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Offline Preacher

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I got real issue with Islam today
« on: November 12, 2013, 01:32:15 PM »
Yesterday I came across two articles on Wikileaks.  Didn't even dare watch the first one.  I ain't even gonna post the link.  This fella cuts his wife's head off in public for cheating on him.  Muslim.   In another place a taxi driver has a cross on his mirror.  They pull the guy from car and cut off his head.  Say what allyuh want but I recognize demons at work when I see it.  I know Christianity has done some ugly things throughout history in the name of religion...mainly the Roman Catholic Church.  However, so did Muslims.  Islam also grew by the sword.   Back in those days everything grew by the sword...  Plain and simple.   But in modern times you cutting off people's head in public?   All dem prayers 5 times a day supposedly to God and your conscience could do things like that easy easy.  The God I know encourages us to forgive so that we can be forgiven.  He encourages us to see the value in every life.  No one is righteous so we humble ourselves and "do religion" so we can be close to God and be more like God.  What would happen, if God was to kill someone every time they offend Him?   

Check this other piece a mess.   There is no cuss for me to cuss these people. 
http://www.deafcube.com/2013/07/31/chinese-eat-baby-soup-for-sex/

Some say it's a hoax.  Sick hoax if it is.    Better fear God and keep His commands, these days will be shortened.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 01:34:08 PM by Preacher »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 01:59:15 PM »
What does any of this have to do with "Islam"?  That is real ignorance yuh "preaching" dey fella.

Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 03:24:37 PM »
Bakes today is the worst day to try with me.   You know exactly what I'm getting at.  No need to be technical and try to lead it in some pointless direction.  A day never pass if it ain't have some Muslim cutting off somebody head "IN PUBLIC" for the purpose of upholding faith.  Look nah if you ain't have nuttin to say stay quite.  If you have a point to make make it.  The second post ain't have anything to do with Islam just another thing that piss me off today. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Bakes

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 04:20:23 PM »
Bakes today is the worst day to try with me.   You know exactly what I'm getting at.  No need to be technical and try to lead it in some pointless direction.  A day never pass if it ain't have some Muslim cutting off somebody head "IN PUBLIC" for the purpose of upholding faith.  Look nah if you ain't have nuttin to say stay quite.  If you have a point to make make it.  The second post ain't have anything to do with Islam just another thing that piss me off today. 


I will comment as I see fit, if you don't like it then skip right past it or delete the thread.  Your comment is ignorant at best, if that point is too complicated for you to grasp then have somebody explain it to you.

Offline D.H.W

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 04:51:39 PM »
Islam doesn't teach those things. It's sick people who take the religion and twist it to suit their own sick agenda. Sadly the religion looks bad because of it.

Look in Burma the Buddhist and Christians gang up killing Muslims and burning down their houses.

The question is why some Muslim people feel the need to do these things.
"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid."
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Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 07:22:46 PM »
DHW I heard that story.  As to Christians being involved, I'm not really sure.  But brother it's not the same because these actions seem to be supported as part of the religion.  You cut off a man head in public for a cross and its like Juvert morning.   What is religion if it doesn't value life in the protection of women and children?    The reason I don't do and say half the thing I feel or deal out judgement to people is that Christ died for everyone.   The breathe of life is precious and valuable.  Amen the God I serve don't think like that.  We would all be headless. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Blue

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 06:13:36 PM »
DHW I heard that story.  As to Christians being involved, I'm not really sure.  But brother it's not the same because these actions seem to be supported as part of the religion.  You cut off a man head in public for a cross and its like Juvert morning.   What is religion if it doesn't value life in the protection of women and children?    The reason I don't do and say half the thing I feel or deal out judgement to people is that Christ died for everyone.   The breathe of life is precious and valuable.  Amen the God I serve don't think like that.  We would all be headless. 


Facebook beheading video: Who was Mexico's Jane Doe?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24772724

Mexicans are Christians, right Preacher?

Offline fari

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 09:36:43 PM »
Preacher it have these radical elements  of islam who doing that mess following some crazy imam most likely...every religion have dey bad elements...what about Catholic priests messing with lil boys, what about preachers fleecing poor people of their money. 

Offline sammy

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 06:40:53 AM »
i don't know where you got your videos, however what Islam says and what some muslims do are not always the same.
Maybe you should read the Quran and see what it says.

If ppl do this, it is not in the name of true Islam as their is no compulsion in religion. I can't speak of other ppl, i can only judge myself and what I do and I can never be sure what is true or not from looking at a video, or watching the news or what my neighbor tells me.

