Doh get tie up, Tobago....

[Brownsugar]

Doh get tie up, tobago
Wednesday, June 6, 2012
Tony Fraser

It is not only politically unsophisticated for Tobagonians, whatever their political affiliation, to take the Prime Minister at her word on “internal self-government” for the island; but it is also counter to the history of this issue for anyone, including Ashworth Jack, to believe that a government would expeditiously meet the desire of Tobago. 
 
Part of that history is the reality that even in the instance when Tobago-born champion of internal self-government ANR Robinson had the opportunity to influence the change he had campaigned for, his administration did not amend the THA Act to give Tobago the kind of control over its local affairs that has been called for over the last 35 years.        
 
If Jack or anyone else were to say that such questioning would be taking political cynicism a step too far, the Prime Minister herself provided proof, perhaps unintentionally, when she placed the revision of the THA Act in the context of national constitutional reform.
 
Talk and some action about reforming the 1976 republican Constitution goes back to the 1987 Hyatali Commission. The document produced at the request of the National Alliance for Reconstruction government remains on the shelf. Keeping company with that draft called “Thinking Things Over” are other documents produced for governments and by private groups, including one from the Independent senators and the Principles of Fairness group established by Ken Gordon and company. 
 
Every political party, every government since then has had constitutional reform as a major campaign promise. To say that the promises have not materialised would be an understatement: not one of those parties in government has made any serious attempt to have a reform draft come close to the Parliament.
 
Therefore, when Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar hitches internal self-government to reform of the national constitution there must be serious scepticism as to when such an exercise is to take place. Further, if you add to it the entrenched difficulty in achieving consensus in the national Parliament to get the requisite majority to bring fundamental reform to the constitution, a ten-year time frame would be a conservative guess.  
 
But there is need for more than a few basics on what is being hotly debated: how does the Prime Minister define what she calls the “internal self-government” she has promised to the people of Tobago? It is certain that almost every individual, group and institution has a notion of what this means and that is likely to be contrary to what the other groups desire.
 
It is therefore certain that if and when Prime Minister Persad-Bissessar comes to agree on draft legislation for internal self-government for Tobago there will be fundamental disagreement over her version of internal self-government. But the confusion only begins there. There is no shortage of documents, drafts and proposals etc with regard to this issue of giving Tobago the kind of constitutional relationship with Trinidad that could be beneficial to the “sister isle.”
 
 
The Seemungal draft, the drafts of Sir Ellis Clarke and of Karl Hudson-Phillips, the recommendations of the Hyatali Commission, the Justice Gaya Persaud report, the current report of the John Prince Committee, the Green Paper put out by the Attorney General and now the work to be done by the committee of two Tobago attorneys and political scientist Hamid Ghany, as announced by the Prime Minister.
 
Included in all of the documents would be the views of the technical legal experts, special interest groups and the Prince Report is said to contain the views of the thousands of people canvassed in 41 meetings in Tobago and Trinidad. In addition, the major political parties including the TOP, PNM, COP were canvassed. Although invited, the United National Congress declined participation.
 
There is also the puzzling behaviour of Minority Leader Jack with regard to the work of the Prince Committee. The record on the establishment of the committee shows that it was Jack that initiated the setting up of the group. He also signed an initial draft of the document produced. He seemed to have fallen out of love with that process, however, after the PP, inclusive of the TOP, won the general election in May 2010. There is therefore need for serious explanation there.
 
The PP, on behalf of the TOP and its supporters, kicked off the 2013 election campaign last weekend with announcements of projects to come in Tobago involving hundreds of millions of dollars. Are these merely electoral enticements? The Tobago electorate needs to contemplate the reality that the expenditure of billions of dollars allocated by the central government has taken place over the eight years of the PNM-led central government and THA without one step to the required internal self-government being taken.
 
The lesson the electorate in Tobago has to learn from this is that it should not equate expenditure, statements of commitment by prime ministers and the establishment of committees to amend the THA Act with the achievement of greater autonomy, devolution of power from the centre and/or internal self-government. I believe the young people’s phrase would be: “Doh get tie up.”


http://www.guardian.co.tt/columnist/2012-06-06/doh-get-tie-tobago?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook



WRT to the part in bold, all of a sudden Madame PM and de Country Bookie knows what good for Tobago.....THA elections cyar come fast enough.....so ah could give she, de Country Bookie and sell out Ashworth Jack de finger!!!!.....

[Brownsugar]

Tobago under siege by Kamla’s Cabinet
By Maxie Cuffie - June 6th 2012

THE country looked on this weekend as the Cabinet travelled to Tobago to dispense first monetary and financial crumbs, a hint of political bacchanal and then the crowning glory of an imperial power: the promise of self-government to its subjects.

