March 29, 2024, 02:38:12 AM

Poll

Should the TTFF fire Jamaal Shabazz

Yes
21 (80.8%)
No
2 (7.7%)
Don't Care
3 (11.5%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.  (Read 5946 times)

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Offline Deeks

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2013, 05:20:49 PM »
This forumn never wants for excitement. A football thread can start as " who had the hardest shot in TT football". Next thing we end up talking about sex, rum and politics. But this ened up being a serious history lesson. TT recount of 1970 brought back some serious flashbacks. 15 yrs old and trying to figure out what this means for everybody.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:41:48 PM by Deeks »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 05:46:41 PM »
Sharks, i eh expect nothing better from yuh, and i get it, yuhs ah law man and that's where byour passion lie, fair enough.

i just want to say this though, as much as ppl may hate shabbaz and yaseen for the "dastardly ::)" thing that they did, i still maintain that it's ah thin line between an act of terror or a noble uprising, whatever the reasoning iz, it comes down to a matter of prospective.

take forinstance, you conclude that lassale and shah's intentions were honorable, but there are ppl who lived through that experience and is still alive today in trinbago who would conclude otherwise, same way you have concluded on the jammat and their attempts.

i for one have a little more knowledge on the subject bc i happened to know quite ah few fellas who was part of the jammat and still iz, and was fully involved in the mele, and from what i gather, they were very much disgruntled with ANR robinson's policy.

did you know that there was a time during the NAR's administration that the hospitals were unable to care for the sick, and ppl were dying bc of it? there was a time when there was a shortage of emergency medicine in the hospitals and a lot of ppl lost their lives in the process, there were inadequate equipment, lack of sheets, beds, and @ one time ppl were even sleeping on the floor of the POS general like in some backawall country in the baltics or in war torn africa.

in 1989 the jammat went to the UN and got help from a few nations including libya, a container of medicine and medical supplies was send to us and robinson refused to accept it, i think it came from UNICEF, and the only reason he refused with his pompus arse was bc abu bakar was the one who brokered the deal,

so ppl were sleeping on the floor of the hospital, with no sheets and no medicine, while there was containers sitting on the port with beds sheets medicine and our "beloved" prime minister refused to accept it.

ah man talk about them shooting him in his leg, they waste ah round, they shoulda put it in his dogone head. that man undid every good thing williams did to raise the standard of living in T&T.

he went to the IMF, something williams never would have even considered, so the dollar was devalued, he cut nuff government jobs to the point that every ministry was running @ a bare minimum, ppl who worked in govt jobs for yrs was retrenched with very few yrs left before they could receive a pension, as ah matter of fact, all the social programs williams implemented for sufferers he cut.

the jammat was on his long list of agendas of things to get rid of, and he had a serious hard on for the black muslim community. as we know dr williams gave the muslims that land way back in the in the late sixties early seventies, then the indian muslims moved away and left it there for the black muslim community to control.

back in 1980ies there was a lot of hostility between the police and the black muslim community, they would harass and have even known to kill muslims, one particular case was ah brother name abdul kareem, he was stabbed to death in st james on the western main road by an undercover cop and nothing came of it.

there was many confrontations between yasseen and boroughs, and only bc yasseen was a police that knew boroughs personally, and that bakar was very much in the know and could have caused problems for the murderous commissioner, that kept boroughs @ bay.

the last straw was when the government under the auspices of mr robinson himself planned to storm the jammatt with the military and kill yaseen and his key followers, but the mission was leaked to the imam and they set up a defensive which was also leaked by an informant on the inside of the jammat which lead to a stand off.

a short time later the govt came up with another scheme, the order then was to destroy the compound utterly, and the coup which was on the back burner for a later date was pushed forward.

all who runnin their mouths about terrorist this and terrorist that, don't know what de fack was taking place in the country @ the time, but instead only going by what the media divulge.

the country was in ah mess!! under the NAR trinidad experienced ah mass exodus and a serious brain drain which still affects the quality of life in dat place uptil today!

and yes, ah still waiting for the civilian attacks, as far as i know, all the women and civilian workers in the red house was released, all the places that was attacked were either the Parliament and the CID central police station head quarters which are all non civilian targets.

yes leo divines lost his life and that was unfortunate, and maybe that journalist you referred too, but they were isolated cases, and more or less collateral damage, but i doubt they were the intended targets.

