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Author Topic: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin  (Read 45703 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #240 on: April 16, 2014, 08:03:38 PM »
Given the sources, I really shouldn't be surprised that is Ribbit and Ramgoat who are leading the chorus on this "coup" talk.  I surprise either of them could find the time to stop swinging from each other's nuts long enough to log on and post.  The fact of the matter is that Yanukovych's government had a very tenuous hold on power and he relied on the support of the opposition to maintain power.  Following the protests he lost the support of 75% of Parliament, who voted for his removal from office, then his own party disavowed him.  He subsequently fled the country.  No one "overthrow" him, Parliament withdrew its support of him and he was unable to stay in power.  It's as simple as that.  Anyone calling that a "coup" has nary a clue what they're talking about... but again, considering the sources, that's actually being redundant.
    Are you dense ?   Regardless of whether parliament withdrew their support , the presidency is separate from parliament and he could have still remained president .
 Parliament only withdrew their support after he fled .
 The president wasn't stupid, he knew the fate that awaited him when the EU and the US are involved .
 Remember Saddam Hussein and  Qaddafi?.

Listen fella, doh waste yuh time addressing me... you have to at least have some basic understanding of subject-verb agreement if you want to engage in any back and forth with me.  That without even addressing the utter shit that you post on the regular.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #241 on: April 16, 2014, 08:30:49 PM »
Given the sources, I really shouldn't be surprised that is Ribbit and Ramgoat who are leading the chorus on this "coup" talk.  I surprise either of them could find the time to stop swinging from each other's nuts long enough to log on and post.  The fact of the matter is that Yanukovych's government had a very tenuous hold on power and he relied on the support of the opposition to maintain power.  Following the protests he lost the support of 75% of Parliament, who voted for his removal from office, then his own party disavowed him.  He subsequently fled the country.  No one "overthrow" him, Parliament withdrew its support of him and he was unable to stay in power.  It's as simple as that.  Anyone calling that a "coup" has nary a clue what they're talking about... but again, considering the sources, that's actually being redundant.
    Are you dense ?   Regardless of whether parliament withdrew their support , the presidency is separate from parliament and he could have still remained president .
 Parliament only withdrew their support after he fled .
 The president wasn't stupid, he knew the fate that awaited him when the EU and the US are involved .
 Remember Saddam Hussein and  Qaddafi?.

Listen fella, doh waste yuh time addressing me... you have to at least have some basic understanding of subject-verb agreement if you want to engage in any back and forth with me.  That without even addressing the utter shit that you post on the regular.
  Subject , object , verb , tence , . mere deflection .. you pretend dat you know everything but  in reality you know dick all .
 It was you who  engaged   me from my first posting  here to show how smart you is and how stupid I is .
 I dont need to engage wid you   because you dont impress me , now  piss  off  .

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #242 on: April 16, 2014, 10:36:37 PM »
Subject , object , verb , tence , . mere deflection .. you pretend dat you know everything but  in reality you know dick all .
 It was you who  engaged   me from my first posting  here to show how smart you is and how stupid I is .
 I dont need to engage wid you   because you dont impress me , now  piss  off  .

You are an irrepressible c**t of the highest magnitude, you know very little about what you're putting your mouth in, but kill you dead is everybody else who schupid.  Tun tun... under the 2004 amendment to the constitution more power vested in the Parliament than in the President.  Yanukovych pack the Supreme Court and get them to overturn the Amendments... an occurrence which itself was clearly illegal.  All of this is what led to the idiot losing the support of the people and of Parliament.  The Ukrainian Presidency is impotent without the support of Parliament... Yanukovych knew this... even if your dumb ass can't appreciate that fact.  Calling it a coup d'etat doesn't make it so.  This is the last I will be responding to you and yuh bullshit conspiratorial rantings.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #243 on: April 17, 2014, 06:30:25 AM »
Putin cautious on 'right' to send troops into Ukraine
BBC News


Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he has "a right" to send troops into Ukraine but hopes he will "not have to exercise that right".

He was speaking live on Russian TV after a clash in Mariupol, eastern Ukraine, in which three pro-Russian protesters were reported killed.

