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Author Topic: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?  (Read 4870 times)

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Offline palos

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Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« on: July 01, 2012, 05:42:18 PM »
4 La Liga titles & 4 Copa Del Rey titles with Real

1 World Cup and 1 Euro Cup with Spain


Man get fired in 2004 after winning yet another La Liga title and making Real as dominant as they were in the days of Puskas and dem

Soon as he get fired....Real couldn't win nutting fuh years.

He win CL, UEFA Cup, all kinda success.  Special one and dem want nutting wit he.  If Pep could duplicate the kinda success that Del Bosque has enjoyed.....it would be indeed special.

I remember back in de day Stephen Hart used to tell me that Del Bosque was a boss and I used to counter and say .."well anybody could win wit dem kinda players he had".  Dem days, Real had de Galacticos with Ronaldo, Zidane, Roberto Carlos, Raul etc.  But dat same team couldn't win when he wasn't coach.

Gotta give Del Bosque he props.  Is there a better coach out there?  Fergie has longevity but only at club level. 

Pep has won everything in sight with his worst finish to date being 2nd in La Liga and CL semi finalist.

Capello, Lippi, Low, etc all have wonderful records....but seemingly not close to Del Bosque

Mourinho would be up there but again...he hasn't coached a national team.

I could think of Big Phil with Brazil.  World cup and domestic winner.  Maybe that's Del Bosque's only competition?

Tactically, Del Bosque is a master.  Yuh realize he play practically the whole tournament WITHOUT an out and out striker?  Fabergas play what they refer to as a false 9....basically a withdrawn striker.  But we all know Fabergas eh no striker.  But it certainly help to confuise defenders because they not sure who to pick up.  Every move Del Bosque make this tournament was a master stroke and Italy were helpless today.  Not often you can say that about the Italians.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 05:46:09 PM by palos »
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Offline Observer

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 08:47:20 PM »
4 La Liga titles & 4 Copa Del Rey titles with Real

1 World Cup and 1 Euro Cup with Spain


Man get fired in 2004 after winning yet another La Liga title and making Real as dominant as they were in the days of Puskas and dem

Soon as he get fired....Real couldn't win nutting fuh years.

He win CL, UEFA Cup, all kinda success.  Special one and dem want nutting wit he.  If Pep could duplicate the kinda success that Del Bosque has enjoyed.....it would be indeed special.

I remember back in de day Stephen Hart used to tell me that Del Bosque was a boss and I used to counter and say .."well anybody could win wit dem kinda players he had".  Dem days, Real had de Galacticos with Ronaldo, Zidane, Roberto Carlos, Raul etc.  But dat same team couldn't win when he wasn't coach.

Gotta give Del Bosque he props.  Is there a better coach out there?  Fergie has longevity but only at club level. 

Pep has won everything in sight with his worst finish to date being 2nd in La Liga and CL semi finalist.

Capello, Lippi, Low, etc all have wonderful records....but seemingly not close to Del Bosque

Mourinho would be up there but again...he hasn't coached a national team.

I could think of Big Phil with Brazil.  World cup and domestic winner.  Maybe that's Del Bosque's only competition?

Tactically, Del Bosque is a master.  Yuh realize he play practically the whole tournament WITHOUT an out and out striker?  Fabergas play what they refer to as a false 9....basically a withdrawn striker.  But we all know Fabergas eh no striker.  But it certainly help to confuise defenders because they not sure who to pick up.  Every move Del Bosque make this tournament was a master stroke and Italy were helpless today.  Not often you can say that about the Italians.

Well you know how I fel about this subject, as you and I discussed this when he was released from Madrid
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Offline Cocorite

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 09:01:45 PM »
4 La Liga titles & 4 Copa Del Rey titles with Real

1 World Cup and 1 Euro Cup with Spain


Man get fired in 2004 after winning yet another La Liga title and making Real as dominant as they were in the days of Puskas and dem

Soon as he get fired....Real couldn't win nutting fuh years.

He win CL, UEFA Cup, all kinda success.  Special one and dem want nutting wit he.  If Pep could duplicate the kinda success that Del Bosque has enjoyed.....it would be indeed special.

