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Author Topic: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin  (Read 45693 times)

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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #330 on: May 13, 2014, 12:21:18 PM »
VP Biden's Son Joins Ukrainian Gas Company's Board

Vice President Joe Biden's youngest son, Hunter Biden, is joining the board of a gas company operating in Ukraine.

That's according to Burisma Holdings. The company says Biden will head the company's legal unit and seek support for Burisma among international organizations.

The announcement comes as Ukraine is looking to decrease its reliance on Russian energy. Western countries believe Russia would have less leverage in the crisis with Ukraine if Europe was less dependent on Russian gas.

Burisma says it's the largest private gas producer in Ukraine, but a state-owned company controls most gas production there.

Securities and Exchange Commission records show Burisma is based in Cyprus. The vice president will visit Cyprus next week and has been a key player in the U.S. response to the Ukraine crisis.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/vp-bidens-son-joins-ukrainian-gas-companys-board-23699275
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #331 on: May 13, 2014, 02:03:48 PM »
Doubt it - as I said at the start Ukraine has been made into a plaything. American politicians has a habit of profiting off war.

Offline grimm01

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #332 on: May 13, 2014, 05:10:36 PM »
Don't worry Toppa, clearly his secondary career as an Ice Hockey player is secure.

Vladimir Putin plays ice hockey in Sochi
Telegraph UK


Russian President Vladimir Putin plays an ice hockey game in a league he created in 2011

President Vladimir Putin has frequently been seen striking a sporting pose, but on Saturday, the Russian leader played a full game of ice hockey with amateur and professional players.

Mr Putin scored 11 times, helping his team to a 21:4 victory.

The game was organised by the Night Hockey League and took place in the Bolshoy Arena in Sochi's Olympic park as part of the festival of Russian amateur hockey.

Mr Putin created the league in 2011 in an attempt to keep athletes competing over the age of 40.
Speaking after the match, Mr Putin said: “There are no winners or losers here. This is a friendly game. It’s a show and everyone enjoyed it."

Watch/Read More


Swap out Putin for Kim Jung-un and this could be a North Korean article.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #333 on: May 13, 2014, 05:12:27 PM »
exactly my thoughts Grimm lol

Offline Deeks

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #334 on: May 13, 2014, 06:06:39 PM »
Like Putin playing against tranqulized tigers or what?

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #335 on: May 13, 2014, 06:16:26 PM »
Like Putin playing against tranqulized tigers or what?

Watch the longer highlights - it's embarrassing to watch grown men patronise a man like that in a sport. Would you be the one to tackle an ex-KGB Premier of Russia?

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #336 on: May 13, 2014, 08:18:41 PM »
 Great goal by Putin . Reminds me  of the greatest Russian forward ever..... Valery Kharlamov   
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 08:22:34 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #337 on: May 14, 2014, 03:11:46 AM »
Great goal by Putin . Reminds me  of the greatest Russian forward ever..... Valery Kharlamov


Offline asylumseeker

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #338 on: May 14, 2014, 03:14:02 AM »
Great goal by Putin . Reminds me  of the greatest Russian forward ever..... Valery Kharlamov   

:applause:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BpgNkEpfdws</a>

Think of the 2022 conversation regarding reparations as the item tabled for future discussion when initially raised for negotiation during talks in 1834. A lot of intere$t has accrued.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #339 on: May 14, 2014, 01:03:57 PM »
Why shouldn't Hunter Biden join the board of a gas company in Ukraine?

The son of the US vice-president has been chosen to take charge of energy firm Burisma's legal unit – a decision based purely on merit, of course

Name: Hunter Biden.

Age: 44.

Appearance: Chip off the old block.

His names rings a bell. Is he related to someone famous? He's the son of Joe Biden, the US vice president.

What is he, sort of a wayward, ne'er-do-well playboy type? Not really. He's a graduate of Yale Law School and a former senior vice-president at MBNA America Bank.

Good for him. During the Clinton administration he worked in the US Department of Commerce. He's presently a partner in an investment firm. And counsel for a national law firm. And an adjunct professor at Georgetown University.

I get it: he likes to keep busy. He has even found the time to join the board of a gas company called Burisma Holdings Ltd.

Never heard of it. Perhaps that's because it's a Ukrainian gas company; Ukraine's largest private gas producer, in fact. He's taking charge of the company's legal unit.

Isn't that a bit fishy? Why do you say that?