BTW TTT was occupied, not bombed, and no one died there, they were only distressed, but no one was killed as a result.





Just Cool "law" eh have nutten to do with it... me eh cite my education, training or profession... me eh even cite 'laws' other than to ask yuh which "law" say de military could oust a democratically elected government.  So me eh really see what "law man" have to do with anything. Not that I offended, mind you... but that really eh have nutten to do with what I saying.  You eh really telling me nutten I ent know, dred.  I never talk about it before but I have a close family member who today exiled out of the country because of his involvement with that foolishness.  Me eh talk to that man in over 25 years, last I hear he was living somewhere in Tanzania... so again, you eh really telling me nutten I doh know dred.

Now you tell TT that yuh only telling we what yuh know... nah, yuh only telling we what dem ruffians and dem tell yuh, without substantiation.  Nobody saying things was easy under NAR... being 'disgruntled' about Robinson's policies or hospital care doesn't give you the right to upset the will of the people in democratically selecting their government, nor to hold the country hostage.  Only when the regiment was mobilizing against the very people they was supposed to be protecting, did Lassalle and Shah stage their insurrection.  That was to head off a massacre, if not of lives, then certainly of human rights.  You CANNOT compare that with any of the foolishness that went on in 1991.  Cannot.

Offline maxg

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 05:50:26 PM »
 damn but is this a football thread ? Fire on the grounds of football....the man has served his punishment...now in football he strives to serve his country, judge based on his ability or incapability to operate in that arena..else many TT politician that ppl follow over the years should answer to the same questions of treason..they have done far worse than the few re-active even if incorrectly so, ppl to date.

since we delving with a bit of HIStory, why not get it from the horses pen
and how about his opinion on '90's.. he does take comments to
http://www.trinicenter.com/1970/
http://www.trinicenter.com/Raffique/2010/Jul/250710.htm
http://www.trinicenter.com/Raffique/
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:54:35 PM by maxg »

truetrini

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2013, 06:06:46 PM »
I will address your statements in two parts

FIRST the IMF issue:


First of all The NAR inherited a mess and an empty treasury.  They did NOT go tot he IMF...George Chambers did!

That is why the PNM lost the elections and the NAR won.

When Reagan came to T&T and asked us to join the illegal invasion of Grenada Chambers said  in Parliament on 26 October 1983 (one day after the invasion):
Quote
“to date, I have received no notification from any CARICOM member country of any intention to request assistance from the government of the United States to intervene militarily in Grenada nor have I been informed by any CARICOM member country that such a request had in fact been made.”

The result of that was (IMF) imposed severe, draconian “conditionality measures” on a US$100m loan to the government.

 Dr.  Rennie who was the PSA president was wary and critical and stated that public servants would be the one feeling the full effect and force of these IMF measures.  Oil was 9 -10 US dollars a barrel and we were dead broke having squandered the first oil boom!   PSA members were laid off no salary raise nutten.  The fall out started under PNM due to the IMF and not Robbie who was voted in to solve the troubles.

Anyway Back to teh IMF.

Chambers in 1998 was forced to cut 10% off all civil servants pay, reduced subsidies on electricity,water, gas, bus fares, telephones.   No tax breaks and athe following (from google as I could not remember all the exact details :
Quote
a slash in all government subsidies to public utilities (water, electricity, telephone, bus fares), elimination of personal income tax relief and allowances, house rates, taxes fire insurance and maintenance repairs no longer allowed,  reduction of corporation tax from a maximum of 49.5 per cent to a consolidation of 45 per cent,  abolition of tax-free bonds, credit union/co-op shares and Unit Trust deductions, phased reduction of the Negative List, non-charitable deeds of covenant on or before 23 January 1987 not allowed, a limitation on employment expense deductions,  a 100 per cent increase in postage for all mail, internal and external and  whereas, in previous years, students attending the University of the West Indies did not pay any tuition, for the next two years beginning with the 1989 academic year, all students must now pay 10 per cent of their tuition costs.

