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Author Topic: All-white town fights to preserve segregation in Mandela's 'Rainbow Nation'  (Read 3360 times)

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Offline weary1969

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By F. Brinley Bruton, Staff Writer, NBC News
KLEINFONTEIN, South Africa - An all-white enclave less than an hour from South Africa’s capital is fighting to hold on to a segregated life reminiscent of the country before Nelson Mandela toppled the apartheid regime.

“We feel that our culture is being threatened and we want to protect it and we want to nurture it,” said Marisa Haasbroek, a writer and mother who serves as voluntary spokeswoman for a gated community called Kleinfontein. 
Kleinfontein does not hide its ties to South Africa’s divided past, nor its mistrust of the country’s present: At its entrance stands a bust of Hendrik Verwoerd, who is seen as the father of apartheid.

 A fence surrounds its almost 2,000 acres and guards in fatigues police at the entrance of the community condemned as "racist" by some critics. Among the reasons that Haasbroek and others in the cooperative town cite for walling themselves off are the country’s high crime rates and institutionalized affirmative action, which they say results in white people being frozen out of jobs and university places. 

Before moving to the town of some 1,000 residents, applicants must embrace the community’s “core values,” which are about being a Protestant Christian, an Afrikaner – the group descended from Dutch settlers – and speaking Dutch-based Afrikaans. No non-whites or Jews live or work within its boundaries.

Less than 25 years after the end of the apartheid regime run by white Afrikaners, Haasbroek said their specific identity was under threat.

“My son is the tenth generation with the Haasbroek name in South Africa,” she said. “We are not colonists. We have been here for generations and generations building up the roads, making the infrastructure.”

“And suddenly we don’t feel welcome anymore,” she added. 
If Afrikaners' rights aren't protected, the children of a community that South African President Jacob Zuma calls Africa's "only white tribe" will disappear, according to Marisa Haasbroek.
So the residents of Kleinfontein have dug in and built a community that they say reflects their heritage. Residents have to be approved by a committee. And all the work is done by Afrikaners. Signs declaring “We are here to stay” in Afrikaans dot the property.

But the issue of who is allowed to live in Kleinfontein -- and who is excluded -- offends many. Its residents are from the same white minority that ruled the country for decades, imposing strict racial segregation and oppressing the majority non-white population.

While the community has been in existence in the outskirts of Pretoria since 1992 – two years after anti-apartheid icon Mandela was released from prison and two years before blacks were allowed to vote – criticism of it has grown recently. 

In late May, a black man was blocked from buying a house there. Demonstrators protested outside its gates and local officials launched an investigation of the community, saying discrimination on the basis of language, race and color is illegal.

But along with the criticism, there has been sympathy.

Subscriptions to its “Friends of Kleinfontein” newsletter jumped by around 20 percent in the last three weeks, Haasbroek said.  At least 10 people called the community saying they wanted to move there immediately.

“The impression we got from many Afrikaners is that many of them support our right to live the way we do, even if they themselves don't want to come in live in our quiet little town,” Haasbroek said.

But it isn’t just any quiet little town. 

While residents say they simply want to preserve their culture and language, critics argue that the mere existence of the community is a rejection of Mandela and his vision of a non-racial nation.

“The fact that there are children growing up there and being indoctrinated with hateful ideology that paints all black people as criminals, that really concerns me,” said Czerina Patel, a South African journalist who is the executive director of Yenza, a charity that works with disadvantaged young people. 

“The bottom line is [if a non-white] Afrikaans-speaking person wanted to live there they couldn’t,” she added.

Residents of Kleinfontein respond to criticism by saying it is they who were being squeezed out of Mandela’s “Rainbow Nation.”
Johan Foley's home includes the old South African flag (left) and the old Transvaal province flag (right).
Johan Foley, a former bank manager, did not mince his words about why he moved to Kleinfontein about 20 years ago.

“We are worrying about black people,” said Foley, 76.

“Every time they get their hands on something, it is going bankrupt, there are troubles," he said. "White people gave them clothes, an education.”

Foley said he moved to Kleinfontein after he built a “pretty house” in Nylstroom – renamed Modimolle by the post-apartheid government. 

“We found something strange happened – all of the empty lots in town suddenly they built up with these 40-square-meter houses. And then we found out they had sold out the whole of Nylstroom to the black people,” he said.  “And at that moment, I decided I had to sell my house.”

