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Offline Observer

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Playmaker
« on: December 19, 2008, 08:49:09 AM »
Since we have some very interesting and thoughtful subjects on the forum. Here is one for us to discuss.

The traditional playmaker role #10 operated behind the striker or twin strikers.

When did we see the emergence of the playmaker (not necessarily 10) in unconventional positions.

Example: Zizou for France played in the classic positiion but when he moved to Real he was used on the left.
Ribery presently operates as a playmaker on the right
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Offline acb

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 08:51:12 AM »
Milan's predicament with Ronaldinho and Kaka on the field at the same time.
Somebody have to salt.
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Offline palos

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM »
Milan's predicament with Ronaldinho and Kaka on the field at the same time.
Somebody have to salt.

When Kaka plays, Milan don't lose.

When he doesn't play, they lose. 
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Offline Filho

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »
I think teams have played without a traditional #10 for a long time, but not consistently. It was usually a cASe of making the best with what you have. Maradona was the first unconventional playmaker I could remember (my age being the main factor), but Argentina today has Riquelme pulling the strings. I think Brazil was the first (high profile) national team to purposefully eradicate the traditional #10. The losses in WC 1982 and 1986 mash up dat country bad. They revolutionize the entire philosophy of their football in the space of four short years. By the time WC 1990 came around, the playmaker was Valdo out on the left. The rest of midfield was Dunga, Alemao and Mauro Galvao. Wing backs Branco and Jorginho were expected to provide more attacking impetus than anyone in central midfield. Ironic since you get the feeling that no country valued the central midfielder as playmaker as much as Brazil. In 1994, Carlos Alberto Parreira tried to revert, but the failure of Rai was basically the end of the traditional #10 for Brazil. Even so..Rai's role was limited and only looked like a #10 in a positional sense. By then, Dunga, a deep lying holding/defensive midfielder was entrusted to dictate the pace of the game and start most attacks from deep.

Offline jai john

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 08:47:01 PM »
Boca Juniors beat San Lorenzo 3-1 to close in on Argentine league title

3 hours ago

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Late goals from Rodrigo Palacio and Cristian Chavez helped Boca Juniors win 3-1 over a San Lorenzo squad weakened by two red cards in the Argentine playoff race on Saturday.

The victory puts the Buenos Aires club in position to clinch the Apertura title with just a draw on Tuesday, when it plays Tigre in the final match of a round-robin to break a three-way logjam at the top of the regular season standings.

Lucas Viatri opened the scoring for Boca shortly before halftime with a header off a corner kick from Juan Roman Riquelme, but Santiago Solari tied the score in the 60th minute.

Palacio gave the blue and gold the lead for good in the 76th, and Chavez sealed the result two minutes into stoppage time.

San Lorenzo played the final minutes with just nine men after the expulsion of defender Gaston Aguirre (79) and forward Gonzalo Bergessio (87).

San Lorenzo defeated Tigre 2-1 in the first match of the round-robin on Wednesday

They forget to say that is Riquleme who give Palacio de tap een for de second !

It eh make sense to start another Boca thread so ah slipping this in de playmaker thread ....just so Palos could read it.
Is long time Palos eh hear bout Riquelme so he start this thread to pull meh out.
Well boy Palos ..yuh succeeded ...you talking bout playmaker ...well it eh have many around these days !!
Filho said Brazil dropped that long time ago ..is true ...but dais because they didn't have any ! Since de days of Dr Socrates , Brazil has not produced that player who controls the game by dictating the pace and through whom the team plays.
the germans got rid of the system after paul breitner and Lothar matheus, though the latter was more defensive than most.
the english never liked the system since the departure of bobby charlton. they never accepted one of the best in the role , hoddle, preferring the strong hard runners and tacklers.
the French will always look for one with Platini and Zidane the two most known ..but they eh easy to find.
Which brings us back to Maradona, Riquelme, Ardiles, fernando Redondo, Ricki Villa, Aimar, Messi ..just to name a few.
now when you producing these players it difficult to say you eh playing dat system. In fact all clubs in argentina play with an " enganche " it is the name given to that player who sits behind the two forwards and is the schemer on the team.
I am sure everyone remembers Cruyff and arie hann for holland. there were also neeskins and of course Rudd Gullit.
It is a beautiful thing to see these guys in action. Who can ever forget Zidane ..poetry in motion....and riquelme of course !!! Palos you shoudda see yuh boy in action today !!!
i really would hate for the game to  become just a contact sprint ! ...you see my teams Villareal, Boca, argentina, spurs ..they all play with style.

