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Author Topic: Racism in football Thread.  (Read 201424 times)

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Offline Football supporter

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1290 on: May 12, 2014, 06:15:49 AM »

Bakes you're just flat-out trolling now - grow up

You accused me of lacking reading comprehension when I point out to you that you never spoke about effective policing to address hooliganism.  I point out to you that all you focused on was the ban itself.  Rather than admit when you're wrong, you engage in further ad hominems and sophism about me trolling.  I think Toppa and Asylumseeker have you rightly pegged as the idiot you are.  Moving on.

...
As for Toppa and Asylumseeker pegging me as an idiot, well that's their prerogative. I'm sure that they're not the only ones! Just wondering why you needed to share that information and what was the purpose of enlightening me? 

Nah, nah, nah, FS ... that's a reference to a different exchange. Case of mistaken identity.


...

That is my opinion. One that comes from being with these very people, in that timeframe, in very similar circumstances. If you really are interested in how this disaster came about, why not ask about it rather than automatically assuming that you know best? Unless you've had darts thrown at you by Man U fans or metal Kung Fu stars by Wolves fans, watched as thousands of Arsenal or Chelsea fans rush towards you with knives and bottles, how can you understand the panic, anger and tribalism that erupts? No matter how well people describe these events, unless you are there or been in such similar situations, you really can't imagine what it's like.

...

In part I asked you to chime in precisely because of the above ... and, I'm glad you did.  :beermug:


Yeah, I realise that now! But I couldn't blame you if you did lol

Offline Bakes

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1291 on: May 12, 2014, 01:34:36 PM »
You obviously don't know what a jeremiad is.

Obviously, neither do you! I saw no prophesies of doom or the breakdown of society in any of my posts. Actually, the opposite. Those years between 85 - 90 were a catalyst for positive (and much needed) change.

As for ad hominems, you originally addressed that at Tiresais, so I ignored it. However, it's interesting to note that my two lines concerning you were answered with three times as many lines about me. More a case of ad nauseam than ad hominems!

As for Toppa and Asylumseeker pegging me as an idiot, well that's their prerogative. I'm sure that they're not the only ones! Just wondering why you needed to share that information and what was the purpose of enlightening me? 

We'll address both the issue of the jeremiad and ad hominems together:

Jeremiad: a prolonged lamentation or complaint (Merriam-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jeremiad)

So... how does this apply?  You asserted that Liverpool fans on the day were part to blame for the deaths, never mind that an independent investigation states otherwise.  I offered proof in the form of painstaking detail excerpted from the official report.  You ignored that to instead write this long-ass protest complaing about me.  See how that works?

Now for the ad hominem part:

Again, I provided in painstaking detail the fact that Liverpool supporters were not to blame for the deaths, and you opened with two paragraphs bitching and complaining about me, rather than what I said... which in no way attacked or insulted you.

Bakes, as usual your expertise on absolutely every single topic that has ever been written, and your ability to take one word from several paragraphs and ignore the entire context, defeats me. Which is ok, because I'm not in any contest that has to be won at all costs.

I gave very personal opinion on certain situations because I was invited into the conversation. I steered very clear of your statements because I cannot be arsed any more to deal with you. You make this site tedious with your arguments. This is not a law court and most people don't give a shit if a poster makes a mistake regarding nuances or minor points of law. It has been educational in parts when you have enlightened people through your expertise, but you go into overkill which just bores people.


Sadly, for me, hooliganism was something I grew up with and the phrase was used as an all encompassing byword for crowd behavior. I have never sided with the authorities concerning Hillsborough, but I do have an understanding of how these events happened, having lived through similar situations that could have been even worse.

Call it what you want, but the herd mentality that took over that day, though poorly managed, was the fault of the Liverpool fans. You really believe that those thousands couldn't line up in an orderly manner? You think they couldn't listen to the mounted police who were trying to push them back? Every single one of those fans was moving relentlessly forward even though even outside, people were starting to get crushed.

