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Offline chinee boi

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2012, 03:47:15 PM »
The Toronto Star has it in Kingston, Jamaica  ;D

We off the hook!

Offline Bamboo Prince

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2012, 05:02:54 PM »
The Toronto Star has it in Kingston, Jamaica  ;D

We off the hook!

We off the hook? ???  More like you off yuh leash mih boy, the reporter was filin his report from Kingston.

Offline pecan

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2012, 05:13:40 PM »
Hundreds of baby turtles killed in botched earth works but...
Rondon happy with work at Grande Riviere.
By: Cherisse Moe (Trinidad Guardian).


Earth works to realign the Grande Riviere river to prevent soil erosion has caused the death of hundreds of baby leatherback turtles. The river has been blocked and rerouted but at a great cost to the turtle population which is the focus of ecotourism in the area.

CEO of the Environmental Management Authority (EMA) Dr Joth Singh says the EMA did its best to help save the turtles of Grande Riviere, although hundreds were killed during excavation to re-route the river over the weekend. The work brought relief to Grande Riviere residents whose properties were being threatened by the river, which had changed its direction  from south to west,eroding the beach. The re-routing came at a huge cost. Hundreds of turtles and hatchlings were destroyed.  Singh was on his way to Grande Riviere to assess the damage when contacted yesterday morning. He said despite receiving guidance last week from Piero Guerrini, owner of the Mt Plaisir Estate Hotel, whose property was being threatened, the Ministry of Works crew who carried out the work did not follow directions. “The intent of re-routing the river was to prevent further damage and protect the rest of the beach, where there are still turtle nests, and also to save properties,” he said. “It's unfortunate that intervention was not done in the proper fashion. “But the damage has been done. I’m interested in seeing the condition of the hatchlings which were recovered, to see what we can do.”

Singh said while he could not speak for other ministries and agencies which Guerrini had previously contacted for help, the EMA moved quickly to rectify the problem. “He spoke to the EMA on Wednesday and we were there on Thursday, and work began over the weekend,” Singh said. However, Guerrini, who described the situation as an environmental travesty, said the crew that did the work did more harm than good.

CBC Radio (Canada's National Broadcaster)  just aired an interview with Dr. Joth Singh on "As It Happens". He sang a completely different story that what was quoted in this article.



He stated that "only about 200 hatchlings" were lost but had they "not intervened", as many as "1,000,000 eggs would have been lost" in other areas of the beach. The eggs that are being reported as being lost were already "spoilt" by the heavy waters.  He said there was a smell of rotting eggs in the area that was being excavated indicating that the eggs were already lost.

When challenged by the interviewer about the discrepancy between his numbers and the 20,000 being reported, he said that perhaps these advocacy groups was using this incident "to get their voices heard".

When asked about the hotel, he made it sound like the intervention had nothing to do with the hotel and the intervention was to address the danger to the remaining eggs in the area.  This is contrary to what he was quoted as saying above.

Phrases in quotes is what I remember him saying exactly. the rest is paraphrased. Please feel free to correct my errors after listen to the actual interview (posted below)

He sounded like he was spinning a good story.

Here is the link to As it Happens podcast.  Fast forward about 10:22 for the interview. It is the second interview in the broadcast.


Trinidad Turtles Crushed. The CEO of the Trinidadian Environmental Management Authority tells us a botched river redirection killed far fewer hatchlings than the thousands environmentalists claim.


Audio Link follows:

http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2254950301,%202254951177
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Offline D.H.W

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2012, 05:50:06 PM »
To be fair 20,000 is alot I doubt it's that much. I know the beach like the back of my hand. The area by the river is only a small part of the long Beach, which contains even more eggs. But if it's 20000 or less, it still doesn't exuse the actions of those workers.
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Offline lefty

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2012, 05:57:52 PM »
we main problem is a people is we like lazy man shortcut business and we never like to accept responsibility for we actions when we do shit...........is spin spin spin lie lie lie....no matterc how much each piece of spin and lie contribute to d size of ass dey makin deyself out to be and dis gov't and gov't official more than any in d past seem to relish making asses of dey self............again.............steups........Ganga Singh and d EMA fella musbe vex dey ever open dey ass....um mouth :-\ ........
I pity the fool....