Surah 2 verse 256:
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

"Giving away something in charity does not cause any decrease in a person's wealth, but increases it instead. The person who adopt humility for the sake of Allah is exalted in ranks by Him".
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Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2013, 06:44:11 PM »
This answered a lot of my questions.  Just came across it on FB.  It is worth the watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L1KIU7lao

In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline D.H.W

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2013, 07:23:29 PM »
I see a Muslim that claim to see Jesus and get forgiven.

Religion is a slippery slope if you ask me, I stay far away from that talk.
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Offline sammy

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 06:39:21 AM »
I see a Muslim that claim to see Jesus and get forgiven.

Religion is a slippery slope if you ask me, I stay far away from that talk.

If anyone really sees 'Jesus' then all of us are in a lot of trouble, as we believe (like the Christians) that Jesus will return to kill the anti christ.
lol so if he see jesus then pressure.

(PS i didn't watch the video)
"Giving away something in charity does not cause any decrease in a person's wealth, but increases it instead. The person who adopt humility for the sake of Allah is exalted in ranks by Him".
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2013, 10:03:32 AM »
i don't know where you got your videos, however what Islam says and what some muslims do are not always the same.
Maybe you should read the Quran and see what it says.

If ppl do this, it is not in the name of true Islam as their is no compulsion in religion. I can't speak of other ppl, i can only judge myself and what I do and I can never be sure what is true or not from looking at a video, or watching the news or what my neighbor tells me.

Surah 2 verse 256:
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Religious people choose different verses in their holy books to suit their agenda.

How does that reconcile with this for instance ?

5:77 Say: Oh, People of the Book (Christians and Jews), do not step out of the bounds of truth in your religion, and do not follow the desires of those who have gone wrong and led many astray. They have themselves gone astray from the even way.

But then there's this

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

or this

9:29 Make war on those who have received the Scriptures [Jews and Christians] but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. They do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya] and they are humiliated.


My experience with devout Muslims at home has very positive. In my personal interaction they are regular , respectable people who benefit from the freedoms we all share. By and large they don't attempt to change that. Conversely there are elements within certain communities in T&T that use association with the religion as a protective cloak for nefarious reasons. This trend would not have occurred if we had better national security institutions.

Going back to Preacher's original post it would be good to find out how the law treated with that murder. I'm cool with Muslim people but Sharia law is notoriously draconian. I wouldn't lie I would be nervous if groups starting advocating that here.

Offline kounty

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2013, 04:15:54 PM »
Jah Gol. jus don't speak sh!t too na man. You select a very certain battle at a very certain time in history and anybody with sense will know that. It have retards of all religions. When Christians do and talk sh!t nobody does say is Christianity or Jesus make them do it.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2013, 10:42:51 PM »
Jah Gol. jus don't speak sh!t too na man. You select a very certain battle at a very certain time in history and anybody with sense will know that. It have retards of all religions. When Christians do and talk sh!t nobody does say is Christianity or Jesus make them do it.

Do you have a specific point of criticism relating to the content of my post or do you want to label it as shit and procede on a tangent ?

I thought I was clear when I said 'religious people' and 'Holy Books'. It was not my intention to demonise Muslims. I could point to numerous scriptures in the book of Leviticus for instance for which things which are not even crimes today are punishable by death.

I took the time to reference a verse that supported the one Sammy posted and showed two others that directly contradicted it to support my opinion that different people use religious texts conveniently. This is a feature not unique to Islam as some used the bible to justify slavery ,segregation and other crimes commited , such as The inquisition .

My difficulty is not with with Muslims ,I am however weary of Sharia Law which is why I was curious about how they treated with the grusome murder Preacher referenced. Do some research on sharia and rape, adultery and blasphemy and you might understand why. Preacher might be getting tied up with the actions of individuals and attributing solely to their religion ,which is wrong . But it is foolish to ignore the harshness and backwardness of the system in countries where sharia law is enforced.

Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »
Jah Gol that's my issue.  And sadly I don't hear Muslims condemning these wicked acts.  Instead, you hear people trying to make an argument for how peaceful the religion is.   You have a man cutting off a woman's head in the street and not a soul helping her.  People ain't even running.  Any civilized country worth their salt, values their people as their greatest resource.  In turn laws are in place to protect the rights/rights to life of those people.   If you don't love who you can see, how can you love who you can't see?   
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline kounty

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2013, 06:24:39 AM »
Jah Gol. jus don't speak sh!t too na man. You select a very certain battle at a very certain time in history and anybody with sense will know that. It have retards of all religions. When Christians do and talk sh!t nobody does say is Christianity or Jesus make them do it.
Your original quotes taking up about half of your response from Sura 9 - "The Ultimatum" - is about an event in history - The Battle of Tabuk. I know you could search through the Bible and find many examples of battles, and I'm sure the justifications and reasoning used then will be taken VERBATUM (in battle) today only by a fundamentalist few.
I didn't write enough to go off on any tangent.
....
usually I would stop there but let me jump out and go off on a tangent.

I know you don't have it wrong. I can tell that you balanced enough to not hold preacher's position and you really went through great pains to show that. Respect!  :beermug: I'll tell you that preacher getting tie up with them american fundamentalist in the midwest and south they, scouring the internet to highlight what the most obtuse man in the middle of nowhere do and pin it on "Islam" in order to "win one for Jesus". I just send my two daughters to church with their grandparents yesterday, and I'm not muslim. and the funny thing is I think the muslims love Jesus more than preacher and them, because they will blow themselves up and die if you try to say anything about him. And the teachings they follow is most in line with what he said. I sure Jesus tell preacher what a good job he jus do there. (way to go partner)!
But Jah gol I know is b/c you actually take the time to know some people who are muslim to open your mind. Preacher, go and read just the 1st 9-10 lines of the Qur'an and come back and report what Jesus would disagree with. Then when you done add 10 more lines. Don't let Benny hinn & dem pick and chose one and two lines out of context to tie up yuh head!

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2013, 10:39:57 AM »
Jah Gol. jus don't speak sh!t too na man. You select a very certain battle at a very certain time in history and anybody with sense will know that. It have retards of all religions. When Christians do and talk sh!t nobody does say is Christianity or Jesus make them do it.
Your original quotes taking up about half of your response from Sura 9 - "The Ultimatum" - is about an event in history - The Battle of Tabuk. I know you could search through the Bible and find many examples of battles, and I'm sure the justifications and reasoning used then will be taken VERBATUM (in battle) today only by a fundamentalist few.


Like this for instance :
Quote
deuteronomy 2:33-2:35

33the Lord our God gave him over to us; and we struck him down, along with his offspring and all his people. 34At that time we captured all his towns, and in each town we utterly destroyed men, women, and children. We left not a single survivor. 35Only the livestock we kept as spoil for ourselves, as well as the plunder of the towns that we had captured

joshua 10:30-10:30

30The Lord gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left no one remaining in it; and he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.


This is genocide.

I really don't like religious debates because its based on faith and interpretation and almost all the religious texts contain accounts of unspeakable atrocities. Thankfully most of the world has changed significantly and separation of Church and State has prevented fundamentalist interpretations to affect law.

Offline Bakes

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
"Every time I look on de internet I see Caribbean people half naked simulating sex with each other in public.  This isn't in one country either, but in several countries.  All of these countries are Christian countries.  Nobody seems to be trying to stop them. Nobody protesting.  I got real issue with Christianity today... seems Christianity is either a religion for hypocrites, or people with loose morals."

Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 02:25:29 AM »
Kounty you on kicks.   ;D   Here's the difference:  If a Christian Preacher, Priest or any Christian affiliation do some wicked crime.  Christians are the first to speak up and say that's wrong.  And those that don't share our faith are quick to criticize as well.  I'm still waiting to hear a unified voice from those "peaceful" Muslims against the repression of their people regarding human rights, liberties, education, inhumanity towards women and children, and the open violence towards people that don't believe what they believe.  I think it's funny that in a heart beat people quick to nasty up Christianity.  Ain't no seen.  Religion is empty anyways.  Somebody, put Islam on blast, then suddenly it's inappropriate to discuss other peoples religion.   People say all kinda thing about Jesus..say one thing about Mohamed and look trouble.  Yeah call me hypocrite.  But there is no punanny in heaven for the murders of innocent women and children.  I posted the clip you heard the guys testimony.  Some of you quick to turn a blind eye because he ain't saying what you want to hear. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 02:47:57 AM »
Rubbish - see the Muslim Council of Europe or any number of Muslim charities and organisations based in Europe. Crazy people are crazy people and will find justification in anything, if you need Christian examples, simply mentioning Kosovo is enough. Put bluntly, the Bible condones as much evil as the Qu'ran - be it taking the virgins as 'spoils', offering your Virgin daughters as rape victims to a mob (good old Lot), God angrily destroying everything (because?). Really you just have to glance at the Old Testament for your daily fill of evil, Levicticus is a popular read but Joshua aint much better, with all the cities he burns and loots.

