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Author Topic: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin  (Read 46236 times)

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Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #210 on: April 14, 2014, 05:48:13 PM »
 Vladimir Putin , Is there any thing that this mutha fuka cant do?

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #211 on: April 14, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »
Vladimir Putin , Is there any thing that this mutha f**ka cant do?

Based on the prevailing wisdom being trafficked in these parts ... my guess would be he cyah have sex with Michelle.  :whistling:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws</a>

Think of the 2022 conversation regarding reparations as the item tabled for future discussion when initially raised for negotiation during talks in 1834. A lot of intere$t has accrued.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #212 on: April 15, 2014, 01:09:16 PM »
Free and fair elections, eh?

Quote
Two presidential candidates, one staunchly pro-Russian and the other a member of former president Viktor Yanukovych's Party of Regions, have been attacked in Kiev, the English-language Moscow Times reports:


A pro-Russian candidate for the Ukrainian presidency was beaten on Tuesday morning by a crowd in Kiev and remains in critical condition, the politician's press service said.

Oleh Tsaryov, a former Party of the Region's deputy, was attacked by armed men outside the ICTV television station, where the lawmaker had appeared on a live broadcast, Interfax reported, citing the candidate's assistant.

Tsaryov, who was rescued from the mob by government security forces, said that the incident won't force him to withdraw from Ukraine's presidential election, scheduled for May 25.

Mikhail Dobkin, a Party of the Regions member and a presidential candidate, was also reportedly doused in flour and green liquid before he could get to the same television studio, where he was to take part in televised discussions with Tsaryov and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #213 on: April 15, 2014, 01:13:57 PM »
Updates from The Guardian

Quote
Ukrainian troops fired shots as they deployed to an airfield as part of an "anti-terrorist operation" in eastern Ukraine, wounding at least two.

The general commanding the operation, Vasily Krutov, told angry locals outside the airfield gates that his troops needed to open fire because armed men had opposed them. But locals said the troops had fired on men armed only with clubs. The Guardian saw a man in the crowd with a wound on his side that he said was from a bullet graze.

Krutov was nearly dragged off by furious citizens after he came out to speak to hundreds of locals who had gathered. After he said troops were there conducting an "anti-terrorist" operation, people shouted, "What terrorists?!"
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #214 on: April 15, 2014, 01:17:59 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".

« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 01:22:35 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Socapro

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #215 on: April 15, 2014, 02:01:40 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".


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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #216 on: April 15, 2014, 07:00:48 PM »
AP two months ago "President Barack Obama says the U.S. is outraged by violence in Ukraine and is urging President Viktor Yanukovych (yah-noo-KOH'-vich) to withdraw forces from downtown Kiev immediately."
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #217 on: April 15, 2014, 08:22:05 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".



The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police or taking over buildings and beating up anybody... they also weren't trying to secede or subvert the government.  There are infinite numbers of ways in which the comparison fails... but you need common sense, or in the least, objectivity in order to recognize that.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #218 on: April 15, 2014, 08:37:07 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".



The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police or taking over buildings and beating up anybody... they also weren't trying to secede or subvert the government.  There are infinite numbers of ways in which the comparison fails... but you need common sense, or in the least, objectivity in order to recognize that.

The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police and being violent?!?!?! You can't be serious...
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Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #219 on: April 15, 2014, 08:45:18 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".



The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police or taking over buildings and beating up anybody... they also weren't trying to secede or subvert the government.  There are infinite numbers of ways in which the comparison fails... but you need common sense, or in the least, objectivity in order to recognize that.
I think that your head is up your ass or you are willfully being dumb ,
 The Neo nazis   Euromadian fascists weren't attacking police or subverting the govt  ?  They overthrow a democratically  elected govt for Gods sake through thuggery and violence,   .
 Common sense and objectivity is something that you surely lacks
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:48:04 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #220 on: April 15, 2014, 09:03:51 PM »
The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police and being violent?!?!?! You can't be serious...