The events were rich both in hypocrisy and irony. Hypocrisy because it took the Imperial Power of a Trinidad Cabinet to tell the people of Tobago that liberation day would be “sometime” before the end of this year. Irony because it was quite obviously the plan for “self-government” put forward by the Imperial Power in its curiously published “Green Paper” that was to guide the liberation process, this notwithstanding the fact that the people of Tobago have apparently put forward their own self-government plans informed by a bipartisan committee which included former Independent Senator Eastlyn Mc Kenzie and John Prince.

No one should be fooled. This is very serious business. To the north of Tobago lies Blocks 22A, 22B and other offshore energy blocks identified for future exploitation for gas and oil. These blocs were at the heart of the bitter maritime dispute between Trinidad and Tobago and Barbados only six years ago.

As everyone who lives in Trinidad and Tobago knows, Tobago lies to the north and east of Trinidad. There is no boundary between Trinidad and Barbados. The key to attaining access for Trinidad to those blocs runs directly through one place and one place alone: Tobago.

If Tobagonians allow a Green Paper to be rushed through the Parliament of Trinidad that ignores the vast potential wealth lying off its north coast then their promise of “self-government” will no doubt be nothing more than a beautifully timed ruse which will tie them to an Imperial Trinidad into perpetuity.

The Green Paper defines Tobago as the island together with an extension out measured from the low tide of ten miles. That should just about cover the Buccoo Reef.

More importantly, Trinidad will be fixed for life. Trinidad will certainly extend all around Tobago to capture the sea, the water column, the living resources (flying fish) and the mineral resources (oil and gas) that lie beneath the sea. The TOP, ensnared within the PP, could not it seems care less.

Interestingly, prominent Tobagonians such as former THA Secretary Hochoy Charles and the “well-respected” Deborah Moore Miggins have put the brakes on.

Ironically, it is the PNM that finds itself in the position of the old DAC: Full self-government including governance of all the resources of Tobago.
In one fell swoop, the Green Paper that the Trinidad Cabinet sold to Tobagonians “hook, line and sinker” this weekend under the guise of “self-government” before the end of the year at a party in Market Square would inevitably ensure not self-government but perpetual servitude for Tobago.

No one can say that was time or money badly spent by the Trinidad Cabinet in the relaxing posh surroundings of the spanking new Magdalena Grand Beach Resort and a massive fete to dull the senses of Tobagonians in the meantime in Market Square.

So it would do well for Tobagonians not to allow their senses to be dulled by the rum and roti politics practised by so many over the years, but to remain sober and alert to the antics of the so-called Imperial Power.

http://www.tntmirror.com/2012/06/06/tobago-under-siege-by-kamlas-cabinet

[Bourbon]

Tobago under siege by Kamla’s Cabinet
By Maxie Cuffie - June 6th 2012


No one should be fooled. This is very serious business. To the north of Tobago lies Blocks 22A, 22B and other offshore energy blocks identified for future exploitation for gas and oil. These blocs were at the heart of the bitter maritime dispute between Trinidad and Tobago and Barbados only six years ago.

As everyone who lives in Trinidad and Tobago knows, Tobago lies to the north and east of Trinidad. There is no boundary between Trinidad and Barbados. The key to attaining access for Trinidad to those blocs runs directly through one place and one place alone: Tobago.

If Tobagonians allow a Green Paper to be rushed through the Parliament of Trinidad that ignores the vast potential wealth lying off its north coast then their promise of “self-government” will no doubt be nothing more than a beautifully timed ruse which will tie them to an Imperial Trinidad into perpetuity.

The Green Paper defines Tobago as the island together with an extension out measured from the low tide of ten miles. That should just about cover the Buccoo Reef.

More importantly, Trinidad will be fixed for life. Trinidad will certainly extend all around Tobago to capture the sea, the water column, the living resources (flying fish) and the mineral resources (oil and gas) that lie beneath the sea. The TOP, ensnared within the PP, could not it seems care less.

I'd like as many Tobagonian opinions on this as possible.

[Bakes]

To be honest, I find Tobagonians unreasonable in this regard, yes there could (should?) be more delegation of authority to the local administration, but to what extent? The fact of the matter is that he who pays the pipers names the tunes... Tobago is largely sustained by funds from Trinidad, how they expect "internal self-governance" when is largely revenue from Trinidad running the island?

[kounty]

To be honest, I find Tobagonians unreasonable in this regard, yes there could (should?) be more delegation of authority to the local administration, but to what extent? The fact of the matter is that he who pays the pipers names the tunes... Tobago is largely sustained by funds from Trinidad, how they expect "internal self-governance" when is largely revenue from Trinidad running the island?

I thought I was missing something. Tobago going and use tobago tax dollars and spend it how tobago see fit? no probs with that. but that sound like one step to independence. anybody could break down where tobago revenue comes from? I think I hear somebody on here mention  the US model for how it should work.  In that model we dam sure georgia tax payer dollars ent wholesale funding everything that goin on in arizona.