Offline Tallman

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How is interpretation of the playmaker role changing?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 11:22:25 AM »
How is interpretation of the playmaker role changing?
By Jonathan Wilson (guardian.co.uk)


Perhaps no position is undergoing such evolution so rapidly as the playmaker – or, as it is probably more accurate to call him in his present guise, the creative midfielder. This week, the Champions League quarter-finals seemed almost to showcase the changing interpretations of the position – albeit in the most modern case in unfortunately truncated form.

After their thoroughly empathetic 2-0 win over Juventus this week, there can have been only two niggles for Bayern Munich: first that they only scored twice having dominated so utterly, and second that Toni Kroos's muscle tear will keep him out for six weeks.

Kroos is a phenomenon, perhaps the archetype of the modern attacking midfielder, and while Bayern won't miss him for the rest of the Bundesliga season – a draw against Eintracht Frankfurt on Saturday will secure the title with six games remaining – and should be able to cope comfortably enough without him in the second leg, it will be a major disadvantage to be without him for the Champions League semi-final.

Kroos is 23, just five years younger than Wesley Sneijder, but even in a week in which he was forced off after 16 minutes, the contrast between them was clear. Sneijder once seemed the future but at just the age he should be at his peak, he seemingly decided to reinvent himself as a classic playmaker. On Wednesday, yet again, he looked an anachronism and was taken off at half-time having effectively allowed Xabi Alonso to dictate the first half. And that despite Fatih Terim, the Galatasaray coach, changing his system to create a role for a No10 over the past few weeks.

By contrast, Kroos is dynamic and hardworking. He can play at the back of midfield or at the front, in the centre or on the flank. He could almost certainly play as a box-to-box midfielder in a 4-4-2 if he ever were asked to do something so archaic. He is creative without being flash, breaks up play without being violent. He is physically robust without being a monster and astute in possession without over-reaching. He has an understated efficiency that means he probably isn't appreciated as much as he ought to be.

Kroos's statistics in the Bundesliga this season are extraordinary. He has a pass success rate of 89.7%, placing him fourth in the overall standings according to whoscored.com; the three players above him – Dante, Roel Brouwers and Luis Gustavo – are central defenders or defensive midfielders, many of whose passes will be simple short one to players who attempt riskier balls. That Kroos is playing passes that hurt the opposition is seen by his ratio of 2.8 key passes per game – third in the overall listings – eight of which have led directly to goals, placing him joint seventh in the overall chart. His ratio of 0.5 accurate through-balls per game places him joint second in the overall standings, behind only Diego of Wolfsburg.

Bayern's sporting director Matthias Sammer said after Saturday's 9-2 win over Hamburg – in which, without irony, he criticised his side for conceding twice for corners – that Bayern had to make themselves machines for winning football matches; Kroos is essentially a machine for passing, excelling both in pass selection and execution. Given his willingness to close down opponents, he is the perfect attacking midfielder for Bayern.

If Kroos is the future and Sneijder the past, the present is perhaps represented by the 24-year-old Mesut Ozil. He doesn't quite have the defensive capacities of Kroos, but he is far harder working than Sneijder. In La Liga he averages a tackle and 0.5 interceptions per game – respectable figures, particularly given how dominant Real Madrid often are – while his creative work was exceptional against Galatasaray, albeit with the benefit of a lax performance, in the first half at least, from Felipe Melo.