I personally felt at the time that this was USA retaliation for not towing the Caricom and US line in Grenada when George Chambers exhibited great statesmanship to deny the Washington lies!

The silver fox Basdeo Panday responded to the cuts by saying:
Quote
the 1989 budget “reeks of an IMF prescription” and will cause “massive retrenchment, unemployment and underemployment, resulting in a feeling of hopelessness in our young people, collapsing business in the private sector, escalating losses in private enterprises and a rising crime rate.”

All these unfortunate events led to massive strikes and civil disobedience, calling Chambers duncy in kaiso etc. they even said the cuts in civil servants pay were illegal and unilateral and they were having none of it.  They called the PNM budget oppressive and detrimental to good order and breaking the backs of teachers and civil servants and small businesses.  I doh know if you can recall the day of resistance, I can because I I stayed away from work and we had a fete match in Diamond Vale and my brother got engaged that same day.  Nearly every civil servant stayed home that day!!!

There were rumors that the IMF deliberately manipulated their reports on T&T and the plot seemed more and more real that the Chambers government was being undermined by the USA!


So it as against that backdrop that Robbie and his NAR came into power.  They inherited a morass and mess and did their best.  He came to power with ell over 66% of the vote and the PNM seemed down and out with only three seats.   Manning had to get rid of all the old guard and was fought by Muriel McDonald davidson for the reins of the party.

Robbie was still having to deal with the IMF and an empty treasury..oil was still historically low causing more fiscal austerity measures.  The NAR was in trouble from the time they came to power.  All the belt tightening further salary cuts to civil servant salaries austerity measures....again based on IMF recommendations casued support to dwindle.

The after a year in power we had the MP fighting for leadership, Robbie was pig headed and apparently from reports did not listen well and Panday and 5 old ULF MP's left the government to become independents.   This led to further disenchantment and that is when Abu and he boys saw an opportunity to try they shit.


truetrini

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2013, 06:52:19 PM »
As for the Jamaat and dem:

Randy and he flying squad were officially the hitmen for Eric Williams to deal with NUFF, thatw as Eric Brainchild from de start..he created that.

The flying squad were carrying out governmental extrajudicial killings to start and den became a law unto themselves..killing for cash, systematically eliminating drug dealing competition in an attempt to corner the lucrative, but deadly drug trade in T&T.

Right now we reaping what Burroughs sowed.

I eh know if yuh remember or ever heard of Cuthbert “Scotty” Charles, well he say he saw Burroughs unloading drugs in Carli Bay Couva heself...Burroughs beat that charge but it most probably was true.

Mervyn Cordner, Lance Lashley, Michael Lambert, Thomas Cunningham, Rudolph Leach, Gilbert Reyes and Cecil Carrington  dem was big flying squad men..f**king whichever woman dey wanted...beating people up..dem used to always ketch de wanted men or dey was killed in some dramatic shoot out.

I remeber when Burroughs arrested Naiya Ali, big press conference saying dem and teddy mice Khan was not reaaly fruit dealers but coke dealers, then about 3 years later the Scott Drug Report incriminate Randy and de Flyinf squad to be dealing coke with the same Naya Ali Dole Chadee, Rama the Jammer of San Juan, and Rudolph Mills.

I find it hard that Abu had anything on Burroughs, Abu Bakr was a mounted branch police man and a low level one at that too.  Bakr never get any lands from Indian Muslims on mucurapo road.  the land was supposed to be used for an Islamic Cultural Centre. The land was leased to the Islamic Missionaries Guild back in 1965 I think.

Abu just move in on it...illegally too.  They started to fill in most of the compound and then the government move in and take half of it.  That is waht cause the coup, nothing noble.   You know some of the land then Jamaat took was supposed to be a Greek Orthodox Church?  Them people say nah, we eh want to go there again...lol  afraid of Bakr and dem hoodlums he ahd there.

It is also true that Abdul Kareem was stabbed to death in st james Police station while under police custody!

