Racism in football Thread.

[davidephraim]

Yuh might take the man out of the cave but you wont get de cave out of the man. Ironically, these illiterates abuse every other teams black players while having their own on the field! So every team experiences this when they are away! At home, everyone is so happy when their "Blacks" contribute, they must forget they are racist at that point which is so sad! At least if you're gonna be racist, be hard core like Russia who is willing to throw bananas at home too.

Additionally, I think opposing fans, see this as a ploy to take these minority players off their game and shit Ill be dammed if it don't work. Maybe with this Alves thing, the tables may turn a bit! So I hope these players are prepared to eat a heck of a lot more bananas because de baccannal now start! Like a wizard here say though, Let the soul searching begin and in the interim hopefully real money will be threatened forcing the Spanish to change their course of action.

The russians; well thats a whole different ball game!

Maybe their'll be a boiling point by time their world cup come around and maybe, if we're lucky, all black players and the sympathetic white ones will make a stand and boycott Russia Worldcup. I'm certain Russians will be happy. but Russia herself may not appreciate all that negative attention!

[asylumseeker]

The other day I asked what would happen if the banana incident happened in the NFL.

Couple days later it's the NHL that is confronted with racist sentiment all because a black man scored a winning goal in OT. If yuh short on time start from 5:33.

Interestingly, in this video from 2012, @ 0:36 Subban talks about doing the same thing Alves did.

[Tiresais]

The saddest thing is that they don't consider themselves racist - look at the supporters who rallied around this racist ass. They think attacking a player's race is an acceptable response on the football pitch in order to put them off, and compartmentalise that part of their life with how they deal with people in general. Sheer ignorance, and education is the main long-term solution, but that requires political will to effect this change which seems to be sorely lacking in Southern Europe and has been lacking for decades

[asylumseeker]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/kfWvrWKPdyo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/kfWvrWKPdyo</a>

[asylumseeker]

According to AS, about 1,000 people attended the protest, displaying placards that read: "Turn off the TV, open your mind" and "Stop journalism, stop misinformation." AS also reported that there were "moments of tension" between the protesters and reporters sent to cover the event.

Seems an inflated figure based on footage seen ...

[asylumseeker]

Brazil's Alves wants leniency for 'banana' fan

Brazilian-born Barcelona defender Dani Alves said Sunday he wanted some leniency for the Spanish fan banned for throwing a banana near him during a game.

"There does have to be a punishment, but I don't believe in paying evil with evil," Alves told broadcaster Globo.

"People have to educate. You can't do it in this way," said Alves, after Liga outfit Villarreal last week handed a life ban to the fan who threw the fruit.

Alves won widespread credit for his cool response -- he simply peeled the fruit and ate it before taking a corner.

The response won acclaim, with even Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff tweeting her admiration for "a daring and strong response" to an incidence of racism.

"It is the strong who forgive," Alves said.

He indicated he would be unhappy to see the 26-year-old banana thrower, David Campayo, lose his livelihood if sentenced to jail time.

"He is a family man and has to support his family by some means," Alves told a Globo reporter in Barcelona.

His response, an attempted "intelligent response to a attack," came after just one of several incidents with racist overtones at Spanish matches recently.

Sunday saw another, with Levante's Senegalese midfielder Pape Diop saying he had been the subject of monkey chanting by Atletico Madrid fans.

After the Alves incident fellow athletes, including Brazil star and Barca teammate Neymar, posted pictures of themselves chomping bananas on social media sites.

The incident has since dominated media discussion in Brazil, while Neymar's PR firm launched a "We Are All Monkeys" social media initiative to slam racism in sport.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brazils-alves-wants-leniency-banana-fan-023317687.html#2wDc7Ft

[Tiresais]

Classy guy, but justice (however that is decided) needs to be applied in order to protect others. This is beyond football - it's part of a wider battle against racism in society and I personally can't see the justification for treating him leniently - having a family doesn't absolve him of the responsibility of not being a ass-hat.

[amielisadore]

Central F.C.'s answer to racism in a tribute to Dani Alves #weareallmonkeys
"Like" this video and send a message to kick racism out of football. Please share with all of your friends.

http://centralfctt.com/videos/video.php?v=14

[asylumseeker]

Look ting! Allyuh in de mix. Well done.