Quote
In November last year, anti-government protesters peacefully occupied Independence Square in central Kiev after president Viktor Yanukovych’s government ditched a far-reaching accord with the European Union in favour of stronger ties with Russia. Police attacks on protesters, new anti-protest laws, and the abduction and beating of activists caused the demonstrations to intensify.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/ukraine-crisis-protesters-kiev-euromaidan-independence-square

Take yuh time.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2014, 10:33:51 PM »
Vladimir Putin , Is there any thing that this mutha f**ka cant do?

Based on the prevailing wisdom being trafficked in these parts ... my guess would be he cyah have sex with Michelle.  :whistling:

nah, is jes he go finally bounce up a foe with a bigger rapier than his...apparently
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Offline ribbit

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #222 on: April 15, 2014, 11:15:06 PM »
Oh, and very rich of the US complaining of Russia's involvement, when the Director of the CIA was just in Kiev a couple days ago. lol...

And another funny thing is the way the language has changed. The people in Kiev were "protesters" and "demonstrators" while those in the East are being called "terrorists" and "armed militants".



The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police or taking over buildings and beating up anybody... they also weren't trying to secede or subvert the government.  There are infinite numbers of ways in which the comparison fails... but you need common sense, or in the least, objectivity in order to recognize that.
I think that your head is up your ass or you are willfully being dumb ,
 The Neo nazis   Euromadian fascists weren't attacking police or subverting the govt  ?  They overthrow a democratically  elected govt for Gods sake through thuggery and violence,   .
 Common sense and objectivity is something that you surely lacks

Thaiz just details. If de potus doh call it a coup then it not a coup. And that mean it cyah be a coup backed by the west.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #223 on: April 16, 2014, 05:01:55 AM »
So when is a coup acceptable, out of interest? Are there no situations in which it's acceptable to overthrow a democratically elected politician? What if there are doubts over the fairness of the elections? What if the politician has pilfered literally billions of dollars for themselves? What if he is seen as acting for the interests of a foreign power?

Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #224 on: April 16, 2014, 10:35:53 AM »
Given the sources, I really shouldn't be surprised that is Ribbit and Ramgoat who are leading the chorus on this "coup" talk.  I surprise either of them could find the time to stop swinging from each other's nuts long enough to log on and post.  The fact of the matter is that Yanukovych's government had a very tenuous hold on power and he relied on the support of the opposition to maintain power.  Following the protests he lost the support of 75% of Parliament, who voted for his removal from office, then his own party disavowed him.  He subsequently fled the country.  No one "overthrow" him, Parliament withdrew its support of him and he was unable to stay in power.  It's as simple as that.  Anyone calling that a "coup" has nary a clue what they're talking about... but again, considering the sources, that's actually being redundant.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #225 on: April 16, 2014, 11:55:11 AM »
The people at the Euromaidan weren't attacking police and being violent?!?!?! You can't be serious...

Quote
In November last year, anti-government protesters peacefully occupied Independence Square in central Kiev after president Viktor Yanukovych’s government ditched a far-reaching accord with the European Union in favour of stronger ties with Russia. Police attacks on protesters, new anti-protest laws, and the abduction and beating of activists caused the demonstrations to intensify.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/ukraine-crisis-protesters-kiev-euromaidan-independence-square

Take yuh time.

Right. Except the demonstrations became increasingly radicalised and violent with the incorporation of nationalist and far right groups. They were also taking over administrative buildings and police stations. In contrast, the protests in the East have yet to become violent but the Kiev regime saw it fit to deploy the armed forces. However, these armed forces have thus far shown a measure of reluctance to engage the local population, saying they would not fire on their own people and in some instances even defecting.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:58:57 AM by Toppa »
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #226 on: April 16, 2014, 11:59:55 AM »
The Guardian's Alec Luhn (@ASLuhn), in Slavyansk, describes the departure of Ukrainian troops by bus, after their capture by pro-Russian forces. "After spending several hours in Slavyansk city hall, which has been occupied by pro-Russian militia, at about 40 to 50 Ukrainian paratroopers marched out of the building and loaded up into two buses," Alec writes:


They said they were heading to the neighbouring region of Dnipropetrovsk, which is where their 25th regiment is based. Their six armoured personnel carriers stayed behind.

