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socafighter

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A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« on: March 04, 2014, 06:00:19 PM »
A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
By Gwynne Dyer
Story Created: Mar 4, 2014 at 7:31 PM ECT
Express


 The first mistake of the Ukrainian revolutionaries was to abandon the agreement of February 23 to create a national unity government, including some of the revolutionary leaders, that would administer the country until new elections in December. It would have left President Viktor Yanukovych in office until then, but with severely diminished powers, as the constitution would have been changed to restore the authority of parliament.

Leaving a man who ordered the murder of dozens of protesters in power even temporarily was a bitter pill to swallow, but it had tacit Russian support because it saved President Vladimir Putin’s face. However, the crowds on Independence Square refused to accept the deal, and Yanukovych was forced to flee.
Parliament subsequently ratified his removal, but it was the mob, and especially the right-wing fighting groups like Praviy Sektor, who led, and the leadership who followed. Putin was humiliated, and he was given the pretext for claiming that Ukraine had fallen to a “fascist coup” as a justification, however flimsy, for rejecting the legitimacy of the new Ukrainian government.
The second grave error—and this one was entirely unforced—was the new government’s decision to repeal the law giving Russian equal status as an official language in provinces with large Russian-speaking populations. It delighted Ukrainian-speaking ultra-nationalists in the west of the country, but it needlessly alienated the two-fifths of Ukraine’s population who speak Russian as their first language.

So now Putin is bringing pressure on the new Ukrainian government by backing a secessionist movement in Crimea (where three-fifths of the people speak Russian). The rubber-stamp Russian parliament has also granted him authority to use Russian troops elsewhere in Ukraine to “protect” Russians—by which it seems to mean Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine who speak Russian, although they are not actually under attack.
Putin has not yet sent Russian troops into the eastern parts of Ukraine. However, pro-Russian crowds have appeared in cities like Kharkov, Donetsk and Lugansk demanding Russian “protection”—amid plausible reports that many people in those crowds are actually Russians imported from just across the border for the occasion, and not Russian-speaking Ukrainians at all. The promised Ukrainian election on  May 25 may never happen.

The Ukrainian army has been mobilised, and actual fighting could be only days away if the Russians invade eastern Ukraine, or attack the encircled Ukrainian garrisons in Crimea. Maybe Putin is just bluffing; more likely, he doesn’t yet know himself how far he is willing to go. But one thing generally leads to another, and some bluffs are hard to walk away from. Are we on the brink of a new Cold War?
It wouldn’t be a hot war, except in Ukraine. Nobody will send troops to defend Ukraine, nor should they. Nobody is in position to stop Russia from conquering Ukraine if it chooses to, and turning it into a wider European war (or a world war) would not help matters.

In any case, Moscow would probably not try to conquer ALL of Ukraine. Kiev and the the west would fight very hard, and after they were defeated they would continue to resist a Russian occupation with guerilla tactics, including terrorism. Putin doesn’t need that, so part of Ukraine would remain free, and call for outside help.
It would come, in the form of financial and military aid, and maybe even what has hitherto been rigorously excluded from the discussion: NATO membership. And there Russia and everybody in NATO would sit for the next five, ten or 20 years in a frozen confrontation that would include a trade embargo, an arms race, and a remote but real possibility of a nuclear war.
This is not at all what Putin intends or expects, of course. He is calculating that once he controls the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine, he will be able to enforce a restructuring of the country as a federation in which the government of the eastern, Russian-speaking part will be permanently under Russia’s thumb, and will have a veto on the decisions of the central government.

That’s all Putin wants out of this: a Ukrainian government that always respects Russia’s wishes. It could even pursue a different policy on issues like human rights, if it wants (so long as it doesn’t give Russians ideas). He doesn’t want to micro-manage the place. He’s not out to conquer the world. He’s not even out to re-conquer Eastern Europe.