He is entrenched and will never leave, he said, because his vision of South Africa is being ruined.

“Since 1994, since black people are taking over this country, everything has gone wrong,” Foley said.

The community is a shadow of the country’s former mighty ruling class. 

A clutch of tents and mobile homes sits on part of the property – these are Afrikaners who are too poor to buy into the cooperative, or build or buy one of the modest brick homes that dot the property. 
Workers employed to build roads and carry out maintenance live in in these mobile homes in Kleinfontein.
A sense of crisis pervades any conversation about the future.  In the event of the death of Mandela -- who made a point of reaching out to the white community and indeed appointed an Afrikaner as his personal secretary -- things were likely to get worse, residents said.

"(Mandela) reached out but I don't think his followers or the people who came after have the same spirit," Haasbroek said.  "That's why people are worried."

And if Afrikaners’ rights aren’t protected, the children of a community that South African President Jacob Zuma calls Africa’s “only white tribe” will disappear, she said.

“I don’t think they’ll have a future here. Will they have jobs?" Haasbroek said of her children.  “Afrikaners are getting poorer and poorer. I can pack up my things and do what my sister did and go to Australia.”

“My husband’s an engineer, he can get a job anywhere,” she added. “But what about my people?”

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Offline Jah Gol

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They're trying to make a country within a country.

Offline lefty

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thing is........it is indeed sad but SA in many ways have gone to hell since the ANC took over, question is how much of that is ANC mismanagement  and how much is "The Man" :D taking some measure of revenge with economic warfare...if u believe the conspiracy nuts thats is.?
I pity the fool....

Offline ribbit

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thing is........it is indeed sad but SA in many ways have gone to hell since the ANC took over, question is how much of that is ANC mismanagement  and how much is "The Man" :D taking some measure of revenge with economic warfare...if u believe the conspiracy nuts thats is.?

is plenty of white skilled educated ex-pat south africanners ah meet all over. plenty ride out in the last few decades.

Offline just cool

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thing is........it is indeed sad but SA in many ways have gone to hell since the ANC took over, question is how much of that is ANC mismanagement  and how much is "The Man" :D taking some measure of revenge with economic warfare...if u believe the conspiracy nuts thats is.?
Ah boy lefty boy, yuh se that phrase yuh coin there, man you don't know how powerful those words were.

sometimes when i look @ my ppl the world over, and see where they just can't get it together, sometimes it does make me doubt my own self as to not buy into the age old propaganda that black ppl are really incapable of coping with modernization, adequate proper societal norms and self governance.

just look @ africa forinstance, almost every nation in post colonial africa with the exception of ghana has suffered civil wars and coup d'etat that brought the whole continent to it's knees. i know ppl would say that it was espionage and economic warfare to blame, but why could they not see that and work for the greater good of their nation and the continent on the whole?

i believe that this never happened (africans comin together for the greater good) bc of the selfish nature of black ppl in general. a lot of ppl may grossly disagree with me, but i believe that the very slave trade and colonialism was upheld by african ppl due to their selfishness and lack of cohesiveness amongst themselves.

the whites presented slavery as an idea to black africa, but black africa accepted it and carried it out in the name of self interest and vanity.

just like today, western foreign interest inveigle them to rise up against their proactive leaders in order for them to exploit their resources, or the flip side, encourage their leaders to make bad investments in their own interest ignoring the interest of the ppl or their nation.

black ppl on a whole live very hand to mouth and near sighted, there's no forward thinking and collective bargaining in the black world, especially amongst our leaders, they are against excellence with a passion, just ppl seeking their own interest.   may God help us! 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 02:40:46 PM by just cool »
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Offline D.H.W

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Is true look at who provide the weapons in the African conflicts. Trace that and you will see China, Russia and US (Secretly) providing Arms to them. The black people are just Pawns to the bigger battle of control over Africa. The countries I mention above all fighting for control over natural resources.

You ever wonder how US and Nato only intervene in certain African countries but leave the others to rot? You ever wonder how come all of a sudden Al Qeuda suddenly interested in Africa. ?

Thats the War they don't want you to know about. Destabilize and buy off the regime to get favours. Happened in Iraq and Afghanistan , and keeps going on in Africa all the time. But nobody cares about black people getting killed in Villages not important. That Shadow world is very scary and Dangerous.