Offline dinho

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2012, 07:00:50 PM »
This was some really disturbing news, when I read this i felt sick to the stomach. This one really hit home for me.

The hotel owner, Pierro is a friend of the family and I visited last year around this time. The Mt. Plaisir hotel itself is a gem and the beach itself (for anyone who doesn't already know) is one of the world's premier turtle nesting grounds. The hotel plays an enormous part in protecting and preserving the beach and it was largely Pierro's vision to invest in the location and transform a relatively derelict old hotel into a premier facility. If the hotel was destroyed, infinitely greater than his loss it would have been Trinidad and Tobago's loss.

That's why I kinda upset that the angle this is being portrayed in the media is that the hotel owner ordered the excavation to selfishly protect his property. Absolute nonsense. Since last December (before turtle season which begins in March) the man trying to get them to come in and act before the nesting season and before it got worse... Plus his suggestion all the long was that the river be re-routed from lower down near the mouth not where they excavated. (See pictures below).

I really don't understand what the ministry or whosoever idiots was in charge of this project was thinking to run up there gung ho with excavators without any kinda consultation or due diligence. Is since December last year that river re-route and threatening to erode the hotel as well as the nesting area in front, yet they wait till the height of the turtle season to get moving. Furthermore, anyone could have foreseen the fallout of going this route without planning with the relevant authorities. Most trinidadians are passionate about the turtles, just look at the outcry from that dotish woman who was riding the leatherback. This was just slackness and negligence of the highest order.

The Grand Riviere beach should be a national heritage site. What we have up there is a tourist destination all by itself and its only because it is not marketed better that we don't have more nature seeking tourists from all over the world flocking up there around this time of the year. Up to about 7-10 years ago, for reasons yet to be determined, the beach started experiencing a boom in the leatherback turtle population nesting during the season. When I went up when I was younger, you woulda be glad to see 4 or 5 turtles come ashore on that beach in a night, nowadays scores of leatherbacks favor the beach every night to the point where there is no space left on the beach for nesting. Turtles digging up old nests and laying over them, turtles getting in each other's way.

There are different theories as to why turtles have been coming there, from climate change to currents to predators or inhospitable environments on other nesting grounds around the world... But many have also speculated that the major conservation efforts in place here have had a part to play. Over the years, the turtle conservation people here have been doing an amazing job to preserve and protect the beaches to make it hospitable for the turtles.. They working hard every night and day to protect the turtles from predators, environmental effects and the biggest threat - humans.

To be honest, through this incident I feel it for them the most because for all their efforts and hard work, the negative international publicity makes it look like we down here have no regard for the turtles and the environment.

Anyway, to provide some perspective I uploaded some pics my parents took on their visit a couple weeks ago to show where the river was re-routed and threatening the hotel.


This is what the beachfront location of the hotel looked like prior to the river redirecting. The sand in front was available nesting ground.:




River course changed and running in front of the hotel. You can see how close the front area is to being eroded into the river, and some of the foundation was already lost.







Fishermen push a boat up the river in front the hotel





River course should have been changed from the mouth of the river all the way upstream where turtles do not go (where the palm tree is in the distance):





High tide you can see the entire beach front nesting area covered:





Children swing from a tree above. The drop from the edge of the hotel into the river is more than 6ft deep:







         

Offline D.H.W

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2012, 07:43:40 PM »
Wayy things get rel bad up there. All that was sand before
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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2012, 08:56:22 PM »
Well, I can confirm that in November the beach looked as it is in the photo. I bet one of the problems in delaying work was attitude towards a foreigner kicking up a fuss. Ideally, there should have been meetings at the hotel to discuss the problem and rectify it properly, with little disruption.

Its a beautiful spot, and one that many Trin is I've spoken to haven't enjoyed. (That's no slight on Trinis, there's many places in UK I've never visited when Trinis have!)