But Putin’s calculations about Ukraine have been wrong every single time since the turn of the century. He backed Yanukovych before 2004, and the Orange Revolution proved him wrong. He backed Yanukovych even more enthusiastically after 2010; the policy blew up in his face again. And here he is yet again, backing Yanukovych as the president-in-exile of his Russia-friendly fantasy version of Ukraine.
His calculations are wrong. If he continues down this road, he will cause a quite needless political disaster.

• Gwynne Dyer is an independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 06:46:28 PM »
Quote
But Putin’s calculations about Ukraine have been wrong every single time since the turn of the century. He backed Yanukovych before 2004, and the Orange Revolution proved him wrong. He backed Yanukovych even more enthusiastically after 2010; the policy blew up in his face again. And here he is yet again, backing Yanukovych as the president-in-exile of his Russia-friendly fantasy version of Ukraine.

Putin couldn't give a damn about Yanukovych at this point. Events and geopolitical ambitions have overtaken that. Yanukovych holds symbolic value, a convenient rallying reference point etc. ... but he is imminently a relic in-waiting.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:39:23 AM by asylumseeker »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws</a>

Think of the 2022 conversation regarding reparations as the item tabled for future discussion when initially raised for negotiation during talks in 1834. A lot of intere$t has accrued.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 08:13:02 PM »
Putin has already been quoted as saying that Ya-whatever the rest of his name is, political's career is over and that he has already told him so.

Anyway, this article was hardly insightful at all.
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Offline Deeks

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 08:26:14 PM »
Us to Ukraine          5687 miles
Russia to Ukraine      0 miles

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 09:21:39 PM »
Us to Ukraine          5687 miles
Russia to Ukraine      0 miles

Aitos Logistics Center to Crimean Peninsula 727 miles
Bezmer AFB to Crimean Peninsula 831 miles
Izmir AFB to Crimean Peninsula 1,041 miles



Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 03:43:47 AM »
VP is a headache for the WH and BO, SB and FIFA, MP and UEFA.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws</a>

Think of the 2022 conversation regarding reparations as the item tabled for future discussion when initially raised for negotiation during talks in 1834. A lot of intere$t has accrued.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 01:05:28 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

Ukraine crisis: Does Russia have a case?

Russia says it is acting in Ukraine to protect the human rights of its citizens. But what justification does it have for taking de facto control of Crimea?

What is Russia's claim to Crimea?
 
Its historical links with the peninsula go back to Catherine the Great in the 18th Century, when Russia conquered southern Ukraine and Crimea, taking them from the Ottoman Empire. In 1954, Crimea was handed to Ukraine as a gift by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, who was himself half-Ukrainian. Only 10 years earlier, Joseph Stalin had deported Crimea's entire Tatar population, some 300,000 people, allegedly for co-operating with Hitler's Germany.

When Ukraine became independent in 1991, Russian President Boris Yeltsin agreed that Crimea could remain in Ukraine, with Russia's Black Sea fleet remaining at Sevastopol under lease. That lease was in recent years extended to 2042.

Is there a legal basis for Russia's actions?

Under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the US, Russia, Ukraine and the UK agreed not to threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. They also pledged never to use economic coercion to subordinate Ukraine to their own interest.

Russia says its decision to send troops into Ukraine is necessary to protect Russian citizens.

There is an ethnic Russian majority in Ukraine's autonomous republic of Crimea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is based at Sevastopol, where much of the population have Russian passports. But the US insists there is no legal basis for the Russian move, accusing Moscow of acting unilaterally in violation of its commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty. The G7 group of leading economies agrees.

Under the terms of its agreement with Ukraine, Russia is entitled to have 25,000 troops on the peninsula and currently has an estimated 16,000 deployed there. But these troops have to remain on base. Pro-Russian troops have been deployed across Crimea. Moscow insists they are local self-defence forces, but there are widespread reports that they are from Russia.

So what is Russia's response?
 