If I had been there, I would have done the same. Nobody wanted to miss the game, the police were the enemy and people would be angry at them and still push forward. Nobody thinks about whats happening to people up ahead. Just like at Heysel, I'm certain that none of those Liverpool "hooligans" realised that people were being crushed due to their actions.

It may not have been hooliganism, but it doesn't happen anymore. People do line up to enter football stadiums. There is far less shoving and impatience. Much of this is due to the superb organisation by the authorities, but also, fans have learned lessons from that sad day.   

Now... as to the rest of what you wrote, I won't dismiss it because you have a personal perspective that none of us here share.  However... you seem to think that because you alone HERE has that perspective, that means that you are right... or "more right" than me.  Which is why you took offense... how dare this [      ] act like he knows better than me when I lived through it.  The good thing is that I'm not offering a personal subjective opinion, I'm offering the objective findings of an official investigation... meaning numerous witness statements were taken, including from the regular constables who were working the crowd.  None of them report unruly fans, yet you insist that the fans MUST have played a part, because USUALLY when you went into crowds like that (including LFC crowds) that's how they behaved.  All that may be true, but on THIS day there is no evidence that the fans were unruly, etc.  The fans were anxious to get into the pens to see the game, there was overcrowding and the regular jostling.  Unfortunately the fans up front had nowhere else to go.  This my friend is not hooliganism... no matter how much you think the word applies. 

ESPN did a very good 2-hour long documentary on the Hillsborough tragedy which is based in large part on the findings of the independent panel, and which forms the basis of my position that it's wrong to blame the fans in any way.  And yes, I do care about this.  Hillsborough isn't something new to me, I've been following this for a very long time, and wrote a case study about it for an online publication several years ago.  So yes, chuckle if you will.. but this is very much something I care about.  Your problem is that you let our past disagreements cloud your perspective to the point that you take every subsequent disagreement as a personal attack on you and you let your emotions get the better of you.  In addition to the ad hominems and excessive "lamentations", for instance, you claim I said I didn't give a shit about what you write... and mistook my comments to Tireasis as an attack on you.  The latter mistake seems to have been cleared up, but as to the former, I said "I honestly couldn't give a shit what you think about my posts, arguments, expertise."  Meaning however you want to construe what I say is up to you... too know-it-all, too condescending, too preachy.  You work that out.  If you find it lacking a factual basis then feel free to let me know.

Offline Football supporter

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1292 on: May 12, 2014, 02:14:22 PM »
Lets deal with facts, Bakes.

This debate between you and i stemmed from this sentence: While some bravely risked their lives to save others, many more exhibited the mindless tribal outrage which is football hooliganism. (Which also occurred at Hillsborough)

That sentence bears no relevance to your charge You asserted that Liverpool fans on the day were part to blame for the deaths,   It also is very offensive to even suggest that I "asserted" such.

Now, my interpretation of hooliganism may differ from yours, but since you like Merriam-Webster so much, their definition is : rowdy, violent, or destructive behavior
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hooliganism

You continue condescendingly stating facts, findings, statements blah blah blah. I understand your interest, but I read those initial words when they were initially printed. I read the counter claims when they were originally made. I watched the footage when it was originally shown and I spoke to people who were actually there (though none from Leppings Lane end).

I don't think I ever stated that I must be right because I was closer to the event. However, I do believe in my own opinion, otherwise, why would I offer it?
Now, you may counter my opinion if you wish, but bleating out paragraphs to counter my opinion is really not necessary.

You seem to think that taking quotes from an official inquiry makes any other opposing views as completely wrong. Yet, there is video evidence of rowdy, destructive and unruly behavior. Actions defined by Merriam-Webster as "hooliganism". You can even hear Forest and Liverpool fans chanting until they realised this was not hooliganism, but a major disaster. Many Forest fans were cheering because they thought that other Forest fans had got into the Liverpool section and the Scousers were running away. (This was a major aim of football hooligans and this victory was often more important than the games result) I was told second or third hand that Liverpool fans at the front of Leppings Lane who had arrived early, initially thought that Forest fans had smashed through the police lines.

