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Author Topic: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations  (Read 15111 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2013, 02:12:22 PM »
Meh - I'll wait to see how this thing plays out. I idea that this level of surveillance was taking place with the public unbeknownst is what most people (probably) take ire with. I agree with what you said about the UK and their CCTV - I find it ridiculous but yet they seem to have a way of justifying it. And I know the Guardian was the first or one of the first to break the story, but they're usually always very in-depth so their coverage of this isn't out of the ordinary.

How do you monitor for illegal activity while broadcasting to the public that you're monitoring for illegal activity?  That neither prevents nor deters crime... all it does is force the criminals to find a new way to conduct their criminal activities.  The whole point is to catch them and prosecute them.  If in doing so their confederates realize that it have monitoring taking place then good.. but at least yuh ferret out and put away some of them, hopefully high-ranking members in the process.  The public doesn't have to know everything... this is why elected leaders were consulted... they are our proxies in government.  Whether you want to believe him or not, Obama said that each and every member of Congress was apprised on the email monitoring. 

As for the telephone records, not everyone was apprised, but members of the respective intelligence committees were made fully aware.  These committee members were appointed from the entire Congressional body... so in essence are representatives of the Representatives.  If people can't trust their elected leaders then they need to get them out of office and elect more trustworthy representatives. 

I like the Guardian but I normally take their criticism of the US with a grain of salt because they love to harp on US foreign policy, and seem doubly-critical of Obama.  In short they're no different from some of these liberal idiots here in the US who expect Obama to close  Guantanamo yesterday, pass laws in favor of gay marriage, go after the big banks, raise taxes on the rich and never negotiate with the Republicans.  This is no exaggeration... read the political commentary enough as I do and you'll see that for yourself.  Glen Greenwald is even more ridiculous than this... his criticism border on the absurd at times, but I guess that's why The Guardian hired him from Salon.

Offline kounty

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2013, 02:41:32 PM »
Edward Snowden Q&A:

Then he calling Manning a "whistleblower" who was concerned about the public good.  How... by leaking diplomatic files that do nothing but embarrass the US government by showing them talking bad in private about the very people they feteing in public?  By disclosing information about, including the identities of undercover assets around the world?  How is that even remotely "inspired by the public good"?

video of helicopter pilot randomly shooting at civilians in Iraq and laughing over it and men ketchin kicks ?

There have not been any cyber attacks against any foreign interests from the US because the US government aggressively prosecutes such actions. Meanwhile in the past year alone US entities, be it government agencies or private sector companies have been under withering attack from Iran and of late China. 
Oh, Karspersky must have gotten it mixed up on where Flame came from then. Thanks for the correction.

Also: a) I know that downtown Atlanta is under CCTV and I'd be very surprised if it is the only city in the US. That's far different from what the gov't is accused of here unbeknownst to the public.
b) I might know a lil bit more about data mining and clustering than the average person, so I know that far, far too often it is wrong. So what you end up with is profiling at best.

Thank God for dudes like these. I still want to know why those two kids were targeted on 31st Oct 2011. A little sliver of real freedom of information (not no 'trust us we have your best interest at heart'). - Get the terrorists really jealous of "our freedom". ;)

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2013, 04:50:57 PM »
video of helicopter pilot randomly shooting at civilians in Iraq and laughing over it and men ketchin kicks ?


Are you this dense for real... or is this some kind of elaborate act?  Do you honestly think that that helicopter attack footage is the sum and totality of the Manning leaks?  Do you even know what the word "diplomatic" means or how it fits in this context?  Come back when you find a clue.

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Oh, Karspersky must have gotten it mixed up on where Flame came from then. Thanks for the correction.

Like I said... go find a clue.  Kaspersky didn't cite the origin of attack as the US.  Most, including the Israeli government have acknowledged that Israel was the most likely nation-state culprit.  When yuh have something to add to the discussion come back and let us know.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2013, 05:30:52 PM »
I really could have highlighted the entire thing.  Long but well worth the read if for no other reason, for an exploration of the issues.





We are shocked, shocked…


07 JUN

Is it just me or does the entire news media — as well as all the agitators and self-righteous bloviators on both sides of the aisle — not understand even the rudiments of electronic intercepts and the manner in which law enforcement actually uses such intercepts? It would seem so.

Because the national eruption over the rather inevitable and understandable collection of all raw data involving telephonic and internet traffic by Americans would suggest that much of our political commentariat, many of our news gatherers and a lot of average folk are entirely without a clue.

You would think that the government was listening in to the secrets of 200 million Americans from the reaction and the hyperbole being tossed about. And you would think that rather than a legal court order which is an inevitable consequence of legislation that we drafted and passed, something illegal had been discovered to the government’s shame.

Nope. Nothing of the kind. Though apparently, the U.K.’s Guardian, which broke this faux-scandal, is unrelenting in its desire to scale the heights of self-congratulatory hyperbole. Consider this from Glenn Greenwald, the author of the piece: “What this court order does that makes it so striking is that it’s not directed at any individual…it’s collecting the phone records of every single customer of Verizon business and finding out every single call they’ve made…it’s indiscriminate and it’s sweeping.”

Having labored as a police reporter in the days before the Patriot Act, I can assure all there has always been a stage before the wiretap, a preliminary process involving the capture, retention and analysis of raw data. It has been so for decades now in this country. The only thing new here, from a legal standpoint, is the scale on which the FBI and NSA are apparently attempting to cull anti-terrorism leads from that data. But the legal and moral principles? Same old stuff.

Allow for a comparable example, dating to the early 1980s in a place called Baltimore, Maryland.

There, city detectives once began to suspect that major traffickers were using a combination of public pay phones and digital pagers to communicate their business. And they took their suspicions to a judge and obtained court orders — not to monitor any particular suspect, but to instead cull the dialed numbers from the thousands and thousands of calls made to and from certain city pay phones.

Think about it. There is certainly a public expectation of privacy when you pick up a pay phone on the streets of Baltimore, is there not? And certainly, the detectives knew that many, many Baltimoreans were using those pay phones for legitimate telephonic communication. Yet, a city judge had no problem allowing them to place dialed-number recorders on as many pay phones as they felt the need to monitor, knowing that every single number dialed to or from those phones would be captured. So authorized, detectives gleaned the numbers of digital pagers and they began monitoring the incoming digitized numbers on those pagers — even though they had yet to learn to whom those pagers belonged. The judges were okay with that, too, and signed another order allowing the suspect pagers to be “cloned” by detectives, even though in some cases the suspect in possession of the pager was not yet positively identified.