Initially, Russia denied breaching the Budapest Memo. But Moscow now says the situation is continuing to worsen in Ukraine after the seizure of power by "radical extremists", threatening the lives and safety of residents in Crimea and other south-eastern regions. It also points to the new government's "trampling" on the 21 February agreement signed by ousted President Viktor Yanukovych.

What happened to the 21 February agreement?

When the president fled Kiev, the opposition moved in to fill the power vacuum. But earlier that week, in a bid to calm the crisis, both sides had agreed a deal to restore the 2004 constitution and reduce the president's powers. That deal was signed by Mr Yanukovych and opposition leaders as well as by three EU foreign ministers - but fast-moving events soon rendered it out of date. It was not signed by the Russian official present.

What about the role of 'radical extremists'?
 
Moscow has regularly complained that the protests in Kiev's Independence Square were hijacked by the far right, who have since gone on to take power in a new government that includes "undisguised Nazis". Two groups, Right Sector and Svoboda (Freedom), are frequently mentioned and there are regular references to wartime nationalist Stepan Bandera, seen as a hero to some but accused by others of being a Nazi collaborator linked to massacres of Jews and Poles.


The far right was a minority element in the protests that attracted a wide cross-section of support from Kiev and other cities. They were, however, often involved in the most violent confrontations and nationalist symbols were frequently visible in the square.

The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party has four posts in the government. Oleksandr Sych is deputy prime minister and Oleh Makhnitsky becomes acting chief prosecutor. It also runs the agriculture and ecology portfolios but its leader, who has been accused of anti-Semitism, is not in the government.

Protest leader Andriy Parubiy has become chairman of the National Security Council (NSC). A co-founder of Svoboda and labelled an extremist by the ousted president, one of Mr Parubiy's deputies at the NSC is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of far-right paramilitary group Right Sector.

Is the government anti-Russian?
 
Part of the problem is that the government sworn in last week had little connection to Ukraine's more Russophile east. One of its first actions was to repeal a 2012 law recognising Russian as an official regional language. The decision was widely criticised across Ukraine.


Were Russian citizens in danger in Crimea?

Last week, there were disturbances in the Crimean capital, Simferopol, when pro-Moscow protesters and supporters of Ukraine's new leaders confronted each other outside the parliament building. After reports had emerged of Russian troops taking up positions across Crimea, Moscow accused Kiev of sending armed men to destabilise the peninsula. It was already in Russian hands.

 
Does Crimea create a precedent for other Ukrainian cities?
 
The circumstances in the eastern Ukrainian cities of Donetsk and Kharkiv are comparable to the situation in Crimea. There have been pro-Russian protests in both predominantly Russian-speaking cities. In Donetsk, some 100 demonstrators stormed the regional administration building on Monday and a businessman, Pavel Gubarev, declared himself people's governor.


Correspondents described how the protesters in Donetsk chanted, "Putin, come". Russian troops have taken part in exercises over the border and President Vladimir Putin has spoken of sending the military onto "the territory of Ukraine" without specifying where. However, he has since said Russia will use force in Ukraine only as as last resort.

So what does Russia want?
 
In Crimea, Moscow appears keen to strengthen its grip, with a package of financial aid to the peninsula in the form of pensions and salaries. It has also promised that a $3bn (£1.8bn) bridge will be built, linking the Russian mainland to Crimea over the Kerch Strait, a distance of some 4.5km (2.8 miles).