The troops carried rucksacks and many of them kept their weapons, but they looked defeated.

“What were we supposed to do? Shoot peaceful protestors?” one soldier told the Guardian when asked why they had chosen to leave.

He said the soldiers were properly equipped and supplied, denying that they were going hungry.

Some of the Ukrainian troops stayed to join the pro-Russian militia, the soldier said. This was confirmed by a rebel commander, who declined to say how many had stayed. However, Russian state news agency RIA Novosti reported earlier on Wednesday that 60 Ukrainian troops had gone over to the side of the militia with their armour.

The Ukrainian troops and armour had arrived in the nearby city of Kramatorsk on Wednesday morning, where pro-Russian militia met them. No shots were fired, and the column soon drove to Slavyansk with militia sitting on top, flying a Russian flag and the paratrooper flag.

Also on Wednesday, another column of Ukrainian armour was stopped in its tracks in a village outside Kramatorsk by a crowd of locals who bought the men bread and sausages.

Episodes of Ukrainian troops being stopped in their tracks by locals have played out several times in recent days.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/ukraine-on-the-brink-live-blog-16-april
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #227 on: April 16, 2014, 12:01:53 PM »
So when is a coup acceptable, out of interest? Are there no situations in which it's acceptable to overthrow a democratically elected politician? What if there are doubts over the fairness of the elections? What if the politician has pilfered literally billions of dollars for themselves? What if he is seen as acting for the interests of a foreign power?

Dude, shut up - seriously. Then every government in existence today could/should be overthrown. Including the UK and the US.

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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #228 on: April 16, 2014, 12:03:33 PM »
Quote
Channel 4 News's Lindsey Hilsum was in Kramatorsk as Ukrainian troops went in.


The Ukrainian government may want to force the separatist armed men out of buildings they have occupied in towns across eastern Ukraine, but their soldiers are very reluctant. “I don’t want to shoot anyone,” one said to me. “Actually I was against this mission.”

From The Guardian.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #229 on: April 16, 2014, 12:14:57 PM »
Quote
It looks like the Ukranian attempt to reassert control in Slavyansk has gone awry, with some troops going over to the pro-Russian side. This from Reuters.


At least three armoured personal carriers that were driven in to the eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk had been under the control of Ukrainian armed forces earlier on Wednesday, Reuters photographers said.

A soldier manning one of the troop carriers now under the control of pro-Russian separatists identified himself to Reuters as being a member of Ukraine's 25th paratrooper division from Dnipropetrovsk.

He said: "All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people."

Updated at 11.43am BST
 
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #230 on: April 16, 2014, 12:48:07 PM »
Quote
The Telegraph's Roland Oliphant has a video dispatch from the scene of the Pchyolkino standoff. Unarmed locals stopped the Ukrainian military convoy. The troops, unwilling either to fire their weapons or give them up, sit stolidly. (Some have dismantled their rifles, however.) Ukrainian jets and helicopters fly overhead in a fruitless attempt to intimidate the locals.

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Roland Oliphant  @RolandOliphant 
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I think I just witnessed my first military debacle today.


10:39 AM - 16 Apr 2014

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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #231 on: April 16, 2014, 12:49:57 PM »
Quote
The Russian foreign ministry has posted a sharp statement on its web site warning Washington of the "catastrophic consequences" for its "reckless support" of Kiev. Translated by Alan Yuhas (@AlahYuhas):


It's important to note that the US State Department is frantically gathering any speculation spread by the acting powers in Kiev in order to justify charges against Russia about inciting and even organizing disorder in south-east Ukraine. [...]

But the important thing is not the distortion of facts, but the stubborn unwillingness or inability to see reality as it actually is, and in striving to impose on the rest of the world a distorted view of what's happening in south-east Ukraine. From briefing to briefing to justify the riots of the "heroes of Maidan" but to describe the protests in Donetsk, Kharkiv, Luhansk, Slavyansk and other cities as actions guided from outside terrorists – It's not simply a double standard, but blatant hypocrisy.