Check the Sceptic's annotated Bible (they do the Qu'ran as well) - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm


Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 10:59:28 PM »
So your point is that bible more evil, as evil as?  There's a Council somewhere with charities?  So the question shouldn't be raised?  Why would someone cut off his wife's head in public and no one help?  What belief system leads to such a thing.  Sorry to break the news to yall but it's not just a bunch of random fanatics.  Since no one hit on it.  Here is what I believe the issue to be.   It's a simple concept of civilization around for centuries.  In order to protect your country and it's people, in order to be a part of the modern world you must separate church and state.  This cannot be a passive idea.  Failure to do this gives you the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades(Islamic and Christian), Hitler and his genocide and today public executions by civilians in the name of their faith.  Listen, even Israel understands this concept.  That old testament that you are quick to refer to is their Torah.  Why haven't they eradicated their enemies?  They have one of the best armies in the world.  You wanna give Iran a nuke and just hope a fanatic don't get their hands on it?   :)  Amen that in our society people free to simulate sex in public without the fear of execution and with that same freedom your girl child could grow up to be whatever she wants to be. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 11:02:04 PM by Preacher »
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 06:25:03 AM »
The bible doesnt demand separation of church and state, far from it. God is the supreme ruler above monarchs who are supposef to be held accountablr to that. I guess the same culture that has children's foreskins cut at birth and used to stone adulterers without people stopping it. There really isnt much of a difference - you all follow the same god after all.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 09:11:01 AM »
The bible doesnt demand separation of church and state, far from it. God is the supreme ruler above monarchs who are supposef to be held accountablr to that. I guess the same culture that has children's foreskins cut at birth and used to stone adulterers without people stopping it. There really isnt much of a difference - you all follow the same god after all.

Not trying to defend Preacher because he can for himself but you're actually wrong. There are numerous verses pointing out that citizens must be subject to the supreme law of the land once it doesn't conflict with keeping the commandments.



Quote
Matthew 22

20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away

Quote
Titus 3:1 - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Quote
John 18:36 - Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

There are however prescriptions of best practices for good governance and warnings for what happens if they are breached.

example

Quote
Proverbs 11:1 - A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Quote
Proverbs 29:4
By justice a king gives a country stability, but those who are greedy for bribes tear it down.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 01:19:27 PM »
Romans 13:1-5

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

The bible likes you to be very obedient when it comes to the state, and basically follow whatever evil they preach. Similar stuff in Titus 3:1. This is contradicted in Galatians (one of many contradictions :( )

My point - you both follow the Old Testament to a degree, and both faiths have lead to truly evil acts. It's either ignorance or hypocrisy or both to accuse Islam of somehow being especially more likely to lead to this evil - you're just born a couple hundred years too late to remember the evil (Salem Witch trials are probably the most famous, but there have been innumerable evils pursued in the name of faith)

Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 06:36:04 PM »
I could take you to task on them scriptures you using there but your point has merit.  You in a way coming to Islam's defense.  But I can agree that many wrongs have been done in the name of Faith on the "Christian" side.  But to use your own scriptural reference: Gov't is instituted by God.  It never said it's instituted by Faith in God or Religion.   See the difference?  The institution of Gov't is similar in some cases to parenting.  And when it works well it creates an environment that people can flourish in.  It's called Institutional Ideals such as marriage, family etc. It's purpose is to ensure harmonious development of the community, distribution of resources based on wants and needs and uphold the frame work of law.  IT'S AN IDEAL that means it's not perfect but necessary for the hope of and security of life/better life etc.  God has instituted the concept/ideal of Gov't but the people pick and grow the leaders.  They choose what to use that ideal for.  America also have radicals, and if given the opportunity they would do some crazy things.  America and free world countries understand that people are free to make their own choices.  And even if they don't agree with the choice the "Gov't ensures that they respect it"  And this is why you won't see personal public executions in some countries but you'll see them regularly in professing Islamic nations. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2013, 03:22:58 PM »
Countries that don't regularly execute people in public who are islamic;

Turkey
Tunisia
Maldives
Kosovo.