Across Ukraine, Moscow is calling for the 21 February agreement to be implemented. Vladimir Putin accepts there is no return for the ousted president but Moscow is stressing the need for a government of national unity. Russia sees the current government as anti-constitutional and not representative of the native Russian-speaking population. It also wants "extremist gangs" to disband.
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Offline Deeks

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2014, 03:21:57 PM »
The WC maybe a headache for Putin. They just may take it away from Russia if the situation don't improve.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2014, 05:05:43 PM »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet
Ukraine crisis: bugged call reveals conspiracy theory about Kiev snipers

Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet tells EU's Cathy Ashton about claim that provocateurs were behind Maidan killings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8
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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2014, 06:57:52 PM »
ah nearly choke when ah hear muh boy kerry pointing fingers talkin bout "invasion under false claims". babylon have zero shame in dey mout.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 09:59:46 PM »
this is about Russia's gas supplies to europe and the gas lines that run through the ukraine, the revolution was a way to put an end to a proposed pact by putin and the former pm and Russia's monoploy on europe because reserves were found in western ukraine. so a pact with the eu instead of Russia is the beginning of the end  of the monopoly... also cuts revenue to the govt for their defense budget... 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 10:02:24 PM by Controversial »

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2014, 10:46:54 PM »
I did not know that they found gas reserves in Western Ukraine.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
ah nearly choke when ah hear muh boy kerry pointing fingers talkin bout "invasion under false claims". babylon have zero shame in dey mout.

What should he be ashamed of?

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 11:14:46 PM »
this is about Russia's gas supplies to europe and the gas lines that run through the ukraine, the revolution was a way to put an end to a proposed pact by putin and the former pm and Russia's monoploy on europe because reserves were found in western ukraine. so a pact with the eu instead of Russia is the beginning of the end  of the monopoly... also cuts revenue to the govt for their defense budget... 

Ukraine is a major gas CONSUMER... in case you didn't know.  They are in no position to threaten Russia's monopoly in Europe, even if they discovered these "reserves" that you claim.  This is about Russia trying to stem the tide of Western influence in the region.  The Ukraine was being considered for membership in the EU.  Where there is a border dispute, or a dispute over the legitimacy of the leadership of a country, membership would be delayed.  This delay is precisely what Putin has in mind, as it buys him time to influence the leadership of the Ukraine, either thru diplomatic channels, or by actively supporting sympathetic candidates.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 08:56:08 AM »
Ukraine crisis: Crimea parliament asks to join Russia

MPs in Crimea have asked Moscow to allow the southern Ukrainian region to become part of the Russian Federation.

Parliament said if its request was granted, Crimean citizens could give their view in a referendum on 16 March.

Ukraine's interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said the move had no legal grounds.

Crimea, a region whose population is mostly ethnic Russian, has been at the centre of tensions following the fall of Ukraine's pro-Moscow president.

Pro-Russian and Russian forces have been in de facto control of the peninsula for several days.

The announcement from Crimea's parliament comes as EU leaders meet in Brussels to discuss how to respond to Russia's troop deployment on Ukrainian soil.

Meanwhile, Washington says it is issuing visa restrictions on a number of Ukrainian and Russian officials and individuals in line with a policy "to deny visas to those responsible for, or complicit in, threatening the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine".

Formal request
The Crimean parliament resolved "to enter into the Russian Federation with the rights of a subject of the Russian Federation".

It said it had asked Russian President Vladimir Putin "to start the procedure".

"This means we have reunited with our motherland which we have been a part of for so long," said Crimea's deputy parliamentary speaker, Sergei Tsekov.

The Kremlin said President Putin was aware of developments but no response has yet been made.

If Russia agrees to Crimea's request, the Crimean people will be asked two questions in the 16 March referendum, the statement says:

Are you in favour of reuniting Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?
Are you in favour of retaining the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine?
Mr Tsekov said he believed most Crimeans would "support our decision at the referendum".

Ukraine's new interim government does not recognise the leadership in Crimea - which was sworn in at an emergency session while the building was under siege from pro-Russian armed men last week.

Interim Economy Minister Pavlo Sheremeta said it would be unconstitutional for Crimea to join the Russian Federation.

But Crimea's Deputy PM Rustam Temirgaliev dismissed the suggestion, saying Crimea views the new authorities in Kiev as illegitimate.

'Tough talks'
Mr Yatsenyuk met the 28 EU leaders before their emergency meeting in Brussels.