Mr Putin said he hoped the crisis would be resolved through dialogue.

Talks have opened in Geneva between Russia, Ukraine, the EU and US - the first since unrest erupted in Crimea.

In his annual live television phone-in, Mr Putin warned the Ukrainian authorities of "the abyss they're heading into" and urged dialogue.

He also admitted for the first time that Russian forces had been active in Crimea, which was annexed by Moscow last month. Previously he insisted that the camouflaged, masked gunmen who took over Crimea were a local "self-defence" force.

Read More

So now that Putin has admitted he was responsible in Crimea, will they change their tune? My ass. Lets see the goalposts move!

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #244 on: April 17, 2014, 10:59:10 AM »
I seem to recall a select group of empty vessels on this site arguing that the mysterious masked men seen "guarding" the Ukrainian military installations in Crimea were NOT Russians.

Putin Finally Admits To Sending Troops To Crimea

 BRETT LOGIURATO   
APR. 17, 2014, 7:07 AM    3,030 9

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.
Putin had repeatedly denied sending any forces to Crimea
  ahead of the March referendum there that eventually led to the region's annexation by Russia. Putin said the troops were deployed to protect Russian-speaking citizens in Crimea.

"Of course we had our servicemen behind the self-defense units of Crimea," Putin said during an annual televised call-in with the nation on Thursday. "We had to make sure what is happening now in eastern Ukraine didn't happen there."

Three pro-Russian militants died and 13 were wounded Thursday as Ukraine's military defended an attack on its Black Sea base, according to The Associated Press.

The United States and other Western nations have accused Russia of being behind similar unrest in eastern Ukraine, promising additional sanctions if events continue on their current path. Again on Thursday, Putin denied any Russian military forces are in east Ukraine, but many have noted how the situation in eastern Ukraine is starting to play out exactly as it did in Crimea.

In March, Putin's repeated denials of troop deployments in Crimea dumbfounded U.S. officials. When told at a press conference Putin had again denied the charges, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry couldn't believe it, asking, "He really denied there were troops in Crimea?"

In a press conference earlier that day in Russia, Putin was asked by reporters about the mysterious appearance of men in green uniforms in Crimea. He called them local self-defense units.

"There are many military uniforms. Go into any local shop and you can find one," he said.

He also said then that Russia had no plans to annex Crimea — which happened less than a month later.




Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-admits-troops-crimea-2014-4#ixzz2zA7CwPiq

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #245 on: April 17, 2014, 11:01:16 AM »
Behold the 'hero' of the masses...

Snowden Makes Stunning Appearance On Putin TV Interview In Apparent PR Stunt


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/w1yH554emkY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/w1yH554emkY</a>

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #246 on: April 17, 2014, 03:00:23 PM »
You're the kicksy one because I can easily find the articles that show that the "heroes" of Kiev became horribly violent. You accuse me of regurgitating Russian propaganda - except the news sites I read such as the BBC and the Guardian are most certainly not mouth-pieces of Russian propaganda and clearly depict the violence of the "protesters" in Kiev. And I guess the authorities in New York, when they were beating protesters left and right during the Occupy Wall Street protests were what? What would you say about them?

Post yuh articles about the "heroes" of Kiev becoming violent... just make sure yuh post the entire chronology that shows that the violence started when police started cracking down, beating and kidnapping... AND shooting protesters.  That's the third time I mentioning it.  Nobody is denying the protests turned violent... yuh need to read better.  The issue is that only after the police under the former regime attacked peaceful protesters, that the protesters started fighting back.  And all along is the same Guardian and BBC articles I posting.  I not even posting American sources... that last NPR article notwithstanding.  You CANNOT post one credible source from either the Guardian or BBC that says it was Americans agitating behind the protests, or that the protests was the work of neo-Nazis. 

Quote
And because there are armed persons in the Eastern Ukraine protests, does not mean they have or are engaged in violence - that's not a difficult distinction to make.