I remember back in de day Stephen Hart used to tell me that Del Bosque was a boss and I used to counter and say .."well anybody could win wit dem kinda players he had".  Dem days, Real had de Galacticos with Ronaldo, Zidane, Roberto Carlos, Raul etc.  But dat same team couldn't win when he wasn't coach.

Gotta give Del Bosque he props.  Is there a better coach out there?  Fergie has longevity but only at club level. 

Pep has won everything in sight with his worst finish to date being 2nd in La Liga and CL semi finalist.

Capello, Lippi, Low, etc all have wonderful records....but seemingly not close to Del Bosque

Mourinho would be up there but again...he hasn't coached a national team.

I could think of Big Phil with Brazil.  World cup and domestic winner.  Maybe that's Del Bosque's only competition?

Tactically, Del Bosque is a master.  Yuh realize he play practically the whole tournament WITHOUT an out and out striker?  Fabergas play what they refer to as a false 9....basically a withdrawn striker.  But we all know Fabergas eh no striker.  But it certainly help to confuise defenders because they not sure who to pick up.  Every move Del Bosque make this tournament was a master stroke and Italy were helpless today.  Not often you can say that about the Italians.

Waxing eolquent dey, Palos. Waxing eloquent. Good points.
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 06:44:41 AM »
Well the results shows that his team win. So we should conclude that he is the "best" national team coach at present. But Iwould say that he is as good as the players that Barcelona produced for him. The very essence and core of the spanish magic is the play of Barca. No Barca no championship.

Offline Observer

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 06:57:43 AM »
Well the results shows that his team win. So we should conclude that he is the "best" national team coach at present. But Iwould say that he is as good as the players that Barcelona produced for him. The very essence and core of the spanish magic is the play of Barca. No Barca no championship.

Deeks you could say the same for Zagalo ( Santos core), Lippi, Berzot (Juventus core) and Helmut Schoen ( Bayern Munich core). The team still has to be selected, formed & perform. Many coaches in the same situation  under achieved. Early in the tournament when Spain were not clicking, the pundits were very critical, now they saying the best team of all time. Ramos, Silva, Cassilas, Alba, Alonso, Navas were critical to Spain's performances & they are not Barca.
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Offline KND2

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 07:53:34 AM »
Del Bosque is ok,

He is basically transplanting what Barca does to the national team.

the real coach is Cruff he invented it and out barca and spain where they are now.

If Del Bosque go and coach england and get them to win a title then I can say he is a master.

Spain not really playing any great football. in fact the Euro as a whole was sub par.

Spain is the best at possesion and that puts them in position to win every game.

what they did is great over teh last 6 years


but nothing they are doing is revolutionary spain, it is more like revolutionary barca and spain are the benefactors.

But Real Beat them last year so expect both barca and spain to decline and a new dynasty to rise.

It was nice to watch all the while.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 12:00:53 PM »
Observer, how much of Aragones has del Bosque "preserved" in the national team since he took over. What elements has he changed?

Offline Observer

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 12:13:46 PM »
Observer, how much of Aragones has del Bosque "preserved" in the national team since he took over. What elements has he changed?

KND What a croc!

Really you have to ask? No Senna, Puyol, Capdevilla, Villa, Marchena, Sergio Garcia, Cazorla, Guiza. Should I go on.

When Argones won he had 3 Barca players!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 12:15:28 PM by Observer »
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 02:56:23 PM »
Observer, how much of Aragones has del Bosque "preserved" in the national team since he took over. What elements has he changed?

KND What a croc!

Really you have to ask? No Senna, Puyol, Capdevilla, Villa, Marchena, Sergio Garcia, Cazorla, Guiza. Should I go on.

When Argones won he had 3 Barca players!

In asking the question, I was inquiring about his tactical preferences compared to Aragones, rather than the personnel aspect. But since we on that ... people should consider where the concentration of Spanish national talent is to be found in La Liga. Even a Real man like Del Bosque can see that Real is underwhelmingly represented in this way. Anyway, I view the 'national team is just another Barca' argument as too simplistic to really merit significant discourse.