If true that things were as bad as you making them out be, why was there not popular support for Bakr's treason?   Bakr and you forgetting that T&T is a plural society with different ethnic groups and with many different religions no trini going to support some religious sect attemps to overthrow the government. 

Offline davidephraim

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2013, 10:09:31 PM »
An interesting History lesson form all contributors. Question, all things considered;
Speculating of course!

Was the coup, just an attempt for the PNM government(of that time); to wrestle power back without even that of an election which they probably would have lost due to national sentiment?


 Some reaching i'd say but are there any facts supporting this?
 
Warren N. Boucaud

truetrini

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 10:37:30 PM »
davidephraim, there has been much made of the FACT that both Panday and Manning had advanced knowledge of the impending coup, and as they both excused themselves form the evening session of the parliament that day...some say that bolsters the claim that they had forward knowledge.

There was also some evidence, not sure how credible that several persons were warned about trouble to come that day weeks in advance.

Who knows except the persons involved???

Offline Big Magician

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 11:11:15 PM »
so is it 4-4-2 ???
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Offline just cool

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 06:55:20 AM »
TT i will leave it here although there's a lot of things you sugar coated and over simplified, still i will leave it there.

i know about boroughs very well, maybe better than you. i've seen borough in my yard conducting a raid on a neighbors house 6am. he and his boys was in in our yard back in the seventies with their big machine guns coming for a man who was nothing but ah half arse revolutionary with claims he had guns hidden in his house.

it's ah good thing my father was friends with half the flying squad or else they woulda blow him away when he confronted these strange men in his yard that early in the morning. my old man went out in the yard with ah cutlass bc the dogs was going crazy and rushing the intruders who turn out to be the flying squad.

as for robbie, the man was ah serious c**t, and i want to believe you was wrong about him not going to the IMF. every thing else about chambers i already knew except for him going to the IMF, i will have to look into that.

allyuh take win, maybe i was wrong about a lot of things, but i will never be wrong about revolution. trinidad need some serious revolutionaries to take that country away from crime and corruption, and yeh i was glad when yassen did what he did even though i was here already and did not know the specifics, i was still glad nontheless,

maybe if ah fella like dagga did it and succeed, it might have been a good for the country, bc look where we are now,

we full ah fackin money and the place is in worst condition than when the crown was ruling, talk bout gross mismanagement.  we seriously need a jerry rawlings in trinidad and tobago.




PS: i not only know bout scotty cuthbert charles from deigo martin, i also know of map feable, irwin fontain (aka kaiba), "selo" lewie, barbie bascomb and sticks who's father i used to run errands for and keep his company in his very old age, all these men could attest to boroughs cruelty,

i also know the late winston bruce, and he was one of boroughs pallywals him and snake eye, @ least sooo they say, and all these men could attest to randolph's misgivings, and i was on hand to hear it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:22:31 PM by just cool »
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2013, 11:21:04 AM »
damn but is this a football thread ? Fire on the grounds of football....the man has served his punishment...now in football he strives to serve his country, judge based on his ability or incapability to operate in that arena..else many TT politician that ppl follow over the years should answer to the same questions of treason..they have done far worse than the few re-active even if incorrectly so, ppl to date.

...


This is one of those threads that some ppl will view as being hijacked because the present focus for discussion seemed to have veered away from football (my reading of BM's 4-4-2 comment). However, because Mr. Shabazz is a public figure by virtue of his activities on both fronts (the events of July 1990 and football, the thread isn't in fact hijacked. Although in my view, there is sufficient basis to question Shabazz's continuation in the role of MNT coach based purely on the tactical rendition in Antigua, "Sam" :) ... posted regarding the "terrorist" element and well, here we are.

It would seem pragmatic for the TTFF to have made a public statement regarding Mr. Shabazz's association with the national game in light of persistent lingering discontent tied to his 1990 profile. Such a definitive statement should have come years ago with respect to his rehabilitation into national life. Why would this have been helpful? Among other considerations, it would have placed the issue in proper perspective for the public. It would have also provided a critical point of reference regarding his irksome comments to the Commission of Enquiry (a mere 6 months ago!) and the validity of any such rehabilitation.