The protests in the Eastern Ukraine are significantly milder than those in Kiev yet the rhetoric against them is starkly different. HYPOCRITES. They bit off more than they can chew when they decided to agitate Ukraine and effect regime change. Now they're trying to make it seem as though the leaders in Kiev are legitimate. What a farce. The population of Eastern Ukraine have just as much a right to protest against those who seized power. You talk of violence? Why were those two 'pro-Russian' candidates for presidency beaten and one is actually in critical condition in the hospital? Please eh.

What about when the head of the media corporation who was beaten by members of parliament - those far right extremists who the EU in previous years have issued several cautionary declarations against - after they beat him on camera and forced him to resign because his station broadcast Russia's absorption of Crimea. And the most ironic part is that he was beaten up by the minister in charge of Media FREEDOM! Where was the condemnation by the White House and the EU? That's the sort of 'government' the West are propping up. Yet they want to talk about "democracy" and "freedom".

You are being ridiculous... it really don't make sense for me to go on arguing with you.  Everybody acknowledges that there are Neo-Nazis mixed in among the protestors.  You choose to harp on one or two isolated incidents where the pro-Ukraine supporters have been violent, while glibly overlooking the fact that for the most part, most of the violence has been perpetrated by those sympathetic to Russia.  You have your biased view and that is that.

Neo-Nazis not just 'mixed in' with the protesters, but now in several high-ranking government posts. And lol@"one or two isolated incidents" of violence...now who is glibly overlooking facts?
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #247 on: April 17, 2014, 07:49:50 PM »
Have a listen to the BBC's From Our Own Correspondent dated April 12, 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01x5drn
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws</a>

Think of the 2022 conversation regarding reparations as the item tabled for future discussion when initially raised for negotiation during talks in 1834. A lot of intere$t has accrued.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #248 on: April 17, 2014, 07:51:34 PM »
You're the kicksy one because I can easily find the articles that show that the "heroes" of Kiev became horribly violent. You accuse me of regurgitating Russian propaganda - except the news sites I read such as the BBC and the Guardian are most certainly not mouth-pieces of Russian propaganda and clearly depict the violence of the "protesters" in Kiev. And I guess the authorities in New York, when they were beating protesters left and right during the Occupy Wall Street protests were what? What would you say about them?

Post yuh articles about the "heroes" of Kiev becoming violent... just make sure yuh post the entire chronology that shows that the violence started when police started cracking down, beating and kidnapping... AND shooting protesters.  That's the third time I mentioning it.  Nobody is denying the protests turned violent... yuh need to read better.  The issue is that only after the police under the former regime attacked peaceful protesters, that the protesters started fighting back.  And all along is the same Guardian and BBC articles I posting.  I not even posting American sources... that last NPR article notwithstanding.  You CANNOT post one credible source from either the Guardian or BBC that says it was Americans agitating behind the protests, or that the protests was the work of neo-Nazis. 

Quote
And because there are armed persons in the Eastern Ukraine protests, does not mean they have or are engaged in violence - that's not a difficult distinction to make.

The protests in the Eastern Ukraine are significantly milder than those in Kiev yet the rhetoric against them is starkly different. HYPOCRITES. They bit off more than they can chew when they decided to agitate Ukraine and effect regime change. Now they're trying to make it seem as though the leaders in Kiev are legitimate. What a farce. The population of Eastern Ukraine have just as much a right to protest against those who seized power. You talk of violence? Why were those two 'pro-Russian' candidates for presidency beaten and one is actually in critical condition in the hospital? Please eh.

What about when the head of the media corporation who was beaten by members of parliament - those far right extremists who the EU in previous years have issued several cautionary declarations against - after they beat him on camera and forced him to resign because his station broadcast Russia's absorption of Crimea. And the most ironic part is that he was beaten up by the minister in charge of Media FREEDOM! Where was the condemnation by the White House and the EU? That's the sort of 'government' the West are propping up. Yet they want to talk about "democracy" and "freedom".

You are being ridiculous... it really don't make sense for me to go on arguing with you.  Everybody acknowledges that there are Neo-Nazis mixed in among the protestors.  You choose to harp on one or two isolated incidents where the pro-Ukraine supporters have been violent, while glibly overlooking the fact that for the most part, most of the violence has been perpetrated by those sympathetic to Russia.  You have your biased view and that is that.