[Bourbon]

Well that's why I asked about especially the issue concerning the blocks.

From what I read....and I subject to be corrected if needed.......the arrangement being proposed is an increase in the allocation of the national budget, AS WELL AS the rights to whatever found in Tobago waters.

Now I not sure of the rationale behind this, but in my mind, whatever revenue comes from those blocks, Tobago still would be receiving a portion from the budgetary allocation....just by virtue of the percentage of the allocation being increased. Why the insistence for both?

So I looking for other perspectives on this before jumping to conclusions.

[Brownsugar]

These are the two bills being proposed to make the changes to current arrangement and bring about more internal self government for Tobago. 

http://tha.gov.tt/images/stories/tha/pdf/tha%20act%20-%20amendment%20bill%20final11.pdf


http://tha.gov.tt/images/stories/tha/pdf/tha%20act%20-%20amendment%20bill%20final11.pdf

I read a draft copy while it was still under consultation but did not read these final documents. 

Bakes, if Tobago was not reliant on Trinidad at all then Tobagonians could push for internal self government.  Do I read you right??  Well, the little bit that they got in 1996 helped in some small measure in moving the island away from being hamstrung by having to wait on for Central Government to "call the tune" for everything.  But 1996 didn't go far enough. 

Bourbon, I need to read the documents again, but what you posted does seem unreasonable.  I'll have to read the bills and check it out.

Right now my main concern is that for 4 years Tobagonians held bi-partisan consultations on the topic only to be insulted by these PP clowns who are now setting up ANOTHER committee to consult who and on what??  Steups!!  Wasting mih blasted time!!

[Brownsugar]

This the Country Bookie's Green Paper.  Don't know one arse about Tobago but drafting Green Paper for comment and holding consultations....steups!!!....

http://www.ag.gov.tt/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=OCuX6AtdcFI%3d&tabid=37

[Brownsugar]

Bourbon, that part in bold appears to substantiate your observation.  I think the rationale behind wanting to increase the maritime borders and harness the benefits of whatever oil and gas is found is, Tobago was at one point an island with its own resources that saw the control over those resources taken away when it became a unitary state.  The idea is control, if not in total, of those resources should once again be with Tobago and be less reliant on Central Government.

But I could see how someone could find it unreasonable for Tobago/THA to want both arrangements in place.

Chief Secretary reports to constituents         
Friday, 18 May 2012
 

THA Chief Secretary, Orville London, hands out one of 24 deed titles to residents of his electoral district ScarboroughCalder Hall at a packed meeting in Mason Hall. Photo courtesy INFO DEPT THA.
There was a massive turnout of constituents of Scarborough/Calder Hall at the Mason Hall Secondary School on Thursday night for the launch of the THA "Executive Council Reporting to the Districts" programme.

Reports on the activities of various divisions of the Assembly were presented by two Secretaries and an Assistant Secretary, as well as the Chief Secretary Orville London who represents the district in the House of Assembly. At the end of the session constituents were invited to ask questions and or raise concerns about issues affecting them.

In his wide ranging report which was enthusiastically received by the audience that over flowed from the large auditorium into the foyer of the building, London buoyed by the reception he was receiving said "what happens in Tobago in the next six months will determine what happens to Tobagonians for the next 60 years".

He said his administration was about "protecting, developing and preserving but regardless of how much we protect, develop and preserve Tobago it will not matter if Tobago does not belong to Tobagonians".

London said it was the first time in the history of Tobago "we have to fight for what is ours and if we fight and lose, Tobago will be lost".

He recalled that in 2007 the House of Assembly comprising members of the People's National Movement (PNM) and the Tobago Organisation of the People (TOP) voted to appoint an independent working committee headed by Tobagonians Dr John Prince to propose amendments to the THA Act to provide internal self government to Tobago and in 2009 again agreed that the committee recommend amendments to the T&T Constitution as it related to Tobago.

He recalled that for five years the committee went about meeting Tobagonians at 42 workshops and at three consultations across Tobago, as well as Tobagonians in Trinidad and came up with two Bills drafted by senior counsel Russell Martineau. He added that all the political parties in Tobago participated in the exercise without objection. However, he said following the May 24 2010 general election the TOP headed by Minority Leader Ashworth Jack boycotted the debate on the Bills which was later approved and sent to the Prime Minister for Cabinet consideration before releasing them for public comment.

He said the Bills were set aside by the Prime Minister and the Attorney General in collusion with the "Mason Hall boy Ashworth Jack", and instead a Green Paper was published for public comment.