Because he's the vice-president's son! That's a coincidence. "This is totally based on merit," said Burisma's chairman, Alan Apter.

He doesn't sound very Ukrainian. He's American, as is the other new board member, Devon Archer.

Who? Devon Archer, who works with Hunter Biden at Rosemont Seneca partners, which is half owned by Rosemont Capital, a private equity firm founded by Archer and Christopher Heinz.

Who? Christopher Heinz … John Kerry's stepson.

I think Putin's propaganda people can take a long weekend; their work is being done for them. What do you mean?

Hasn't Joe Biden pledged to help Ukraine become more energy independent in the wake of its troubles with Russia? Well, yes.

And isn't Burisma, as a domestic producer, well positioned to profit from rising gas prices caused by the conflict? Possibly, but Hunter Biden is a salaried board member, not an investor. According to anonymous sources in the Wall Street Journal, neither Rosemont Seneca nor Rosemont Capital has made any financial investment in Burisma.

So it's not fishy at all? No one's saying that.

Do say: "Somebody needs to get involved in Ukraine's corporate governance, and it might as well be a clutch of rich, well-connected American dudes with weird first names."

Don't say: "Thanks, Dad."

http://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/2014/may/14/hunter-biden-job-board-ukraine-biggest-gas-producer-burisma
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Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #340 on: May 15, 2014, 01:03:41 AM »
Nothing to say Tiresais? I'm soooooo shocked.  ::) Come at tell us more about Putin this and Putin that.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #341 on: May 15, 2014, 03:18:43 AM »
Nothing to say Tiresais? I'm soooooo shocked.  ::) Come at tell us more about Putin this and Putin that.

Erm Toppa I already pointed out how I'm not surprised by this. Tell me are you surprised by Putin's inner circle being the main investors in The Crimea? No?

The élite always try to profit from chaos and misery, not to get too Marxian on you.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #342 on: May 15, 2014, 11:50:38 AM »
Russia halts rocket exports to US, hitting space and military programmes

Russia announces decision to halt export of crucial rocket engines in response to US sanctions over annexation of Crimea

Russia's deputy prime minister, Dmitry Rogozin, has announced it will halt the export of rocket engines crucial to America's military defence programme.

The move marks a serious deterioration in US-Russian cooperation in space, which for two decades had remained largely aloft from Earthly politics. It could prove to be a serious set back for America's ailing space programme.

Russian's move is the latest step in an escalating series of sanctions affecting space cooperation brought about by the Russian annexation of Crimea.

On 3 April, Nasa announced that it was suspending its partnership with Russia over all space activities apart from the International Space Station (ISS).

It was a risky move because the US lost the ability to launch its own astronauts with the abandonment of the space shuttle programme in 2011. Private companies are now developing replacement capsules but flights carrying astronauts will not happen until December 2015.

Until then, the US has no choice but to rely on the Russians.

Now Moscow has signalled the end of the ISS collaboration, too. The Russian news agency Interfax reported on Tuesday that it would not extend its collaboration on the ISS beyond 2020.

The countries have been collaborating on this project since 1993, following the collapse of the Soviet Union. "After 2020, we would like to divert these funds [used for ISS] to more promising space projects," said Rogozin. These could include collaborations with the Chinese on other space stations or even moon bases.

The Russian RD-180 engine has been in production since 1999. The US has imported more than forty of them to power its Atlas V rockets into space.

Designed to be expendable, the RD-180s are not recovered and refurbished after use. So a constant supply is needed to keep up with the US launch manifest.

Although Nasa relies on the Atlas V to launch some of its deep space probes, such as the Curiosity rover currently operating on Mars, most are used to loft American spy satellites and other classified payloads into space.

Under the terms of the new restrictions, it is only rockets destined for military rather than civilian launches that would be disallowed. But in practice it will make it difficult for the US to import any of the rockets because it will hard to prove the hardware is not destined for a military programme.

While the space station is the most visible sign of the superpowers' collaboration, it is the loss of the RD-180 engines that will really hurt, according to space commentator Brian Harvey, who has reported on the Russian space programme since the 1970s.

"For the Americans not to take RD-180s any more would probably be quite disruptive of their space programme in the medium-term," he says. This is because of the time it would take to develop a replacement.

"Most people don't realise just how advanced and powerful Russian rocket engines are," says Harvey.