Neo-Nazis not just 'mixed in' with the protesters, but now in several high-ranking government posts. And lol@"one or two isolated incidents" of violence...now who is glibly overlooking facts?
  Toppa , you wastin your time  , even if facts bit dat Bakes fella on the ass , he wouldn't feel it  because he is ideologically  driven and facts matter none

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #249 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:23 PM »
Subject , object , verb , tence , . mere deflection .. you pretend dat you know everything but  in reality you know dick all .
 It was you who  engaged   me from my first posting  here to show how smart you is and how stupid I is .
 I dont need to engage wid you   because you dont impress me , now  piss  off  .

You are an irrepressible c**t of the highest magnitude, you know very little about what you're putting your mouth in, but kill you dead is everybody else who schupid.  Tun tun... under the 2004 amendment to the constitution more power vested in the Parliament than in the President.  Yanukovych pack the Supreme Court and get them to overturn the Amendments... an occurrence which itself was clearly illegal.  All of this is what led to the idiot losing the support of the people and of Parliament.  The Ukrainian Presidency is impotent without the support of Parliament... Yanukovych knew this... even if your dumb ass can't appreciate that fact.  Calling it a coup d'etat doesn't make it so.  This is the last I will be responding to you and yuh bullshit conspiratorial rantings.
Your facts wrong again as usual . . He was driven out of power by the orange revolution paid for by the  US state department and in spite of this Yakunovych  was re elected again only to be driven out   from power by the Euromaidan neo zazis  coup and once  more paid for  by  the US state dept.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #250 on: April 18, 2014, 12:51:11 PM »
Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax
City's chief rabbi states pamphlet is fake, claiming it is meant to discredit pro-Russian protesters or Jewish community

The barricades that mark the entrance to the "Donetsk People's Republic" are plastered with anti-fascist posters, including an American flag with a swastika in place of the stars. The pro-Russian protestors who have set up their own government in the occupied administration building see the new Kiev regime as dominated by intolerant Ukrainian nationalists, which is why it was more than a little ironic when an antisemitic flyer appeared on Wednesday ordering Jews to register with these new authorities.

US secretary of state John Kerry soon waded into the media storm over the piece of paper, describing it as "grotesque" and "beyond unacceptable". But on Friday the chairman of the Donetsk People's Republic and the city's chief rabbi both stated that the flyer was a fake meant to discredit the so-called republic or the Jewish community.

The hoax has nonetheless contributed to the tense, divisive atmosphere in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian protests have ended in violence in recent weeks. A vicious information war has raged around the military operation Kiev is staging to try to take back buildings from pro-Russian demonstrators and militia, with Ukrainian media vilifying the protestors as "terrorists" and Russian media regularly calling the Kiev government a "fascist junta".

"I think it's someone trying to use the Jewish community in Donetsk as an instrument in this conflict. That's why we're upset," the chief rabbi, Pinchas Vishedski, told journalists on Friday.

According to Jewish community members at Donetsk's only synagogue, which was founded 110 years ago, three masked men walked up to worshippers standing on the street after a Passover service on Wednesday and tried to distribute the flyers. They wore no insignia and quickly left when asked to identify themselves.

The flyer asks all Jewish citizens aged 16 and older to register with the "Donetsk Republic commissar for nationality affairs" and pay a $50 fee, "given that the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine support the Banderite junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens."

"Those who refuse to register will be deprived of citizenship and forcibly expelled from the republic and their property will be confiscated," it read.

The order was allegedly issued by "people's governor" Denis Pushilin, who denied the Donetsk People's Republic had anything to do with the flyer at a press conference on Friday.

Prominent Jews in Ukraine have previously come out in support of the Euromaidan protests in Kiev that ousted president Viktor Yanukovich, although official Jewish leaders have stopped short of endorsing the Euromaidan movement. One of the three main leaders of the movement, Oleh Tyahnybok, head of the nationalist party Svoboda, infamously once said that a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" was ruling Ukraine.

When seen by the Guardian on Friday, several aspects of the document immediately called into question its legitimacy. Pushilin is officially the chairman of the temporary government and has avoided being labelled its governor or leader. Also, the Donetsk People's Republic stamp shown there is poor quality and a different size than normally used, and the order is not signed.