Majority Christian countries that have similar issues;

Papua New Guinea
Zambia,
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Colombia
Mexico
Rwanda
Angola
Uganda

Really you're confusing the issue here and you're jumping to blame Islam. Traditional and conservative countries, with lower levels of development often resort to capital punishment more than more developed countries with more secular constitutions. Anyone can murder in the name of some ideal or deity, especially if it's the prevailing cultural norm.

Really you need to check your bible - public executions are a key component of crime and punishment in the bible - be it form adultery to witchcraft, from the bible to the medieval ages to even the modern era in parts of Southern America, public execution was intertwined with religious foundations and methods of control (see Foucault's Discipline and Punish)

Offline Deeks

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2013, 06:05:11 PM »
while allyuh argue which religion is worse, here in an interesting or sad take on death, drugs,money and religion in Mexico. From todays BBC.

25 November 2013 Last updated at 19:10 ET Share this pageEmail Print Share this page

ShareFacebookTwitter.The country where exorcisms are on the riseBy Vladimir Hernandez
 
BBC Mundo
 
 
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Does God exist? Does the Devil exist? The Catholic church believes they both do - and some priests say they are currently having an immense battle in Mexico.

To some it may seem extraordinary, but priests say the country is under attack by Satan, and that more exorcists are needed to fight him.

This attack, they say, is showing itself in the gruesome drug-related violence, including human sacrifice, that has engulfed the country since 2006.

According to the latest official figures available, at least 70,000 people have died in this period, including gunmen, members of the security forces, and many innocent civilians.

But, the priests say, it's not just the numbers. The savagery also stands out.

In recent years it has not been uncommon in many parts of Mexico for children to find dismembered bodies on the streets on their way to school. Or for commuters on busy roads to drive past bridges with severely tortured corpses hanging from them. Scenes from hell.

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A mass exorcism at a church in Veracruz in Mexico
"We believe that behind all these big and structural evils there is a dark agent and his name is The Demon. That is why the Lord wants to have here a ministry of exorcism and liberation, for the fight against the Devil," says Father Carlos Triana, a priest, and an exorcist, in Mexico City.

"As much as we believe that the Devil was behind Adolf Hitler, possessing and directing him, we also believe that he (the Devil) is here behind the drug cartels."

Mexico's exorcists say there is unprecedented demand for their services.

Some are even not taking new cases, as they are having to exorcise demons almost every day.

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"This didn't happen before", says Father Francisco Bautista, another exorcist in Mexico City.

Most of the cases, he explains, require a lesser form of exorcism, called liberation prayers - effective when a person still controls part of his or her mind and body.

Only rarely does the Devil possess someone completely, he says, but when that happens, the bishop of the diocese must intervene.

In Bautista's view, the rising demand for exorcism is partly explained by the large numbers of Mexicans joining the cult of Saint Death, or Santa Muerte.

It is estimated that the cult, whose followers worship a skull in a wedding dress carrying a scythe, has some eight million followers in Mexico - and more among Mexican migrants in Central America, the US and Canada.

"It has also been adopted by the drug traffickers who ask her for help to avoid arrest and to make money," Bautista says. "In exchange they offer human sacrifices. And this has increased the violence in Mexico."

Another reason for the surge in exorcisms, he argues, is the decriminalisation of abortions in Mexico City, in 2007. Both the cult and abortion have given evil spirits a foothold in the country, he insists.

"Both things are closely related. There is an infestation of demons in Mexico because we have opened our doors to Death."

 
If it is surprising how many Mexicans believe in Saint Death, it may also be surprising how many believe, like Father Triana and Father Bautista, that the Devil and demons are at work in the country.

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Exorcism is an ancient practice and one that appears in many different religions, but many believers doubt the existence of demons.

A frontline of sorts for Mexico's exorcists is the northern region of the country where, for the last seven years, the Mexican military has been waging war against the heavily armed and cash-rich drug cartels.

In parallel with the soldiers, priests have been waging a spiritual conflict. One is Father Ernesto Caro, based in Monterrey, a city blighted by frequent shootouts and kidnappings.

He has exorcised several members of the drug cartels - and there is one case he cannot forget. It was a gang hitman, who confessed to horrific crimes. Father Caro said the man had been in charge of cutting the bodies into pieces and he said he enjoyed hearing them cry as he did so. Others he burned alive.

The priest says the man had committed his life to the service of Saint Death.

"The cult is the first step into Satanism and then into this band of people [the drug traffickers], that's why he was chosen for that job."