He estimates that it would probably take five years for the US to build up the necessary technologies and manufacturing expertise to replace the engines. But it does open another opportunity for private companies including PayPal founder Elon Musk's Space X which is developing the Dragon Capsule to ferry people and cargo to the ISS.

On 30 April, Space X filed a protest with the US court of federal claims over bulk-buying of the Russian rockets. A temporary ban on importing the RD-180s was ordered because the company responsible for their manufacture, NPO Energomash, was said to be under the control of Rogozin, who is on the US sanction list over Ukraine.

Following an appeal by the US State, Treasury and Commerce departments, the US federal court dissolved the ban but within days, Rogozin announced his own prohibition. So the US may be forced to develop a replacement engine after all.

In the meantime they must rely on already bought RD-180s and stocks are dwindling. The US was expecting the delivery of another five this November but the restriction places these in doubt.

"With a bit of sense, the present episode in Ukraine will be over before that happens," says Harvey.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/15/us-space-military-programme-russia-sanctions
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #343 on: May 16, 2014, 08:52:07 AM »
Ukraine crisis: UN sounds alarm on human rights in east
BBC News


The UN has warned of an "alarming deterioration" in human rights in eastern Ukraine, where separatists are fighting security forces.

It also found "serious problems" of harassment and persecution of ethnic Tatars in Crimea, the mainly ethnic Russian region Moscow annexed in March.

Russia condemned the report, saying it ignored abuses by Ukraine's government.

Meanwhile, a third-party initiative to restore law and order in one troubled city, Mariupol, seems to be succeeding.

Violence between separatists and pro-Ukrainian forces has left dozens dead in the east and south this month.

Separatists control towns in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, where they have been skirmishing with units of the Ukrainian security forces, sent in to reassert government control.

The revolt in the east gained momentum after Russia annexed Ukraine's mainly ethnic Russian region of Crimea in March.

Moscow acted after the overthrow of Ukraine's elected pro-Russian President, Viktor Yanukovych, during unrest in the capital Kiev in February, and his replacement with an interim government, backed by Ukrainian nationalists. A new Ukrainian president is due to be elected on 25 May.

In another development, former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt has accused EU officials of risking war with Russia by displaying "megalomania" in Ukraine.

Mr Schmidt, chancellor from 1974 to 1982, told German newspaper Bild: "The danger that the situation gets ever more tense, as it did in August 1914, is growing day by day."

'Tearing Ukraine apart'
The UN's conclusions are contained in a 37-page report, its second monthly assessment of the situation.

UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said in Geneva: "Those with influence on the armed groups responsible for much of the violence in eastern Ukraine [must] do their utmost to rein in these men who seem bent on tearing the country apart."

The UN's report details growing lawlessness in eastern and southern Ukraine:

  • Peaceful demonstrations, primarily by supporters of Ukraine's unity, deteriorate into violence
    Protesters are attacked and beaten
    Local police do nothing to prevent the violence and sometimes openly co-operate with the attackers
    UN monitors have also documented cases of targeted killings, torture and abduction, primarily carried out by anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine.

The report highlights threats to journalists and international observers, and abductions or attacks on some.

In its response, Russia's foreign ministry said the report lacked any semblance of objectivity, and accused its authors of following "political orders" to whitewash Ukraine's new, pro-Western leaders.

The report, it said in a statement in Russian, ignored "the crudest violations of human rights by the self-proclaimed Kiev authorities".

Citizen patrols
Separatists in Donetsk announced on Thursday they were setting up their own parliament and were planning to open the border with Russia shortly.

Steelworkers in the flash-point port of Mariupol have begun citizen patrols after talks between officials from their company Metinvest, which is owned by oligarch Rinat Akhmetov, and local police and community leaders.

Metinvest employees could be seen on Friday removing barricades in the city. There are conflicting reports as to whether separatists in the city are backing the initiative too.

Mr Akhmetov, Ukraine's richest man, was the main financial backer of deposed President Yanukovych and remains a powerful figure. He has called for the east to remain inside a "united Ukraine".


Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #344 on: May 16, 2014, 08:52:51 AM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #345 on: May 17, 2014, 06:23:33 PM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?
Muslims  in an unfriendly country  are always " those poor  Muslims ", anywhere else   they are extremists .
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 06:29:51 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #346 on: May 18, 2014, 01:23:12 AM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?
Muslims  in an unfriendly country  are always " those poor  Muslims ", anywhere else   they are extremists .