Nonetheless, it initially provoked a strong reaction among the local Jewish community, which numbers about 15,000 people, according to Vishedski.

"We were alarmed but now things have calmed down," said worshipper Ari Schwartz.

"For people of the older generation, seeing this paper immediately brought up associations with what happened in Nazi Germany. It worried them," said an assistant rabbi, Ieguda Kelerman.

Although Jews sometimes encounter "everyday antisemitism" in Donetsk, he added, the government has never adopted any discriminatory policies towards them. He said Jews in Donetsk include both supporters and opponents of the new Kiev government.

Vishedski said he reported the incident to law enforcement authorities and asked them for additional protection of the synagogue and Jewish school, and he plans to raise the issue with the Russian Orthodox leader, Patriarch Filaret.

"The rise of nationalism in this country is of course not comfortable for us," Vishedski said.

But he declined to comment on the new Kiev government or the pro-Russian building takeovers in Donetsk and nearby regions.

"Some Jewish citizens participated in Maidan, they have a right to do this because they are citizens and this is a democracy," he said, but maintained the community is not involved in politics.

Alexander Sheremyet, a protestor occupying the administration building, said the hoax was likely to have been staged by someone associated with the Kiev government to discredit the Donetsk People's Republic.

"I don't think it's someone who wants to make money. It's probably part of the information war," he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples-republic-ukraine-hoax
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #251 on: April 21, 2014, 11:25:24 AM »
I would not at all be surprised if this wasn't Russia up to mischief again with this anti-semitism. After denying that Russian special forces were behind the "pro-Russia" protests in Crimea, it has now come out that they were... Putin himself admitted as much.  For the past couple weeks they've also been denying any Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine... and the deceit is slowly being uncovered there as well.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #252 on: April 21, 2014, 12:43:16 PM »
Ukraine crisis: US warns of dangerous precedent for other territorial disputes
US officials asked Asian countries not to seek to take commercial advantage of sanctions against Russia on eve of Obama Asia trip

The White House has warned of the danger of worsening tension in Ukraine setting precedents for other territorial disputes around the world as it reacted for the first time to fresh clashes over the weekend with pro-Russian forces.

Speaking on the eve of a trip to Japan and Korea by Barack Obama that is likely to be overshadowed by the ongoing crisis, US officials said it was imperative that Asian countries did not seek to take commercial advantage of sanctions against Russia.

“International order is at stake,” said Ben Rhodes, deputy national security adviser. “Our policy on Ukraine is not targeted at Russia specifically, it is targeted at upholding the international order that we believe has been violated.”

The administration believes widespread international condemnation of Russia at the United Nations, including abstention by China on a critical vote, has been driven partly by anxiety in Asia about the repercussions for other flashpoints such as the South China Sea and Korean peninsula.

“One of the reasons you saw that vote in the UN was that Asian nations don't like precedent being set that a sovereign nation's territorial integrity can be violated with impunity,” added Rhodes.

But the White House was cautious on Monday in its first reaction to fresh clashes between Ukrainian security personnel and pro-Russian forces at the weekend which resulted in several deaths.

“We are looking into it,” said Rhodes. “We have been very clear that we do not support any types of violence and we want to see de-escalation.”

Officials in Washington are anxious to hold onto a diplomatic agreement made last week in Geneva and said the incident was a sign of why it should be implemented rather than indication it was already breaking down.

“The road map laid out in Geneva requires pro-Russian forces to lay down their arms and vacate those buildings. As long as they are there, the risk of this type of confrontation is acute,” added Rhodes.

“We have seen the Ukrainian government begin to follow through on their commitments and this is where we have a difference with [Russian] foreign minister Lavrov.”

Officials travelling with vice-president Biden on his way to Kiev described the situation in eastern Ukraine as “still very murky” despite claims by the Ukrainian government that it was a provocation by pro-Russian forces.

A senior administration official said the US doesn't have any evidence that there was any Ukrainian security service involvement or involvement from people coming from Kiev.

"We have nothing that suggests that there was either but we don't have 100% of the facts on that," he told pool reporters travelling with Biden.