He said that Ukraine had to be "one united" nation and that Ukrainians stood ready to "protect our country" if Russia extended its military action in the country.

He noted there was a "huge military imbalance", saying: "We have less arms, no nuclear weapons... but we have spirit."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26465962
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Offline Deeks

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 09:33:42 AM »
what ah friggin mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Allyuh think it worth sending troops to stop Ras-Putin? You know Obama will get blame for that!

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 10:09:06 AM »


Ok lets here your comments to this ...

Russia has invested heavily in  Ukraine when it was part of the USSR .

Ukraine biggest problem is debts ..Russia is owed billions . Russia is selling natural gas at
a 50% discount to the Ukraine . Ukraine gas bill not paid is over 6 Billions uS dollars owed
to Russia .

Instead of getting aid from Western Countries 15 Billion with conditions and interest , plus
IMF controls ..Ukraine will never recover from this .

Why not let Russia take control of Ukraine , the debts will be absorbed , no army killings ,
no civilian refugee problems and the people are fed .

I am aware freedom of choice will come up but in the end , human suffering will be saved.
if not an ethnic war will start in the Ukraine ..Russian vs  every nationality living in Ukraine.

No one wins....

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2014, 11:43:59 AM »


Ok lets here your comments to this ...

Russia has invested heavily in  Ukraine when it was part of the USSR .

Ukraine biggest problem is debts ..Russia is owed billions . Russia is selling natural gas at
a 50% discount to the Ukraine . Ukraine gas bill not paid is over 6 Billions uS dollars owed
to Russia .

Instead of getting aid from Western Countries 15 Billion with conditions and interest , plus
IMF controls ..Ukraine will never recover from this .

Why not let Russia take control of Ukraine , the debts will be absorbed , no army killings ,
no civilian refugee problems and the people are fed .

I am aware freedom of choice will come up but in the end , human suffering will be saved.
if not an ethnic war will start in the Ukraine ..Russian vs  every nationality living in Ukraine.

No one wins....

Russia wants neither Crimea nor the Ukraine.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2014, 01:05:16 PM »
As Dutty does say, this is more Bek-eh-nell than a Tom Clancy chapter 8. lol
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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 02:17:21 PM »
what ah friggin mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Allyuh think it worth sending troops to stop Ras-Putin? You know Obama will get blame for that!

Send troops fuh what? steups
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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2014, 07:08:32 PM »
ah nearly choke when ah hear muh boy kerry pointing fingers talkin bout "invasion under false claims". babylon have zero shame in dey mout.

What should he be ashamed of?
babylon (and its overseas spokesperson) - iraq? ...or you pick one. grenada sounds like the lines russia is using. same lines used in panama too.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 08:57:53 PM »
babylon (and its overseas spokesperson) - iraq? ...or you pick one. grenada sounds like the lines russia is using. same lines used in panama too.

What does Iraq, Grenada or Panama have to do with the Obama administration?  You might have a point if either Obama or Kerry were supporters of Bush's war in Iraq or if they had anything to do with Reagan's policies, but they didn't.  Would it make sense to blame the current PP gov't in TnT for Eric William's ambivalence about the WI Federation?  What about for Manning's actions... they culpable for that?  Or is that kind of porous logic only reserved for the US?

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 06:27:28 PM »