All of that — even in the less fevered, pre-Patriot Act days of yore — was entirely legal. Why?

Because they aren’t listening to the calls.


It’s at that point, people, that law enforcement requires a full-throated argument of probable cause. It’s at that point that privacy rights must be seriously measured against the legitimate investigate needs of law enforcement. And it’s at that point that the potential for authoritarian overreach becomes significant.

I know it’s big and scary that the government wants a data base of all phone calls. And it’s scary that they’re paying attention to the internet. And it’s scary that your cell phones have GPS installed. And it’s scary, too, that the little box that lets you go through the short toll lane on I-95 lets someone, somewhere know that you are on the move. Privacy is in decline around the world, largely because technology and big data have matured to the point where it is easy to create a net that monitors many daily interactions. Sometimes the data is valuable for commerce — witness those facebook ads for Italian shoes that my wife must endure — and sometimes for law enforcement and national security. But be honest, most of us are grudging participants in this dynamic. We want the cell phones. We like the internet. We don’t want to sit in the slow lane at the Harbor Tunnel toll plaza.

The question is not should the resulting data exist. It does. And it forever will, to a greater and greater extent. And therefore, the present-day question can’t seriously be this: Should law enforcement in the legitimate pursuit of criminal activity pretend that such data does not exist. The question is more fundamental: Is government accessing the data for the legitimate public safety needs of the society, or are they accessing it in ways that abuse individual liberties and violate personal privacy — and in a manner that is unsupervised.

And to that, the Guardian and those who are wailing jeremiads about this pretend-discovery of U.S. big data collection are noticeably silent. We don’t know of any actual abuse. No known illegal wiretaps, no indications of FISA-court approved intercepts of innocent Americans that occurred because weak probable cause was acceptable. Mark you, that stuff may be happening. As happens the case with all law enforcement capability, it will certainly happen at some point, if it hasn’t already. Any data asset that can be properly and legally invoked, can also be misused — particularly without careful oversight. But that of course has always been the case with electronic surveillance of any kind.

Keep in mind that the FISA court was created as a means of having some definitive oversight into a world that previously had been entirely unregulated, and wiretapping abuses by the U.S. executive branch and by law enforcement agencies were in fact the raison d’etre for the creation of FISA and a federal panel of judges to review national security requests for electronic surveillance. Is it perfect? Of course not. Is it problematic that the court’s rulings are not public? Surely.

But the fact remains that for at least the last two presidential administrations, this kind of data collection has been a baseline logic of an American anti-terrorism effort that is effectively asked to find the needles before they are planted into haystacks, to prevent even such modest, grass-rooted conspiracies as the Boston Marathon Bombing before they occur.

So think for a minute about a scenario in which, say, a phone number is identified overseas as being linked to terror activity. It is so identified by, say, NSA overseas intercepts or through intelligence gathering by the CIA or the military. And say that there exists a database of billions and billions of telephonic contacts in the United States over a period of months or years. And say a computer could then run the suspect number through that data base and determine a pattern of communication between that overseas phone and several individuals in New York, or Boston, or Detroit. Would you want that connection to be made and made quickly? Or do you want to leave law enforcement to begin trying to acquire the call history on that initial phone from overseas carriers who may or may not maintain detailed retroactive call data or be unwilling to even provide that data fully to American law enforcement or do so without revealing the investigative effort to the targets themselves?

Keep in mind that law enforcement must still establish probable cause to then begin to actually monitor conversations on the domestic numbers, and that this request for electronic surveillance is then, of course, subject to judicial review by the FISA court.

Yes, I can hear the panicked libertarians and liberals and Obama-haters wailing in rare unison: But what about all the innocent Americans caught up in this voracious, overreaching dragnet? To which the answer is obvious if you think about the scale of this: What dragnet?

Your son’s devotional calls to 1-900-BEATOFF? Your daughter’s call from the STD clinic? Your brother-in-law calling you from his office at Goldman with that whispered insider-tip on that biomed stock? Is that what you’re worried about?

Take a deep breath and think:

When the government grabs the raw data thousands of phone calls, they’re probably going to examine those calls. They’re going to look to establish a pattern of behavior to justify more investigation and ultimately, if they can, elevate their surveillance to actual monitoring of conversations. Sure enough.

When the government grabs every single f**king telephone call made from the United States over a period of months and years, it is not a prelude to monitoring anything in particular. Why not? Because that is tens of billions of phone calls and for the love of god, how many agents do you think the FBI has? How many computer-runs do you think the NSA can do — and then specifically analyze and assess each result? When the government asks for something, it is notable to wonder what they are seeking and for what purpose. When they ask for everything, it is not for specific snooping or violations of civil rights, but rather a data base that is being maintained as an investigative tool.

There are reasons to object to governmental overreach in the name of law enforcement and anti-terrorism. And it is certainly problematic that our national security apparatus demands a judicial review of our law enforcement activity behind closed doors, but again, FISA is a basic improvement on the preceding vacuum it replaced. Certainly — and I find myself in rare agreement with the Rand Pauls of the world on this one — we might be more incensed at the notion of an American executive branch firing missles at U.S. citizens and killing them without the benefit of even an in absentia legal proceeding. Or ashamed at a racially-targeted sentencing guideline that subjects rock cocaine users to seventeen times the penalty of powdered-cocaine users? Or aghast at a civil forfeiture logic that allows government to seize private property and then requires citizens to prove a negative — that it was not purchased with money from ill-gotten gains.

There is a lot of authoritarian overreach in American society, both from the drug war and the war on terror.

But those planes really did hit those buildings. And that bomb did indeed blow up at the finish line of the Boston marathon. And we really are in a continuing, low-intensity, high-risk conflict with a diffuse, committed and ideologically-motivated enemy.
And for a moment, just imagine how much bloviating would be wafting across our political spectrum if, in the wake of an incident of domestic terrorism, an American president and his administration had failed to take full advantage of the existing telephonic data to do what is possible to find those needles in the haystacks. After all, we as a people, through our elected representatives, drafted and passed FISA and the Patriot Act and what has been done here, with Verizon and assuredly with other carriers, is possible under that legislation. Indeed, one Republican author of the law, who was quoted as saying he didn’t think the Patriot Act would be so used, has, in this frantic little moment of national overstatement, revealed himself to be either a political coward or an incompetent legislator. He asked for this. We asked for this. We did so because we measured the reach and possible overreach of law enforcement against the risks of terrorism and made a conscious choice.