But the US official acknowledged it has not seen the kind of progress required under the Geneva agreement "and we've seen certain activities that have been discouraging."

The US will impose "costs" on Russia in coming days if that doesn't change, he added. "This is not going to be an open-ended process. This is going to be a situation where we take stock and determine in the relatively near term what our next step should be."
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Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #253 on: April 21, 2014, 07:08:01 PM »
 Obama  and Biden can huff and puff all they want but at the end of the day Russia in in the driver's seat . When military confrontations are involved with Russia ,   the Russians always comes out ahead .
 Right now the Russians are  leading 3 to 0 ... Abkazia, South Osettia and Crimea, soon to be 4 to  0 with the addition of the eastern parts of Ukraine

Offline Deeks

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #254 on: April 21, 2014, 08:20:53 PM »
Off course, they are ahead because these regions are on or with their borders.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #255 on: April 22, 2014, 03:38:21 AM »
For those partly or fully in the Russian camps - does the revelation that Putin used special forces to seize assets in Crimea, and not local pro-Russian protesters, change the context of his actions? It's been ignored by you so far, but it's pertinent since at the start of the topic part of your justification for his actions was a perceived support for Russia on the ground. Not that that is at least partially dispelled, do you still see his actions as justified?

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #256 on: April 22, 2014, 12:24:59 PM »
For those partly or fully in the Russian camps - does the revelation that Putin used special forces to seize assets in Crimea, and not local pro-Russian protesters, change the context of his actions? It's been ignored by you so far, but it's pertinent since at the start of the topic part of your justification for his actions was a perceived support for Russia on the ground. Not that that is at least partially dispelled, do you still see his actions as justified?

So who didn't know that those "little green men" were not the troops from the Russian bases? I guess you missed my tongue in cheek comment about the "local self-defence forces  :D" ? The local support for Russian intervention was overwhelming.

It changes nada. The UK and UK would have done the same. BTW, the UK still fighting Argentina over the Falkland Islands?  ::)
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #257 on: April 22, 2014, 03:08:06 PM »
For those partly or fully in the Russian camps - does the revelation that Putin used special forces to seize assets in Crimea, and not local pro-Russian protesters, change the context of his actions? It's been ignored by you so far, but it's pertinent since at the start of the topic part of your justification for his actions was a perceived support for Russia on the ground. Not that that is at least partially dispelled, do you still see his actions as justified?

So who didn't know that those "little green men" were not the troops from the Russian bases? I guess you missed my tongue in cheek comment about the "local self-defence forces  :D" ? The local support for Russian intervention was overwhelming.

It changes nada. The UK and UK would have done the same. BTW, the UK still fighting Argentina over the Falkland Islands?  ::)
Falkland Islands are nothing like this - The population has been ethnically British for two centuries, not half of one. Moreover, when offered a referendum, the residents overwhelmingly voted to stay part of Britain.

So you don't care that Putin is sending in special forces to overthrow the local governments?

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #258 on: April 22, 2014, 03:55:16 PM »
Crimea was part of russia since 1783. I believe that's longer than the Falklands have been part of Britain. And when offered a referendum, they also overwhelmingly voted to rejoin Russia.

Also, that bloke declared himself the prime minister after the fall of Kiev's elected government and then appealed for Russia's help.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:58:50 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #259 on: April 22, 2014, 04:45:32 PM »
Crimea was part of russia since 1783. I believe that's longer than the Falklands have been part of Britain. And when offered a referendum, they also overwhelmingly voted to rejoin Russia.

Also, that bloke declared himself the prime minister after the fall of Kiev's elected government and then appealed for Russia's help.

Yeah he "declared himself" Prime Minister... same way the "pro-Russia protesters" were guarding the Ukrainian military bases.  I ketching real kicks watching yuh contort yuhself.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #260 on: April 22, 2014, 05:01:27 PM »
Crimea was part of russia since 1783. I believe that's longer than the Falklands have been part of Britain. And when offered a referendum, they also overwhelmingly voted to rejoin Russia.

Also, that bloke declared himself the prime minister after the fall of Kiev's elected government and then appealed for Russia's help.