He averages three key passes per game, the highest rating in Spain, and has nine assists. The major difference from Kroos is his pass success rate – just 83.3%, the 40th best in la Liga – although the fact he averages 0.6 accurate through-balls per game suggests that is more because he is attempting more difficult passes than necessarily because he is incapable of the sort of ball retention of Kroos.

To an extent, of course, players are conditioned by the systems in which they play. Kroos works perfectly in the Bayern mechanics, while Ozil thrives in a looser system at Real, where he must always be mindful of where Cristiano Ronaldo is (both so he doesn't duplicate his runs and because Ronaldo inevitably draws defenders to him). Galatasaray seem not to have worked out how to play Sneijder – just as Inter struggled to accommodate him towards the end. His time has gone; the era of Ozil is here, while Kroos's is just beginning.
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Offline Big Magician

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 10:50:18 PM »
interesting...Wilson is a good write and scribe of note
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 11:02:32 PM »
interesting...Wilson is a good write and scribe of note

His analysis is nothing short of brilliant to a casual observer like myself... I'm sure those more in the know might think otherwise.  Good post Tallman, remembering this discussion.  Coutinho has currently taken hold of the playmaker role at Liverpool in his brief stay... and he does so largely from a wing position.  Victor Moses seems to float in and out of the playmaker role at Chelsea, depending on whether Mata is on the field at the same time or not.

Offline g

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2013, 09:53:20 AM »
Throw Michael Carrick into the mix, everything goes through him for Man U. It's almost laughable when teams continue to allow him to dictate play from a deeper position. Man U struggles to play when he is  marked out of the game.

Same for Sissoko at Newcastle (plays a bit further up).

While Santi Carzola maybe the playmaker, Jack Wilshire I find gives more impetus to the Arsenal attack with driving runs, lacks a bit of the passing at times though but he is more in the Kroos mould.

Similar to Arsenal, Man City's David Silva and Yaya Toure also contrast the same way but Yaya is an excellent playmaker in his own right. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 09:56:20 AM by g »
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Offline palos

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 11:57:59 AM »
Who is Barca's playmaker?

Xavi?

Iniesta?

Messi?

Fabergas?

Busquets??


Is Cristiano Ronaldo a playmaker or a goalscorer?

Van Persie?

Was Dwight Yorker a playmaker or a striker?

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 11:59:43 AM by palos »
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Offline King Deese

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 10:18:59 AM »
We all know that the player wearing the #10 jersey is the playmaker or the difference maker if you will. He is the player that can make things happen at any moment in the game. That player is usually a center mid or a forward. Could be a winger but that is rarely the case. He never plays in defence as in Anthony Wolfe's case. Not until Pele came along did that jersey take on real significance.
Well fast forward that jersey to the Trinidad and Tobago football system. They have somehow found a new meaning for that jersey and a new position that borders on a level of distaste.
Take the just concluded failed attempt by this federation to qualify for another world cup and the aforementioned jersey worn by a player who spends the entire tournament on the bench in Matthew Woo Ling. This kid played the role of mascot and bench warmer instead of playmaker. If he wasn't good enough to make a difference on the field then why select him and then to compound matters even further why give him the #10 jersey? Incredible.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 10:22:11 AM by King Deese »
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Offline Football supporter

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Re: Playmaker
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 11:06:57 AM »
interesting...Wilson is a good write and scribe of note

His analysis is nothing short of brilliant to a casual observer like myself... I'm sure those more in the know might think otherwise.  Good post Tallman, remembering this discussion.  Coutinho has currently taken hold of the playmaker role at Liverpool in his brief stay... and he does so largely from a wing position.  Victor Moses seems to float in and out of the playmaker role at Chelsea, depending on whether Mata is on the field at the same time or not.

Victor Moses was massive as a teenager at Crystal Palace. Rarely have I seen such maturity and poise in one so young. I really hope he develops well and pushes on to fill the hole that Lampard will leave (I'm not talking positionally, but as a crowd hero and talisman)

 

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