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Author Topic: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin  (Read 56322 times)

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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2014, 01:05:54 AM »
Actually the Neo-Nazi component to the protests and newly formed government is well documented. The bbc has a series of articles as well as other news outlets.

We're not talking participation, we're talking leadership roles... in fact the accusation presently being debated is that the US funded the revolution by having these neo-Nazis stir up trouble.  Calling such a charge nonsense would be charitable.

Quote
Olexiy Haran, a politics professor and a member of the Maidan's organising committee, expressed exasperation at the way the Kremlin's "fascist" trope had taken root in some western minds. "I've had liberal Harvard professors asking me about this. We are talking traditional Russian propaganda," he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement



 Not just the protests (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25571805) but now in government. "The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party has four posts in the government. Oleksandr Sych is deputy prime minister and Oleh Makhnitsky becomes acting chief prosecutor. It also runs the agriculture and ecology portfolios but its leader, who has been accused of anti-Semitism, is not in the government. Protest leader Andriy Parubiy has become chairman of the National Security Council (NSC). A co-founder of Svoboda and labelled an extremist by the ousted president, one of Mr Parubiy's deputies at the NSC is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of far-right paramilitary group Right Sector."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2014, 12:46:09 PM »
Not just the protests (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25571805) but now in government. "The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party has four posts in the government. Oleksandr Sych is deputy prime minister and Oleh Makhnitsky becomes acting chief prosecutor. It also runs the agriculture and ecology portfolios but its leader, who has been accused of anti-Semitism, is not in the government. Protest leader Andriy Parubiy has become chairman of the National Security Council (NSC). A co-founder of Svoboda and labelled an extremist by the ousted president, one of Mr Parubiy's deputies at the NSC is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of far-right paramilitary group Right Sector."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

All of that is covered in the Guardian article I posted.  Again the issue isn't about Svoboda being in Government, it's about who were the impetus of the uprising- specifically whether it was a neo-Nazi led rebellion, and whether the West was behind it.  There is no substantiation for either claim.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2014, 12:54:07 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2014, 04:25:32 PM »
Not just the protests (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25571805) but now in government. "The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party has four posts in the government. Oleksandr Sych is deputy prime minister and Oleh Makhnitsky becomes acting chief prosecutor. It also runs the agriculture and ecology portfolios but its leader, who has been accused of anti-Semitism, is not in the government. Protest leader Andriy Parubiy has become chairman of the National Security Council (NSC). A co-founder of Svoboda and labelled an extremist by the ousted president, one of Mr Parubiy's deputies at the NSC is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of far-right paramilitary group Right Sector."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

All of that is covered in the Guardian article I posted.  Again the issue isn't about Svoboda being in Government, it's about who were the impetus of the uprising- specifically whether it was a neo-Nazi led rebellion, and whether the West was behind it.  There is no substantiation for either claim.

Well I was responding to Fishs who was asking about whether there really were Neo-Nazis involved and I think it's a stretch to say there is 'no substantiation' to the claim that the West  was involved in the coup.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2014, 05:25:48 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?

Read the statement again.

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2014, 05:28:55 PM »
Well I was responding to Fishs who was asking about whether there really were Neo-Nazis involved and I think it's a stretch to say there is 'no substantiation' to the claim that the West  was involved in the coup.

Where you get confirmation that it is " Neo Nazis" that headed this revolution or coup?
So far to me is only Moscow calling them that. The same Moscow that called Pussy Riot terrorists.

Yuh allyuh like nonsense yes

Now... you were saying?

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2014, 05:36:15 PM »
Well I was responding to Fishs who was asking about whether there really were Neo-Nazis involved and I think it's a stretch to say there is 'no substantiation' to the claim that the West  was involved in the coup.

Where you get confirmation that it is " Neo Nazis" that headed this revolution or coup?
So far to me is only Moscow calling them that. The same Moscow that called Pussy Riot terrorists.

Yuh allyuh like nonsense yes

Now... you were saying?