London noted that the Green Paper differed in a number of ways from the Bills including "what is Tobago, who or what is a Tobagonian, who should vote at a THA election and the parliamentary allocation". He explained that the Bills propose that the size of Tobago will be up to 200 nautical miles according to international law and would provide vast economic benefits from the marine resources including oil and gas. He added that the Bills propose that someone must be residing in Tobago for four years to vote at an Assembly election and not three months, while they also recommend that the parliamentary allocation should be 8 per cent of the national budget and not 6.9 per cent as propose by the Green Paper.

There were loud shouts of no when the Chief Secretary asked the audience: "Are you going to take that from Ramlogan and Jack, then if you are not going to take that and if it reaches a point where hundreds of Tobagonians don't want it they will withdraw the Green Paper if they see they are going to lose an election," he added.

London told his listeners if they felt so strongly about the issue they should put their signature to the petition being circulated at the meeting. He said the petition will then be forwarded to the Prime Minister.

Land leases were also handed out to 22 residents of Adelphi Estate which was recently acquired by the THA.

Constituents of Lambeau/Signal Hill will have their say on Monday at 7 p.m. at the Signal Hill Community Centre.

http://tha.gov.tt/news/news-releases/427

[Bourbon]

Well this is what I was asking..and trying to understand if the intention is seceding or what.


Cause it certainly is shaping up to appear like that. And if it is...no problem.....but then say so from the outset. Because there is a HIGH possibility of gas in those blocks....how much is the question.


All resources for both islands...regardless. Let Tobago run things according to how they thing is best, or at least let their input be pivotal. Give them a percentage of the budget and allow them to do what they need to.

Like for example, I heard a question being placed to London about the return of funds.

Basically the explanation given was that they don't often get the funds from CEPEPP, based on the whims of the central government, and it comes down to money being taken from other aspects of the budget to do what needs to be done rather than shut them down etc. The contrast was made to the difference in Local Govt and Ministries where excess funds need to be returned....regardless of a similar situation being experienced. Many people could, and understandably would have issues with that...as there may have questions with transparency and appropriation of funding etc. I personally sympathetic to the situation and understand what is trying to be achieved and what may be necessary.


So my solution would be this:

Tobago does up their budget, with whatever expenditure required etc. They receive their budgetary allocation.....more or less...getting the fixed percentage....and they do with it whatever they deem necessary, subject to checks and balances as usual. Not giving them the money and telling them what to do with it. Remove the need for continual dependency on the Central Govt, and let whatever returns come back to the treasury, or, like I have seen it done in groups like a church etc: where specific departments can raise funds on their own, and give it to the treasurer for holding. Given that they raised those funds, they can request it whenever they desire and access it and use it as they see fit, especially if it was raised for a specific purpose. Maybe even in the heritage stabilization fund.....if that can be used for that purpose....to specifically deal with Tobago needs.


Lets say Tobago gets 500 million in income from tourism. National Budget is 50 Billion. 8% is 4 Billion.....even if you push it to 10% it would be 5 Billion. Tobago's proposed budget is 6 Billion. 5 Billion and 500 million is 5.5 Billion, not all that they proposed they would need, but still enough to do something. And allow them to work from there, with usual accounting and checks and balances being maintained.



At least that's how I see it.

[Brownsugar]

Well this is what I was asking..and trying to understand if the intention is seceding or what.


Cause it certainly is shaping up to appear like that. And if it is...no problem.....but then say so from the outset.

 

Yuh know, I always get confused when the topic of internal self government comes up and secession makes it way into the debate as the intention because its not part of the discourse in Tobago.  From where I sit, I think Tobagonians just want a solution that is workable for both parties.  That's why comparisons are made to the US model or the St. Kitts & Nevis model.  Now I will admit that I don't have detailed knowledge of how both systems work.  I have a vague idea about the Federal and State system in the US but I can't pronounce on it definitively.  Its one of the things I always planned to get more information on (especially the St. Kitts & Nevis model) to understand why its brought into the debate.  I just need to make the time to understand it.

I had already left Tobago when the consultations started and I was only able to listen in on the radio during the last rounds of consultations in the latter stages when adjustments to the initial drafts were being made.  I probably would have been in a better position to understand why the St. Kitts/US model is a proposed solution.

Anywho, the intention is not secession.  But I can't say that 10, 15, 20 years down the road Tobagonians get fed up of the foolishness by Central Government every time the topic comes up and say to hell with it secession is the way to go.