I think several ppl see the tiki-taca movement of the ball, remain fixated on that, but pay less attention to other aspects of the game that have come through in the Del Bosque period. (As I write this my mind goes back to Aragones' criticisms of Del Bosque a couple years ago. To his credit, Del Bosque demonstrated great restraint in not making that a public spat.) Spain has accomplished again, but not quite in the same way.

I think it speaks volumes for Del Bosque that he has managed to meet the high expectations held by the RFEF in coming in to replace Aragones and gone on to establish a standard of excellence and achievement (regardless of the manner in which he has achieved the success) in his own right. That cyah be taken away from him.

I appreciate his body of work. But, fuh me he's not a definitive point of reference in world football, despite his successes.

I think he's an effective manager and accomplished coach with a vision of how he wants his teams to play. I think he's less of an ideologue than Rafa Benitez playing with a fixed idea. However, I also have not bought into the school of thought that he's a grand innovator in the scheme of the game. It could be that the man's humility is leading me to miss something.

4-6 has been deployed before. Why are folks seduced by it?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 03:01:11 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline Deeks

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 05:00:12 PM »
The first time i see Spain play was the 1978 WC in Argentina. The played Brazil and could have won the game. The game was fairly even. I was expecting more from them because of all the Real madrid reputation. The WC in Spain was one of the best WC and Spain struggled with Honduras and lost to NI. They were underachievers even when Johan was with Barca. I am not trying to denegrate the current Spain team. I think they damn fantastic. The last Euro team I saw play such "perfect" football was the Dutch 1974 team. Let's see how they do in Brazil and then we will 'bow" to them. I still say that Spain is Barca and Barca is Spain. All the other teams are on the outside looking for cobo sweat. Even Madrid players are supporting casts on that team.

Offline Observer

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 07:31:13 PM »
Observer, how much of Aragones has del Bosque "preserved" in the national team since he took over. What elements has he changed?

KND What a croc!

Really you have to ask? No Senna, Puyol, Capdevilla, Villa, Marchena, Sergio Garcia, Cazorla, Guiza. Should I go on.

When Argones won he had 3 Barca players!

In asking the question, I was inquiring about his tactical preferences compared to Aragones, rather than the personnel aspect. But since we on that ... people should consider where the concentration of Spanish national talent is to be found in La Liga. Even a Real man like Del Bosque can see that Real is underwhelmingly represented in this way. Anyway, I view the 'national team is just another Barca' argument as too simplistic to really merit significant discourse.

I think several ppl see the tiki-taca movement of the ball, remain fixated on that, but pay less attention to other aspects of the game that have come through in the Del Bosque period. (As I write this my mind goes back to Aragones' criticisms of Del Bosque a couple years ago. To his credit, Del Bosque demonstrated great restraint in not making that a public spat.) Spain has accomplished again, but not quite in the same way.

I think it speaks volumes for Del Bosque that he has managed to meet the high expectations held by the RFEF in coming in to replace Aragones and gone on to establish a standard of excellence and achievement (regardless of the manner in which he has achieved the success) in his own right. That cyah be taken away from him.

I appreciate his body of work. But, fuh me he's not a definitive point of reference in world football, despite his successes.

I think he's an effective manager and accomplished coach with a vision of how he wants his teams to play. I think he's less of an ideologue than Rafa Benitez playing with a fixed idea. However, I also have not bought into the school of thought that he's a grand innovator in the scheme of the game. It could be that the man's humility is leading me to miss something.

4-6 has been deployed before. Why are folks seduced by it?

This I agree with! For me there has been very little tactical vision in football for many years now and the difference when all things are equal is individual genius. Jacque, Scholari, Lippi. Argones, Del Bosque, Fergie, Mourinho, Hiddink none of them introduced anything revolutionary in football. Barca are a revelation, though their football per say is not new (since 89>), they simply have had a collection of genius players, the likes of Laudrup, Romario, Koeman ----- Ronaldinho, Eto,----Messi, Iniesta, Xavi that fit into a paticular footballing philosophy.
What DelBosque has created is a balanced team and utilize his players very well, some will argue he has made Spain even more solid defensively ( who am I to argue with that). He is and remains a brilliant man manager & though many deny it, tactically very aware. Just look how he planned for Italy from game 1 to game 2, took away the brilliance of Pirlo and introduced a more penetrative quicker style of play in the final. One that caught not only Italy, but most of the pundits by surprise.
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Offline dinho