What does Iraq, Grenada or Panama have to do with the Obama administration?  You might have a point if either Obama or Kerry were supporters of Bush's war in Iraq or if they had anything to do with Reagan's policies, but they didn't.  Would it make sense to blame the current PP gov't in TnT for Eric William's ambivalence about the WI Federation?  What about for Manning's actions... they culpable for that?  Or is that kind of porous logic only reserved for the US?
(aside that kerry vote for the war flip flop debacle) In light of T&T history, Kamla cannot criticize any other caribbean nation right now if she were suddenly gung-ho about Federation. Or Jong-Un cyah set off nuclear tests and expect a clean slate like if Jung-Il never exist. Countries don't get to reset every 4 years. And as far as I know, Obama in no official capacity ever apologize to anyone for any of them things. So he inherit them, just like netanyahu and every other leader in the world inherit the decisions previously made by their office.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2014, 01:01:45 PM »
(aside that kerry vote for the war flip flop debacle) In light of T&T history, Kamla cannot criticize any other caribbean nation right now if she were suddenly gung-ho about Federation. Or Jong-Un cyah set off nuclear tests and expect a clean slate like if Jung-Il never exist. Countries don't get to reset every 4 years. And as far as I know, Obama in no official capacity ever apologize to anyone for any of them things. So he inherit them, just like netanyahu and every other leader in the world inherit the decisions previously made by their office.

In politics people love to throw out that whole "flip flop" talk... and the gullible lap it up as some kinda 'negative' strike against the target politician.  You have to be a special kind of idiot to maintain an insupportable position in the face of societal changes or new factual evidence.  It is a convenient charge at best.  Did Strom Thurmond 'flip flop' when he switched from opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1957 (with a record 24 hours and 18 minutes filibuster), to supporting civil rights initiatives after 1970? 

All of this besides the fact that you are wrong, Kerry never flip-flopped on his opposition to the War against Iraq:

Quote
Yet an examination of Kerry's words in more than 200 speeches and statements, comments during candidate forums and answers to reporters' questions does not support the accusation (that Kerry has changed his stance on the war).

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/NEWS-ANALYSIS-Flip-flopping-charge-unsupported-2723125.php

As if that spectacular piece of nonsense was not enough, you then absurdly claim that Obama never apologized for Bush's war, therefore he "inherited" responsibility for it.  Put another way: until he accepts responsibility for the war, he is responsible for the war.  This just highlights the absurdity of the proposition.  Does anyone hold David Cameron, or did they hold Gordon Brown responsible for Tony Blair's misguided support of Bush's war?  Maybe I missed where the former colonies are holding the Cameron administration responsible for the exploitation of their territories.

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2014, 08:26:48 PM »
The Bush campaign accused Kerry of flip-flopping on Iraq. Kerry and his supporters pushed back hard at those allegations by insisting the Democrat was “honest, consistent and right.”
It’s not inconsistent for Kerry to authorize Bush to go to war and then criticize the president’s execution of the war. But for Kerry to say he “opposed the president’s decision to go into Iraq” ignores the ample record that shows the Democrat agreed with Bush that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and should be forcibly removed from power, and it ignores his vote that allowed Bush to do just that.
– Eugene Kiely
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/kerry-spins-his-record-on-iraq/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/world/americas/caribbean-nations-to-seek-reparations-putting-price-on-damage-of-slavery.html?_r=0
relevant to us. wonder if cameron gov't would say he have nothing to do with that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23983036 Or I wonder why UK hesitant on acting on Syria based on Iraq. Nobody going to confuse them with Blair now!?

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 08:49:38 PM »
What is remarkable is that when the west were patting each other on the back for overthrowing a democratically elected govt in Ukraine and celebrating the encirclement of Russia with NATO  bases , they gave no thought to the push back that will be emanating from Putin and Russia .
 They played into Putin hands for he has not fired  a single shot and Crimea is back in Russia hands  , rightfully where it belongs as Khrushchev an ethnic  Ukrainian had no right to give it to Ukraine in the  first place .
 Putin is a brilliant strategist and the West is now running around like a headless turkeys basically pleading with Putin to negotiate with the puppets in Kiev
 Vlav has them by the balls and Obama , Cameron , Merkel and Hollandia  are exposed for the cretins that they are
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 08:53:01 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 09:18:14 PM »
The Bush campaign accused Kerry of flip-flopping on Iraq. Kerry and his supporters pushed back hard at those allegations by insisting the Democrat was “honest, consistent and right.”
It’s not inconsistent for Kerry to authorize Bush to go to war and then criticize the president’s execution of the war. But for Kerry to say he “opposed the president’s decision to go into Iraq” ignores the ample record that shows the Democrat agreed with Bush that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and should be forcibly removed from power, and it ignores his vote that allowed Bush to do just that.
– Eugene Kiely
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/kerry-spins-his-record-on-iraq/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/world/americas/caribbean-nations-to-seek-reparations-putting-price-on-damage-of-slavery.html?_r=0
relevant to us. wonder if cameron gov't would say he have nothing to do with that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23983036 Or I wonder why UK hesitant on acting on Syria based on Iraq. Nobody going to confuse them with Blair now!?