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 10:58:18 PM »
The Hotel is pretty close to the beach though.

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 11:04:03 PM »
The Hotel is pretty close to the beach though.

I think its fair to say that the hotel is ON the beach! Not sure if the current owner built it, but it seemed to me its been there a while.

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 11:08:58 PM »
yeash looks older, sad the whole thing, man making a good clean living...and then this.

Offline chinee boi

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2012, 01:12:17 AM »
The Toronto Star has it in Kingston, Jamaica  ;D

We off the hook!

We off the hook? ???  More like you off yuh leash mih boy, the reporter was filin his report from Kingston.

Yuh ain't see that big smilie emoticon there!  There was sarcasm involved, ease up nah man!

Offline Pur_Trini

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2012, 03:49:53 AM »
The Hotel is pretty close to the beach though.

I think its fair to say that the hotel is ON the beach! Not sure if the current owner built it, but it seemed to me its been there a while.

The hotel has been there since 1983/84.  It was built by a family member of mine who ran it until the mid 1990s and then sold up to the present owner.  I spent a lot of time there as a teenager and judging from the pictures posted above the river has shifted course significantly since then.

Apparently in the early days of the hotel there were problems with the river and stone baskets were put in place to keep it at bay.  Clearly that solution was only ever going to be a temporary one.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:38:24 AM by Pur_Trini »
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Offline dinho

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2012, 06:03:52 AM »
         

Offline dinho

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2012, 06:06:57 AM »
Well, I can confirm that in November the beach looked as it is in the photo. I bet one of the problems in delaying work was attitude towards a foreigner kicking up a fuss. Ideally, there should have been meetings at the hotel to discuss the problem and rectify it properly, with little disruption.

Its a beautiful spot, and one that many Trin is I've spoken to haven't enjoyed. (That's no slight on Trinis, there's many places in UK I've never visited when Trinis have!)

I don't think that has anything to do with it as Pierro has been there for almost 20 years now and is not really a foreigner per se... The councillors and MPs for the area had also been trying in vain to get the ministry to come in and act..

I don't know if is bureacracy, politics or incompetence that caused the delay but it is a shame.
         

Offline Flex

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2012, 06:21:02 AM »
Tears of the turtles
T&T Newsday


Responding to the horrific event played out earlier this week at the most prolific nesting habitat for the critical endangered leatherback turtles where thousands of eggs and hatchlings were destroyed at what should have been a safe haven, a team comprising Gupte Lutchmedial, Nirmal Biptah, Lisa Ramkissoon-Maharaj and Richard Joseph from the Zoological Society of Trinidad and the Manatee Conservation Trust (MCT), involved in turtle protection at Manzanilla, visited the site to see first-hand what took place.

Lutchmedial, president of the Zoological Society of Trinidad and Tobago in an immediate reaction, exclaimed, “My organisation is in strong condemnation of what took place and it is unbelievable to see the extent of the losses to the leatherback turtle population at Grande Riviere.

This is something that we will be hard-pressed to explain to our international partners in conservation, including our friends from the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW) and the National Aquarium in Baltimore who have been bombarding me with their concerns.”

Lutchmedial said that ooking at the situation objectively, one cannot help but see the irony that the self-same “golden-goose” for the community and hoteliers in this area quickly became expendable, when their properties were threatened by what surely is a natural process. But most unbelievable of all is the justification being given for this uncaring, irresponsible and avoidable action by those in authority, entrusted to protect these helpless animals.

Richard Joseph, secretary of the MCT cannot believe that such a tragedy can be justified and lamented, “To hear the head of a state agency come out and openly say that nothing was wrong with the remedial works as only ‘hundreds’ of hatchlings were destroyed is nothing short of scandalous and a slap in the face for turtle conservationists who have laboured long and hard in the vineyards.” Overcome by his emotions, Joseph continued, “ It is high time that citizens stand up and demand that persons occupying well-paid jobs funded by our tax dollars carry out their duties with due diligence. In a first-world country, heads would be rolling today as persons would be held to account for this travesty.”