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 08:18:34 PM »

I think several ppl see the tiki-taca movement of the ball, remain fixated on that, but pay less attention to other aspects of the game that have come through in the Del Bosque period. (As I write this my mind goes back to Aragones' criticisms of Del Bosque a couple years ago. To his credit, Del Bosque demonstrated great restraint in not making that a public spat.) Spain has accomplished again, but not quite in the same way.[/b]

I'm curious to know... What exactly are these other aspects that have come through in the Del Bosque period that people pay less attention to?
         

Offline dinho

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 08:54:24 PM »
I rate Del Bosque and I believe he deserves every success he get in football, especially after what he went through with Real Madrid.. I used to enjoy watching the galacticos under Del Bosque (who wouldn't), but that year when they get rid of Del Bosque and Makalele turn me off of that club completely.

Personally, I don't see Del Bosque as a coach to be any big time tactician or innovator.. He isn't one of these coaches like a Mourinho, Guardiola or Bielsa who obsess over tactics and formations, spend inhumane hours researching opposition and using technology and in depth preparation to gain their advantage.

Del Bosque is an old school coach and his biggest asset is his ability to manage big personalities and egos. Don't forget came into this tournament with a Spain team more divided than ever because of a Real Madrid - Barcelona rivalry that has taken a turn for the uglier. Yuh see how he was able to smooth over those cracks and get everyone clicking for one another - THAT, I give him props for.

But why nobody aint talk bout what Del Bosque was winning between the Real exit and the Spain appointment?

What Del Bosque is, is an extremely smart and patient coach who makes great decisions because he knows to go with what works and abandon what doesn't, and he does not overcomplicate it. He plays it simple.

Lets not be mistaken, that Spain side is basically Barcelona with Real Madrid and a few sundry players filling in the positions that Barca don't have covered. Without the injuries, Puyol and Villa wouldve been starting ahead of Arbeloa and Torres/Fabregas. Another coach might have taken the political route and tried to squeeze ahead some more players from outside Barca, but Barca is what works. A big core of the national team play have been playing together for years and know each other's games inside out.

All this talk about this whole "false 9", no forward formation.. That wasn't no master tactical innovation to talk about... The ONLY reason Del Bosque come out with that is because he didn't have a forward he could hang his hat on.. He doesn't trust Torres (and rightly so). Llorente, while he is an excellent forward in great form, doesn't really fit the type of football Spain play (he is moreless there to provide and aerial option if a more direct route is needed). Negredo is a relative rookie on the team and after that Spain doesn't have international calibre strikers.... So Del Bosque figure, "lemme just play a next midfielder in there to help keep possession yes, the goals will come".

The funny thing is, i doh even find that system was all that.. Most of the times, Fabregas not getting that ball anywhere in the channels and have to come back deep on top the box to get it.. Defences was finding it easy to crowd them out and they wasn't creating no big setta chances. No option to spring a ball over the top or cross a ball from the wing. The only thing that system enable was for Spain to keep more of the ball, but in less dangerous areas. In the final, they open up Italy not because of that formation but because Italy gave them less respect and were more adventurous than everyone else in trying to attack them and left more space than any other team in the tournament.

Side note...

As for KND saying that Del Bosque is not the real coach because he transplanted what was at Barca... Keep in mind that Guardiola transplanted what was taught by Cruyff and Rexach.. And Cruyff and Rexach transplanted what was taught by Rinus Michels... Taking a successful model and implementing it is no skin off Del Bosque's back.

         

Offline just cool

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 09:37:59 PM »
Yes, his name is jose! ;)
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Offline jai john

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 09:24:55 AM »
Questions of who is/was the best player or coach will always arise ... For me present day football tactics  will soon mirror those of Spain ..and why not ? everyone follows a winner ! We have seen a change already even during the last season where Man City, Chelsea, Swansea etc. ,in " boom kick ' England, were trying to keep possession and score from a position of strength... a long way from the system heavily guided  by two linesmen and air traffic control !