Now, as the ruling regime in Kiev has made an attempt to use force, the official [rhetoric of] the White House and State Department that this is a "maintenance of law and order", indicates nothing less than an endorsement for [Kiev's] war against their own people. Washington must recognize the catastrophic consequences of such reckless support for its Kiev charges."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/ukraine-on-the-brink-live-blog-16-april
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #232 on: April 16, 2014, 01:03:44 PM »
Some of this is making me giggle. I really feel bad for the Ukrainian troops - it's so awkward for them. Poor things.

Quote
The hesitancy – or unwillingness – of Ukrainian troops to use their weapons has produced multiple awkward confrontations with civilian crowds Wednesday, including one in Pchyolkino south of Kratamorsk, which seems still to be unresolved after an hours-long standoff. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon hears a Ukrainian commander call his superiors for guidance:


max seddon ✔ @maxseddon  Follow
25th Airborne commander in Pcholkino standing on an APC and calling command. "They've captured us and are using dirty tricks." Humiliating


Quote
max seddon ✔ @maxseddon  Follow
Hard to see even the biggest Russia hawks in the West wanting to arm Ukraine after Pcholkino. Military command has disgraced itself utterly

« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:06:12 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #233 on: April 16, 2014, 01:07:42 PM »
The United States is working on a package of non-lethal aid for Ukraine that could include medical supplies and clothing, but would stop short of providing body armor and other military-style equipment, U.S. officials said Wednesday. The AP reports:


The incremental assistance would be aimed both at bolstering the Ukrainian military as it seeks to halt the advances of pro-Russian forces in the east, as well as showing symbolic U.S. support for Ukraine's efforts. But the aid is unlikely to satisfy the Obama administration's critics, who say what the Ukrainians really need are weapons to defend themselves.

Quote
"We ought to at least, for God's sake, give them some light weapons with which to defend themselves," Sen. John McCain, a leading Republican, said over the weekend.

The administration has said it is considering aid requests from Ukraine, but is not actively considering sending weapons, ammunition or other lethal assistance. [...]

U.S. assistance to Ukraine's military has so far been limited to about 300,000 ready to eat meals, which were shipped in late March. The U.S. has also authorized a $1 billion loan guarantee for Ukraine's fledgling government.
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #234 on: April 16, 2014, 01:30:07 PM »
David Stern
 
BBC News, Donetsk
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ukraine's "anti-terrorist" operation is looking more and more a non-event - or worse, an outright fiasco.

Kiev officials have admitted they have no time to lose to extinguish the growing insurrection in the country's east.

But the decision to send the army in has so far backfired terribly.

The soldiers have been helpless and obviously unhappy with being deployed against crowds of civilians.

Ukraine's new leaders are under a great amount of pressure - not just from the Kremlin and the pro-Russian activists, but from their own supporters, outraged at their government's inability to stem the separatist tide.

Right now, everything has been thrown into doubt - even the future of this government and of Ukraine itself.

The biggest question is what will follow.

Quote
One officer said he had not "come to fight" and would never obey orders to shoot his "own people".

"A column was blocked by a crowd of local people in Kramatorsk with members of a Russian diversionary-terrorist group among them," the defence ministry said its statement.

The military vehicles were then taken to Sloviansk where they are being held by "people in uniforms who have no relation to Ukraine's armed forces," the ministry said.

The Ukrainian troops appear to have been disarmed before being fed by pro-Russian militants at a cafe in Sloviansk and then put on a bus back to their home city of Dnipropetrovsk.

In another incident, several hundred residents of Pchyolkino, south of Sloviansk, surrounded another column of 14 Ukrainian military vehicles.