[just cool]

Eh BS you should change yuh handle to "tobago gyul" yes, bc i never see nobody as passionate as you as far as tobago is concerned.  can't say ah blame yuh gyul, bc it have fellas who carries the same passion for trinidad, with names like true "trini", pur "trini",  "trni" infinite and so on and so on.

i had my stint with bagonians, and tuh tell yuh the truth i eh able wid allyuh.  my first love was from studley park, and even though she lived in trinidad, her heart was in tobago.

and just like most tobago girls back then, she also had a huge distrust for trinidadians, one that i could not fully understand, one that eventually pushed us apart for good, and even though she was well cute, i just could not continue to vibe with someone who saw starved out suffering little me as the enemy.

i believe in order for that country to move forward as a solid force, the powers that be must stop ignoring the 800 lbs guerrilla in the room and try to unite all races cultures religions and ethnicity (the things that separate us) there in trinbago.

i fully agree that tobago has been marginalized, ignored and tossed aside. for yrs i've been hearing this from tobagoians , and there must be some truth to it, after all, 16 million frenchmen can not be wrong. it's time for this strife to end , and the government should put their shoulders to the wheel and do right by tobago, it's been a long time coming.





PS: BTW brown sugar,  words of consolation if you don't mind. the govt also ignored us east of the dry river from the inception, no new infrastructure, in other word, NO NOTHING!!! every body i know behind the bridge living hand to mouth and still is. the PNM, NAR, UNC and GOPD knows who else has totally ignored and abandoned EDR.

the ppl there has continued to live in deplorable conditions since my great grandparents walked the land, and same the way the colonials left it, and it remains today. i know it eh no consolation, but i think that the govt did not only ignored yuhs guys, but they ignored most poor underprivileged trinis.                                                                      anyway good luck with that.

[weary1969]

TO LATE D WHOLEOF TOBAGO YELLOW. At least in Trinidad there is some lil red. All yuh just need to seal d deal and give d THA 2 Jack and that is 2 seal d deal rite there.

[Brownsugar]

TO LATE D WHOLEOF TOBAGO YELLOW. At least in Trinidad there is some lil red. All yuh just need to seal d deal and give d THA 2 Jack and that is 2 seal d deal rite there.

hhhhhhmmmmm.......ah going to do mih own internal polling and get back to you.....I will admit, the PNM as an alternative eh palatable at all.......but if dais what ah have to do.....ah goh hold mih nose and vote......

[Bourbon]

TO LATE D WHOLEOF TOBAGO YELLOW. At least in Trinidad there is some lil red. All yuh just need to seal d deal and give d THA 2 Jack and that is 2 seal d deal rite there.

hhhhhhmmmmm.......ah going to do mih own internal polling and get back to you.....I will admit, the PNM as an alternative eh palatable at all.......but if dais what ah have to do.....ah goh hold mih nose and vote......

I eagerly await the outcome of the THA elections for this said reason.

[Brownsugar]

It's called politics, Mr London
By Winford James

In Tuesday's instalment of CCN's Morning Edition, chief secretary Orville London and attorney-at-law Martin George crossed swords on the procedure for moving forward with constitutional reform for Tobago. London wanted the Prime Minister to respect his office and the Tobago House of Assembly by sitting down with him and discussing the bills his Executive Council had commissioned, while George wanted to have one bill produced out of the last Executive Council bill and the Attorney General's bill. Whose desire is more legitimate?

It doesn't matter; the electorate will settle the matter.

London is putting a lot of faith in a sit-down with Mrs Persad-Bissessar over his bills. He seems to think that he and she would come to some compromise that would be beneficial to both of them. But he has not spelt out what the benefits might be for him. Acceptance of his bill with only minor adjustments? Variations to the proposals on the major issues?
Two of the major issues are 1. establishment of the offices of "Premier'' and "Deputy Premier'' to replace the offices of "Chief Secretary'' and "Deputy Chief Secretary''; 2. deletion of the current Fifth Schedule (which identifies the THA's current areas of responsibility) and rearrangement of the sixth and seventh schedules to allow for the THA to have responsibility for "the formulation and implementation of policy in respect of all matters save and except those set out in the (new) Fifth Schedule'', which now sets out the central government's areas of responsibility; and 3. setting Tobago's boundaries.

Would London agree to a rejection of these proposals and a reversion to what now obtains?
Mrs Persad-Bissessar is under no legal constraint to negotiate with London on constitutional reform for Tobago, though she might consider that she is under some political constraint.

But London is banking on her not negotiating with him at this point since he envisages that the Tobago Organisation of the People (TOP) will pay a huge political price for the People's Partnership government's disrespect of the THA and, therefore, of the "will of Tobagonians''. After all, a THA-appointed committee, composed of highly respected persons, had gone across the length and breadth of Tobago (as well as to notable Tobagonians living in Trinidad) and canvassed views relating to constitutional reform. Mrs Persad-Bissessar would be disrespecting that procedure at her political peril.

So London should be rejoicing that the Prime Minister has set up a committee to examine the THA bill and the bill in the Attorney General's green paper. She has played into his hands since Tobagonians will have none of it!
For his part, Martin wants to step into the breach and make the two bills one through an unspecified process of harmonisation and through a one-month period of consultation between his committee of three (political scientist Hamid Ghany, attorney Christlyn Moore, and himself) and the Tobagonian public. He finds it quite reasonable and credible to do so despite London's protestations that a far more widespread consultation had already taken place over a longer period of time, and that it would be pointless to go through the process again.He had clearly bought the Prime Minister's line of reasoning.