Ok, he said 'headed' - well no, haven't seen anything that says Neo-Nazis "headed" the coup but they were certainly involved and are currently part of the government.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2014, 05:48:35 PM »
Look like Russia decide to take in front before in front take them.

Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis
Transfer of more than $100bn out of US prompts speculation Russia is moving funds out of reach of possible sanctions


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions#start-of-comments
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2014, 05:50:55 PM »
Ok, he said 'headed' - well no, haven't seen anything that says Neo-Nazis "headed" the coup but they were certainly involved and are currently part of the government.

No disputing that... if you go back and follow the chain, he was really rubbishing the claim by Ramgoat that the West (specifically, the US) paid the Neo-Nazis to stir up the rebellion... as opposed to it happening organically and by a multi-ethnic group of pro-democracy protesters.  The evidence points to the Neo-Nazis becoming involved after the Maidan protests were already underway.  102 killed and not one Neo-Nazi in the midst... everyone, including the cops, suffered casualties but them?  When snipers were targeting protesters indiscriminately?  What are the chances?  Say nothing of the fact that it was first organized on FB by a Pakistani immigrant.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2014, 11:13:06 PM »
Look like Russia decide to take in front before in front take them.

Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis
Transfer of more than $100bn out of US prompts speculation Russia is moving funds out of reach of possible sanctions


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions#start-of-comments
When the west and specifically the USA decides to impose sanctions and individuals or a country  , they do  not telegraph  it   as in the case with Iran , They just do it
 This is a facade or a shell game to give the Russians enough time to move assets  so that it cannot be touched .
 This is just for show  for  the gullible people in the west ,   to pretend as if they are doing something to stop Russian aggression in Crimea ,
 The west  has basically conceded the Crimea to Russia and the negotiations are really about   how to stop the Russians from moving into The east and southern Ukraine to protect Ethnic Russians.
 T he Russians has leverage to hit back at   Europe  because  they are an energy  superpower .
 Right now if I am not  mistaken , Coca Cola  and GM 's second largest market is in Russia plus Boeing is also heavily invested in Russia . I can imagine the the lobbyists for these companies are  working overtime with  the Obama administration to proceed with caution . I forgot about the major oil companies    .
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:40:20 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2014, 11:37:41 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

Offline fishs

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2014, 11:50:41 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

 Wow as far as you guys are concerned people need to be pushed by the US and its allies to seek change. These people are nothing but puppets ent.
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2014, 02:25:39 AM »


Football diplomacy.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2014, 09:04:13 AM »
Look like Russia decide to take in front before in front take them.

Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis
Transfer of more than $100bn out of US prompts speculation Russia is moving funds out of reach of possible sanctions


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions#start-of-comments

I think there is a bigger message here. A debtor is a slave and Putin might be sending a message that "if you push me, I have the ability to call my loan and affect the already fragile US market." People forget that Putin is a keen student of Judo and martial arts and his actions speak volumes to such.

The headline says it all.......Markets - FEAR - Russia.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 09:10:06 AM by Conquering Lion »
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »
Look like Russia decide to take in front before in front take them.

Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis
Transfer of more than $100bn out of US prompts speculation Russia is moving funds out of reach of possible sanctions


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions#start-of-comments

I think there is a bigger message here. A debtor is a slave and Putin might be sending a message that "if you push me, I have the ability to call my loan and affect the already fragile US market." People forget that Putin is a keen student of Judo and martial arts and his actions speak volumes to such.

The headline says it all.......Markets - FEAR - Russia.

This is a dangerous two-edged sword - Russia have already cut themselves. The Russian stock market is still declining (lessoning the net-worth of some of Putin's rich allies to say the least), the Rouble is at an all-time low, and investors have been reminded why premiums are higher in Russia (some had forgotten the Georgian lesson of 2008).

This'll hurt Russian FDI to say the least, and will probably have a knock-on effect on the domestic market. This is ignoring the political unrest impacts...