The Zoological Society group noted that TT is now the laughing-stock of the world, as with today’s technology, this incident has gone viral on the social network as well as featured by the conventional media including BBC, CNN and Fox News. John Seyjagat, curator at the National Aquarium in Baltimore in a wake-up call to TT cautioned, “Trinidad and Tobago has long been a country that was envied for its protection of turtles and known to have among the largest nesting population in the world at a single site, but overnight this site has turned into the largest graveyard for leatherback turtles. What a sad day for this country and a blot to its sterling reputation as a defender of turtles!”

Lutchmedial could not help but question, “In this time of crisis, where are the protesters who take up lesser causes? Where are our “welfarists” and animal behaviourists in this time of real need? Why the silence from the many guardians of the turtles? Now is the time for the Turtle Village Trust and the other community-based organisations which not only receive support from the Government and corporate sector for turtle protection, but also make a living from this resource to show their mettle and take a stand against this act of animal cruelty. Where are those who promote this country as an eco-tourism paradise?”

On the visit, the team met with Sherwin Ruiz and his group from the community, trying to salvage what little they could after the wanton destruction. President of the MCT, Ramkissoon-Maharaj, impressed by their efforts, urged, “Support is needed for this group, who like a David among Goliath is condemning this action and leading an on-site effort to save as many of the dug-up hatchlings as possible.” As for Ruiz himself, he said. “I had to stand by helplessly and look at this inhumane and uncaring act take place because a few buildings were threatened.

There are other measures which could have been taken to safeguard the buildings without jeopardising the future of this endangered animal.”

The few hatchlings that were collected by this group have since been released into the sea.

Lutchmedial, further questioned “Whose lives were threatened to such an extent that we had to destroy the future of this species repository in the thousands of destroyed eggs and hundreds of dead hatchlings? He continued, “The turtles have adapted to dealing with nature by laying thousands of eggs to ensure that at least one survives to adulthood, but faced with man’s intervention they are powerless.

When we reap the seeds of what we have sown here at Grande Riviere, I hope that it will not be too late.”

To make matters even worse, Biptah, curator at the Zoo pointed out the deleterious effects of the heavy equipment used in the operations for future emergence of hatchlings. Giving his viewpoint, he commented, “This excavator would have passed over many other nests and compacted the sand. It is therefore more than likely that these remaining hatchlings when they are ready would be unable to burrow their way out of those nests.”

Various persons have weighed in on alternatives to what took place and there is consensus that the situation could have been alleviated by the use of sand bags to stabilise the banks, even if this was temporary until the nesting season is over. Also, better coordination of the activity by relevant state agencies would have saved the eggs and hatchlings.

Community persons such as Ruiz and his group could have been called upon to remove eggs for relocation and hatchlings before the new course was cut.

Our “welfarists” and turtle protectors should have been on hand to assist in the delicate operations and avoid the disaster that transpired.

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Offline Mr Fix-it

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 07:53:34 AM »
Front page of Yahoo

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/turtle-eggs-crushed-trinidad-055423768.html

How much dey say dead again, 200??  Dat doh look like 200 to me nah
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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2012, 08:53:26 AM »
Front page of Yahoo

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/turtle-eggs-crushed-trinidad-055423768.html

How much dey say dead again, 200??  Dat doh look like 200 to me nah

Remember they sais that vultures had been eating them, and the sea may have washed some away. Also, they could have been scooped up or buried during the work. The most worrying aspect is that there could be hundreds more that hatch and unable to dig their way out of the compacted sand.

Offline Peong

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2012, 11:30:09 AM »
Apply a mortality rate to a population and you get a number, no mind reading necessary to understand that.
See that's where you went wrong, I not makin an argument.  Just stating something that nobody else mentioned. Ridiculous eh?

The only ostensible "point" yuh was trying to make is that most of these turtles would have died anyways, so the harm isn't as great as it's being made out to seem.  Good luck convincing yuhself that that line of thinking (since yuh not making any argument) has merit.

It's a fact and it shouldn't offend you. 

Offline Bakes

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2012, 11:36:25 AM »
It's a fact and it shouldn't offend you. 

LOL... doh flatter yuhself fella.  The fact that yuh talking shit doesn't in the least "offend" me.

Offline weary1969

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2012, 12:07:59 PM »
Tourism Minister: This must never ever happen again
Published: Wednesday, July 11, 2012

What happened at Grande Riviere beach where hundreds of turtles were killed in an effort to stop land slippage must never happen again. This was stated by Minister of Tourism Stephen Cadiz while speaking to reporters at the beach as several concerned government officials and residents gathered to get more information about the incident.

Over the weekend workers from the Ministry of Water and the Environment Drainage Division began work to divert a river in an effort to save several businesses which were threatened by erosion. In the process hundreds of leatherback turtle hatchlings and eggs were destroyed. The incident has not only attracted the attention of conservationists and environmentalist groups but several international media organisations.

Cadiz, along with a crew of government officials that included Minister of Water and the Environment Ganga Singh, yesterday visited the site to survey the work that was done and to see what still needs to be accomplished. Cadiz said that his ministry was very proud of the fact that the leatherback turtles had chosen Trinidad to lay their eggs.

“Obviously we are not very proud about what has happened here and we will be speaking to the right people, with the EMA, with the people in charge of beaches, coastal regions and get some expert advice as to how this thing will never ever happen again,” he said.

He described the beach as a crucial site for tourism in the country and stressed that he hoped it would never happen again and called the situation a “disaster.” Cadiz said there needed to be more research so that no other turtle nesting site would have to be destroyed in this manner.

He also said he believed that there was very little consultation on the project at Grande Riviere and that some mistakes may have been made. “If a huge error has been made in trying to fix a natural occurrence and we did it the wrong way for whatever reason, obviously we didn’t know what to expect and therefore I do not think we can continue with that,” he said.

Cadiz said it was a very “ticklish situation” as several things had to be taken into consideration when the decision was made. He said it was not a “nice learning curve.” Singh however defended his ministry’s decision even though he admitted that he believed the actions taken “could have been handled a bit more sensitively.”

“Well work has to continue because you are within the hurricane season and you would already recognise that this is not a really significant zone for laying of the turtle eggs and it is the area that they sought to protect,” he said. He said the fact the leatherback turtles chose this country to nest is a gift to the world and that in the past all efforts have been taken to protect the endangered species.

“It is not in the DNA of Trinidad and Tobago to endanger the leatherback turtle. It is in the DNA of the country to protect the leatherback turtle. That is our local obligation and that is our international obligation,” he said. He said his “newly minted” ministry would be making moves to help residents protect their sensitive ecosystem.

“Approximately 80 per cent of all leatherbacks in the world nest in Trinidad and Tobago so that therefore it is indeed a haven for the leatherback turtle. Therefore we need to provide a safe haven for the leatherback turtle,” he said. Singh also said the numbers of turtles killed were exaggerated and he does not feel that his ministry was in breach of any international treaties.

He said he was holding everybody responsible as the matter should have been handled more sensitively. The residents who had gathered were in support of the ministry’s action and said that it was the only appropriate way that it could have been handled.

“Three little hatchlings die, you see what going on here. The villagers fully in support of what going on. Turtles don’t lay here—any turtles that hatch here does die,” Kyle Charles said. He was amazed that the turtles had received so much media attention when the people of the village have been highlighting the issues they face for some time.

Another resident, Wilton James, who has been living at the beach for 45 years said he was very happy about the action taken and hoped that another river lower down the beach would be diverted in the same manner, as it was eroding the land that he and about five others were living on. “They only basing on turtles and turtles but not on human being,” he said.

 

He said the river had begun to cause trees to fall and he was really worried that he may lose his home. He urged Singh to follow him down the beach to see the nature of the destruction he faced. The team of officials then walked down the beach to survey all the erosion that the river had caused so far and what remedial work was needed still to prevent the entire village from being lost.
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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2012, 12:28:58 PM »
Turtle season is almost over. They could have implement a temporary measure in the interim, wait till the season over, then do their excavation works. Basic common sense. Ah swear Trinidad dont deserve this blessings of nature. We just full of shit sometimes
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Offline Dutty

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2012, 03:23:21 PM »
real nice pics dey dinho..really puts perspective as to how long the ministry ignoring that issue

The min of tourism should really take the reins on this one...do some kinda international mea culpa and spin this into a huge opportunity for future eco tourism

nobody budget could buy the kinda intl media exposure dey gettin right now
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Offline D.H.W

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2012, 04:51:52 PM »
Group: Turtle kill exaggerated
Thursday 12th July, 2012
 
A conservationist group says the local and global media were fed an inaccurate and sensationalised version of the events in Grande Riviere by persons not directly involved in the turtle conservation movement.
 
The Caribbean Institute of Sustainability, a group based in Port of Spain, issued a statement on the local event that has been making international headlines over the past few days.
 
President of the Caribbean Institute of Sustainability, Mr. Steven Greenleaf, said the fact that the turtle crushing incident has received such a passionate response from around the world is good news for the turtles. However he stated that much of what has been reported is simply untrue.
 
Mr. Greenleaf, an ecologist and natural resource conservationist, visited Grande Riviere, along with Government Ministers and other officials on Tuesday.
 
He said he spoke to villagers, members of the Grand Riviere Nature Tour Guide Association, biologists, conservationists, and fishermen.
 
He said certainly some viable hatchlings were killed and the best estimates given by turtle conservationists who were actually there, was between 100 and 200 hatchlings that were killed, not the "thousands," which were reported.
 
Mr. Greenleaf said when the Grande Riviere River changed its course west of its typical location, it left a narrow strip of beach, between the river and the waves, where leatherback turtles laid thousands of eggs over the last few months.
 
He said unfortunately, the majority of those nests became waterlogged, preventing the eggs from maturing and thousands of hatchlings never made it.
 
Mr. Greenleaf noted that if the river had continued on its new course into areas which support some of the highest densities of leatherback nests in the world, it would have also threatened those nests which were, and still are, successfully producing thousands of hatchlings.
 
The CIS President lamented while reckless sensationalism may sell stories, it does not help these endangered animals. He said rather, it does a great disservice to the dedicated people who have worked for years to protect them, usually without pay, often at real risk to their personal safety, and with precious little thanks.
 
Members of the environmental advocate group, Papa Bois Conservation, will be guests on CTV's First Up Programme on Friday morning discussing: A Proper Plan for Turtle Removal. Papa Bois Conservation first highlighted the excavation works at Grande Riviere that resulted in the destruction of Leatherback Turtle Hatchlings and Eggs.

http://www.ctntworld.com/LocalArticles.aspx?id=43624&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed
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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2012, 06:39:49 PM »
Wheeeeeyyyyy!!!!   :o :o

Thanks for the pics Dinho.  The situation now with the river is definitely different to what I saw a few years ago when I did the Turtle Watching thing......

Ah real sorry for the de turtles...... :'( :'(
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RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Bakes

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2012, 07:28:09 PM »
As I said elsewhere... Greenleaf talking a heaping pile of shit.  Whether the number was exaggerated or not I don't know, but how can this man come and say that the turtle hatchlings were already dead from an inundation of fresh water over the nesting area?  Did he perform a post-mortem to determine cause of death or is he just speculating?  And what of the turtles seen writhing among the survivors... the ones the AP reported clearly weren't going to survive?  Is fresh water inundation they was dying from and the signs of crushing just flesh wounds?  Why are there survivors among the dead anyways... the "fresh water inundation" decide to spare them?

He must think we is lettuce.

Offline Flex

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The real measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out.

Offline weary1969

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Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Jumbie

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Re: Turtle tragedy
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 05:41:44 AM »

 

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