Frankly, I’m a bit amazed that the NSA and FBI have their shit together enough to be consistently doing what they should be doing with the vast big-data stream of electronic communication. For us, now — years into this war-footing and this legal dynamic — to loudly proclaim our indignation at the maintenance of an essential and comprehensive investigative database while at the same time insisting on a proactive response to the inevitable attempts at terrorism is as childish as it is obtuse. We want cake, we want to eat it, and we want to stay skinny and never puke up a thing. Of course we do.

When the Guardian, or the Washington Post or the New York Times editorial board — which displayed an astonishing ignorance of the realities of modern electronic surveillance in its quick, shallow wade into this non-controversy — are able to cite the misuse of the data for reasons other than the interception of terrorist communication, or to show that Americans actually had their communications monitored without sufficient probable cause and judicial review and approval of that monitoring, then we will have ourselves a nice, workable scandal. It can certainly happen, and given that the tension between national security and privacy is certain and constant, it probably will happen at points. And in fairness, having the FISA courts rulings so hidden from citizen review, makes even the discovery of such misuse problematic. The internal review of that court’s rulings needs to be somehow aggressive and independent, while still preserving national security secrets. That’s very tricky.

But this? Please. This is bullshit.

In Baltimore thirty years ago, after the detectives figured out which pay phones were dialing pagers, and then did all the requisite background checks and surveillance to identify the drug suspects, they finally went to a judge and asked for a wiretap on several pay phones. The judge looked at the police work and said, okay, you can record calls off those public pay phones, but only if you have someone watching the phones to ensure that your suspects are making the calls and not ordinary citizens. And if you make a mistake and record a non-drug-involved call, you will of course “minimize” the call and cease recording.

It was at that point — and not at the earlier stage of gathering thousands and thousands of dialed numbers and times of call — that the greatest balance was sought between investigative need and privacy rights. And in Baltimore, that wiretap case was made and the defendants caught and convicted, the case upheld on appeal. Here, too, the Verizon data corresponds to the sheets and sheets of printouts of calls from the Baltimore pay phones, obtainable with a court order and without any demonstration of probable cause against any specific individual. To get that far as a law-abiding investigator, you didn’t need to know a target, only that the electronic medium is being used for telephonic communication that is both illegal and legal. It’s at the point of actually identifying specific targets and then seeking to listen to the conversations of those targets that the rubber really hits the road.

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 05:32:46 PM by Bakes »

Offline kounty

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2013, 07:11:05 PM »
video of helicopter pilot randomly shooting at civilians in Iraq and laughing over it and men ketchin kicks ?


Are you this dense for real... or is this some kind of elaborate act?  Do you honestly think that that helicopter attack footage is the sum and totality of the Manning leaks?  Do you even know what the word "diplomatic" means or how it fits in this context?  Come back when you find a clue.
implied where (by me)? one example bro.  granai air strike? afghan war logs (previously unreported civilian killings etc), etc, etc. I don't trust your babylon to kill on my family behalf bro. those dudes are UNtrustworthy and NEED oversight. no matter how loud and obnoxious you become, or how much you present opinion as more than....opinion.

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Oh, Karspersky must have gotten it mixed up on where Flame came from then. Thanks for the correction.

Like I said... go find a clue.  Kaspersky didn't cite the origin of attack as the US.  Most, including the Israeli government have acknowledged that Israel was the most likely nation-state culprit.  When yuh have something to add to the discussion come back and let us know.
again, opinion. but I really haven't seen any reports that claims that Israel built flame by itself. All say it started in the US.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2013, 07:53:48 PM »
implied where (by me)? one example bro.  granai air strike? afghan war logs (previously unreported civilian killings etc), etc, etc. I don't trust your babylon to kill on my family behalf bro. those dudes are UNtrustworthy and NEED oversight. no matter how loud and obnoxious you become, or how much you present opinion as more than....opinion.

The program is overseen by representatives from all three branches of the goverment: Executive, Legislative... Judiciary.  Who else should we trust with this sensitive information... you?

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again, opinion. but I really haven't seen any reports that claims that Israel built flame by itself. All say it started in the US.


You will see what you want to see, and not see what you don't want to see.  Call me "obnoxious" all yuh like, I just don't have time for bullshit, and you offering it in copious amounts.  Yuh first opportunity to offer comment on the issue was to make some schoolboy "big brother" comment.  Now you want to be taken seriously?  GTFOH

Offline Toppa

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelationsctie
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2013, 08:21:09 PM »
Europeans are crying foul, apparently the US collection of data on EU citizens is illegal in the respective countries.

 http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/10/obama-pressured-explain-nsa-surveillance
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2013, 09:16:37 PM »
I could definitely see why they might be concerned... but if the communication involves someone in the US then I'm not sure the EU countries have much of an argument on that... the US has a right to monitor that traffic (within reason).  I'm not sure that the tech companies have a choice but to comply given that they are headquartered in and subject to US jurisdiction.

Offline kounty

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 12:01:59 PM »

The program is overseen by representatives from all three branches of the goverment: Executive, Legislative... Judiciary.  Who else should we trust with this sensitive information... you?

as a matter of fact. yes. the gov't could have 27 branches, I don't care. I do not want MY information collected and stored by the gov't. I think a little less than half the US population take my stance as of right now (numbers subject to change as the debate goes on).

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again, opinion. but I really haven't seen any reports that claims that Israel built flame by itself. All say it started in the US.


You will see what you want to see, and not see what you don't want to see.  Call me "obnoxious" all yuh like, I just don't have time for bullshit, and you offering it in copious amounts.  Yuh first opportunity to offer comment on the issue was to make some schoolboy "big brother" comment.  Now you want to be taken seriously?  GTFOH
so the new york times: "Those developers have never been identified, but researchers have cited intriguing bits of digital evidence that point to a joint American-Israeli effort to undermine Iran’s efforts to build a nuclear bomb" and washington post say that they talk to the researchers from kaspersky and symantec who say America involved, yet you seeming to suggest I being far out and choosy in the results?  You have a more reliable source in your back pocket somewhere? Dude, I hope is only time people doesn't have to be calling you out on half the stuff you does be trying to pass off on here.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2013, 01:01:09 PM »
as a matter of fact. yes. the gov't could have 27 branches, I don't care. I do not want MY information collected and stored by the gov't. I think a little less than half the US population take my stance as of right now (numbers subject to change as the debate goes on).