I left out man United because Sir Alex had already confirmed what I have just written when he commented that the Barcelona system was the best in world football. So united had already been making adjustments to their football and type of recruits in the recent past .

For me Pep guardiola rates very highly in any best coaches discussion   having  transformed European football by Barcelona domination over the last few years ever since he took over a sliding Barcelona after the Rijkard- Ronaldinho hiatus. Pep took largely the same team and made the viewing audience change the way they appreciated how great teams were constructed...there was no need for the power forward ...so Ibra was surplus to requirements ...the dominant defensive ( makele/Viera/ type ) player was replaced in the mind set by the swift mobile unit of quick thought and feet players ...Xavi, iniesta, Messi,etc. they can all close you down and in very short order. Possession was the name of the game.
Teamplay  became the focus rather than the maximum player , so much so that Messi is only now proving to the world for sure , that he can exist outside of the Barcelona system. ( this is not new however as it formed the basis for the Brazilian style which has seen them win so many Wcups ) " if we have it you cant score to quote one brazilian coach " ... funny how england's new coach is against that ... guess they will remain in the football wilderness even longer now ..

Del bosque also has my greatest respect for the way he was able to improve spanish footballing fortunes ..yes improve because he has the option of combining the best Spain has to offer ( barcelona and Real madrid ), on this philosophy. He never tried to change the way the Barcelona players on the squad played instead bringing in the others to fit a tried and proven system.

I wonder how the madrid heirachy feels now ..they would have to admit that the coach they fired beacuse he was not a " big name coach " even after he won La liga and showed the world the galacticos , has now become the cornerstone of Spanish and I daresay world football.

Those two are in a tussle in my mind but i am leaning to the initiator rather than the perfector in this one.

Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 05:42:13 PM »
The best figure head, caretaker, puppet coach...YES by all means he have dat TITLE down pat. Jamaal Shabazz and all woulda take dat Cup given dat squad.

Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 05:50:40 PM »
Just look how he planned for Italy from game 1 to game 2, took away the brilliance of Pirlo and introduced a more penetrative quicker style of play in the final. One that caught not only Italy, but most of the pundits by surprise. Observer.

........................................................................

Crapaud smoke Italy Pipe when dey did not come back with the 3-5-2 dat gave Spain problems in their prior meeting. It was not a brilliant move by Del Bosque that did anything but rather an Italian mistake. Dat 4-1-3-2 formation work against Germany but not against a team that pressures so high up the field. Spain's line of confrontation is a little higher than most teams. Pirlo could not do the same things he did in the 1-1 draw.

Offline palos

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 06:11:32 PM »
The best figure head, caretaker, puppet coach...YES by all means he have dat TITLE down pat. Jamaal Shabazz and all woulda take dat Cup given dat squad.

Just look how he planned for Italy from game 1 to game 2, took away the brilliance of Pirlo and introduced a more penetrative quicker style of play in the final. One that caught not only Italy, but most of the pundits by surprise. Observer.

........................................................................

Crapaud smoke Italy Pipe when dey did not come back with the 3-5-2 dat gave Spain problems in their prior meeting. It was not a brilliant move by Del Bosque that did anything but rather an Italian mistake. Dat 4-1-3-2 formation work against Germany but not against a team that pressures so high up the field. Spain's line of confrontation is a little higher than most teams. Pirlo could not do the same things he did in the 1-1 draw.

All dah time & effort yuh spend, all de rain yuh take,  and de cold yuh endure gettin coachin certificate and yuh ass STILL eh learn a forkane ting!  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 11:44:09 PM »
Youself Palos. De King of Spain must be call de man and say, "Ey doh kill de goose dey dat lay de golden eggs, otherwise we go cut off yuh cell phone so yuh cyah get no more advice from Pep de night before de game."  ;)

Offline Big Magician

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 12:06:41 AM »
de bess coach is Otto Pfister... he invented the "False 9"...even named him...Captain
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Offline fitzinho

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 08:50:16 AM »
de bess coach is Otto Pfister... he invented the "False 9"...even named him...Captain
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Offline palos

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »
Youself Palos. De King of Spain must be call de man and say, "Ey doh kill de goose dey dat lay de golden eggs, otherwise we go cut off yuh cell phone so yuh cyah get no more advice from Pep de night before de game."  ;)

 ;D
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2012, 09:39:32 AM »

I think several ppl see the tiki-taca movement of the ball, remain fixated on that, but pay less attention to other aspects of the game that have come through in the Del Bosque period. (As I write this my mind goes back to Aragones' criticisms of Del Bosque a couple years ago. To his credit, Del Bosque demonstrated great restraint in not making that a public spat.) Spain has accomplished again, but not quite in the same way.[/b]

I'm curious to know... What exactly are these other aspects that have come through in the Del Bosque period that people pay less attention to?


