor to offer you a punishment so they don't have to go to trial.  Maybe, if they are desperate, couldn't get the charge to hold up in court, and the perpetrator would go free, they could offer two years as a deal but thats the only way I could see it being justified.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 05:02:40 PM by theworm2345 »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 06:22:41 PM »
I appreciate the effort you're putting into this, but really, you're preaching to the choir here.  Posting the "average sentence" doesn't really help the argument one way or another, the specific facts of the case drive the issue... and ultimately affect sentencing.

Offline theworm2345

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Offline frico

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 07:08:15 AM »
Dont ever give a woman the chance to say that you raped her,simple as that.No matter how much of a"cock teaser" she might be,I am sure most of you blokes may have been in situations before where it was "touch and go" that you could,should or would,nothing better than she telling yuh to undress her or she undressing herself.

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 10:28:11 AM »
Dont ever give a woman the chance to say that you raped her,simple as that.No matter how much of a"cock teaser" she might be,I am sure most of you blokes may have been in situations before where it was "touch and go" that you could,should or would,nothing better than she telling yuh to undress her or she undressing herself.

Breds this is your contribution?

Offline SUPA

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Re: Mancini imprisoned for rape...
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 11:35:49 AM »
i was surprised is only 2 years he get...i wonder if the fact he's a rich and famous footballer had anything to do with it.  how dread are brazilian prisons?   does anyone know?

Yeah, it bad as any other prison. It doh matter what country it is sah, is de same damn thing all over, 2 slice ah bread, hard wuk and hard pr==k yuh will get in any prison  ;D. Greetings massive. Ah cah believe how long ah eh log in on de forum. Well ah will be honest doh, without logging in, ah does check out de forum from meh phone daily doh.

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« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 11:38:07 AM by SUPA »
RIP Micahel Jackson.

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