[Football supporter]

Central F.C.'s answer to racism in a tribute to Dani Alves #weareallmonkeys
"Like" this video and send a message to kick racism out of football. Please share with all of your friends.

http://centralfctt.com/videos/video.php?v=14

People sharing and liking this like crazy on social media. Shaka going to put in on ESPN and it may go out on BBC or Sky Sports. 

[asylumseeker]

FS, how come all of the starting XI didn't have a banana?

[Football supporter]

FS, how come all of the starting XI didn't have a banana?

LOL. I think some of them were in their pre match trance and forgot! Players like Jan-Michael have very strict rituals. You may notice in penalty shoot outs that he lays down on the ground with his eyes covered when we take pens!

[Bakes]

Makes it even more compelling.....sorry Bakes, but it's always different in this case right.

It doesn't make it "even more compelling," quite the opposite... he was voted POY by his fellow players.  Seems clear the significance of me highlighting "PFA" was lost on you.  It hardly seems likely that his fellow players would vote him player of the year if there was any substance to your charge that he's a racist.

[elan]

Makes it even more compelling.....sorry Bakes, but it's always different in this case right.

It doesn't make it "even more compelling," quite the opposite... he was voted POY by his fellow players.  Seems clear the significance of me highlighting "PFA" was lost on you.  It hardly seems likely that his fellow players would vote him player of the year if there was any substance to your charge that he's a racist.

Exactly, if the players don't see anything wrong, then nothing's wrong.

[Bakes]

Exactly, if the players don't see anything wrong, then nothing's wrong.

Is not a matter of them not seeing anything wrong... maybe it's because the situation is exaggerated/distorted to the outside world looking on.  Heck even Evra has made his peace with the man.

[asylumseeker]

Kudos to Nosa Igiebor and Roque Santa Cruz for speaking out on this issue.

[elan]

Exactly, if the players don't see anything wrong, then nothing's wrong.

Is not a matter of them not seeing anything wrong... maybe it's because the situation is exaggerated/distorted to the outside world looking on.  Heck even Evra has made his peace with the man.

A real man Evra, forgive them. Thanks for letting me know, now Evra is in my good books. 

[elan]

Spanish government blast racism fine



Barca and Brazil full-back Alves picked up and ate the banana, leading to a social media campaign led by his club and country teammate Neymar, which drew global attention to the issue of racism in Spanish football.

Villarreal quickly identified and banned the fan responsible, and he was also arrested and charged by local police, but La Liga authorities (LFP) decided against taking strong action against the club -- such as forcing them to play behind closed doors -- and instead issued a fine and banned the thrower from sporting events for two years.

Spain's Sports minister Miguel Cardenal has told TVE's breakfast show that such a punishment sent an insufficiently strong message about the country's attitude to racist acts.

"We must have zero tolerance on racism," Cardenal said. "Any measure you take is not enough. We must fight with all our efforts and not debate if we have more or less racism than other countries. Any level is completely wrong. To me the punishment seemed insufficient, and if possible, we will appeal it. It is something which the Anti-violence Commission are studying."

Cardenal echoed the view of ex-Barcelona defender Lilian Thuram that as a high-profile sport football should set an example on important issues such as this.

"You must send a clear message to society and give a lesson on this matter," he said. "With the financial resources which football has in our country, if the response to an incident like this is [a fine of] 12.000 euros, in my opinion the message that is sent to society is not at all proportional to the size of the phenomenon. I would like for clubs to accept when punishments are handed out, and take more responsibility in eradicating this."

In a statement to Europa Press Spain's official Commission against Violence, Racism, Xenophobia and Intolerance in Sport, which has been criticised recently for turning a blind-eye to similar racist incidents in the past, also said it thought the measures announced by La Liga's authorities in this case were not strong enough.

"The commission does not share the content of said disciplinary decision, made public in the media, and considers that it should be revised given the seriousness of the incident," the statement said.

Villarreal coach Marcelino has meanwhile pointed out that many similar incidents of racism inside Spanish football grounds have gone unpunished in the past.