For an everyday Brit in the 1980's, a 6 year old kid throwing pebbles at a streetlamp would be called a hooligan. Peaceful protest marchers outside South Africa House in Trafalgar Square were called hooligans (and much worse), groups of young people running along Brighton pier were called hooligans. Even the Flying Squad were called hooligans.

And as much as I truly believe that the 95 deaths were due to the awful management of the venue, the situation and the Police having little regard for the fans, there were hooligans at that game and there was hooliganism.

Maybe my posts are jeremiad (in your opinion), but maybe you should listen closer to such "laments" while also studying the facts. Put some flesh on the bones, as it were.


Offline Bakes

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1293 on: May 12, 2014, 03:48:24 PM »
Lets deal with facts, Bakes.

This debate between you and i stemmed from this sentence: While some bravely risked their lives to save others, many more exhibited the mindless tribal outrage which is football hooliganism. (Which also occurred at Hillsborough)

That sentence bears no relevance to your charge You asserted that Liverpool fans on the day were part to blame for the deaths,   It also is very offensive to even suggest that I "asserted" such.

You are correct, that is where the disagreement started.  Whatever the normal usage of "hooligan" or "hooligan behavior" out on the streets... in the context of FOOTBALL, "hooliganism" takes on a particular meaning.  But let's start by taking a look at the rest of your comments on "hooliganism":

"Unless you have actually been in a situation with 10's of thousands of fans, it would seem hard to understand how decent supporters can react in that manner. I seem to recall Juventus fans throwing flares into the Liverpool fans. No doubt, before that, there was plenty of verbal abuse from both sides and possibly, pelting of bottles etc. I'm not blaming Juventus fans for the tragedy, but there is usually a spark that ignites an explosion. When it "kicks off" panic sets in, which often leads to pushing and fear of being crushed."

The overall impression you paint (and tie to Hillsborough) is that the fans were unruly and out of control.  This is bolstered by the definition you provided from Merriam-Webster.


Quote
Now, my interpretation of hooliganism may differ from yours, but since you like Merriam-Webster so much, their definition is : rowdy, violent, or destructive behavior
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hooliganism


You continue condescendingly stating facts, findings, statements blah blah blah. I understand your interest, but I read those initial words when they were initially printed. I read the counter claims when they were originally made. I watched the footage when it was originally shown and I spoke to people who were actually there (though none from Leppings Lane end).

You never "asserted" that the fans contributed to the deaths at Hillborough, but the implication was clear... why even bring it up?  Hillsborough is infamous because of the death of the fans.  You have implicitly tied those deaths to fan behavior.  It may not have been your intent, but this is precisely what the cover up was all about, and why people react to the assertion/implication as they do.  There was nothing "violent or destructive" about the fan behavior on that day.  You say you read the initial accounts... dude, the initial accounts were wrong!  I don't know what better way to make it clear to you.  The police union was part of a conspiracy spreading lies to the press within hours of the tragedy. 90% of the newspaper articles you read came from a South Yorkshire press service that was linked to the police union.  They distorted the story, and other newspapers across England picked up the false stories.

Quote
I don't think I ever stated that I must be right because I was closer to the event. However, I do believe in my own opinion, otherwise, why would I offer it?
Now, you may counter my opinion if you wish, but bleating out paragraphs to counter my opinion is really not necessary.

You seem to think that taking quotes from an official inquiry makes any other opposing views as completely wrong. Yet, there is video evidence of rowdy, destructive and unruly behavior. Actions defined by Merriam-Webster as "hooliganism". You can even hear Forest and Liverpool fans chanting until they realised this was not hooliganism, but a major disaster.


You didn't state that your version has to be right, but when I offered a better account (and yes, I will use better, for reasons I'll explain shortly), you took offense to it by accusing me of thinking that I "know best"... why would you make that statement, if 1) you weren't offended by me countering your "opinion", and 2) if you didn't think your version of what happened was better?