Like I give two shits what size of the US population agrees with you.  At one point half the US population didn't think yuh had a right to vote either.  Pretty lame appeal to majority... and not even a majority at that.


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so the new york times: "Those developers have never been identified, but researchers have cited intriguing bits of digital evidence that point to a joint American-Israeli effort to undermine Iran’s efforts to build a nuclear bomb" and washington post say that they talk to the researchers from kaspersky and symantec who say America involved, yet you seeming to suggest I being far out and choosy in the results?  You have a more reliable source in your back pocket somewhere? Dude, I hope is only time people doesn't have to be calling you out on half the stuff you does be trying to pass off on here.

You have problems with comprehension or what?? Do you know the difference between "from the US" and "BY the US"? 

There have not been any cyber attacks against any foreign interests from the US because the US government aggressively prosecutes such actions. Meanwhile in the past year alone US entities, be it government agencies or private sector companies have been under withering attack from Iran and of late China.

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again, opinion. but I really haven't seen any reports that claims that Israel built flame by itself. All say it started in the US.

Not even the links you provided say that the virus "started in the US" as you claiming.  Clearly this was an Israeli-led effort, and even the Israeli's have given up the denials... whether there were Americans involved or not is immaterial to the fact that cyber attacks are vigorously prosecuted here. Continue trying to "call me out" on what I post.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2013, 07:12:43 PM »
Well if there's any doubt as to which side of the Whistleblower/Traitor divide this fella stands... this should help resolve it.



June 14, 2013


Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate
By KEITH BRADSHER


HONG KONG — The decision by a former National Security Agency contractor to divulge classified data about the United States government’s surveillance of computers in mainland China and Hong Kong has complicated his legal position, but may also make China’s security apparatus more interested in helping him stay here, law and security experts said on Friday.

The South China Morning Post, a local newspaper, reported on Friday that Edward J. Snowden, the contractor, had shared detailed data showing the dates and Internet Protocol addresses of specific computers in mainland China and Hong Kong that the National Security Agency penetrated over the last four years. The data also showed whether the agency was still breaking into these computers, the success rates for hacking and other operational information.

Mr. Snowden told the newspaper that the computers were in the civilian sector. But Western experts have long said that the dividing line between the civilian sector and the government is very blurry in China. State-owned or state-controlled enterprises still control much of the economy, and virtually all are run by Communist Party cadres who tend to rotate back and forth between government and corporate jobs every few years as part of elaborate career development procedures.

Kevin Egan, a former prosecutor here who has represented people fighting extradition to the United States, said that Mr. Snowden’s latest disclosures would make it harder for him to fight an expected request by the United States for him to be turned over to American law enforcement. “He’s digging his own grave with a very large spade,” he said.

But a person with longstanding ties to mainland Chinese military and intelligence agencies said that Mr. Snowden’s latest disclosures showed that he and his accumulated documents could be valuable to China, particularly if Mr. Snowden chooses to cooperate with mainland authorities.

“The idea is very tempting, but how do you do that, unless he defects,” said the person, who spoke anonymously because of the diplomatic delicacy of the case. “It all depends on his attitude.”

The person declined to comment on whether Chinese intelligence agencies would obtain copies of all of Mr. Snowden’s computer files anyway if he were arrested by the Hong Kong police pursuant to a warrant from the United States, where the Justice Department has already been reviewing possible charges against him.

A Hong Kong Police Force spokeswoman said earlier this week that any arrest would have to be carried out by the Hong Kong police and not by foreign law enforcement. The Hong Kong police have a responsibility to share with mainland China anything of intelligence value that they find during raids or seizures of evidence, according to law enforcement experts.

Patricia Ho, a lawyer who specializes in political asylum at Daly and Associates, a Hong Kong law firm, said that if Beijing decides that it wants Mr. Snowden to stay in Hong Kong for a long time, the simplest way to do so would be for mainland officials to quietly tell Hong Kong’s government officials not to hurry the legal process.

The United States and China have long accused each other of monitoring each other’s computer networks for national security reasons. The United States has also accused China of hacking to harvest technological secrets and commercial data on a broad scale from American companies and transferring that information to Chinese companies to give them a competitive advantage.

Tom Billington, an independent cybersecurity specialist in Washington, said that mainland China could benefit by obtaining a copy of the data that Mr. Snowden gave to The South China Morning Post. The data, if independently verified, could help Chinese officials figure out which computers have been hacked, patch security holes, itemize compromised data, analyze the quality of computer security defenses and develop techniques for hardening other Chinese computers against future surveillance by the N.S.A.

“He’s an American, but he is putting America at grave risk,” Mr. Billington said.

According to The Guardian newspaper of Britain, Mr. Snowden showed up with four laptop computers for a meeting with its journalists in Hong Kong. But The Los Angeles Times has reported that Mr. Snowden originally smuggled electronic files out of the National Security Agency in Hawaii using a USB thumb drive.

Simon Young, the director of the Center for Comparative and Public Law at the University of Hong Kong, said in a statement that it would be a violation of Hong Kong law to disclose any information that had been shared confidentially by the Hong Kong or mainland Chinese governments with the United States.

“These recent developments underline the importance of Mr. Snowden obtaining immediate legal advice in Hong Kong, especially before any further disclosures are made,” Mr. Young said.

Mr. Young did not suggest whether any of the data shared by Mr. Snowden would fall into this category. But the Hong Kong government has a history of close law enforcement cooperation with the United States, particularly in the area of counterterrorism. The Hong Kong police have long focused on trying to prevent the territory’s freewheeling financial system from becoming a base for Al Qaeda-related money laundering.

The South China Morning Post said that one target of N.S.A. hacking identified by Mr. Snowden was the Chinese University of Hong Kong, which hosts the city’s main hub for Internet connections to the rest of the world. “The University has not detected any form of hacking to the network, which has been running normally,” the university said in a statement.

The newspaper said that it had not independently verified the accuracy of the data that Mr. Snowden provided. But the United States government has not questioned the authenticity of any of the documents he has released.

The Global Times, a nationalistic mainland Chinese newspaper under direct control of the Communist Party, published an editorial on Friday calling for China to glean as much information as possible from him.

“Snowden is a ‘card’ that China never expected,” the commentary said. “But China is neither adept at nor used to playing it.”

The commentary also called for China and Hong Kong to treat Mr. Snowden kindly enough so that others with national security secrets will not be discouraged from fleeing here. “China should make sure that Hong Kong is not the last place where other ‘Snowdens’ want to go,” it said.