"Fines of 10,000 or 20,000 euros [do not solve the problem]," Marcelino said in Marca. "There have been situations much bigger than this incident. I want to say that we are making mistakes in something. This is something which does not just happen at El Madrigal, it happens in nearly every stadium."

[Bakes]

Hard to really make the case tha the club deserved to be punished more severely though.

[Tiresais]

Hard to really make the case tha the club deserved to be punished more severely though.

Compared to the disgracefully lenient precedents set by FIFA and the Spanish FA, I agree. When trying to set a new precedent that actually deters racism? Easy to argue that - Banning English teams from participating in Europe was an appropriate response to the thuggery of football hooliganism - why isn't racism deemed anywhere near as unacceptable?

[Bakes]

Compared to the disgracefully lenient precedents set by FIFA and the Spanish FA, I agree. When trying to set a new precedent that actually deters racism? Easy to argue that - Banning English teams from participating in Europe was an appropriate response to the thuggery of football hooliganism - why isn't racism deemed anywhere near as unacceptable?

Banning English teams was both arbitrary and ineffectual... it just prevented English teams from participating.  Liverpool wasn't responsible for the Heysel tragedy but the club and all English teams were banned... to what end.  That sure cured "the thuggery of football hooliganism, didn't it?

Just as Liverpool paid unnecessarily for the actions of a few idiots, so too would a stiffer penalty punish Villreal unnecessarily for the actions of one idiot.  What could the do proactively to prevent fans from making racist chants?  And the banana throwing... ban bananas from the stadium?

[asylumseeker]

Three comments:

1. Good to see that this socially conservative Spanish government understands the need for strong pronouncements and stronger action.

2. In Spain there has to be a policy starting point of proper and consistent consequences for racist conduct. Although not unprecedented events of racist conduct, the present events present a viable point at which to depart from the status quo of inconsistency and a lack of uniformity in response. Without an elimination of inconsistent responses, other protesters will gather in the streets to support individuals who have been punished for racist conduct - if only to point to a catalogue of other incidents of misconduct in which responses were insufficient or tempered or non-existent. Spanish society's resolution of this issue has no chance of advancing if any of the stakeholders of the game - including the public at large - are not properly held accountable.

3. Any assessment of the fine imposed on the club as being reflective of proper accountability is misguided.

[Tiresais]

Compared to the disgracefully lenient precedents set by FIFA and the Spanish FA, I agree. When trying to set a new precedent that actually deters racism? Easy to argue that - Banning English teams from participating in Europe was an appropriate response to the thuggery of football hooliganism - why isn't racism deemed anywhere near as unacceptable?

Banning English teams was both arbitrary and ineffectual... it just prevented English teams from participating.  Liverpool wasn't responsible for the Heysel tragedy but the club and all English teams were banned... to what end.  That sure cured "the thuggery of football hooliganism, didn't it?

Just as Liverpool paid unnecessarily for the actions of a few idiots, so too would a stiffer penalty punish Villreal unnecessarily for the actions of one idiot.  What could the do proactively to prevent fans from making racist chants?  And the banana throwing... ban bananas from the stadium?

Bakes your article doesn't contradict my point as I wasn't talking about European hooliganism, which is still a staple fixture - English hooliganism is at an all-time low, and I'm of the opinion that the European ban, combined with tough policing policies and an engagement with clubs by the police helped reduce it. The European ban was a smaller part of it, but it was a sign of how bad the times had come and at least stopped English hooligans beating up on foreigners for a while.

Villareal should be punished for one idiot - he's a paid representative of their club which makes them more culpable imo. If all individuals guilty of racist chanting got lifetime bans, see how quickly they'll stop chanting. The banana isn't the problem here it's the morons throwing them, so banning bananas would be ridiculous - you're straw-manning the possible responses. I get your argument that you shouldn't punish the many for the few - but we're talking about an organisation that derives its money and power from the strong group mentality it can foster.

The banana throw is indicative of a culture of normalised racism in Spanish football that needs a more robust response - these slaps on the wrist send the wrong message - be racist and we'll tut-tut you. In England, there'd be a massive uproar and serious consequences, in Spain, some pathetic fine and protesters supporting the racism.