Here is a BBC investigation that found proof of Chinese weapons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7503428.stm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 01:05:03 PM by D.H.W »
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Offline just cool

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DHW yuh preaching to the choir.

i've been aware of this for decades, since patrice lamumba was ousted by casaboboo and mubutto dem.  the point of my post is why??

why do africans fall for these simple knuckle head tactics over and over again?? remember they were given the freedom to rule their destiny, just like the chinese, the indians and the arabs, but yuh never see these ppl selling out so blatantly for pennies.

yuh feel the middleast don't have resources in their soil, yuh feel india don't?? these places have resources that the west wants, but they are not easily manipulated like african ppl. it's almost like they have no will or resistance, that's how pitiful they carry themselves.

it's just like the slave trade, the white man give them mirrors, guns, rum and trinkets and they sold millions over the space of hundreds of yrs, IMO they have no duty to each other and lack solidarity big time, even to this day!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 03:07:23 PM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline just cool

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Lemme ask allyuh this, yes we know the west manipulated africa and commandeered their resources, but allyuh ever wonder what happened to the places in the african diaspora like the bahamas, jamaica, guyana and to some extent trinidad and tobago??

why is it that the african diaspora can't get it together either, despite having good resources and the democratic process?? yuh ever wonder why black ppl always find ah way to collide with each other, and with very little provocation?

take jamaica forinstance. the crown's fleets wasn't even fully out of the kingston harbor when these clowns started fighting each other for political control, it wasn't even 10 yrs of post colonial independence when all hell broke lose. guyana suffered a similar fate where the ppl did not respect the democratic process either.

trinidad was a different story, they respected the democratic process, but they did not respect the oil revenues. this little country amassed billions just ah little over 10 yrs post independence, and what did they do with it, they ignored the infrastructure and went to stealing, just like the african nations who came into a little wealth.

i don't know nah breds, i just fed up of making excuses for black folks! it's like they always find ways to nauseate me in the end,  i'm through with the excuses, it's time to assume the responsibility for failure, no mo doggone excuses!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 05:35:14 AM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Online Peong

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“And suddenly we don’t feel welcome anymore,” she added. 

Ah bet she doh see the irony in what she sayin.  The world will be better off without these people.

Offline just cool

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We all know them white ppl was racially motivated, but there's some element of truth to their assessment of black ppl.

south africans fought tooth and nail for equality and to end apartheid, now that they have achieved their objective, instead of these ppl get hold of their country and work their arses off to make it the gem of africa, just look @ what they have resorted too instead?

gun violence against each other, retribution killings, gang warfare, raping/ especially white women, drug dealing and smuggling, just pure criminal activity.

the other ppl amongst the masses who they love to call colored (arabs, indians, chinese, mulatto's) aren't part of this mayhem, it's only black south africans who's bringing down this country, and tuh tell yuh the truth, i'd rather remain in ah struggle than to be free to be a nuisance on the society, these yutes are spiting and pissing on the struggle!

So as raw as it maybe, IMO i don't blame the white ppl for feeling the way they do, fack that, these lil bastards fackin up ah damn good country that these white folks painstakingly took time to build, and if i was ah white man and saw my country going to hell in ah hand basket and felt unsafe, i know i woulda said worst and would want tuh live in ah segregated society meh damn self. these mdafkn young blacks ain't have no respect and appreciation for sh!t!

it's the same way they behave all over the world, they don't want education, they don't want tuh elevate the race, they have no racial pride whatsoever, they just love fackin up sh!t and making black ppl look wortless! i could only imagine how their ancestors must be rolling ova in their graves. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 05:57:36 AM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline ribbit

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jc, why yuh use the term "black ppl"? this is real white man vocabulary. fact is this collective term is more diverse than yuh allowing. africa has the greatest genetic diversity on the planet. yuh honestly thing putting a somali, a sudanese, igbo and pygmy in de same room dey have much to talk about? some black peoples been fighting for millenia. it seem like some of your talk is an appeal for "black unity" but breds this cyah ignore history.