The Associated Press reported on Friday that Britain had issued an alert to airlines around the world warning them not to bring Mr. Snowden to its soil, and threatening them with a fine of 2,000 pounds, or $3,125. Geoffrey Robertson, of London, who was an initial lawyer for Julian Assange during the WikiLeaks dispute, criticized the alert as unusual because it was being applied to someone who has denounced government policies.

“This is a power hitherto used only against those who incite terrorism, race hatred and homophobia — never before against whistle-blowers,” Mr. Robertson wrote in an e-mail. “The British government is simply afraid that its judges, who are fiercely independent, and the European court would embarrass its closest ally by ruling that Snowden could not be extradited because, even if his “revelations” prove to be mistaken, he would be subjected to oppressive treatment akin to that being meted out to Bradley Manning,” the American Army private accused of having leaked secrets in the WikiLeaks case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/world/asia/ex-nsa-contractors-disclosures-could-complicate-his-fate.html?

Offline Deeks

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2013, 08:16:21 PM »
I eh no apologist for the US govt. They have been spying on people, foreign and domestic, for years. And all American know that. All those who profess that they did not know taht the gov't has data on them are a bunch of  fakes. They know that damn well.  If the data was on Black Panther, Move, Acorn, NAACP, Unions, ACLU they would not be saying one shit. This is the reality of security and intelligence. With globalization and the ease of communication, the government has to to mine data. Because there is so much.

Unfortunately, this man falls in the traitor category
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 08:19:37 PM by Deeks »

Offline Toppa

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2013, 02:29:13 PM »
What makes him a traitor? And the revelations on the details of Washington's spying in China makes their cries against the Chinese's hacks resoundingly hollow.
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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2013, 04:12:55 PM »
What makes him a traitor? And the revelations on the details of Washington's spying in China makes their cries against the Chinese's hacks resoundingly hollow.

Spy vs Spy. How the Russians got info on how to make nuclear bombs? China does spy on everybody. Us does spy on everybody. Russia does spy on everybody. India, Pakistan same game. Oh, MI5 is just a tv show. British Intelligence and Scotland Yard main job is spying. Get the info by all means necessary.

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2013, 08:40:07 PM »
What makes him a traitor? And the revelations on the details of Washington's spying in China makes their cries against the Chinese's hacks resoundingly hollow.

He was trusted with sensitive information related to national security and the betrayed that trust.  Hence he's a traitor.  And Toppa yuh much more intelligent than yuh showing here... you seriously trying to compare US spying on select Chinese targets with Cyber attacks?
Quote
The report, released Monday, described China’s primary goal as stealing industrial technology, but said many intrusions also seemed aimed at obtaining insights into American policy makers’ thinking. It warned that the same information-gathering could easily be used for “building a picture of U.S. network defense networks, logistics, and related military capabilities that could be exploited during a crisis.”

If yuh don't want to believe what the NYT reports, here's another source, this one from yuh favorite newspaper:

Quote
The Defence Science Board report comes amid a spate of accusations worldwide claiming Beijing is engaged in a sustained campaign of hacking defence and business secrets. In a separate row, Chinese hackers are alleged to have stolen the blueprints for Australia's new spy headquarters.

Yet another...

Quote
The Obama administration is considering more assertive action against Beijing to combat a persistent cyber-espionage campaign it believes Chinese hackers are waging against U.S. companies and government agencies.

As The New York Times and Wall Street Journal reported Thursday that their computer systems had been infiltrated by China-based hackers, cybersecurity experts said the U.S. government is eyeing more pointed diplomatic...

-------

Internet search leader Google focused attention on the China threat three years ago by alleging that it had traced a series of hacking attacks to that country. The company said the breaches, which became known as "Operation Aurora," appeared aimed at heisting some of its business secrets, as well as spying on Chinese human rights activists who relied on Google's Gmail service. As many as 20 other U.S. companies were also said to be targeted.

A four-month long cyberattack against The New York Times is the latest in a long string of breaches said to be by China-based hackers into corporate and government computer systems across the United States. The Times attacks, routed through computers at U.S. universities, targeted staff members' email accounts, the Times said, and were likely in retribution for the newspaper's investigation into the wealth amassed by the family of a top Chinese leader.

The Wall Street Journal on Thursday said that its computer systems, too, had been breached by China-based hackers in an effort to monitor the newspaper's coverage of China issues.

Media organizations with bureaus in China have believed for years that their computers, phones and conversations were likely monitored on a fairly regular basis by the Chinese. The Gmail account of an Associated Press staffer was broken into in China in 2010.


You really making the claim that complaining about attacks on US military, government and economic targets sounds "resoundingly hollow" because the US engaged in SPYING on Chinese targets??

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2013, 07:26:40 AM »
The NSA probably running this thread through their fancy algorithms and have now identified all on this forum who disagree with their covert actions.

Look out next time you travel internationally.   ;)
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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 11:15:08 AM »
But look:

Obama orders US to draw up overseas target list for cyber-attacks
Exclusive: Top-secret directive steps up offensive cyber capabilities to 'advance US objectives around the world'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/obama-china-targets-cyber-overseas
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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 12:26:18 PM »
Another Q&A with Snowden

Let's begin with these:

1) Why did you choose Hong Kong to go to and then tell them about US hacking on their research facilities and universities?

2) How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

Answer:

1) First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless.

2) All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.

Question:

I should have asked you this when I saw you but never got round to it........Why did you just not fly direct to Iceland if that is your preferred country for asylum?

Answer:

Leaving the US was an incredible risk, as NSA employees must declare their foreign travel 30 days in advance and are monitored. There was a distinct possibility I would be interdicted en route, so I had to travel with no advance booking to a country with the cultural and legal framework to allow me to work without being immediately detained. Hong Kong provided that. Iceland could be pushed harder, quicker, before the public could have a chance to make their feelings known, and I would not put that past the current US administration.

Question:

You have said HERE that you admire both Ellsberg and Manning, but have argued that there is one important distinction between yourself and the army private...


"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."

Are you suggesting that Manning indiscriminately dumped secrets into the hands of Wikileaks and that he intended to harm people?

Answer:

No, I'm not. Wikileaks is a legitimate journalistic outlet and they carefully redacted all of their releases in accordance with a judgment of public interest. The unredacted release of cables was due to the failure of a partner journalist to control a passphrase. However, I understand that many media outlets used the argument that "documents were dumped" to smear Manning, and want to make it clear that it is not a valid assertion here.