[Bakes]

Bakes your article doesn't contradict my point as I wasn't talking about European hooliganism, which is still a staple fixture - English hooliganism is at an all-time low, and I'm of the opinion that the European ban, combined with tough policing policies and an engagement with clubs by the police helped reduce it. The European ban was a smaller part of it, but it was a sign of how bad the times had come and at least stopped English hooligans beating up on foreigners for a while.

Not only does it contradict your argument, it completely eviscerates any point you were trying to make by suggesting banning as a remedy.  English teams were banned and hooliganism hasn't been eradicated... so it's pointless to bring it into the conversation.  Not only that, but it's ridiculous to even attempt to make a comparison between hooliganism and racism, beyond the fact that both are disfavored fan behavior.  Proper policing is what has curbed hooliganism more than anything, and if you follow the links I provided, you'll see that Russian is reaching out to English counterparts for help in controlling growing hooliganism, and none of the solutions being proposed is a ban on Russian clubs from European competition. 

Villareal should be punished for one idiot - he's a paid representative of their club which makes them more culpable imo. If all individuals guilty of racist chanting got lifetime bans, see how quickly they'll stop chanting. The banana isn't the problem here it's the morons throwing them, so banning bananas would be ridiculous - you're straw-manning the possible responses. I get your argument that you shouldn't punish the many for the few - but we're talking about an organisation that derives its money and power from the strong group mentality it can foster.

If this fool punched someone in the face during the match would you also argue that Villareal was culpable for his actions just because he is on their payroll?  Are they responsible for everything he does in his private life since he's an employee?  It's foolish reasoning at best.  He was not representing the club or acting within the scope of his employ at the time. 

I'm "straw-manning" and you're talking shit as usual.  You should pay closer attention, this isn't about not punishing the many for the few, it's about not punishing the innocent for the guilty, especially when the wider punishment has very little chance of influencing the actions of the guilty.  Forcing the team to play behind closed doors might be the best solution, but even then you punish the other club as well, who will suffer from not having their fans in the stands.  The cub did just about the fairest thing possible, it banned the fan for life... and presumably terminated him as well.

The banana throw is indicative of a culture of normalised racism in Spanish football that needs a more robust response - these slaps on the wrist send the wrong message - be racist and we'll tut-tut you. In England, there'd be a massive uproar and serious consequences, in Spain, some pathetic fine and protesters supporting the racism.

Serious consequences like what??  How would an English club be punished?  This is the gist of the discussion, you didn't call for more civil or criminal penalties, you advocated more punishment for the club.  Tell us how the situation would be different in England because I cannot recall an instance of an English club being punished for the racist actions of its fans.

[asylumseeker]

FS?

[Tiresais]

Bakes yuh always get so vex, seriously you need to chill and step away from the keyboard or learn not to take every minor point as a personal affront. So go take a sip of tea before you read the post eh

Not only does it contradict your argument, it completely eviscerates any point you were trying to make by suggesting banning as a remedy.  English teams were banned and hooliganism hasn't been eradicated... so it's pointless to bring it into the conversation.  Not only that, but it's ridiculous to even attempt to make a comparison between hooliganism and racism, beyond the fact that both are disfavored fan behavior.  Proper policing is what has curbed hooliganism more than anything, and if you follow the links I provided, you'll see that Russian is reaching out to English counterparts for help in controlling growing hooliganism, and none of the solutions being proposed is a ban on Russian clubs from European competition. 

*sigh* you're being ridiculous - no one's talking in absolutes and this is the strawmanning that you're guilty of. Football arrests hit the lowest ever in 2011-12 in Britain, and now stands in 2012-13 at 1800 out of a total attendance of nearly 30 million. Secondly, we're talking about the proper punishment, which is separate from how you should reduce it - a combination of strong punishment with good policing is obviously the appropriate response. Clearly, you shouldn't start with banning them from Europe, but banning clubs for particularly egregious violations of the anti-racism stance should absolutely be a punishment on the table. Britain has a horrific history of hooliganism pre 1990s both home and abroad, and with that respect the hooliganism of Heysel and the punishment thereof were an accumulation of all that came before.

IMO it was the appropriate response and set a meaningful precedent in how UEFA deals with repeated, grossly violent behaviour. If an organisation can't adequately ensure the safety of others then it should lose the right to profit from or engage in these matches.