I think the Chief Secretary is right on the matter of consultation but wrong on the matter of producing one bill out of two, but my opinion hardly matters since the business of constitutional reform for Tobago is very clearly a political one in which the PNM and the TOP are looking for advantage in respect of impending THA elections.
The Prime Minister promised the TOP constitutional reform and wants TOP leader Ashworth Jack to win the chief secretaryship so, from her standpoint, it hardly makes political sense to grant that reform by facilitating London's agenda. She will feel obliged to push the AG's bill.
Accordingly, George's committee would seem to be splendid window dressing. While it might favour a few relatively inconvenient proposals in the THA bill, it will lean predominantly in the direction of the AG's bill.
And the people will decide. That's politics. And if a third party spoils the play, then that's politics too.

• Winford James is a UWI lecturer and political analyst.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/commentaries/It_s_called_politics__Mr_London-157668205.html

[Brownsugar]

TO LATE D WHOLEOF TOBAGO YELLOW. At least in Trinidad there is some lil red. All yuh just need to seal d deal and give d THA 2 Jack and that is 2 seal d deal rite there.

hhhhhhmmmmm.......ah going to do mih own internal polling and get back to you.....I will admit, the PNM as an alternative eh palatable at all.......but if dais what ah have to do.....ah goh hold mih nose and vote......

I eagerly await the outcome of the THA elections for this said reason.

Ah feel ah goh start a THA Elections thread when de bell ring and all this stuff could be put in there......the outcome of the election will be interesting....

[weary1969]

TO LATE D WHOLEOF TOBAGO YELLOW. At least in Trinidad there is some lil red. All yuh just need to seal d deal and give d THA 2 Jack and that is 2 seal d deal rite there.

hhhhhhmmmmm.......ah going to do mih own internal polling and get back to you.....I will admit, the PNM as an alternative eh palatable at all.......but if dais what ah have to do.....ah goh hold mih nose and vote......

U hold yuh nose I steups

[Bakes]

Bakes, if Tobago was not reliant on Trinidad at all then Tobagonians could push for internal self government.  Do I read you right??  Well, the little bit that they got in 1996 helped in some small measure in moving the island away from being hamstrung by having to wait on for Central Government to "call the tune" for everything.  But 1996 didn't go far enough. 

If Tobago want to run de whole show... then they should foot the bill too, is how I see it.  How you want to go shopping with my money?

[Bakes]

Bourbon, that part in bold appears to substantiate your observation.  I think the rationale behind wanting to increase the maritime borders and harness the benefits of whatever oil and gas is found is, Tobago was at one point an island with its own resources that saw the control over those resources taken away when it became a unitary state.  The idea is control, if not in total, of those resources should once again be with Tobago and be less reliant on Central Government.

Dai'z ah real Tohbeegonian perspective on the situation.  A more objective analysis would show that Tobago didn't have any natural resources to speak of when it was Annexed (1814?)... unless yuh counting dasheen and coconut.  But now, after 200 years of being propped up by Trinidad, after the Central government research and explore with largely Trinidadian funds, all ah sudden Tobago saying..."whaaaaaaat??  We have oil and gas?  Aye, Trinidad... it's been real eh "

Unreasonable?  Just a touch.

[asylumseeker]

Trinidadian funds?

[Mango Chow!]

and just like most tobago girls back then, she also had a huge distrust for trinidadians, one that i could not fully understand, one that eventually pushed us apart for good, and even though she was well cute, i just could not continue to vibe with someone who saw starved out suffering little me as the enemy.

......but, Just Cool, come nuh man! If YOU was a (Trini OR Tobagonian or ANY kinda) woman, YOU would truss a Trini man? (especially)Wit yuh heart?   We, who like more woman than the planet could contain?

[just cool]

and just like most tobago girls back then, she also had a huge distrust for trinidadians, one that i could not fully understand, one that eventually pushed us apart for good, and even though she was well cute, i just could not continue to vibe with someone who saw starved out suffering little me as the enemy.

......but, Just Cool, come nuh man! If YOU was a (Trini OR Tobagonian or ANY kinda) woman, YOU would truss a Trini man? (especially)Wit yuh heart?   We, who like more woman than the planet could contain?

Nah chow, ah wasn't talking bout dat kinda trust. the mistrust i was referring too was the kind that black yankee have fuh white folks, or the love hate relationship west indians and yankee so shuningly share, ah tribal mistrust if you may.