After the crowd was reinforced by pro-Russian gunmen, negotiations ensued and the troops were allowed to drive their vehicles away, but only after agreeing to surrender the magazines from their assault rifles.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27053500
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #235 on: April 16, 2014, 01:36:14 PM »
Right. Except the demonstrations became increasingly radicalised and violent with the incorporation of nationalist and far right groups. They were also taking over administrative buildings and police stations. In contrast, the protests in the East have yet to become violent but the Kiev regime saw it fit to deploy the armed forces. However, these armed forces have thus far shown a measure of reluctance to engage the local population, saying they would not fire on their own people and in some instances even defecting.

Toppa you kicksy yes... the demonstrations became more violent after the police tried to clear Independence Square and started beating, kidnapping and shooting people.  If I really want to I could pull numerous eye-witness accounts attesting to the same.  All you have to offer in support of what you saying is Russian propaganda soundbites.  If you have sources from people on the ground at the time of the protests that would be a different story.

With regards to the protests in Kiev...

Quote
Confusion continues to reign in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russia gunmen remain in control of many government offices even as the Ukrainian military sends in troops, tanks and armed aircraft in an attempt to dislodge them.

Armed pro-Russian protesters have taken over control of government buildings but you claim there hasn't been any violence?  What the guns for?  What about the image of pro-Ukrainian counter-protesters being beaten... or the clashes with Ukrainian police?  You don't think the armed occupation of the buildings necessitates involving the armed forces, especially if the police have been overwhelmed?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/04/15/303183031/ukrainian-military-moves-against-pro-russia-protesters

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #236 on: April 16, 2014, 02:00:29 PM »
Right. Except the demonstrations became increasingly radicalised and violent with the incorporation of nationalist and far right groups. They were also taking over administrative buildings and police stations. In contrast, the protests in the East have yet to become violent but the Kiev regime saw it fit to deploy the armed forces. However, these armed forces have thus far shown a measure of reluctance to engage the local population, saying they would not fire on their own people and in some instances even defecting.

Toppa you kicksy yes... the demonstrations became more violent after the police tried to clear Independence Square and started beating, kidnapping and shooting people.  If I really want to I could pull numerous eye-witness accounts attesting to the same.  All you have to offer in support of what you saying is Russian propaganda soundbites.  If you have sources from people on the ground at the time of the protests that would be a different story.

With regards to the protests in Kiev...

Quote
Confusion continues to reign in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russia gunmen remain in control of many government offices even as the Ukrainian military sends in troops, tanks and armed aircraft in an attempt to dislodge them.

Armed pro-Russian protesters have taken over control of government buildings but you claim there hasn't been any violence?  What the guns for?  What about the image of pro-Ukrainian counter-protesters being beaten... or the clashes with Ukrainian police?  You don't think the armed occupation of the buildings necessitates involving the armed forces, especially if the police have been overwhelmed?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/04/15/303183031/ukrainian-military-moves-against-pro-russia-protesters

You're the kicksy one because I can easily find the articles that show that the "heroes" of Kiev became horribly violent. You accuse me of regurgitating Russian propaganda - except the news sites I read such as the BBC and the Guardian are most certainly not mouth-pieces of Russian propaganda and clearly depict the violence of the "protesters" in Kiev. And I guess the authorities in New York, when they were beating protesters left and right during the Occupy Wall Street protests were what? What would you say about them?

And because there are armed persons in the Eastern Ukraine protests, does not mean they have or are engaged in violence - that's not a difficult distinction to make.

The protests in the Eastern Ukraine are significantly milder than those in Kiev yet the rhetoric against them is starkly different. HYPOCRITES. They bit off more than they can chew when they decided to agitate Ukraine and effect regime change. Now they're trying to make it seem as though the leaders in Kiev are legitimate. What a farce. The population of Eastern Ukraine have just as much a right to protest against those who seized power. You talk of violence? Why were those two 'pro-Russian' candidates for presidency beaten and one is actually in critical condition in the hospital? Please eh.