If this fool punched someone in the face during the match would you also argue that Villareal was culpable for his actions just because he is on their payroll?  Are they responsible for everything he does in his private life since he's an employee?  It's foolish reasoning at best.  He was not representing the club or acting within the scope of his employ at the time. 

I'm "straw-manning" and you're talking shit as usual.  You should pay closer attention, this isn't about not punishing the many for the few, it's about not punishing the innocent for the guilty, especially when the wider punishment has very little chance of influencing the actions of the guilty.  Forcing the team to play behind closed doors might be the best solution, but even then you punish the other club as well, who will suffer from not having their fans in the stands.  The cub did just about the fairest thing possible, it banned the fan for life... and presumably terminated him as well.

If a doctor is criminally negligent, does the hospital bear no responsibility? Whether we like it or not we continue to be a representative of our place of work even when outside it, which is why you can be fired for actions taken away from work. Moreover, it's hard to argue that he cannot be seen as representing the club when on their premises. Whilst cautious about stepping out of my expertise and into yours, there have been numerous examples of companies being punished for the actions of their agents, and in the example here surely being an employee at your place of work clearly has implications whether you're on the clock or not. Moreover, we're talking about an organisation of clubs that sign up to their own internal laws, which stipulate that clubs bear a measure of responsibility for the behaviour of their fans. 

Serious consequences like what??  How would an English club be punished?  This is the gist of the discussion, you didn't call for more civil or criminal penalties, you advocated more punishment for the club.  Tell us how the situation would be different in England because I cannot recall an instance of an English club being punished for the racist actions of its fans.

Millwall have been charged twice in the past 10 years, and the punishment by the FA tends to be matches behind closed doors, a fine, and the potential of points deductions. Sadly I think Millwall won the appeal, so I'll probably concede this point.

[Bakes]

Bakes yuh always get so vex, seriously you need to chill and step away from the keyboard or learn not to take every minor point as a personal affront. So go take a sip of tea before you read the post eh

Don't be an ass, focus on the discussion taking place in this thread and don't worry about playing armchair cyber psychologist.  Me telling you that yuh talking shit as usual is hardly proof that I have taken "personal affront" or otherwise vex.

*sigh* you're being ridiculous - no one's talking in absolutes and this is the strawmanning that you're guilty of. Football arrests hit the lowest ever in 2011-12 in Britain, and now stands in 2012-13 at 1800 out of a total attendance of nearly 30 million. Secondly, we're talking about the proper punishment, which is separate from how you should reduce it - a combination of strong punishment with good policing is obviously the appropriate response. Clearly, you shouldn't start with banning them from Europe, but banning clubs for particularly egregious violations of the anti-racism stance should absolutely be a punishment on the table. Britain has a horrific history of hooliganism pre 1990s both home and abroad, and with that respect the hooliganism of Heysel and the punishment thereof were an accumulation of all that came before.
 
IMO it was the appropriate response and set a meaningful precedent in how UEFA deals with repeated, grossly violent behaviour. If an organisation can't adequately ensure the safety of others then it should lose the right to profit from or engage in these matches.

You're right... no one is "talking absolutes" unless you could show where I have I'll again have to ask you to focus on what's taking place in the conversation, and not what's taking place in your head.  Football arrests occurring at an all-time low in England is hardly proof that the European ban worked.  Focus harder and try again.  Banning clubs for "particularly egregious" violations might be appropriate, except we're talking about what would be appropriate punishment for Villareal... not for the "most-egregious" violators.  Unless, of course you're so foolish as to suggest that this current action is particularly egregious on Villareal's part.

If a doctor is criminally negligent, does the hospital bear no responsibility? Whether we like it or not we continue to be a representative of our place of work even when outside it, which is why you can be fired for actions taken away from work. Moreover, it's hard to argue that he cannot be seen as representing the club when on their premises. Whilst cautious about stepping out of my expertise and into yours, there have been numerous examples of companies being punished for the actions of their agents, and in the example here surely being an employee at your place of work clearly has implications whether you're on the clock or not. Moreover, we're talking about an organisation of clubs that sign up to their own internal laws, which stipulate that clubs bear a measure of responsibility for the behaviour of their fans.