Offline just cool

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jc, why yuh use the term "black ppl"? this is real white man vocabulary. fact is this collective term is more diverse than yuh allowing. africa has the greatest genetic diversity on the planet. yuh honestly thing putting a somali, a sudanese, igbo and pygmy in de same room dey have much to talk about? some black peoples been fighting for millenia. it seem like some of your talk is an appeal for "black unity" but breds this cyah ignore history.
What yuh saying, only blacks have diversity, which makes it all the more difficult to form a bound based on survival?? well boy do i have news for you!

take a place like jamaica for starters,  they have every race on the planet cramped into one space called yard, tell me where on earth could you find ah chinese speaking patios claiming to be other than chinese, living right next to a white scots man, and across the street there's a black family who's oldest son is getting ready to marry a syrian girl? and the irony, they all consider themselves jamaican and nothing more!

same for the western european Renaissance and subsequent world dominance. they were @ each others throats and conquering each other lands for centuries until the crusades and christiandom brought them under the same banner. and despite their brief wars during the colonial land grab, they seemed to have ironed out their differences quite well.

i understand what you are saying, but you are trivializing the situation. my point was, and i don't want you to get side tracked bc i will not be going back and forth to convince anyone who disagrees, if yuh do then yuh just do, you could jump in ah lake for all i care, but i will not be debating on this topic back and forth.

 my point was that black africans had the same opportunity as any other conquered ppl post colonial era that is, to make good on their independence, but they didn't, instead they went off on a power trip not respecting the democratic process and totally disregarded their land and their ppl.

 yes of course espionage played a huge part in it, but they still had the option to not get involved for the better good of their ppl and country, but indicative of the selfish sellout african they fell for it hook line and sinker, with greed and power playing the biggest role.

the thing that irks me with black ppl especially westerners, is the fact that they tend to have this illusion that espionage is like an unavoidable phantom circumstance, similar to a getting caught in a tornado, there's absolutely nothing you could do under those circumstances, but i'm afriad with espionage you do have the power to resist, especially since it's not an exact science! sometimes it works and sometimes it fails, it all depends on who takes the bait, when and how.

IMO kwame nkrumah had the perfect vision for a united africa movement post colonial era. there were many sub saharan countries who was on board with the idea.

this IMO would have strengthen africa to such an extent had it materialized, but espionage had played a vital role in breaking that movement apart.

inevitably nkrumah was disposed as ghana's leader by general kwasi kotoka and his side kick amankwaa afrifa, that set the ball ah rolling for what would follow throughout africa like a domino effect, coup d'etat!

a bunch of power and money hungry military men ignoring the democratic process by disposing of a new leader every monday morning on that continent, and oppressing the hell out of their ppl while stealing to their heart's content, and their main motivation was greed.

this is the dynamic of african leaders, they are all crooks, with the exception of ah very few. matters not if they are pigmy's hausa, or bantu, they have proven to be inconsistent, selfish and unpatriotic to a fault!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 05:14:33 PM by just cool »
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Offline ZANDOLIE

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jc, why yuh use the term "black ppl"? this is real white man vocabulary. fact is this collective term is more diverse than yuh allowing. africa has the greatest genetic diversity on the planet. yuh honestly thing putting a somali, a sudanese, igbo and pygmy in de same room dey have much to talk about? some black peoples been fighting for millenia. it seem like some of your talk is an appeal for "black unity" but breds this cyah ignore history.

all peoples are essentially tribal, but the modern european diaspora seems inclined to include a broader definition of kinship than say, African people.

its possible that whites may possess greater genetic capacity for the formation of larger kin bonds, which in turn results in the advantage of having a larger base for cooperative endeavour and  self-sacrifice.

but in nations with arbitrary borders, imposed political institutions and competing tribes, hyper-ethnicity is probably a better individual survival strategy than self-sacrifice. sometimes supporting one's extended family in these context appears as corruption to outsiders.
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Offline just cool

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jc, why yuh use the term "black ppl"? this is real white man vocabulary. fact is this collective term is more diverse than yuh allowing. africa has the greatest genetic diversity on the planet. yuh honestly thing putting a somali, a sudanese, igbo and pygmy in de same room dey have much to talk about? some black peoples been fighting for millenia. it seem like some of your talk is an appeal for "black unity" but breds this cyah ignore history.

all peoples are essentially tribal, but the modern european diaspora seems inclined to include a broader definition of kinship than say, African people.

its possible that whites may possess greater genetic capacity for the formation of larger kin bonds, which in turn results in the advantage of having a larger base for cooperative endeavour and  self-sacrifice.

but in nations with arbitrary borders, imposed political institutions and competing tribes, hyper-ethnicity is probably a better individual survival strategy than self-sacrifice. sometimes supporting one's extended family in these context appears as corruption to outsiders.
Zando great post, and well articulated.