Good question, dinho. Lehwe start with this clip.

To build on the observation, I decided to solicit video support so that everyone has visual confirmation. However, the truth is ... this clip only addresses part of the transition from Aragones to Del Bosque ... and it harks back to a time when some in Spain were "unconvinced" about Del Bosque and dahis why I've gone back in time ... because it's easy to praise success after the results are in, but to be objectively questioning of a process before the success is realised is another.

http://www.lasexta.com/sextatv/futbol/las_diferencias_entre_aragones_y_del_bosque/279471/81

The action gets going @ 0:37. Before that is unimportant Barca chat  :devil:.

I've summarised the key points below so ppl can follow and interpret the significance for themselves.

Clip begins by Del Bosque saying he didn't know whether there was much that had changed as a result of him taking over from Aragones. Commentary disagrees somewhat.

Commentary observes that

1. Aragones' utilisation of "un solo pivote" (Senna) v. Del Bosque's utilisation of two (doble pivote) created a different configuration in the attack.

I don't recall Del Bosque tinkering with that immediately ... anyway, it received Aragones' endorsement/concession in the clip.

2. Another point made [@ 1:14] is Aragones' use of Ramos and Capdevila on the flanks and how their freedom up the flanks, accompanied by short passes in squeezed space in the middle, was an attacking tenet of that team. In the clip, we see 4 defending players about to be beaten by a simple pass played in by Senna, and a tidy turn to goal.

3. The clip shows Navas isolated on the right side of the field (in the recent Euro we saw him deployed there to some effect). Yet, at the point in time that this report was made ... the criticism floated was that play was too direct, too predictable, and under-elaborated (the defender cutting out the cross or the easily read attempt on goal) .... an additional critique was that Navas' injection cut off the fwd movement of the flank play once provided by Ramos/Capdevila.

4. Next thing discussed is rapid playing of the ball to feet out wide, with an immediate look inside for an option on goal ... basically if the initial quickly attempted finish didn't pay off, there was the prospect of a rebound falling at the feet of the fwd ...

5. There's also a critique of striking the right balance for other players to combine with and around Iniesta as the Del Bosque era had growing pains.

The best thing in the clip might be the eye candy. ;)

Offline kicker

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2012, 11:24:06 AM »
Really difficult to measure and pick apart a manager's quality by merely watching the end product on TV.
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Offline Observer

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2012, 12:59:28 PM »
Really difficult to measure and pick apart a manager's quality by merely watching the end product on TV.


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Offline dinho

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »

I think several ppl see the tiki-taca movement of the ball, remain fixated on that, but pay less attention to other aspects of the game that have come through in the Del Bosque period. (As I write this my mind goes back to Aragones' criticisms of Del Bosque a couple years ago. To his credit, Del Bosque demonstrated great restraint in not making that a public spat.) Spain has accomplished again, but not quite in the same way.[/b]

I'm curious to know... What exactly are these other aspects that have come through in the Del Bosque period that people pay less attention to?


Good question, dinho. Lehwe start with this clip.

To build on the observation, I decided to solicit video support so that everyone has visual confirmation. However, the truth is ... this clip only addresses part of the transition from Aragones to Del Bosque ... and it harks back to a time when some in Spain were "unconvinced" about Del Bosque and dahis why I've gone back in time ... because it's easy to praise success after the results are in, but to be objectively questioning of a process before the success is realised is another.

http://www.lasexta.com/sextatv/futbol/las_diferencias_entre_aragones_y_del_bosque/279471/81

The action gets going @ 0:37. Before that is unimportant Barca chat  :devil:.