Don't be cautious, simply refrain because you don't know what you're talking about as evidenced by your failure to appreciate the careful language that I used, "[h]e was not representing the club [n]or acting within the scope of his employ at the time."  A doctor cannot practice medicine at a hospital unless he has practicing privileges at that facility, meaning he has the permission to act within the scope and with the responsibilities outlined by the hospital.  By doing so he becomes an agent of the hospital.  This fool who threw the banana wasn't acting within the scope of his position as youth coach, nor has it been shown that he had the permission of the club to racially abuse Alves.  Villareal are no more responsible for his actions on their premises, than the US Postal Service is responsible for the actions of a rogue employee who comes to work and decides to shoot up the place ("goes postal").  Your position gets weaker with every subsequent utterance.

[asylumseeker]

Bakes, did the ban help or not? What value did the ban provide?

[Bakes]

Bakes, did the ban help or not? What value did the ban provide?

I can't quantify the value of the ban... in fact I doubt anyone can.  Without a doubt the ban in concert with restrictions on the sale of alcohol and the admittance of fans under the influence, along with better, more proactive police measures played a part in curbing fan behavior.  But any real benefit would have been derived, I think, by fans themselves being punished by not being allowed to see their teams play.  This is why I suggested that perhaps forcing the teams to play behind close doors might be the only real deterrent.

[Tiresais]

You're right... no one is "talking absolutes" unless you could show where I have I'll again have to ask you to focus on what's taking place in the conversation, and not what's taking place in your head.  Football arrests occurring at an all-time low in England is hardly proof that the European ban worked.  Focus harder and try again.  Banning clubs for "particularly egregious" violations might be appropriate, except we're talking about what would be appropriate punishment for Villareal... not for the "most-egregious" violators.  Unless, of course you're so foolish as to suggest that this current action is particularly egregious on Villareal's part.

Your argument is confused. My initial point was that the European ban helped solve the Hooliganism problem in England, along with the new policing tactics. Your response was that the existence of hooliganism in Italy and Russia's deference to English police tactics somehow disproved that - which was a strawman of my argument at best and utterly unrelated at worst (you did one or both of; extrapolated my argument to apply to Europe and/or asserted that since it didn't wipe out hooliganism totally that it was a failure). Specifically, you said;

Banning English teams was both arbitrary and ineffectual... it just prevented English teams from participating.  Liverpool wasn't responsible for the Heysel tragedy but the club and all English teams were banned... to what end.  That sure cured "the thuggery of football hooliganism, didn't it?

Your last sentence brings in your examples, which is where I have asserted you strawmanned my argument by implying that the ban should have whiped out hooliganism across Europe (otherwise why bring up the Italian example?).

On the broader point - it's impossible to discern whether the ban had any impact over the policing tactics (which undoubtedly had the biggest impact), but it's my opinion that it did, which is where we differ. There's no way to tell whether it did, but either way the second question - whether it was the right punishment - is one there's more to be debated over. The Heysal disaster saw 14 people convicted for manslaughter, so there was both a combination of individual prosecution and club punishment. My position isn't that individuals are not punished - they certainly should be. I assert that the club should also bear some responsibility for the behaviour of their fans.

You haven't addressed the point that clubs sign up to regulations as part of being in the La Liga, which makes them responsible (to a degree) for the behaviour of their fans.

Don't be cautious, simply refrain because you don't know what you're talking about as evidenced by your failure to appreciate the careful language that I used, "[h]e was not representing the club [n]or acting within the scope of his employ at the time."  A doctor cannot practice medicine at a hospital unless he has practicing privileges at that facility, meaning he has the permission to act within the scope and with the responsibilities outlined by the hospital.  By doing so he becomes an agent of the hospital.  This fool who threw the banana wasn't acting within the scope of his position as youth coach, nor has it been shown that he had the permission of the club to racially abuse Alves.  Villareal are no more responsible for his actions on their premises, than the US Postal Service is responsible for the actions of a rogue employee who comes to work and decides to shoot up the place ("goes postal").  Your position gets weaker with every subsequent utterance.

Fair enough, as I can't reasonably assume he was given a free ticket to the game or expected to attend as part of his club duties (some clubs require their coaching staff to attend without requiring them in the dugout, allowing them to sit with family etc), which would obviously change the context.