And YES, taking quotes from an official inquiry is infinitely better than any personal subjective opinion you can offer second-hand, it's even better than any one personal opinion offered by a primary source.  This is because hundreds of witnesses were interviewed.  There is literally reams of reports from survivors and police officers that were never included in the Taylor Report.  The police brass suppressed that info.  These eyewitness statements were cross-referenced against each other.  One person might think that the situation unfolded one way, but others might see it differently.  If hundreds of people, including police officers in the crowd, are saying there was no "rowdy, violent, destructive" fan behavior... then why should I, or anyone accept a second-hand version.

You say you saw footage... I bet the footage you saw was from the BBC broadcast.  That footage shows mayhem that ensued as people were fighting for their lives to get out of the pens... that's not footage of people pushing because they're unruly.  Even the poor cops on the field were pulling people over the fence once they realized what was going on.  Many of those brave officers did their best to help... when we talk about a cover up it's not them who engaged in the cover up.  They made reports, and their reports were CHANGED by higher ups to cover their own asses.

I wasn't there so the report is the next best thing... especially since the report looked at not the BBC footage... but CCTV footage shot from the very box Duckenfield was standing in.  This footage is shown in the Hillborough documentary I linked earlier. Watch, if you will, the segment of the video from 14:30 - 21:00 thereabouts, it shows actual CCTV footage among others.  It continues throughout the documentary, but I'm trying to narrow the focus for you.  If you don't care then don't bother, it's up to you.

Now I understand you don't have time to go thru the report or to look at the link, but don't come talking about me "bleating out paragraphs", those paragraphs represent facts... not opinion.  Now if you still want to hold fast to your opinion that fan behavior was an issue on the day, never mind the facts contradicting you then fine.  But that intransigence won't shield you from criticism, and you can't then whine and complain about me and how my posts sound to you, when all I'm doing is offering facts.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 03:50:17 PM by Bakes »

Offline elan

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1294 on: May 21, 2014, 09:46:57 AM »
Italy for Real Italians.

Balotelli racially abused during training



Mario Balotelli was subjected to racial insults while training for Italy at the Italian Football Association's (FIGC) training centre in Coverciano, near Florence, on Wednesday.


The AC Milan forward did not respond or react to the insulting chants from one fan, who was identified and led away from the training centre. Most of the fans watching the 30-man Italy squad training showed their support for the 23-year-old, the FIGC reports on its website.

A statement from the FIGC read: "Some boys surrounding the field made some offensive chants towards Mario Balotelli and one of them pronounced a racial insult."

Although he was "distressed by the incident," Balotelli continued to train with his colleagues. According to La Gazzetta dello Sport, Balotelli said to his teammates: "It's incredible, these things happen only in Rome and Florence."

The president of the FIGC, Giancarlo Abete, condemned their actions. "It is absolutely unacceptable behaviour by individuals who should not exist, but sadly we have to accept they are there. The important thing is that they are a minority," he said at a meeting in Milan.

It is not the first time Balotelli has been victim of racially-motivated insults from Italian fans with opposition fans often targeting him in a bid to unsettle him and provoke a reaction.

Inter Milan were fined last year when their fans insulted their former player during a match in which Balotelli was not even playing.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline soccerman

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Re: Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch
« Reply #1295 on: May 21, 2014, 04:51:14 PM »
I was able to catch some of this on HBO's Real Sports last night but Bryant Gumbel did a segment on racism in soccer, you can view a little bit on the link below. I'm sure in a week or so you might be able to find the entire video on youtube.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/hbo-real-sports-racism-european-050000500.html

Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1296 on: May 24, 2014, 07:10:52 AM »
Play like allyuh doh know today is de Champions League final nah!
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1297 on: May 24, 2014, 07:31:21 AM »
Yuh done know ...

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1298 on: May 24, 2014, 07:59:00 AM »
Costa trained well yesterday for the hour long session. Stayed on for the full session. Turan was involved almost to the end.