On Kerry, you said (since yuh having a hard time keeping focus):
Quote
ah nearly choke when ah hear muh boy kerry pointing fingers talkin bout "invasion under false claims". babylon have zero shame in dey mout.

Kerry never favored "invasion under false claims" and when it became clear that Bush lied he was critical of both the deception and the war.  The UN authorized the use of force, in case yuh forget... based on the same lies that the Bush cabal spun.  Putin has no such mandate or support/substantiation of his basis for intervening in the Ukraine.  But if yuh really want to venture down this pointless, irrelevant "flip-flop" road:

Quote
Kerry on Meet the Press on Aug. 31, 2003. "In the resolution that we passed, we did not empower the president to do regime change," says Kerry. That's consistent with Kerry's previous statements calling for "heat," "inspections," "process," and cooperation with "allies."

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/ballot_box/2004/08/would_kerry_vote_today_for_the_iraq_war.single.html

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Kerry wrote in the Times that there is “no question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction” and needs to be removed. But he called on the administration to exhaust “all other avenues of protecting our national interest” and to build a broad coalition of “support from the region and from our allies.”

This from the very same link you provided... maybe yuh didn't read that part in yuh haste to find where he voted to support the war.  He always called for getting international support and exhausting diplomacy first... quite the opposite of what Putin is doing now.  So he's being inconsistent how?

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 09:33:05 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/world/americas/caribbean-nations-to-seek-reparations-putting-price-on-damage-of-slavery.html?_r=0
relevant to us. wonder if cameron gov't would say he have nothing to do with that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23983036 Or I wonder why UK hesitant on acting on Syria based on Iraq. Nobody going to confuse them with Blair now!?

On the first... that link supports your position, how?  Caribbean nations asking for reparations are blaming Cameron for colonialization?  The notion that the UK benefited from its past colonialization of these nations and thus must compensate them, is noble and supported to a certain degree by logic.  That however is hardly the same as suggesting that the Obama administration are hypocrites for criticizing an act arguably the same as that committed by Bush.

On the second, it actually proves my point.  The Cameron administration is clearly distancing itself and disavowing the mistakes made by Blair.  So... this helps your argument, how?

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2014, 09:35:00 PM »
What is remarkable is that when the west were patting each other on the back for overthrowing a democratically elected govt in Ukraine and celebrating the encirclement of Russia with NATO  bases , they gave no thought to the push back that will be emanating from Putin and Russia .
 They played into Putin hands for he has not fired  a single shot and Crimea is back in Russia hands  , rightfully where it belongs as Khrushchev an ethnic  Ukrainian had no right to give it to Ukraine in the  first place .
 Putin is a brilliant strategist and the West is now running around like a headless turkeys basically pleading with Putin to negotiate with the puppets in Kiev
 Vlav has them by the balls and Obama , Cameron , Merkel and Hollandia  are exposed for the cretins that they are

When did the West overthrow the Ukrainian government?

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 09:59:54 PM »
 Are you unaware of the fact that the west spent 5 billion dollars to  undermine the legitimate elected govt of Ukraine by hiring these neo Nazis fascists thugs in  Kiev . ?
 I suggest that you should listen to the Nuland tapes again .