"In an unfriendly country"? Are you serious? They've done nothing wrong - they aren't extremists they're just people like you and me. Moreover, that is their country! The clue is in the name - Crimean Tartars. They were the majority ethnic group in Crimea for 800 years before Stalin forcibly relocated and brutalised the population.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #347 on: May 18, 2014, 01:25:35 AM »
since Toppa has nothing to say about the human rights violations perpetrated under Putin's cronies...

Ukraine is approaching point of no return, says UN chief
BBC News


Ukraine is edging towards "the point of no return", a senior UN official says, amid rising tensions between security forces and pro-Russia separatists.

UN Assistant Secretary General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic told the BBC that the crisis had worrying echoes of the 1990s war in his native Croatia.

Reports from eastern Ukraine say clashes between government forces and separatist militants have continued.

The separatists have not taken part in EU-brokered talks to defuse the crisis.

On Saturday, they appointed a prime minister for what they call the People's Republic of Donetsk.

The man, Alexandr Borodai, said the self-proclaimed entity would apply to join Russia.

The separatists have taken control of government buildings across cities in south-eastern and southern Ukraine

Violence between the two sides has left dozens of people dead in recent weeks.

A new Ukrainian president is due to be elected on 25 May.

Mr Simonovic told the BBC: "What I'm really afraid is that country is approaching to a point of no return if there is no adequate and urgent action taken."

The UN says it has documented countless incidents of abduction, torture and murder in south and eastern Ukraine.

Deadlock
Although abuses have been committed on both sides, Mr Simonovic said, the majority were by the separatists.

He added that he hoped the planned presidential election could take place, but that it would be "extremely difficult".

"I firmly believe that there is a window of opportunity that should be used," he said, but added that it was closing.

The separatists have held referendums in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, and claimed to have won overwhelming popular backing. Both the Ukrainian government in Kiev and Western countries regard the votes as illegitimate.

The BBC's Mark Lowen in Donetsk says both sides in the conflict are digging in.

The Ukrainian government refuses to talk to armed separatists and the self-proclaimed authorities say they will hold a dialogue until Kiev ends its "occupation" of the east.

The revolt in the east gained momentum after Russia annexed Ukraine's mainly ethnic Russian region of Crimea in March.

Moscow acted after the overthrow of Ukraine's elected pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych during unrest in the capital Kiev in February.

Offline kounty

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #348 on: May 18, 2014, 07:22:03 AM »
since Toppa has nothing to say about the human rights violations perpetrated under Putin's cronies...

In light of your earlier call for more fair-mindedness in the reporting, I guess your strategy is to pick one side (pro-western) b/c she pick the other side (thus creating some sort of balance)? Are you a Cameron / Obama crony?
I think the situation there is a little too complex to be boiled down to cronyism.

I have to step back and ask you your take on the Libya situation in 2011 since you weren't on the forum yet. When (what day, month, event in that conflict, as an example) does the 'outside world' 'recognize' a group of people as the 'legitimate' government and when not? (I'm asking b/c I believe you study more on this than me...just trying to educate myself).

also your human rights comment remind  me of a meme with the michelle Obama bring back our girls sign, juxtaposed with a muslim dude sign saying something to the effect that: her husband slaughter many times more innocent muslim girls than boko.  ...point being yes there is wrong, but as Jesus said, you can't be lookin for the speck when the beam in your own.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #349 on: May 18, 2014, 10:07:12 AM »
since Toppa has nothing to say about the human rights violations perpetrated under Putin's cronies...

In light of your earlier call for more fair-mindedness in the reporting, I guess your strategy is to pick one side (pro-western) b/c she pick the other side (thus creating some sort of balance)? Are you a Cameron / Obama crony?
I think the situation there is a little too complex to be boiled down to cronyism.

I have to step back and ask you your take on the Libya situation in 2011 since you weren't on the forum yet. When (what day, month, event in that conflict, as an example) does the 'outside world' 'recognize' a group of people as the 'legitimate' government and when not? (I'm asking b/c I believe you study more on this than me...just trying to educate myself).

also your human rights comment remind  me of a meme with the michelle Obama bring back our girls sign, juxtaposed with a muslim dude sign saying something to the effect that: her husband slaughter many times more innocent muslim girls than boko.  ...point being yes there is wrong, but as Jesus said, you can't be lookin for the speck when the beam in your own.