However, as things stand ... as I have stated here before ... in the absence of such undertaking by the TTFF, we are merely left with the conclusion that Mr. Shabazz is destined to be a continued feature on our national football landscape ... and indeed, such a conclusion has been sharply drawn home by  Lasana's observation regarding the paradoxical roles played by our dual head coaches on July 27, 1990 ... and to accept such conclusion (as is our way when no one individual asserts a leadership role to the contrary).

Once again, in its infinitely dubious collective wisdom, the TTFF has conspired to make a mockery of thoughtful people. However, let me ask this ... is this sensitivity to Shabazz more prominent now that he's at the helm of the MNT? How muted was it when he was involved with the women's program, and is that not a clear double-standard?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:55:54 AM by asylumseeker »

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 11:51:38 AM »
TT, indulge me a little nah ...  I want to challenge your response to JC ... but before I do so, lehwe make the simple stuff easy ... review the dates in what you've written ... then we can move fwd.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 12:07:24 PM »
As for the Jamaat and dem:

...

I find it hard that Abu had anything on Burroughs, Abu Bakr was a mounted branch police man and a low level one at that too.  Bakr never get any lands from Indian Muslims on mucurapo road.  the land was supposed to be used for an Islamic Cultural Centre. The land was leased to the Islamic Missionaries Guild back in 1965 I think.

Abu just move in on it...illegally too.  They started to fill in most of the compound and then the government move in and take half of it.  That is waht cause the coup, nothing noble.   You know some of the land then Jamaat took was supposed to be a Greek Orthodox Church?  Them people say nah, we eh want to go there again...lol  afraid of Bakr and dem hoodlums he ahd there.
...

JC, you can verify this by reading the testimony given on June 8, 2012.

 http://1990coe.org/ (see under Eleventh Session Transcripts). Page 6.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
However, let me ask this ... is this sensitivity to Shabazz more prominent now that he's at the helm of the MNT? How muted was it when he was involved with the women's program, and is that not a clear double-standard?

No it is not.  As I stated over in the Wired868 Festival thread... Shabazz should be benefiting in no way from ANY source of government funding given his unpunished role in upsetting that very government some 22 years ago.  However, for good or bad the WNT flies below the radar, and even if we were to judge them purely on merit and not public apathy, it is still very much a low-profile position.  His appointment to the MNT position displayed not only a callous disregard for the lingering public antipathy towards Shabazz, in fact it very well could be interpreted as being done IN SPITE OF said lingering public antipathy... a thumbing of their noses in the face of the public.

Offline elan

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 03:23:16 PM »
However, let me ask this ... is this sensitivity to Shabazz more prominent now that he's at the helm of the MNT? How muted was it when he was involved with the women's program, and is that not a clear double-standard?

And even his time with the WNT is bubbling underground and it seems may come to a head pretty soon. Former players are being looked up and questioned about Shabazz time as head coach.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline Bakes

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 05:05:03 PM »
By the way just cool... if yuh wanted to use ah better example of a Yankee terrorist yuh shoulda choose John Brown  ;)

truetrini

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2013, 07:29:56 PM »
However, let me ask this ... is this sensitivity to Shabazz more prominent now that he's at the helm of the MNT? How muted was it when he was involved with the women's program, and is that not a clear double-standard?

And even his time with the WNT is bubbling underground and it seems may come to a head pretty soon. Former players are being looked up and questioned about Shabazz time as head coach.

I hear that too...sex scandal brewing! 

Offline Bakes

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2013, 08:10:59 PM »
I hear that too...sex scandal brewing! 

What sex scandal?  In Trinidad there is no such thing as a "sex scandal" unless it involves little boys.  Everybody else is fair game, even school girls.  It will have man here who will bawl "leave that outta football, focus on de 4-4-2". 

Or "dem li'l gyul and dem fass with deyself, dem brushing big man... me eh blame Jamaal if he brush some ah dem hard back gyul and dem.  But de man could coach."

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2013, 04:05:34 PM »
Time for this thread to resurface?

Nashy

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Re: Fire Jamaal Shabazz Thread.
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »
Fire SHabazz in the same manner the Jamaat fired the old police headquarters.

 

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