I've summarised the key points below so ppl can follow and interpret the significance for themselves.

Clip begins by Del Bosque saying he didn't know whether there was much that had changed as a result of him taking over from Aragones. Commentary disagrees somewhat.

So Del Bosque himself admits that he didn't change much after Aragones, but some run of the mill commentators claim to know more than the man who coaching the team himself and we running with that??  Okaaaay....   ::)

Commentary observes that

1. Aragones' utilisation of "un solo pivote" (Senna) v. Del Bosque's utilisation of two (doble pivote) created a different configuration in the attack.

This is not really a fundamental change, the essential system and structure of the team remained the same. Senna may have been the only player on that Aragones team that was a pure defensive midfielder by trade, but he had help in Xavi and Xabi Alonso who do not play very far forward in that system. Xavi also retreats deep to pick up the ball and Xabi Alonso stays put especially when Spain played Torres and Villa together. In addition, when Aragones played Villa on his own up front it meant that Spain was running a midfield 5.

Under Del Bosque, Senna was phased out (prematurely imo) in favor of Busquets.. But this was merely a change of personnel, and imo most probably done to wholesale import the Barcelona midfield as alluded to before. Busquets cyah tie Senna shoelace!


I don't recall Del Bosque tinkering with that immediately ... anyway, it received Aragones' endorsement/concession in the clip.

2. Another point made [@ 1:14] is Aragones' use of Ramos and Capdevila on the flanks and how their freedom up the flanks, accompanied by short passes in squeezed space in the middle, was an attacking tenet of that team. In the clip, we see 4 defending players about to be beaten by a simple pass played in by Senna, and a tidy turn to goal.

I'm not sure what the point is here. Ramos was Real Madrid's right back during the Aragones era, the best right back in Spain and consequently the best option available to Aragones. His deputy was Puyol playing out of position. On the left similarly, Capdevila at Villareal was the best left back in Spain at the time as Spain had a relative dearth of talent in the wing back positions (Barca was running Abidal/Alves/Silvinho all non-nationals).  Fast forward to today and only the personnel has changed not the way they play. The only reason Ramos did not play right back at Euro 2012 was because Puyol was injured, so he moved central and opened up a spot for Arbeloa.  A simple change of personnel can hardly be counted as a new idea or innovation of Del Bosque's.

3. The clip shows Navas isolated on the right side of the field (in the recent Euro we saw him deployed there to some effect). Yet, at the point in time that this report was made ... the criticism floated was that play was too direct, too predictable, and under-elaborated (the defender cutting out the cross or the easily read attempt on goal) .... an additional critique was that Navas' injection cut off the fwd movement of the flank play once provided by Ramos/Capdevila.

What this has to do with anything is anyone's guess.

4. Next thing discussed is rapid playing of the ball to feet out wide, with an immediate look inside for an option on goal ... basically if the initial quickly attempted finish didn't pay off, there was the prospect of a rebound falling at the feet of the fwd ...

Wow... tactical genius.  ::)

5. There's also a critique of striking the right balance for other players to combine with and around Iniesta as the Del Bosque era had growing pains.

Busquets and Xavi been combining with Iniesta since they were children at the La Masia. Xabi Alonso playing with Iniesta since Aragones was coach.  What is it that Del Bosque did to strike this elusive right balance that was missing all the long?

The best thing in the clip might be the eye candy. ;)


Sorry eh.... But 2 essays later and you've said a whole lot of absolutely nothing. That was painful reading, and in future it would help if you could familiarize yourself with the art of precis.

It's one of my pet peeves when people cannot simply talk the football on their own strength, based on their own observations and opinions, but instead defer to someone else's interpretation as if that supposed to hold more water.

I ask for your opinion on what Del Bosque introduced to Spain that was so different from what was there before, you gone google up some video clip of some commentators who I have no care for and probably look at less football than you and I individually to try to make it look like you even knew what you were talking about.... And all you did is achieve the opposite effect.

I was interested in your opinion.. Seeing as you could make a bold enough statement that Del Bosque introduced new ideas that us average armchair viewers were missing, i thought you saw something we didn't.  Here I was waiting for enlightment and that is the best you could offer up?