Yeah he "declared himself" Prime Minister... same way the "pro-Russia protesters" were guarding the Ukrainian military bases.  I ketching real kicks watching yuh contort yuhself.

But he did declare himself prime minister. As legitimately/illegitimately as those in Kiev. I don't see how I'm "contorting" myself. I guess my mild amusement at the irony of this entire "crisis" is too subtle.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #261 on: April 22, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »
But he did declare himself prime minister. As legitimately/illegitimately as those in Kiev. I don't see how I'm "contorting" myself. I guess my mild amusement at the irony of this entire "crisis" is too subtle.

I'm not denying that he didn't declare himself PM... I'm saying I'm sure the hands of the Kremlin was behind that move as well, they wouldn't allow just "anybody" to declare themselves PM.  You're contorting yourself by trying hard to compare this to the Falklands.  The two situations aren't even remotely similar.  The Falklands were not part of Argentina 30 years ago, they were British.  Crimea might have had historical ties to Russia, but it was part of the Ukraine.  Russia invaded Ukraine under fals pretenses to "protect" pro-Russian civilians from a non-existent threat.  The Falklands were British for almost 150 years before Argentina (much like Russia) invaded British territory to reclaim some historical claim.  Britain wasn't the invaders... Argentina were, so you can't say "Britain still fighting Argentina over the Falklands" and try to compare it to Crimea.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #262 on: April 22, 2014, 08:04:10 PM »
Crimea was part of russia since 1783. I believe that's longer than the Falklands have been part of Britain. And when offered a referendum, they also overwhelmingly voted to rejoin Russia.

Also, that bloke declared himself the prime minister after the fall of Kiev's elected government and then appealed for Russia's help.
  You got  it half right  . The whole object in   gettin rid of Yakovanich by the Americans  was to deny tht  Russians a warm water port for their Black sea fleet ..
 If you noticed ,  the first thing that the fascist did was to outlaw Russian as a second language ,
 The second thing that was in the works was to abrogate the agreements that would have allowed the Russians to lease the Crimean ports  for the next 20 years .
 Putin  brilliant strategist that he is ,saw through all of dis and struck with lightning speed and the rest is history .
 Crimea is was and always will be Russian and Khrushchev probably in  one  his drunken sprees with a stroke of the pen in 54 transferred Crimea to Ukraine without consulting the  Crimeans
Obama has morphed into a neocon cold warrior and it is no wonder that the likes of Victoria Nuland is in charge if American foreign policy
 
 


 
 

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #263 on: April 22, 2014, 08:07:06 PM »
But he did declare himself prime minister. As legitimately/illegitimately as those in Kiev. I don't see how I'm "contorting" myself. I guess my mild amusement at the irony of this entire "crisis" is too subtle.

I'm not denying that he didn't declare himself PM... I'm saying I'm sure the hands of the Kremlin was behind that move as well, they wouldn't allow just "anybody" to declare themselves PM.  You're contorting yourself by trying hard to compare this to the Falklands.  The two situations aren't even remotely similar.  The Falklands were not part of Argentina 30 years ago, they were British.  Crimea might have had historical ties to Russia, but it was part of the Ukraine.  Russia invaded Ukraine under fals pretenses to "protect" pro-Russian civilians from a non-existent threat.  The Falklands were British for almost 150 years before Argentina (much like Russia) invaded British territory to reclaim some historical claim.  Britain wasn't the invaders... Argentina were, so you can't say "Britain still fighting Argentina over the Falklands" and try to compare it to Crimea.

Steups please eh. A throw-away comment about the Falklands to provoke Tiresais is me "trying hard to compare Crimea to the Falklands"? Come again.

And just FYI, it wasn't just 'historical ties' - they were part of the Russian Federation for over 200 years.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #264 on: April 22, 2014, 08:25:48 PM »
More "clear evidence" that Russia is behind the actions of these Eastern Ukrainian TERRORIST separatists.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27107893

Ukraine crisis: Inside Luhansk protest camp

22 April 2014 Last updated at 08:18 BST

The BBC's Natalia Antelava visits a protest camp in Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.