 
"Santa Muerte is being used by all our drug dealers and those linked to these brutal murders. We've found that most of them, if not all, follow Santa Muerte," he adds.

The cult is also followed by criminals, policemen, politicians and artists.

"The biggest presence is in the poorest sectors of Mexican society," says journalist Jose Gil Olmos, who has published two books on Saint Death.

The first references to Saint Death occur in the 18th Century, he says, not in Aztec times, as many believe.

"In modern times the numbers of followers exploded, especially after the early 1990s economic meltdown."

Many middle-class Mexicans found themselves in misery. In despair they searched for hope, and some turned to Saint Death, Olmos says.

"From approximately eight years ago we have seen Santa Muerte having a big presence with drug cartel members, from the bosses all the way down. Why? Because these people say that Jesus or the Virgin Mary can't provide what they ask for, which is to be protected from soldiers, police and their enemies."

 
I went to see what this cult was all about at its biggest annual ceremony in the neighbourhood of Tepito, in Mexico City, a place riddled with drug trafficking and crime.

It's here that one of the biggest sanctuaries of Saint Death in Mexico is located. It's kept tidy by Enriqueta Romero, a woman in her sixties, whose life changed dramatically 12 years ago when she shocked her neighbours by putting a Saint Death figure in her window.

Over the years, more and more people started arriving to pay tribute to the skull figure in a dress. And now thousands gather for the cult's most important ceremony on 31 October, the eve of Mexico's Day of the Dead festival.

"She loves us and heals us. People come here to ask her for help - a son in prison or with Aids, or something to eat," says Romero.

During my visit, some people reach the shrine walking on their knees. One of them is a man who carries a 20-day-old baby in his arms. He's come to present his daughter to the skull.

 
I also see ordinary working-class families, pregnant women asking Death to protect the life of their unborn child, and plenty of people heavily tattooed with the female skull.

Are these people possessed, as the church says?

"No, I also believe in God, in the Virgin, and all the saints, but I am more devout to [Saint] Death. She is the one that helps me the most," says Jose Roberto Jaimes, a man in his 20s who's come on his knees to thank the skull after surviving three years in jail.

I get similar answers from all of the cult followers I talk to.

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Romero says the church itself bears responsibility for the rise of the cult, having shot itself in the foot with the worldwide child abuse scandal.

"They finished off our faith with the things that the priests did. What can they criticise? That we believe in Death? That is not bad. What's bad is what they did," says Romero.

But does she feel comfortable knowing that people behind horrific crimes also follow this cult?

"We are in a free country and everyone can do what they want. We all will have to answer to God at some point," she says.

It was former President Felipe Calderon who launched the offensive against drug cartels in Mexico in 2006, by deploying troops to the worst-hit areas.

Over the years the military has discovered numerous shrines, temples and even churches of Saint Death across the region, and plenty of evidence of human sacrifice.

"He [Calderon] started a war against them and he started a war as well against the cult of Saint Death, and he asked the church to help him," says Father Ernesto Caro.

"The Church is not going to go on TV and say: 'Look, we think that Mexico is going to get better and be saved if we do exorcisms because the Devil is behind all of this.' We have to be discreet [with exorcisms] or else we may be ridiculed, even by our own followers," adds Father Carlos Triana.

Whether exorcisms can help reduce the drug-related violence in Mexico - especially the sadistic killings - is debatable. Although at this point, many in Mexico would probably welcome any help if it brings them some peace.

You can hear and see more about this topic in Crossing Continents, BBC Radio 4 on 28 November 2013 at 11:00 GMT, and Our World, on BBC News Channel or BBC World on the weekend 30 November/1 December 2013, or catch up later on BBC iPlayer.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2013, 08:30:20 PM »
Yes it's definitely possession by the devil, rather than high demand from their rich neighbour combined with an ineffective statr, poor drug laws in both the us and mexico for decades, a domestic economy that doesnt provide employment in the poorest areas, and a legacy of arms and momey left over from the cold war...

Offline Preacher

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Re: I got real issue with Islam today
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2013, 02:12:18 PM »
Ey fellas... Tiresais..  I've been gone for a minute.  Geeks, What's the scene?  I trust that allyuh Thanksgiving was good.  Tiresais, why you so harsh on the Mexico issue? That's just a small radical faction.  The Mexican Gov't publicly denouncing things like that, US too.  Hard luck for the lady who passed.  Anyways, thanks for the resources etc.   Lime was nice. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

 

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