could you shed some light on the dynamic of african politics if you can? bc tuh tell yuh the truth, i'm as puzzled as anyone else who views african governments from the outside looking in. 

i know there's some elements of western tampering, but why do they fall for it so easy, it's like they are naive hookers being tricked out by slick talking pimps. after all africa is wealthy, but yet soo poor and underdeveloped.
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Offline ZANDOLIE

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keeping in mind i don't know much about african politics.... colonialism reorganized formal and informal geographic barriers, trade routes, migratory pathways, water access points, hunting grounds, tribal alliances and affiliations, etc. some of which existed for centuries. for purposes of this discussion probably the most significant changes were the imposition of a nation-state political structure with all its attendant institutions and infrastructure upon diverse peoples, some of whose natural social organization extended to no more than a few tribal villages in remote locations.

even the finest parliamentary system and most streamlined bureaucracy is of little use to tribes people,  who recognize only a small circle of kinship. and by kinship i mean not just family bonds, but notions of social obligation to the kin group, allegiances, and attitudes toward power and authority.

this has a tremendous impact on "corruption".

for example, two men, one in nigeria, and one in england. both join the civil service and become  powerful descision makers. when it comes time to award state contracts for an infrastructure project, the english brother will be more likely to award contract on merit, while the nigerian brother picking friends and family one time. not out of a sense of evil, in fact exactly the opposite. the nigerian's world view compels him to assist his extended family over the interests of his nation. by western standards this is corruption, but the nigerian has been socialized to arrive to this point as the superior moral choice.  africans inherited european style nation-state political systems, but their natural political allegiances lie with the extended family.

Small kinship groups are a useful strategy in some circumstances, but are susceptible  to exploitation. the british did so with great success in africa. and foreign interests still continue to use this tactic.

roman colonization of europe is very instructive. case in point when hamilcar barca organized the tribes of the iberian peninsular they were able to stave off roman incursions. when carthage was defeated, the romans accelerated the conquest of spain by enlisting neighbouring tribes to against the more resistant cantabrians and asturians.

for close to a thousand years western europeans were considered backwater barbarians unable to benefit from all the progress and refinement brought to them by roman institutions, engineering, and culture. only until mass upheavals and the westward  migration of the goths led to the downfall of rome was europe able to begin its journey to power. struggle and geo-political upheaval often encapsulate the seeds of empire.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:59:56 PM by ZANDOLIE »
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Offline just cool

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Point well taken zando, plus you answered a question i had brewing without me even answering it, so as little as it was, this was an educational experience.

what i kinda got from your post was that bc of tribalism and klanish cultural realities, the africans was way out of sort adjusting to the roman and greek geo political systems that now permeate every facet of modern civilization, so in other words, bc of the way africa came into being with all it's diversity, close to a 1000 tribes or more and even more dialects, would you say it would take a much long time for them to adjust to the western mode of geo politics?

i'm of the opinion that tribalism is what really hurt africa's chances of competition on the global stage, but you must also remember that islam has permeated almost the whole of africa even before the colonial forces arrived, sub saharan included, and the islamic political system is not that far from grecco roman democracy.

i remember yrs ago when i used to hang out in the city, i had the privilege to meet a lot of africans from different parts of the continent, that was really my first true hands on experience with that culture, i noticed while they were humble and friendly there was still that element of caution.

for instance, if there were 7  sub saharan africans from all over the continent, and three other blacks from in the diaspora hanging out, and an african came on the scene, he would greet all the africans first before he would greet anyone else, off course in the beginning i was ah bit perturbed by it, but then i began to accept it as a cultural flaw that was passed down through the ages, which also made me realize that these fellas were as klannish and backward as their forefather who sold millions of their ppl for trinkets.

after being around these guys for soo long i came to the conclusion that this black solidarity thing especially amongst africans was ah total waste of time and it would never work as an umbrella vision a lot of these afrocentrist may have wet dream about.

i too my self was fooled into believing, no fault of mine, that black ppl in the west could @ least musta up the courage to find a way to form a bond so we could work together for the greater good of our lost ppl since tribalism was not our problem, and the only barriers that separated us was national borders,

which i soon had to come to terms with that the diasporian african was just as divided as the native africans, but here's the catch.

why is it that we as westerners vote and endorse our own kind even if they're not fit for the job, just as the tribal nigerian you earlier described?

it's ah fact that afro americans voted for obama, not bc he was the best man for the job, but obviously bc he's black, they also do this in T&T with the bipartisanism mainly divided along racial lines, IMO half of caroni did not vote for kamla bc she was the best candidate for the job, also hilary was not voted in for the same reason, but bc she was ah female so she amassed the female vote.

could it be that what you describe was simple human nature and nothing more?  i'm just thinking out loud.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 06:18:55 AM by just cool »
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Offline ZANDOLIE

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i too my self was fooled into believing, no fault of mine, that black ppl in the west could @ least musta up the courage to find a way to form a bond so we could work together for the greater good of our lost ppl since tribalism was not our problem, and the only barriers that separated us was national borders,

which i soon had to come to terms with that the diasporian african was just as divided as the native africans, but here's the catch.

why is it that we as westerners vote and endorse our own kind even if they're not fit for the job, just as the tribal nigerian you earlier described?

it's ah fact that afro americans voted for obama, not bc he was the best man for the job, but obviously bc he's black, they also do this in T&T with the bipartisanism mainly divided along racial lines, IMO half of caroni did not vote for kamla bc she was the best candidate for the job, also hilary was not voted in for the same reason, but bc she was ah female so she amassed the female vote.

could it be that what you describe was simple human nature and nothing more?  i'm just thinking out loud.

could be that even though we are raised without official tribal affiliations, a large proportion of our upbringing is a cultural relic, e.g. we trinbagonians are westerners by geography and religion, but we instilled with many values that harken back to india, africa, and syria/lebanon. we may not identify with a 'tribe' but our attitudes reflect aspects of tribal thinking.


self-serving men like jack warner have been allowed run roughshod and rob this nation blind because we historically ascribe to a 'great-man' mentality, a perspective on authority common among tribal groups.

look at african americans. after 400 years they are the only ethnic group that still retains a distinct accent, no matter where they live in the country. they are transferring not just elements of west african language across generations, but african thought as well.


now as for african americans voting for barack obama, black people vote overwhelmingly for democratic candidates. al gore recieved 90% of the black vote in 2000, only 3% less than obama in 2012.  kerry got 88% in 2004. plus obama was also the overwhelming choice of Asian and Hispanic voters. goes to show that things are not as simple as they seem.
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Offline 100% Barataria

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Did not read all of the above dialogue, too jet lagged to do so, but just returned from a week in Jo'burg and it was a lovely experience.  Met a taxi drive, ex contractor who took me around to various places including Soweto and he talked alot about the improvements under Mandela (policies, roadways/highways/byways, opportunities, development etc).  He lived close to Mandela and was a part of the protests during the Soweto uprising and described some of his life changing experiences during those years.  There is an "affirmative action" equivalent called BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) which if companies don't abide by they get dinged.  Soweto was breataking, far from the images we saw during the apartheid era, granted it's a big city within a city that you can't possibly all discover within a few hrs.  Mandela's original home is a museum and the center-piece for exploration.  Lastly, the interaction I had with many white SAs reminded me alot of the experiences in Germany in 06, again though, not necessarily your characteristic experience but eager of a people trying to shake off a dreadful past and over-compensating to some degree....
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Offline weary1969

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Did not read all of the above dialogue, too jet lagged to do so, but just returned from a week in Jo'burg and it was a lovely experience.  Met a taxi drive, ex contractor who took me around to various places including Soweto and he talked alot about the improvements under Mandela (policies, roadways/highways/byways, opportunities, development etc).  He lived close to Mandela and was a part of the protests during the Soweto uprising and described some of his life changing experiences during those years.  There is an "affirmative action" equivalent called BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) which if companies don't abide by they get dinged.  Soweto was breataking, far from the images we saw during the apartheid era, granted it's a big city within a city that you can't possibly all discover within a few hrs.  Mandela's original home is a museum and the center-piece for exploration.  Lastly, the interaction I had with many white SAs reminded me alot of the experiences in Germany in 06, again though, not necessarily your characteristic experience but eager of a people trying to shake off a dreadful past and over-compensating to some degree....

Nice experience d socawarriors did not cooperate they were to make my SA trip possible.
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Offline ribbit

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jc, why yuh use the term "black ppl"? this is real white man vocabulary. fact is this collective term is more diverse than yuh allowing. africa has the greatest genetic diversity on the planet. yuh honestly thing putting a somali, a sudanese, igbo and pygmy in de same room dey have much to talk about? some black peoples been fighting for millenia. it seem like some of your talk is an appeal for "black unity" but breds this cyah ignore history.

all peoples are essentially tribal, but the modern european diaspora seems inclined to include a broader definition of kinship than say, African people.

its possible that whites may possess greater genetic capacity for the formation of larger kin bonds, which in turn results in the advantage of having a larger base for cooperative endeavour and  self-sacrifice.

but in nations with arbitrary borders, imposed political institutions and competing tribes, hyper-ethnicity is probably a better individual survival strategy than self-sacrifice. sometimes supporting one's extended family in these context appears as corruption to outsiders.

with regards to why whites reached this larger cooperative state, a conventional perspective is that the recent history of modern europe with WWII and advent of nuclear weapons, acted as a catalyst for finding an alternative to "tribal" warfare. WWII was devastating enough without nukes, but the usual tribalism WITH NUKES would have raised the stakes too high.

africa has not experienced a similar kind of existential threat. the conflict in the congo for example, as bad as it is, can be survived.

so it may not be genetics rather history and technology that provide the basis for less conflict.

Offline Pointman

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These people are just recalcitrants who are living in the past and will soon be overtaken by a new South Africa. The fact is white South Africans still control well over 90% of the total wealth of SA. Since '94 Africans et al have been making small, steady economic gains but they are not nearly on par with the whites. There are still vestiges of apartheid that SA is dealing with today i.e crime, HIV/AIDS, and economic disparity.  These folks are just racist and backwards. Most white South Africans don't share their sentiments.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 11:11:40 PM by Pointman »
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Offline OutsideMan

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Is true look at who provide the weapons in the African conflicts. Trace that and you will see China, Russia and US (Secretly) providing Arms to them. The black people are just Pawns to the bigger battle of control over Africa. The countries I mention above all fighting for control over natural resources.

You ever wonder how US and Nato only intervene in certain African countries but leave the others to rot? You ever wonder how come all of a sudden Al Qeuda suddenly interested in Africa. ?

Thats the War they don't want you to know about. Destabilize and buy off the regime to get favours. Happened in Iraq and Afghanistan , and keeps going on in Africa all the time. But nobody cares about black people getting killed in Villages not important. That Shadow world is very scary and Dangerous.

Here is a BBC investigation that found proof of Chinese weapons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7503428.stm


You hit the nail right on the head D.H.W.  :beermug:
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Offline OutsideMan

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DHW yuh preaching to the choir.

i've been aware of this for decades, since patrice lamumba was ousted by casaboboo and mubutto dem.  the point of my post is why??

why do africans fall for these simple knuckle head tactics over and over again?? remember they were given the freedom to rule their destiny, just like the chinese, the indians and the arabs, but yuh never see these ppl selling out so blatantly for pennies.

yuh feel the middleast don't have resources in their soil, yuh feel india don't?? these places have resources that the west wants, but they are not easily manipulated like african ppl. it's almost like they have no will or resistance, that's how pitiful they carry themselves.

it's just like the slave trade, the white man give them mirrors, guns, rum and trinkets and they sold millions over the space of hundreds of yrs, IMO they have no duty to each other and lack solidarity big time, even to this day!

just cool --- You're right...but there are some key differences that still allows for the exploitation and 'gullability' of Africa.  For one, to contradict one example you provided, Mid-East countries are still easily manipulated by the West (especially by US and Israel etc).  A more recent example is Iran in 1952 and thereafter, which due to the CIA's strategy of 'inciting' and 'influencing' social upheavals in foreign countries (as a cheaper alternative to full scale military invasions), led to the overthrow of their leader in 1952.  This strategy continued up until recent times, and was finally de-classified and admitted by the US Government in 2009.  Egypt, Libya, and Syria just to name a few are other prime examples of US influence today.

Also remember than India is one country.  Africa is not a country, but a continent made up of many countries, with many various cultures.  It's sad to see the state of affairs in many African countries, and they themselves deserve a lot of the blame.  But these guys are up against nefarious forces who play this mind-game extremely well, and those forces are extremely corrupt and psychotic.  I hope one day all the impoverished nations of Africa wakes up and sees this, and stands-up to it.

But as they say, if dreams were horses...               
The dumbest people on earth are generally located in comment sections of websites all over the world.

 

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