[just cool]

Bourbon, that part in bold appears to substantiate your observation.  I think the rationale behind wanting to increase the maritime borders and harness the benefits of whatever oil and gas is found is, Tobago was at one point an island with its own resources that saw the control over those resources taken away when it became a unitary state.  The idea is control, if not in total, of those resources should once again be with Tobago and be less reliant on Central Government.

Dai'z ah real Tohbeegonian perspective on the situation.  A more objective analysis would show that Tobago didn't have any natural resources to speak of when it was Annexed (1814?)... unless yuh counting dasheen and coconut.  But now, after 200 years of being propped up by Trinidad, after the Central government research and explore with largely Trinidadian funds, all ah sudden Tobago saying..."whaaaaaaat??  We have oil and gas?  Aye, Trinidad... it's been real eh "

Unreasonable?  Just a touch.

Tobago have dasheen?? i always thought it was breadfuit and praco.  yuh sure is not grenada yuh have in mind? 

[Brownsugar]

Bourbon, that part in bold appears to substantiate your observation.  I think the rationale behind wanting to increase the maritime borders and harness the benefits of whatever oil and gas is found is, Tobago was at one point an island with its own resources that saw the control over those resources taken away when it became a unitary state.  The idea is control, if not in total, of those resources should once again be with Tobago and be less reliant on Central Government.

Dai'z ah real Tohbeegonian perspective on the situation.  A more objective analysis would show that Tobago didn't have any natural resources to speak of when it was Annexed (1814?)... unless yuh counting dasheen and coconut.  But now, after 200 years of being propped up by Trinidad, after the Central government research and explore with largely Trinidadian funds, all ah sudden Tobago saying..."whaaaaaaat??  We have oil and gas?  Aye, Trinidad... it's been real eh "

Unreasonable?  Just a touch.

Right.  And these Tobagonian upstarts should just continue to be reliant on Mama Trinidad for eternity because she saved them 200 years ago.  Is a good thing these upstarts didn't get the memo.  Or they would not have had the THA in its current form which btw, is an institution local government in Mama Trinidad would like to be modelled after.

Oh and how could these upstarts want more for their island is beyond me.....how dare they??!!

 

[Bakes]

Right.  And these Tobagonian upstarts should just continue to be reliant on Mama Trinidad for eternity because she saved them 200 years ago.  Is a good thing these upstarts didn't get the memo.  Or they would not have had the THA in its current form which btw, is an institution local government in Mama Trinidad would like to be modelled after.

Oh and how could these upstarts want more for their island is beyond me.....how dare they??!!

 

Trinidad save allyuh 200 years ago? Nah... been propping up allyuh for 200 years is more like it, which is what I stated.  Does that mean that  Tobago indebted to Trinidad for the rest of eternity? Of course not, but saying they "want more for their island" is a gross understatement of the situation.  Under the current proposal, Tobago want to have their cake and eat it too... it is plain for everyone to see, even if you fail to acknowledge this yourself.  Distorting my argument doesn't change that fact.

[Brownsugar]

Right.  And these Tobagonian upstarts should just continue to be reliant on Mama Trinidad for eternity because she saved them 200 years ago.  Is a good thing these upstarts didn't get the memo.  Or they would not have had the THA in its current form which btw, is an institution local government in Mama Trinidad would like to be modelled after.

Oh and how could these upstarts want more for their island is beyond me.....how dare they??!!

 

Trinidad save allyuh 200 years ago? Nah... been propping up allyuh for 200 years is more like it, which is what I stated.  Does that mean that  Tobago indebted to Trinidad for the rest of eternity? Of course not, but saying they "want more for their island" is a gross understatement of the situation.  Under the current proposal, Tobago want to have their cake and eat it too... it is plain for everyone to see, even if you fail to acknowledge this yourself.  Distorting my argument doesn't change that fact.

Which is what it is, a proposal.  Then there is discussion, debate, back and forth and a workable solution at the end between the two islands.  Which brings me back to my initial position.  What de arse Kamla want more consultations at this point for??  Steups!!  Games.....

[Bakes]

Which is what it is, a proposal.  Then there is discussion, debate, back and forth and a workable solution at the end between the two islands.  Which brings me back to my initial position.  What de arse Kamla want more consultations at this point for??  Steups!!  Games.....

... and which is why I offering my take on said proposal.  As for a workable solution, honestly I don't know what will constitute such.  I don't know enough about Tobago's internal affairs or the limits on their autonomy to really say where they should be granted more or what would be fair.  Based on my limited outsider's perspective, I'm left to offer my take on what's actually on the table.

[just cool]

Brown sugar, hit the man two dry coconut and ah bennaball in he head and dun the whole argument nah! 

[Brownsugar]

The Tobago gambit
By Michael Harris

The series of events co nducted by the People's Partnership in Tobago last week which included the opening of several facilities on the island, the re-opening of the Magdalena Grand Beach Resort and the sod-turning ceremony for a new service station at Roxborough, were planned not only to celebrate the party's second year in office but to signal as well the launch of the campaign for the THA elections due in January next year.


So Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar lost no time in characterising Chief Secretary of the THA, Orville London, as both a "bully'' and a "cry-baby''. Mr London for his part was more concerned to train his guns on TOP leader, and THA Minority Leader, Ashworth Jack whom he accused of "colluding" with the Government to "undermine the majority and create a scenario where the autonomy of the THA is almost permanently eroded."

That the campaign should have started so long before the election is due is perhaps not surprising. In the first place the UNC, the dominant force in the Partnership, revels in election campaigns. They bring a welcome relief from the nuisance of trying to give the appearance that they are running a government.
But more significantly, in the case of the THA elections, they present the opportunity to wrest political authority from the last bastion of the PNM political power and, in so doing, ensure that the TOP remains firmly locked in the embrace of the Partnership which has suffered some serious cracks of late.
It is unfortunate, therefore, that if the early skirmishes are any indication, the central issue around which the campaign is going to be fought is that of internal self-government for Tobago. It is unfortunate because that issue is the most serious constitutional issue to be faced by the people not only of Tobago but of Trinidad as well for many years and it is greatly to be feared that, in the context of a bruising election campaign (is there any other kind?), the kind of serious discussion which the issue demands is going to be buried under an avalanche of robber talk and rubbish.

Already much of the early debate has centred not on any of the substantive issues but on which bill is the true-true bill. This arises from the fact that there are three draft bills on internal self-government in circulation. Two of these bills are the product of an exercise commissioned by the THA and the other comes in the Green Paper published by the Government. This Government draft is based substantively on the work done by a committee co-ordinated by Reginald Dumas.

Mr London's position is that he wants the Prime Minister to respect the Tobago House of Assembly by sitting down with him and discussing the bills his Executive Council had commissioned. As far as he is concerned those bills constitute the official position of the duly elected representatives of the people of Tobago while the Green Paper he charges "basically emanates from a group of private citizens and was given to Cabinet by the THA's Minority Leader.''
The Prime Minister for her part accuses Mr London of trying to "bully" the People's Partnership Government into approving "carte blanche," two bills he submitted to her to establish internal self-government for the island.

The fact that there has been little debate between the contenders on the substantive issue of the bills is cause for serious concern. The fact is that two of those bills are constitutional amendment bills and both of them propose serious and radical changes to the existing Constitution and to the very structure of the nation of Trinidad and Tobago as we know it today.
It is for this reason that we must be greatly alarmed about the fact that the Prime Minister announced, at a party rally in Tobago, that she has set up a committee comprised of three persons (political scientist Hamid Ghany, attorney-at-law Christlyn Moore, and attorney-at-law Martin George) to hold consultations with the people of Tobago on the provisions of the various bills. The committee has been given one month to complete its work.

It is inconceivable that this Government could seriously be contemplating bringing to Parliament any Bill, regardless of its provenance, which contemplates a radical reordering of the Constitution and governance structure of Trinidad and Tobago and to do so without any consultation or discussions with the people of Trinidad. This simply cannot be allowed.
In fact, from the very start of this process the Government has acted as though the issue of internal self-government for Tobago is an exclusively "Tobago'' issue. The Green Paper was first published months ago as a pull-out in the Tobago News which is circulated mainly in Tobago.

And, notwithstanding a release from the Attorney General's office which stated that the Green Paper "would be made available to all members of the public "it was many weeks before that document became available on the Government's website and it is still not readily available in print anywhere in Trinidad.
That very same release from the Attorney General's office made the point that, "What is prepared is a profound change in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago. It will affect the entire nation, not just a part of it and the entire nation (Trinidad and Tobago) must therefore have the opportunity to express its views.'' Now we find that consultations on the Bills are for Tobago only. And, given the fact that the committee has been given only one month to have its consultations, can the Government argue that consultations are intended for Trinidad as well?

Let me, for the record, note that I fully support the concept of internal self-government for Tobago. But any such fundamental change as envisioned by both of these bills deserves comprehensive and exhaustive discussion throughout the length and breadth of Tobago and Trinidad.
Tobago has every right to want to bring to an end its status as a "ward'' of Trinidad. But such emancipation cannot be bought at the price of the marginalisation, disenfranchisement and utter disregard for the people of Trinidad. Trinidad must also not become a "ward'' of Tobago.
The supporters of internal self-government in Tobago had better be careful that this is not exactly the impression that this Government wishes to give to their brothers and sisters across the water.


• Michael Harris has been for many years a writer and commentator on politics and society in Trinidad and the wider Caribbean. He is a long-standing member of the Tapia House Group and works as a human
resource executive
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/commentaries/The_Tobago_gambit-158387885.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook