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Author Topic: Racism in football Thread.  (Read 152160 times)

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Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1080 on: April 11, 2014, 10:20:21 AM »
Heard that there's no clause preventing Courtois from facing Chelsea ... if it came to that.

There is a clause but uefa have rubbished it and said if Chelsea tried to enforce it theyll face disciplinary action.
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Offline Sando

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1081 on: April 11, 2014, 10:28:17 AM »
Courtois could make Chelsea £5m from Champions League semi-final against Atletico.
By Matt Law (telegraph)


Atlético Madrid president says club will not pay clause fee to allow on-loan goalkeeper to face Chelsea should they be pitted against each other.

Chelsea goalkeeper Thibaut Courtois has not given up hope of playing for Atlético Madrid, the club with whom he is on loan, in the semi-finals of the Champions League if the sides are drawn together on Friday.

Telegraph Sport can reveal the full cost of Courtois's three seasons on loan at Chelsea could rise over £12 million if he plays against his parent club for Atlético in both legs of a semi-final.

Atlético president Enrique Cerezo has claimed the Spanish club "would be unable to pay" a clause understood to be in the loan agreement of Courtois that means Chelsea would be due £2.48 million for every game he plays against them.

Chelsea charged Atlético £800,000 to take Courtois on loan in 2011 and £2.48 million for his second season in Madrid. The Spaniards paid £4.13 million to take Courtois on loan for a third term.

Courtois was part of the Atlético team who beat Chelsea in the final of the Uefa Super Cup in 2012. It is believed that prompted Chelsea to insert a clause into his latest deal that means the La Liga club must also pay for the Belgian to play against his parent club.

Chelsea have already made a profit on the £7 million they spent to sign Courtois from Belgian club Genk in 2011, before loaning him out. Chelsea insist Courtois would be free to play against them in the Champions League and the decision over his selection would be down to Atlético and the player, but the Stamford Bridge club refused to discuss the nature of the player's loan contract.

Atlético's financial situation makes them reliant on loans and third-party cash injections, which has raised suspicions that Cerezo has pleaded poverty over a potential £4.96 million Champions League appearance fee to try to attract further investment.

Courtois is in negotiations over a new long-term Chelsea contract that could be used as a bargaining tool over any loan clause.

Chelsea will bid for Atlético striker Diego Costa at the end of the season and may offer to write off any outstanding appearance fees on Courtois to bring the price down.

This is not the first time there has been a potential clash between an on-loan player and his parent club in the Champions League.

In the 2003-04 season, Real Madrid loaned Fernando Morientes to Monaco without a clause to prevent him playing against them. He scored twice in the quarter-finals to help knock Real out and finished top scorer.

Uefa rules stop a club banning a player from playing against another team, but there is nothing to stop what the Spanish refer to as a ‘fear clause' that means the borrowing club have to pay for the player to face his parent club.

Losing Courtois would be a huge blow to Atlético, whose second choice keeper is Dani Aranzubia, a 34-year-old former Athletic Bilbao and Deportivo stopper who won the InterToto cup in 2008.


Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1082 on: April 11, 2014, 12:11:25 PM »
Chelsea have been drawn to face Atlético Madrid in the Champions League semi-finals, having been told by Uefa that a clause requiring the Spaniards to fork out up to €6m for the goalkeeper Thibaut Courtois to play against his parent club is "null, void and unenforceable".

Unlike in the Premier League, where loan players cannot face their parent clubs, there are no such restrictions in the Champions League. Courtois, who is in his third season on loan at Atlético, played well for the La Liga leaders against Chelsea last season in the Spanish club's European Super Cup victory and, if that was slightly embarrassing for Chelsea, it may have motivated them to insert the clause into Courtois's latest deal.

However, Uefa has now stepped in and warned Chelsea they will face disciplinary proceedings should they attempt to make Atlético pay the sum, despite the contractual position.

It remains to be seen whether Atlético would select Courtois and risk damaging relations with Chelsea, given they want to take the 21-year-old back on loan next season. Chelsea are also known to be prioritising the signing of Atlético's striker Diego Costa.

In a statement, Uefa explained: "Both the Champions League and the disciplinary regulations contain clear provisions which strictly forbid any club to exert, or attempt to exert, any influence whatsoever over the players that another club may (or may not) field in a match."

It added: "It follows that any provision in a private contract between clubs which might function in such a way as to influence who a club fields in a match is null, void and unenforceable so far as Uefa is concerned.

"Furthermore, any attempt to enforce such a provision would be a clear violation of both the Uefa Champions League and the Uefa disciplinary regulations and would therefore be sanctioned accordingly."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/11/champions-league-semi-final-draw-chelsea-atletico-real-madrid-bayern-munich
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Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1083 on: April 11, 2014, 12:31:51 PM »
That's some crap. I hope Chelsea win and then recall him the next day since contracts are null and void in UEFA. Well those are some shitty lawyers who draw up such a contract and not taking into considerations UEFA rules and regulations.

It does not matter whether or not he plays, but UEFA could have just sent CFC and AM a memo.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1084 on: April 11, 2014, 01:59:23 PM »
That's some crap. I hope Chelsea win and then recall him the next day since contracts are null and void in UEFA. Well those are some shitty lawyers who draw up such a contract and not taking into considerations UEFA rules and regulations.

It does not matter whether or not he plays, but UEFA could have just sent CFC and AM a memo.

Why?  :D
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1085 on: April 11, 2014, 02:47:41 PM »
Courtois' absence would alter the character of that semi-final clash fundamentally!!!
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Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1086 on: April 11, 2014, 03:04:50 PM »
That's some crap. I hope Chelsea win and then recall him the next day since contracts are null and void in UEFA. Well those are some shitty lawyers who draw up such a contract and not taking into considerations UEFA rules and regulations.

It does not matter whether or not he plays, but UEFA could have just sent CFC and AM a memo.

UEFA are defending the spirit of the game. 
I don't think Chelsea can recall him anytime they want.  Would Atletico leave themselves open to losing their keeper if Cech got injured?
I feel Atletico have some kind of protection against an early recall.

Real - Bayern look like a final.  They might wear each other out.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1087 on: April 11, 2014, 04:29:23 PM »
Heard that there's no clause preventing Courtois from facing Chelsea ... if it came to that.

There is a clause but uefa have rubbished it and said if Chelsea tried to enforce it theyll face disciplinary action.

The contractual language doesn't [expressly] prevent Courtois from facing Chelsea ... it however inherently/seemingly effectuates an outcome that could/would preclude Courtois from playing (but for UEFA's pronouncement?!!).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 04:31:09 PM by asylumseeker »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1088 on: April 11, 2014, 04:40:53 PM »
That's some crap. I hope Chelsea win and then recall him the next day since contracts are null and void in UEFA. Well those are some shitty lawyers who draw up such a contract and not taking into considerations UEFA rules and regulations.

It does not matter whether or not he plays, but UEFA could have just sent CFC and AM a memo.

You are such an emotional baby sometimes.  Contracts are not null and void, ILLEGAL CONTRACTS are null and void... that has always been the case.  In this instance, Chelsea's lawyers either didn't know of, or didn't consider/appreciate the scope of the UEFA provision.  On the one hand I say allow the two parties the freedom to set whatever provisions they want, but on the other hand, where there is a prior-existing Confederation-wide provision such as this, private parties cannot just override that by agreeing to subvent the provision.  All this without addressing stuff like "the spirit of the game" etc.

Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1089 on: April 11, 2014, 07:04:17 PM »
That's some crap. I hope Chelsea win and then recall him the next day since contracts are null and void in UEFA. Well those are some shitty lawyers who draw up such a contract and not taking into considerations UEFA rules and regulations.

It does not matter whether or not he plays, but UEFA could have just sent CFC and AM a memo.

You are such an emotional baby sometimes.  Contracts are not null and void, ILLEGAL CONTRACTS are null and void... that has always been the case.  In this instance, Chelsea's lawyers either didn't know of, or didn't consider/appreciate the scope of the UEFA provision.  On the one hand I say allow the two parties the freedom to set whatever provisions they want, but on the other hand, where there is a prior-existing Confederation-wide provision such as this, private parties cannot just override that by agreeing to subvent the provision.  All this without addressing stuff like "the spirit of the game" etc.

Did you even read what I wrote? Talk about baby.
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Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1090 on: April 11, 2014, 08:06:35 PM »
UEFA is a big fraud and plays favorite. Hope Chelsea can get past UEFA boogie men.
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Offline Blue

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1091 on: April 12, 2014, 06:33:15 AM »
UEFA have declared the Courtois clause null and void but Atletico know that if they play him without paying they have no chance of getting him back on loan next season. So they still have a tough decision to make.

Offline mukumsplau

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1092 on: April 12, 2014, 08:47:54 AM »
UEFA have declared the Courtois clause null and void but Atletico know that if they play him without paying they have no chance of getting him back on loan next season. So they still have a tough decision to make.

steups i say take d chance. yuh on a scintillating run this season so go all out.

Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1093 on: April 12, 2014, 09:55:52 AM »
UEFA have declared the Courtois clause null and void but Atletico know that if they play him without paying they have no chance of getting him back on loan next season. So they still have a tough decision to make.

steups i say take d chance. yuh on a scintillating run this season so go all out.

Agreed. How often do you get a shot at a CL final?  Diego Costa might not be there next season either.  Those bigger clubs will be looking to plunder Atletico's talent in this off-season. Play Courtois and destroy Chelsea.  :praying:

Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1094 on: April 12, 2014, 10:04:21 AM »
UEFA took a shrug-the-shoulders stance in the case of Mo Bangura facing his parent club Celtic.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/233438-mo-bangura-could-feature-against-celtic-for-loan-club-if-elfsborg/

Mo Bangura is set to face his parent club Celtic in the UEFA Champions League third qualifying round.

The striker is currently on loan with Swedish side IF Elfsborg, who have been drawn against the Scottish champions in the competition.

Neither side are confirmed as having reached the next stage but are expected to progress, with Celtic 3-0 up on Cliftonville and Elfsborg 7-1 ahead against FC Daugava.

That has raised the possibility of the 23-year-old coming up against his employers, with UEFA rules not prohibiting a player on loan coming up against his parent side.

Speaking to STV after the draw, Elfsborg's club operations manager Stefan Andreasson said the striker would be in their squad to face Celtic.

"He will play," Andreasson told STV. "I have sent an SMS to Peter Lawwell about the game but not about Bangura. He knows the agreement.

"Bangura is doing well with us. We have had an OK start in the league and he is an important player for us."

A statement from UEFA confirmed their rules do not forbid Bangura from playing against Celtic.

"As we, in line with the FIFA regulations on status and transfer of players, consider a loan to be a transfer, we do not have any regulations regarding players not playing against their parent club whilst on loan to another club," the governing body told STV.

"If a player is duly registered on the player list of IF Elfsborg then he can play against any team that Elfsborg are drawn against.

"Any agreement between the two clubs that this player wouldn’t play against Celtic should Elfsborg be drawn against them is purely between the clubs.

"UEFA would not have any involvement or consideration of this agreement, it would be neither endorsed or enforceable by UEFA."


Bangura, who is on loan to Elfsborg until December, has netted six goals in 17 games, including a goal in their 7-1 win over FC Daugava.

Signed by Celtic from AIK in 2011, the player failed to make an impact in Glasgow, scoring no goals in 16 competitive appearances.

Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1095 on: April 12, 2014, 10:19:02 AM »
UEFA took a shrug-the-shoulders stance in the case of Mo Bangura facing his parent club Celtic.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/233438-mo-bangura-could-feature-against-celtic-for-loan-club-if-elfsborg/

Mo Bangura is set to face his parent club Celtic in the UEFA Champions League third qualifying round.

The striker is currently on loan with Swedish side IF Elfsborg, who have been drawn against the Scottish champions in the competition.

Neither side are confirmed as having reached the next stage but are expected to progress, with Celtic 3-0 up on Cliftonville and Elfsborg 7-1 ahead against FC Daugava.

That has raised the possibility of the 23-year-old coming up against his employers, with UEFA rules not prohibiting a player on loan coming up against his parent side.

Speaking to STV after the draw, Elfsborg's club operations manager Stefan Andreasson said the striker would be in their squad to face Celtic.

"He will play," Andreasson told STV. "I have sent an SMS to Peter Lawwell about the game but not about Bangura. He knows the agreement.

"Bangura is doing well with us. We have had an OK start in the league and he is an important player for us."

A statement from UEFA confirmed their rules do not forbid Bangura from playing against Celtic.

"As we, in line with the FIFA regulations on status and transfer of players, consider a loan to be a transfer, we do not have any regulations regarding players not playing against their parent club whilst on loan to another club," the governing body told STV.

"If a player is duly registered on the player list of IF Elfsborg then he can play against any team that Elfsborg are drawn against.

"Any agreement between the two clubs that this player wouldn’t play against Celtic should Elfsborg be drawn against them is purely between the clubs.

"UEFA would not have any involvement or consideration of this agreement, it would be neither endorsed or enforceable by UEFA."


Bangura, who is on loan to Elfsborg until December, has netted six goals in 17 games, including a goal in their 7-1 win over FC Daugava.

Signed by Celtic from AIK in 2011, the player failed to make an impact in Glasgow, scoring no goals in 16 competitive appearances.


Men does quick to talk but don't pay attention. They quickly forget this situation or their wiki search eh bring it up. I was waiting for men to talk more mess before I post this UEFA ruling. UEFA bias and convenient.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 10:20:46 AM by elan »
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1096 on: April 12, 2014, 11:11:25 AM »
The circumstances are similar, but not the same. There are elements that distinguish the cases.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1097 on: April 12, 2014, 12:26:12 PM »

Men does quick to talk but don't pay attention. They quickly forget this situation or their wiki search eh bring it up. I was waiting for men to talk more mess before I post this UEFA ruling. UEFA bias and convenient.


I suggest you develop a bit more of an understanding yourself before you deign to impugn the understanding of others.  The two cases are easily distnguishable.  If the two clubs agree that the player would not feature then that is the clubs' business.  However, what UEFA has prohibited, is one club (in this case Chelsea) threatening to penalise the other club should the player feature in the game.  What UEFA has said is that any such clause is unenforceable.  Not surprisingly this is making the rounds on Chelsea fansites... everybody is clutching at emotional straws without taking the effort to understand the nuances that separate the two cases.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1098 on: April 12, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »
UEFA should do what the FA did and simply ban loaned players playing their parent club full stop in order to avoid these situations - Everton and Man U had a similar situation over Tim Howard a couple seasons ago.

Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1099 on: April 12, 2014, 02:37:53 PM »
How about clubs can't loan a player out if he could possibly play against the parent club.
Sell players that you don't plan to use, use players that you buy.

Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1100 on: April 12, 2014, 02:48:11 PM »

Men does quick to talk but don't pay attention. They quickly forget this situation or their wiki search eh bring it up. I was waiting for men to talk more mess before I post this UEFA ruling. UEFA bias and convenient.


I suggest you develop a bit more of an understanding yourself before you deign to impugn the understanding of others.  The two cases are easily distnguishable.  If the two clubs agree that the player would not feature then that is the clubs' business.  However, what UEFA has prohibited, is one club (in this case Chelsea) threatening to penalise the other club should the player feature in the game.  What UEFA has said is that any such clause is unenforceable.  Not surprisingly this is making the rounds on Chelsea fansites... everybody is clutching at emotional straws without taking the effort to understand the nuances that separate the two cases.

 :bs: Bakes, did AM not sign the contract which stipulates the clause? Reading is key son, as you like to point out to everyone.

Quote
The Chelsea keeper has been on loan at Atletico for three seasons but the Madrid club’s president, Enrique Cerezo, told Spanish radio after the quarter-final triumph over Barcelona they would be 'unable to pay' the added fees which were part of the loan agreement.


Quote
"Any agreement between the two clubs that this player wouldn’t play against Celtic should Elfsborg be drawn against them is purely between the clubs.

A signed contract is an agreement between both parties and SHOULD be enforceable.


And it is not just Chelsea fan sites.


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Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1101 on: April 12, 2014, 03:12:23 PM »
What elan and Chelsea want is bad for the game.

Just because two clubs agree on something doesn't mean it is enforceable.  Suppose they all agree that if Courtois wants to play vs Chelsea he has to score an own goal, is that enforceable?

And this does not sound like a loan fee as John Cross says, this sounds more like a financial penalty.
Atletico secure a player on loan, then have to pay more to use the player vs a certain team? 
That does not sit well with me.

I hope they create some rules for this kind of case.

Aren't there any rich Spanish guys who want to donate a few million to Atletico?

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1102 on: April 12, 2014, 03:16:55 PM »
elan ... the mere reading of a contract and signing it ... is not the end.

As to an entire contract ... or to a specific clause(s), there may be a finding that a contract or specific terms of a contract are unenforceable. Such "unenforceability" might be the result of various grounds ... it might be deemed "unconscionable" ... it might be deemed "repugnant to public policy" (in simple terms, if the contract does not promote a good) ... there might have been duress etc.

If you look at UEFA's rationale regarding "influence", you'll see what's what.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1103 on: April 12, 2014, 04:45:22 PM »
Yes, I'll leave it up to you fellas to try and reason with him because my efforts clearly not bearing fruit.

Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1104 on: April 12, 2014, 05:53:53 PM »
Yeah, but therein lies the problem though. UEFA catergorically stated that it's up to the club to settle their point of contention, but within this particular scenario they feel it necessary to step in and rule. Was the "spirit of competition" not involved in the decision making process last time around?

Here's the thing Peong, like you, many others jump on Chelsea case in a preemptive strike knowing that Courtois is our player and that we had a good chance of competing against AM.

Chelsea NEVER made any statement to the effect that Courtois cannot play. That was all from the press speculating such and people took it and ran with it. Can anyone point me to a press release or anything where Chelsea said they will activate their clause to prevent Courtois from playing?

The fact remains that even with the contract and the clause Courtois can play. That was never in doubt. AM can pick him and there is nothing Chelsea can do, NOTHING. However, if AM plays him they will owe Chelsea 3 million Euros (I think) per game.  So to say that Chelsea is "picking the team" or "influencing" the selection of the team is not DIRECTLY true. The spirit of the game is not being trampled on.

It was never in doubt that he can play, he can and he always could.

It's like using an app on your phone. You get the app for free or (let's say $0.99) and you can make in app purchases. You don't have to, but you can. Is that not fair trade?

I don't care if he play, let him play. Raises his stock which will bring more money to the club when we sell him or experience if we ever need him. My problem is the manner in which UEFA handled the whole scene. Do you or do you not have regulations governing players loan agreements between clubs.
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1105 on: April 12, 2014, 07:28:14 PM »
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Gianluca and Giuliano Simeone at their home in Argentina ... celebrating their dad's success in progressing to the semis.
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Offline Peong

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1106 on: April 22, 2014, 02:23:55 PM »
Arda Turan reach. LIX for Chelsea. 

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1107 on: April 22, 2014, 02:32:25 PM »
Atleti is concerned about the counter ... shows in the lack of intricate passing in the final third.
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Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1108 on: April 23, 2014, 01:05:57 PM »
...and that, Jose, is how you do a counter-attack.
Of course, history shows that scoring against them just makes Bayern angry. You wouldn't like them when they are angry.
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Offline elan

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1109 on: April 23, 2014, 01:43:56 PM »
...and that, Jose, is how you do a counter-attack.
Of course, history shows that scoring against them just makes Bayern angry. You wouldn't like them when they are angry.

Wait, you seriously telling Jose about counter-attack?   :rotfl: :rotfl:
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