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2014, 09:40:54 AM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

Ignoratio elenchi... the US may or may not have been involved in those incidents you cite, but by themselves they offer nothing by way of proof of the US' involvement in the Euromaidan.  What you conveniently continue to do, and what betrays your intellectual lightweight status, is your refusal to address the overwhelming evidence that genuine discord under Yanukovych was the reason for the protests.  Rather, you make conclusory pronouncements without proof, that the West was behind the uprising.  If I didn't know any better I'd say that Putin himself has his hands up your ass manipulating your lips... you do such a convincing job of parroting Russian propaganda.

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2014, 09:42:53 AM »
The headline says it all.......Markets - FEAR - Russia.

The Markets don't fear Russia... they fear the collateral effects of the implosion of the Russian economy, a very likely prospect at this point.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2014, 02:27:04 PM »
The headline says it all.......Markets - FEAR - Russia.

The Markets don't fear Russia... they fear the collateral effects of the implosion of the Russian economy, a very likely prospect at this point.

 :yawning:
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2014, 03:00:19 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

Ignoratio elenchi... the US may or may not have been involved in those incidents you cite, but by themselves they offer nothing by way of proof of the US' involvement in the Euromaidan.  What you conveniently continue to do, and what betrays your intellectual lightweight status, is your refusal to address the overwhelming evidence that genuine discord under Yanukovych was the reason for the protests.  Rather, you make conclusory pronouncements without proof, that the West was behind the uprising.  If I didn't know any better I'd say that Putin himself has his hands up your ass manipulating your lips... you do such a convincing job of parroting Russian propaganda.
  NON COMPOS  MENTIS.... when did I state that there was  not   genuine discord under Yanukovych?
There was also genuine discord under Julia Timoshenko but she  lost to  Yanukovych in a democratic election
Yanukovich  was pro  russian and he was elected twice and was brought down twice as well, with violence and huge well orchestrated  demonstrations , first with the  Orange  revolution and then   the latest .
If he had signed the association agreement with the EU he would still have been in power  but instead he went for a better deal with the Russians  for 15billion dollars with no strings attached
 If you cant see the hand of the EU countries and the USA in his downfall , then I am wasting my  time with you
 
     
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:08:43 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2014, 03:36:04 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

Ignoratio elenchi... the US may or may not have been involved in those incidents you cite, but by themselves they offer nothing by way of proof of the US' involvement in the Euromaidan.  What you conveniently continue to do, and what betrays your intellectual lightweight status, is your refusal to address the overwhelming evidence that genuine discord under Yanukovych was the reason for the protests.  Rather, you make conclusory pronouncements without proof, that the West was behind the uprising.  If I didn't know any better I'd say that Putin himself has his hands up your ass manipulating your lips... you do such a convincing job of parroting Russian propaganda.

May or may not have been US involvement in the incidents cited?

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2014, 03:41:51 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

 Wow as far as you guys are concerned people need to be pushed by the US and its allies to seek change. These people are nothing but puppets ent.

It doesn't mean the people are puppets.


Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2014, 03:48:24 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?

Read the statement again.

Got it. (As phrased, it's contextually ambiguous).

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2014, 04:06:00 PM »
COMPOS  MENTIS.... when did I state that there was  not   genuine discord under Yanukovych?
There was also genuine discord under Julia Timoshenko but she  lost to  Yanukovych in a democratic election
Yanukovich  was pro  russian and he was elected twice and was brought down twice as well, with violence and huge well orchestrated  demonstrations , first with the  Orange  revolution and then   the latest .
If he had signed the association agreement with the EU he would still have been in power  but instead he went for a better deal with the Russians  for 15billion dollars with no strings attached
 If you cant see the hand of the EU countries and the USA in his downfall , then I am wasting my  time with you
 
     

Jackass... ah mean, Ramgoat... try and read for comprehension. Maybe that explains your use of a latin phrase which clearly you don't understand or otherwise lack a meaningful appreciation for its deployment.  It is debateable that the US and EU played any meaningful role in deposing Yanukovych, but even if they did, that in no supports your silly ass claim that the EuroMaidan was a Neo-Nazi uprising financed, supported or instigated by the EU and US.  You have yet to offer anything by way of substantiation for that spurious charge.

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2014, 04:07:38 PM »
May or may not have been US involvement in the incidents cited?