AM sent Costa to Belgrade to seek treatment from Marijana Kovacevic, who it is said uses fluid from horse placenta to repair damaged cells.

Kovacevic has treated Robin van Persie and Frank Lampard previously.

Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1299 on: May 24, 2014, 12:56:58 PM »
So Costa start and then you sub him out after 9 minutes?
A waste of a sub.
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1300 on: May 24, 2014, 01:03:31 PM »
It's a decision subject to scrutiny.

Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1301 on: May 24, 2014, 01:16:33 PM »
Koke chopping wood.
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Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1302 on: May 24, 2014, 01:22:43 PM »
Yes!!!

Game on now!

I told a fella int he pub last week. I thnik if Atletico win the league, then they win the Champions League too. If they lose, they lose both.

They are proving me right at this moment
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 01:24:31 PM by Bitter »
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1303 on: May 24, 2014, 01:28:26 PM »
So useful to have a goal-scoring and goal-hungry defender.

Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1304 on: May 24, 2014, 01:34:19 PM »
Casillas boy...*sigh*
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Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1305 on: May 24, 2014, 01:38:30 PM »
David Villa is having some fun out there.
They talking about how Simeone prefers aggression over posession, as if Atletico don't hold the ball.
The knock is frustrating Real, and the kick downs just makes it better.

This is similar to the Barca philosophy under pep - they work hard to get the ball back when they lose it and try not to leave anyone isolated vs a danger player. But they operating with more aggression overall.

Barca, of course, never doubted that they would dominate a game, so they never forced the issue.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1306 on: May 24, 2014, 01:51:13 PM »
Why those commentators doh just shut up?
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Offline Toppa

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1307 on: May 24, 2014, 01:56:01 PM »
Real Madrid are in shambles.  :frustrated:

Di Maria is the only one playing well. The "defence" (*&^%&^& - Khadeira - (*&*&^*&!!
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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1308 on: May 24, 2014, 01:58:39 PM »
CR7 reporting fuh wuk ...

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1309 on: May 24, 2014, 02:04:57 PM »
Simeone might spur another resignation.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1310 on: May 24, 2014, 02:09:57 PM »
Has anyone seen Cronaldo lately, he seems to be missing for a large part of the game and his family are worried :p

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1311 on: May 24, 2014, 02:21:21 PM »
Bale is just not on target tonight.
When he was with Spurs, at least 2 of those chances would be goals.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1312 on: May 24, 2014, 02:22:10 PM »
Bale choked again :(

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1313 on: May 24, 2014, 02:23:53 PM »
... he seems to be over-thinking and trying to make up for prior mistakes. Coulda released to Benzema ... or hit with his right  ::)

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1314 on: May 24, 2014, 02:25:17 PM »
... he seems to be over-thinking and trying to make up for prior mistakes. Coulda released to Benzema ... or hit with his right  ::)

 :rotfl:
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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1315 on: May 24, 2014, 02:26:50 PM »
David Villa just seems to be in his own dimension time-wise. He collects the ball and time slows down, and then he just turns away and makes a pass.
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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1316 on: May 24, 2014, 02:29:06 PM »
David Villa just seems to be in his own dimension time-wise. He collects the ball and time slows down, and then he just turns away and makes a pass.

Not up to game speed ... he hasn't been getting a tremendous amount of time on the pitch this season.

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1317 on: May 24, 2014, 02:30:49 PM »
David Villa just seems to be in his own dimension time-wise. He collects the ball and time slows down, and then he just turns away and makes a pass.

Not up to game speed ... he hasn't been getting a tremendous amount of time on the pitch this season.

I meant that as a good thing. With the ball, he just seems to have more time than everybody else.
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Offline Bitter

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1318 on: May 24, 2014, 02:36:36 PM »
Hard luck dey Atletico

Bale to win it now...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 02:38:26 PM by Bitter »
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Offline Brownsugar

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Re: 2013/14 UEFA Champions League Thread
« Reply #1319 on: May 24, 2014, 02:38:37 PM »
De game eh done till de whistle blow.........
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

 

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