Protesters there say they do not trust Kiev, but at the same time feel let down by a lack of support from Russia.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #265 on: April 22, 2014, 08:41:22 PM »
Steups please eh. A throw-away comment about the Falklands to provoke Tiresais is me "trying hard to compare Crimea to the Falklands"? Come again.

And just FYI, it wasn't just 'historical ties' - they were part of the Russian Federation for over 200 years.

I find your disingenuity not only stunning, but also out of character.  You made one "throw away" comment about the Falklands, Tireasis responded the two were nothing alike and you came back with some talk of Crimea being part of the Russian Federation since 1783.  That is not throw away, that is you trying to substantiate your flawed argument... aka trying to be wrong and strong.  Crimea has historic ties to Russia... the 60-year separation makes it "historical" as opposed to current/recent.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #266 on: April 22, 2014, 08:59:56 PM »
Steups please eh. A throw-away comment about the Falklands to provoke Tiresais is me "trying hard to compare Crimea to the Falklands"? Come again.

And just FYI, it wasn't just 'historical ties' - they were part of the Russian Federation for over 200 years.

I find your disingenuity not only stunning, but also out of character.  You made one "throw away" comment about the Falklands, Tireasis responded the two were nothing alike and you came back with some talk of Crimea being part of the Russian Federation since 1783.  That is not throw away, that is you trying to substantiate your flawed argument... aka trying to be wrong and strong.  Crimea has historic ties to Russia... the 60-year separation makes it "historical" as opposed to current/recent.

I guess I should be very specific as to what exactly I'm responding to. My initial remark to Tiresais about the Falklands was a throw-away comment simply to provoke him. In response he said that they were nothing alike and the Falklands have been British for over two centuries. Then I replied that Crimea had been part of Russia since 1783...meaning that it was part of Russia for just as long as the Falklands were part of Britain and that is where that discussion ended. Why would I seriously pursue an argument that the Falklands situation was comparable to Crimea?

Anyway, to clear the air  - this is how I see things: I believe the overthrow of Ukraine's president was engineered by the US - the Victoria Nuland tape where she discusses who should be in the new government like "Yats" and the fact that they've spent 5billion in Ukraine supporting "pro-democracy" movements. We all know that's US slang for regime change. I also believe that Russia acted out of strategic interests in securing Crimea for the Russian Federation. And I am thoroughly enjoying the US's tantrum now that things have not panned out exactly as they had hoped. The same things they are protesting against that's happening in the East of Ukraine, are the very things they were supportive of when it was/is being done in the West of Ukraine...
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #267 on: April 23, 2014, 03:25:12 AM »
Crimea was ethnically Crimean Tatar until forcibly moved by Stalin in 1945, then forcibly "colonised" by ethnic Russians. In comparison, the Falkland Islands went through periods of non-habitation (having of course no permanent habitation before Colonial arrival), with it changing hands as colonial possessions tended to do, until Britain seized it in the early 1800s (on some claim it had... Again colonial rubbish...). Whether residents were expelled at this point is contented by Argentina, but both British and Argentine sources suggest they were encouraged to stay.

If you are not arguing this then why bring it up? Admit there's no comparison and move on.

Ramgoat - Crimea has not always been Russian, as noted above. The majority ethnicity was Crimean Tatar for a thousand years before Stalin forcibly removed them. It's as if 50 years ago all Black Trinidadians were removed from the island and Venezuelans were installed there. Then, Venezuela started promoting unrest on the island and annexed it to "protect ethnic Venezuelans". The comparisons with Hitler's move in the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia are entirely justified, especially given his admission of using special forces.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #268 on: April 23, 2014, 08:39:43 AM »
Why you doh learn to read like yuh always telling everybody else? Nobody said anything about any "ethnic" makeup. What isaid wss that it was part of Russia.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #269 on: April 23, 2014, 09:55:45 AM »
Why you doh learn to read like yuh always telling everybody else? Nobody said anything about any "ethnic" makeup. What isaid wss that it was part of Russia.

Well Trinidad was part of Great Britain for 150 years, does that mean we get to invade and conquer you? Your standards seem arbitrary to me - when do they lose the right? How long makes it valid