I have no interest in debating whether they are or are not, they are immaterial to the question at hand.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2014, 04:14:46 PM »
May or may not have been US involvement in the incidents cited?

I have no interest in debating whether they are or are not, they are immaterial to the question at hand.

... other than precedent-setting.

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2014, 04:24:14 PM »

... other than precedent-setting.

They hardly add to the discussion of whether the US played any part in fomenting the discord in the Ukraine in this instance.  It is a weak attempt to bolster an already weak argument, but feel free to jump aboard that train if yuh so anxious to ride.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2014, 05:15:36 PM »
May or may not have been US involvement in the incidents cited?

I have no interest in debating whether they are or are not, they are immaterial to the question at hand.

The question was raised because the comment implied doubt as to credence regarding US involvement in the respective countries. There is nothing to debate. It's intellectually dishonest to suggest that there is space for debate on the historical record.

The question stood on itself rather than in cementing commonality vis-a-vis the present situation.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 05:21:45 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2014, 05:18:50 PM »

... other than precedent-setting.

They hardly add to the discussion of whether the US played any part in fomenting the discord in the Ukraine in this instance.  It is a weak attempt to bolster an already weak argument, but feel free to jump aboard that train if yuh so anxious to ride.

What is your understanding of the role of US actors and factors in (and/or impacting) Ukraine pre-Yanukovych's departure?

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2014, 05:19:05 PM »
COMPOS  MENTIS.... when did I state that there was  not   genuine discord under Yanukovych?
There was also genuine discord under Julia Timoshenko but she  lost to  Yanukovych in a democratic election
Yanukovich  was pro  russian and he was elected twice and was brought down twice as well, with violence and huge well orchestrated  demonstrations , first with the  Orange  revolution and then   the latest .
If he had signed the association agreement with the EU he would still have been in power  but instead he went for a better deal with the Russians  for 15billion dollars with no strings attached
 If you cant see the hand of the EU countries and the USA in his downfall , then I am wasting my  time with you
 
     

Jackass... ah mean, Ramgoat... try and read for comprehension. Maybe that explains your use of a latin phrase which clearly you don't understand or otherwise lack a meaningful appreciation for its deployment.  It is debateable that the US and EU played any meaningful role in deposing Yanukovych, but even if they did, that in no supports your silly ass claim that the EuroMaidan was a Neo-Nazi uprising financed, supported or instigated by the EU and US.  You have yet to offer anything by way of substantiation for that spurious charge.
    Victoria Nuland admitted that the USA spent 5 billion since 91 to promote democracy and good Governance  in Ukraine .  What democracy , overthrowing elected govt by Nazi thugs ?  Do you expect the EU and the Americans to openly admit that they financed these these criminals ?
 Like another poster stated , don't read the lines read between them  for   the evidence
 If you cannot see this then you are denser than I give you credit for

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2014, 06:40:34 PM »
What sort of substantiation are you seeking regarding Western involvement in destabilising Yanukovych?
Exactly Assylumseeker   , I guess he expects the West to come out openly and say that they orchestrated  the overthrow of a democratically elected govt. He probably believes the the hands of  America was not involved in  the removal of Mossagedh in Iran ,    Allende of Chile or Chavez in  Venezuela the first  time around.

Ignoratio elenchi... the US may or may not have been involved in those incidents you cite, but by themselves they offer nothing by way of proof of the US' involvement in the Euromaidan.  What you conveniently continue to do, and what betrays your intellectual lightweight status, is your refusal to address the overwhelming evidence that genuine discord under Yanukovych was the reason for the protests.  Rather, you make conclusory pronouncements without proof, that the West was behind the uprising.  If I didn't know any better I'd say that Putin himself has his hands up your ass manipulating your lips... you do such a convincing job of parroting Russian propaganda.

May or may not have been US involvement in the incidents cited?
To question the  US  involvement the incidents cited demonstrates to me that the fool BAKES is not just ignorant but also just plain  fcking stupid and by the way the latin phrase .. non compos  mentis means not of sound mind
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:48:09 PM by Ramgoat »

 

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