Question:

Did you lie about your salary? What is the issue there? Why did you tell Glenn Greenwald that your salary was $200,000 a year, when it was only $122,000 (according to the firm that fired you.)

Answer:

I was debriefed by Glenn and his peers over a number of days, and not all of those conversations were recorded. The statement I made about earnings was that $200,000 was my "career high" salary. I had to take pay cuts in the course of pursuing specific work. Booz was not the most I've been paid.

Question:

Why did you wait to release the documents if you said you wanted to tell the world about the NSA programs since before Obama became president?

Answer:

Obama's campaign promises and election gave me faith that he would lead us toward fixing the problems he outlined in his quest for votes. Many Americans felt similarly. Unfortunately, shortly after assuming power, he closed the door on investigating systemic violations of law, deepened and expanded several abusive programs, and refused to spend the political capital to end the kind of human rights violations like we see in Guantanamo, where men still sit without charge.

Question:

1) Define in as much detail as you can what "direct access" means.

2) Can analysts listen to content of domestic calls without a warrant?

Answer:

1) More detail on how direct NSA's accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed.

2) NSA likes to use "domestic" as a weasel word here for a number of reasons. The reality is that due to the FISA Amendments Act and its section 702 authorities, Americans’ communications are collected and viewed on a daily basis on the certification of an analyst rather than a warrant. They excuse this as "incidental" collection, but at the end of the day, someone at NSA still has the content of your communications. Even in the event of "warranted" intercept, it's important to understand the intelligence community doesn't always deal with what you would consider a "real" warrant like a Police department would have to, the "warrant" is more of a templated form they fill out and send to a reliable judge with a rubber stamp.

Glenn Greenwald follow up: When you say "someone at NSA still has the content of your communications" - what do you mean? Do you mean they have a record of it, or the actual content?

Both. If I target for example an email address, for example under FAA 702, and that email address sent something to you, Joe America, the analyst gets it. All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time - and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants.

Cont'd...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 12:34:17 PM by Toppa »
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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 11:19:51 PM »
But look:

Obama orders US to draw up overseas target list for cyber-attacks
Exclusive: Top-secret directive steps up offensive cyber capabilities to 'advance US objectives around the world'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/obama-china-targets-cyber-overseas

Is the Guardian even credible anymore?

Another Q&A with Snowden

Let's begin with these:

1) Why did you choose Hong Kong to go to and then tell them about US hacking on their research facilities and universities?

2) How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

Answer:

1) First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

I guess I must have missed where "the US Government" declared him guilty of treason.

Offline Toppa

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 11:21:18 PM »
Why is The Guardian no longer credible?
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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 11:42:27 PM »
Greenwald Conducts Online Chat with Snowden, Inflicting More Damage to Their Cause

By Bob Cesca



It seems that every time Edward Snowden emerges from hiding and communicates something through either Glenn Greenwald or other reporters from The Guardian, he loses credibility. It’s not the fault of a government agitprop smear campaign or those of us who are critical of the shoddy reporting that’s botched this story from the beginning. It’s really just Snowden’s own words that tend to flummox his cause. And, frankly, I have no blessed idea if there’s even a Cause any more.

First, over the weekend, Snowden dumped a new packet of documents into the world via The Guardian. This time around, he revealed that the U.K. version of the NSA, the GCHQ, and with the help of the NSA itself, spied on various leaders at the G20 summit, with a particular focus on Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

And this leak is in service of… what exactly? American civil liberties and the Fouth Amendment? Not at all.

Clearly, as John Aravosis wrote in AmericaBlog, this appears to be more about Snowden’s “animus” than anything else.

(Aravosis also wrote: “Famed NSA leaker Edward Snowden almost had me convinced of his sincerity. Until today, when he released damaging information about US spying on Russia’s former president, and offered up no explanation for how such revelations jibe with his earlier claims to be fighting for the American people. You don’t go and help the Russians if your goal is fighting for the American people, unless you have a darn good reason, and Snowden has so far given none for today’s new leaks.”)

In an online Q&A hosted by Greenwald, Snowden justified this egregious leak by saying that we’re not at war with any of the G20 nations so there’s no reason why we’d want to spy on them. In other words, spying is only permissible in wartime, he said. But we’re absolutely at war against the Taliban and al-Qaida, so does Snowden believe we can continue to spy on those players? If so, isn’t that what the NSA is primarily doing? More unanswered questions.

Furthermore, is Snowden so naive as to believe that allies don’t monitor each other, especially when it comes to “frenemies” like Russia? That’s insane. If the U.S. ceased any sort of espionage in this area, we’d likely be the only nation that wasn’t gathering intelligence on the activities of other nations, friend or foe. If Snowden was concerned about being portrayed as idealistic and immature, he surely didn’t help himself with his irresponsible leak or his explanation for it.

But then, within the Q&A he further discredited himself and Greenwald in a number of areas. And by “discredited” I mean completely and totally embarrassed himself and his chief advocate. Flop-sweat embarrassment.

Where do I begin?

1) Snowden admitted that “direct access” to tech giant servers isn’t NSA policy. But analysts, like Snowden, have the capabilities to do it.

Quote
Q: Define in as much detail as you can what “direct access” means.

SNOWDEN: More detail on how direct NSA’s accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on – it’s all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time.

So there isn’t any NSA policy, whether from an administrator, lawyer or the Obama Justice Department, that authorizes direct access. At all. “The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based.” In other words, Snowden had the IT hacker know-how to do it. Not the permission or the mandate.

Quote
SNOWDEN: Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed
.

This raises a huge question: did Snowden ever directly access a server just because he could and, therefore, violated both NSA policy and, arguably, a stack of other laws? And, subsequently, did Snowden cover his tracks by fooling the NSA audits and safeguards? It’s been my personal experience that hackers will often exploit weaknesses and hack into systems because they believe they’re performing a public service by informing the victim of the hack that their security measures ought to be strengthened. Did Snowden do this?

So many questions — questions that should’ve been answered by the, you know, primary reporter who’s covering this story (Greenwald).

2) Snowden admitted that it’s not really a matter of policy for NSA analysts to listen to calls or read emails without a warrant. He was asked about his video interview remark that he could wiretap anyone, including the president. His response:

Quote
SNOWDEN: US Persons do enjoy limited policy protections (and again, it’s important to understand that policy protection is no protection – policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens) and one very weak technical protection – a near-the-front-end filter at our ingestion points. The filter is constantly out of date, is set at what is euphemistically referred to as the “widest allowable aperture,” and can be stripped out at any time.

His argument appears to be that even though there are protections, those protections could be removed at some point. So is his argument against the analysts hacking into the tech giants’ servers or that we should prevent the policy from being removed? How so? With another policy? Odd.

But even if I’m totally misinterpreting what Snowden said in either scenario, direct access or warrantless wiretaps, he continues to withhold technical evidence of his claims — both of which are easily the centerpieces of the story. Hands down, “direct access” and listening to calls without warrants are the two most contentious areas of debate, carrying with them a long roster of follow-up questions. These are areas that deserved independent technical vetting and detailed reporting from the start. So why haven’t Greenwald and Snowden cut this one off at the pass by releasing the evidence and explicitly describing the process in detail? At this point, Snowden’s story is growing weaker by the day, so hard evidence would not only answer these questions but vindicate his credibility.

3) Snowden echoed Ron Paul’s crackpot remark that the intelligence community or the Obama administration might assassinate him with a drone. He was asked, “How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?” His response:

Quote
SNOWDEN: All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.

Okay, look, even if he seriously believes the government might murder him, you don’t say this in public — ever — because people like me and Charlie Pierce will think you’ve utterly lost your shpadoinkle.

Pierce’s reaction was priceless: “Just shut up. Now. Every time you say stuff like this, you make it easier to marginalize you as a messenger, and you cost yourself allies in the general cause for which you have risked so much. Answer no more questions from Mr. Greenwald or anyone else. Huddle with your legal advisers. (Actually, this is very good advice.) The United States government is not interested in murdering you. If you have proof to the contrary, please provide it, and all answers containing the names “al-Alwaki” or “Rand Paul” will be immediately disallowed by our judges.”

Perhaps there’s some larger canvass here that we’re not seeing yet, but why would Snowden move from his initial story to the unrelated-to-civil-liberties G20 story when and if he has hard evidence for significantly more damning operations: 1) the NSA breaking into servers belonging to the tech giants, and 2) the government targeting him for assassination? Show us, Snowden. The onus is on him to prove it, and it’s on Greenwald to fill in all of these gaping holes in his reporting.

4) On a less consequential note, but which also speaks to Snowden’s veracity, he was asked about the discrepancy between his salary as reported by Booz Allen and his salary as reported by The Guardian.

Quote
SNOWDEN: I was debriefed by Glenn and his peers over a number of days, and not all of those conversations were recorded. The statement I made about earnings was that $200,000 was my “career high” salary. I had to take pay cuts in the course of pursuing specific work. Booz was not the most I’ve been paid.

Wait, Greenwald didn’t record all of his interviews? No wonder there the reporting is sloppy. And perhaps that explains why Greenwald reported this:

Quote
He has had “a very comfortable life” that included a salary of roughly $200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career, and a family he loves.

Did he have another job in Hawaii prior to Booz Allen that paid him $200,000 annually? I thought his previous job was with Dell in Maryland? Accurate, detailed reporting would resolve this, but we don’t have it.

5) Why is Snowden doing this? His answer is yanked directly from every insufferable gripe you’ve ever read about the Obama administration:

Quote
SNOWDEN: Obama’s campaign promises and election gave me faith that he would lead us toward fixing the problems he outlined in his quest for votes. Many Americans felt similarly. Unfortunately, shortly after assuming power, he closed the door on investigating systemic violations of law, deepened and expanded several abusive programs, and refused to spend the political capital to end the kind of human rights violations like we see in Guantanamo, where men still sit without charge.

Snowden must’ve entirely missed Greenwald’s extensive and typically incendiary posts in the Summer of 2008 when then-Senator Barack Obama voted for the FISA Amendments bill — the very legislation that gave us Section 702 and PRISM in the first place. This was months before the election, but Snowden ostensibly voted for the Obama ticket anyway. [CORRECTION: Snowden reportedly voted for a third party candidate in 2008, which makes his effusive disappointment with Obama even more puzzling.] He must’ve also missed all of the congressional votes to block the closure of the prison at Guantanamo.

Clearly Greenwald thinks exposing Snowden’s unscripted comments to the public will augment his source’s credibility, rather than simply providing evidence for Snowden’s previous claims. But it’s not working. Suspicions about Snowden as a paranoid conspiracy theorist and Ron-Paul-meets-Alex-Jones disciple aren’t being assuaged by Snowden’s own words, or by Greenwald’s murky coverage. Surely this is unintentional, but it won’t surprise me if more and more people begin to ask what they’re hiding beneath the obfuscation and growing weirdness.

Bob Cesca is the managing editor for The Daily Banter, the editor of BobCesca.com, the host of the Bubble Genius Bob & Chez Show podcast and a Huffington Post contributor.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/greenwald-conducts-online-chat-with-snowden-inflicting-more-damage-to-their-cause/

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 11:54:30 PM »
Why is The Guardian no longer credible?

Greenwald started with a series of bombastic allegations about the NSA having "real time access" to the servers of the nine tech companies.  Not only did those companies deny any such thing ever occurred, they stated that what did happen was that the Government made specific requests with authorization from the FISA court, and they complied with the court order.  Real time access means they essentially could just log on and take whatever information they wanted from the servers.  We now know that to not be the case... well, if the Government and tech companies are to be believed, right?

My personal issue with the Guardian is that the tail seems to be wagging the dog on this; which is to say they are allowing themselves to be led around by Greenwald.  He is YET to issue a retraction or correction to his hyperbolic claims, despite the evidence that has since come out. Then factor in the discrepancies that are starting to come to light and more and more it seems he's just letting his zeal and dislike (if you want to call it that) for the Obama administration get the better of his objectivity.  And speaking of objectivity, I'm having a harder time with each passing day to accept the Guardian as being objective, especially when they decide to break the news tha the British GCHQ spied on allies gathered for the G8 summit last year... and tie it to the NSA case.  Snowden was again the source... but how is that even remotely "in the public interest" as he claims?  More and more it seems to me that they've bought this dog and so now they trying as hard as possible to walk it.

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2013, 10:40:29 AM »
Why is The Guardian no longer credible?

Greenwald started with a series of bombastic allegations about the NSA having "real time access" to the servers of the nine tech companies.  Not only did those companies deny any such thing ever occurred, they stated that what did happen was that the Government made specific requests with authorization from the FISA court, and they complied with the court order.  Real time access means they essentially could just log on and take whatever information they wanted from the servers.  We now know that to not be the case... well, if the Government and tech companies are to be believed, right?

My personal issue with the Guardian is that the tail seems to be wagging the dog on this; which is to say they are allowing themselves to be led around by Greenwald.  He is YET to issue a retraction or correction to his hyperbolic claims, despite the evidence that has since come out. Then factor in the discrepancies that are starting to come to light and more and more it seems he's just letting his zeal and dislike (if you want to call it that) for the Obama administration get the better of his objectivity.  And speaking of objectivity, I'm having a harder time with each passing day to accept the Guardian as being objective, especially when they decide to break the news tha the British GCHQ spied on allies gathered for the G8 summit last year... and tie it to the NSA case.  Snowden was again the source... but how is that even remotely "in the public interest" as he claims?  More and more it seems to me that they've bought this dog and so now they trying as hard as possible to walk it.

not correct. you are confusing real-time access with queryable access. the two are not the same.

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2013, 12:08:19 PM »

not correct. you are confusing real-time access with queryable access. the two are not the same.

Read and hush yuh ass.  The impression given was that the government was being given direct real-time, unfettered access.  Nothing of the sort, not even remotely close is happening.  The Guardian has failed to address the hysteria it helped create by explaining what Greenwald meant.  Everyone agrees that the initial allegations haven't been substantiated, you talking about what I "confusing."

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2013, 12:14:08 PM »
Why is The Guardian no longer credible?

Greenwald started with a series of bombastic allegations about the NSA having "real time access" to the servers of the nine tech companies.  Not only did those companies deny any such thing ever occurred, they stated that what did happen was that the Government made specific requests with authorization from the FISA court, and they complied with the court order.  Real time access means they essentially could just log on and take whatever information they wanted from the servers.  We now know that to not be the case... well, if the Government and tech companies are to be believed, right?

My personal issue with the Guardian is that the tail seems to be wagging the dog on this; which is to say they are allowing themselves to be led around by Greenwald.  He is YET to issue a retraction or correction to his hyperbolic claims, despite the evidence that has since come out. Then factor in the discrepancies that are starting to come to light and more and more it seems he's just letting his zeal and dislike (if you want to call it that) for the Obama administration get the better of his objectivity.  And speaking of objectivity, I'm having a harder time with each passing day to accept the Guardian as being objective, especially when they decide to break the news tha the British GCHQ spied on allies gathered for the G8 summit last year... and tie it to the NSA case.  Snowden was again the source... but how is that even remotely "in the public interest" as he claims?  More and more it seems to me that they've bought this dog and so now they trying as hard as possible to walk it.

Greenwald is one Columnist - an American who writes on the US version of the site. This does not revoke the credibility of the Guardian as a news outlet because one columnist is accused of conflating two separate issues (programmes).

This is what Snowden clarified in his most recent interview - it addresses a separate issue from the PRISM programme:

"The reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA [Defence Intelligence Agency], etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT [signals intelligence] databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on – it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed …

If I target for example an email address, for example under FAA 702, and that email address sent something to you, Joe America, the analyst gets it. All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time – and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants."

And the revelations of the British Government spying is relevant to the British public, no?

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Offline ribbit

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2013, 12:18:31 PM »

not correct. you are confusing real-time access with queryable access. the two are not the same.

Read and hush yuh ass.  The impression given was that the government was being given direct real-time, unfettered access.  Nothing of the sort, not even remotely close is happening.  The Guardian has failed to address the hysteria it helped create by explaining what Greenwald meant.  Everyone agrees that the initial allegations haven't been substantiated, you talking about what I "confusing."

likely the Guardian had someone equally as ignorant on technology as yourself proofing their copy. fortunately, your ignorance is confined to sw.net.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2013, 05:24:31 PM »
Greenwald is one Columnist - an American who writes on the US version of the site. This does not revoke the credibility of the Guardian as a news outlet because one columnist is accused of conflating two separate issues (programmes).

Toppa, as I said... my issue is that Greenwald is the Guardian's point man on this investigation, and his credibility and objectivity is being eroded with each passing day.  He's not the only Guardian journalist writing about the situation, but he's the highest profile, and has done the most.  They have shown very little interest or inclination in reeling him in.  As such their credibility suffers by extension.  Tail wagging the dog, as I said.


Quote
This is what Snowden clarified in his most recent interview - it addresses a separate issue from the PRISM programme:

"The reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA [Defence Intelligence Agency], etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT [signals intelligence] databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on – it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed …

If I target for example an email address, for example under FAA 702, and that email address sent something to you, Joe America, the analyst gets it. All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time – and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants."

And the revelations of the British Government spying is relevant to the British public, no?



With all due respect I think you highlighted the wrong part.  Note that Snowden concedes that the restrictions against the targeting he describes are policy based, not technological.  In other words... contrary to the early suggestions that the NSA was just had free access to go into the servers at-will and that they were engaged in this broad monitoring of emails etc... he's saying just the opposite now.  The NSA has policies in place restricting how and when the information should be accessed.  He says there are no technological restrictions, meaning the analysts possess the technological know-how to hack into the system.  Rogue behavior like that is hardly the same as an illegal, abusive program of systematic intrusions as Greenwald initially alleged.  Where has the correction or retractions been?  Snowden displays a lack of candor by not straight up admitting that he exaggerated, and Greenwald is complicit in it.


As for the British spying program being "relevant" to the British public... of course it's relevant to them, as is any action taken by the British government would be "relevant" to a British citizen, especially if on British soil.  But how is it in the public's interest to reveal that their government has spied on other governments?  That's of interest to the public how?  Governments have been doing that forever, no harm no foul.  Even if the allies knew inherently that there is some spying taking place... to come out and publish/confirm that it took place that the G8 meeting just strikes me as excessive.  They really trying too hard to make a mountain out of a molehill.  I don't think it was malicious... just naive (you mean governments spy on each other??).  Same as with Snowden.

Offline Toppa

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2013, 02:06:59 PM »
Hong Kong let him leave. That's sure to piss off Washington..
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2013, 09:52:46 PM »
... Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Offline Toppa

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Re: Anger swells after NSA phone records court order revelations
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2013, 10:32:25 AM »
China simultaneously said: "Hul allyuh tail/doh try to tie we up in allyuh bacchanal". lol

Now Russia saying they don't know notting and dey can't do anything. As long as the man stay in the Terminal, he not on Russian soil. haha

I feel bad for his family and girlfriend though - they will never have 'normal' lives again.

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