What about when the head of the media corporation who was beaten by members of parliament - those far right extremists who the EU in previous years have issued several cautionary declarations against - after they beat him on camera and forced him to resign because his station broadcast Russia's absorption of Crimea. And the most ironic part is that he was beaten up by the minister in charge of Media FREEDOM! Where was the condemnation by the White House and the EU? That's the sort of 'government' the West are propping up. Yet they want to talk about "democracy" and "freedom".
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:08:19 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #237 on: April 16, 2014, 02:30:35 PM »
Oh, and I wonder when Obama is going to send Nuland in to hand out bread to the protesters in Eastern Ukraine!
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Offline Bakes

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #238 on: April 16, 2014, 02:48:58 PM »
You're the kicksy one because I can easily find the articles that show that the "heroes" of Kiev became horribly violent. You accuse me of regurgitating Russian propaganda - except the news sites I read such as the BBC and the Guardian are most certainly not mouth-pieces of Russian propaganda and clearly depict the violence of the "protesters" in Kiev. And I guess the authorities in New York, when they were beating protesters left and right during the Occupy Wall Street protests were what? What would you say about them?

Post yuh articles about the "heroes" of Kiev becoming violent... just make sure yuh post the entire chronology that shows that the violence started when police started cracking down, beating and kidnapping... AND shooting protesters.  That's the third time I mentioning it.  Nobody is denying the protests turned violent... yuh need to read better.  The issue is that only after the police under the former regime attacked peaceful protesters, that the protesters started fighting back.  And all along is the same Guardian and BBC articles I posting.  I not even posting American sources... that last NPR article notwithstanding.  You CANNOT post one credible source from either the Guardian or BBC that says it was Americans agitating behind the protests, or that the protests was the work of neo-Nazis. 

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And because there are armed persons in the Eastern Ukraine protests, does not mean they have or are engaged in violence - that's not a difficult distinction to make.

The protests in the Eastern Ukraine are significantly milder than those in Kiev yet the rhetoric against them is starkly different. HYPOCRITES. They bit off more than they can chew when they decided to agitate Ukraine and effect regime change. Now they're trying to make it seem as though the leaders in Kiev are legitimate. What a farce. The population of Eastern Ukraine have just as much a right to protest against those who seized power. You talk of violence? Why were those two 'pro-Russian' candidates for presidency beaten and one is actually in critical condition in the hospital? Please eh.

What about when the head of the media corporation who was beaten by members of parliament - those far right extremists who the EU in previous years have issued several cautionary declarations against - after they beat him on camera and forced him to resign because his station broadcast Russia's absorption of Crimea. And the most ironic part is that he was beaten up by the minister in charge of Media FREEDOM! Where was the condemnation by the White House and the EU? That's the sort of 'government' the West are propping up. Yet they want to talk about "democracy" and "freedom".

You are being ridiculous... it really don't make sense for me to go on arguing with you.  Everybody acknowledges that there are Neo-Nazis mixed in among the protestors.  You choose to harp on one or two isolated incidents where the pro-Ukraine supporters have been violent, while glibly overlooking the fact that for the most part, most of the violence has been perpetrated by those sympathetic to Russia.  You have your biased view and that is that.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 07:49:11 PM by Bakes »

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #239 on: April 16, 2014, 06:19:46 PM »
Given the sources, I really shouldn't be surprised that is Ribbit and Ramgoat who are leading the chorus on this "coup" talk.  I surprise either of them could find the time to stop swinging from each other's nuts long enough to log on and post.  The fact of the matter is that Yanukovych's government had a very tenuous hold on power and he relied on the support of the opposition to maintain power.  Following the protests he lost the support of 75% of Parliament, who voted for his removal from office, then his own party disavowed him.  He subsequently fled the country.  No one "overthrow" him, Parliament withdrew its support of him and he was unable to stay in power.  It's as simple as that.  Anyone calling that a "coup" has nary a clue what they're talking about... but again, considering the sources, that's actually being redundant.
    Are you dense ?   Regardless of whether parliament withdrew their support , the presidency is separate from parliament and he could have still remained president .
 Parliament only withdrew their support after he fled .
 The president wasn't stupid, he knew the fate that awaited him when the EU and the US are involved .
 Remember Saddam Hussein and  Qaddafi?.