         

Offline elan

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2012, 03:25:48 PM »
Go easy eh Seeker   :devil:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2012, 05:07:04 PM »
I made it clear that these were introductory comments and that the footage is merely a reference point to discussing the matter at hand. Indeed, in my second line, I not only state that the clip IMV is incomplete ... I also explain why I posted the link. Prior to maybe 10 minutes before posting, I had never seen that footage, but it served a basic purpose pertinent to the discussion.

My view regarding "personnel" is addressed in a response to Observer. Mention of Ramos and Capdevila has less to do with "who" is involved but moreso with "what" they were charged with doing. I think the arrival and freedom of Jordi Alba underscores that other personnel can do de wuk, albeit incorporated into an attack differently.

In part, this discussion is about the evolution of Del Bosque at the helm of Spain. So far, on this thread I've made only general statements about the man's tactical disposition (one of them expressly states that he's not a grand innovator). What I'm yet to comment on is where I see him as having achieved a different nuclearity with some of the same cadre of players. But again, even though Casillas, Ramos, Torres, Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, and Fabregas were all on the field at the end of the 2008 final and at the final of Euro 2012, it's obvious that Spain played differently. That's the first part of what I will comment on. And, Spain under Del Bosque has not played all of its football in one trademark manner  ... and that's the second part of what I will comment on. Aragones (as with Benitez whom I mentioned as an ideologue (IMO!) showed a penchant that was more fixed. Del Bosque has been more adaptable.

The footage has a comparator of Spain at Euro 2008 and Spain at the WC 2010. The sophistication of the Spanish public as football consumers is what generates pieces like this in Spanish media. Put another way, it is not the sort of presentation that one might find in a sports clip in many football countries. The main relevance of the clip was to underscore that there was a common understanding that a difference in approach proceeded from Aragones to Del Bosque. Aragones himself acknowledges this. Del Bosque's humility and diplomacy lead him to answer as he did ... at the end of the day, even if he says "I dunno if iz different" ... People can tell on their own.

And he knows it. Don't hang yuh hat on anything different.

The deficiency in this exercise is that of the footage not being in English such that individuals could glean more on their own.

I am yet to bring the added piece to the discussion. That much is obvious. I have a perspective and will share it, but it lies more in subtlety on Del Bosque's part than in anything remotely revolutionary. I made that clear and I'm making it clear again now. You seem to have expected more ... yet that iz subtleties we dealing with rather than grand innovation was distilled early in the thread.

When I express opinions on this forum, there are mine. Where I refer to a perspective, I provide attribution and openly state the source. Everything I comment on tactically is mine exclusively.

Due to professional commitments, I am unable to pick this up before July 29. 


Offline elan

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Re: Is there a better coach than Del Bosque?
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2012, 10:27:24 PM »
I made it clear that these were introductory comments and that the footage is merely a reference point to discussing the matter at hand. Indeed, in my second line, I not only state that the clip IMV is incomplete ... I also explain why I posted the link. Prior to maybe 10 minutes before posting, I had never seen that footage, but it served a basic purpose pertinent to the discussion.

My view regarding "personnel" is addressed in a response to Observer. Mention of Ramos and Capdevila has less to do with "who" is involved but moreso with "what" they were charged with doing. I think the arrival and freedom of Jordi Alba underscores that other personnel can do de wuk, albeit incorporated into an attack differently.

In part, this discussion is about the evolution of Del Bosque at the helm of Spain. So far, on this thread I've made only general statements about the man's tactical disposition (one of them expressly states that he's not a grand innovator). What I'm yet to comment on is where I see him as having achieved a different nuclearity with some of the same cadre of players. But again, even though Casillas, Ramos, Torres, Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, and Fabregas were all on the field at the end of the 2008 final and at the final of Euro 2012, it's obvious that Spain played differently. That's the first part of what I will comment on. And, Spain under Del Bosque has not played all of its football in one trademark manner  ... and that's the second part of what I will comment on. Aragones (as with Benitez whom I mentioned as an ideologue (IMO!) showed a penchant that was more fixed. Del Bosque has been more adaptable.


I Think that is what many people casually glossing over.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

 

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