Speficially, I am referring to those in Putin's inner circle who are profiting from the Crimean annexation, which I allege is not coincidental. I'm not boiling this down to cronyism - if you had read the whole topic you'd know I picked a middle/West position in my first two posts, but why read the whole topic when you can just belittle me without any information? Cronyism is a consequence of the fractured Ukrainian government on both sides, be it Biden/Kerry's son or Putin's closest inner-circle. The difference is that the former are not committing or promoting human rights violations, the latter I don't know how they're going to screw Ukrainians but you can bet there's some way that they'll end up significantly richer from it..

My replies have mostly focused on criticising Toppa's narrow set of sources, mainly deriving from positions pro-Putin, that and the stupidity of Russia's "ally", because my preferred option - a Ukraine that hadn't been pulled between Russia and the US - isn't on the table.

Your question is the one I find the most interesting - I raised this last month and was met with derision from Toppa.

So when is a coup acceptable, out of interest? Are there no situations in which it's acceptable to overthrow a democratically elected politician? What if there are doubts over the fairness of the elections? What if the politician has pilfered literally billions of dollars for themselves? What if he is seen as acting for the interests of a foreign power?

I can't assess whether this was the will of the Crimeans or not - propaganda and espionage from both Russia and the US means we may never know for sure. What I can say for sure is that Crimean Tartars and other opposing groups boycotted the referendum that was held under gun-point from Putin with questions that didn't allow re-integration to Ukraine as an option, which means I don't find the referendum a particularly convincing expression of free will.

I had serious misgivings in Libya, but I don't morn the loss of a scumbag dictator and I won't ever, same in Iraq or Afghanistan. I'll morn the human toll, which has been considerable in all three and which is the primary concern. Lest you read me wrong - I'm against drone strikes (death penalties for human beings without trial or conviction) and torture (ineffective, immoral), and there really aren't many actions to praise in America's foreign policy interventions in the Bush or Obama years.

Jesus also gave the Good Samaritan example, which is part of a broader problem that every position, good or evil, can find a justification in the Bible.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #350 on: May 18, 2014, 10:11:20 AM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?
Muslims  in an unfriendly country  are always " those poor  Muslims ", anywhere else   they are extremists .

"In an unfriendly country"? Are you serious? They've done nothing wrong - they aren't extremists they're just people like you and me. Moreover, that is their country! The clue is in the name - Crimean Tartars. They were the majority ethnic group in Crimea for 800 years before Stalin forcibly relocated and brutalised the population.
This is not my view but the narrative   of the west and yes Russia is perceived as an unfriendly
 country 
Stalin was a Georgian and the Crimean Tartars  beef should be with Georgia not  Russia
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:54:02 AM by Ramgoat »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #351 on: May 18, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?
Muslims  in an unfriendly country  are always " those poor  Muslims ", anywhere else   they are extremists .

"In an unfriendly country"? Are you serious? They've done nothing wrong - they aren't extremists they're just people like you and me. Moreover, that is their country! The clue is in the name - Crimean Tartars. They were the majority ethnic group in Crimea for 800 years before Stalin forcibly relocated and brutalised the population.
This is not my view but the narrative   of the west and yes Russia is perceived as an unfriendly
 country 
Stalin was a Georgian and the Crimean Tartars  beef should be with Georgia not  Russia

That's like saying "Hitler was Austrian, so Jewish beef should have been with Austria not Nazi Germany". Stalin was leading Russia, not Georgia, when he forcibly moved those people. Moreover, it's Russia, not Georgia, who has annexed Crimea and started discriminating against them

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #352 on: May 18, 2014, 11:09:56 AM »
Look at that, Crimean Tartars being discriminated against. Who knew?
Muslims  in an unfriendly country  are always " those poor  Muslims ", anywhere else   they are extremists .

"In an unfriendly country"? Are you serious? They've done nothing wrong - they aren't extremists they're just people like you and me. Moreover, that is their country! The clue is in the name - Crimean Tartars. They were the majority ethnic group in Crimea for 800 years before Stalin forcibly relocated and brutalised the population.
This is not my view but the narrative   of the west and yes Russia is perceived as an unfriendly
 country 
Stalin was a Georgian and the Crimean Tartars  beef should be with Georgia not  Russia

That's like saying "Hitler was Austrian, so Jewish beef should have been with Austria not Nazi Germany". Stalin was leading Russia, not Georgia, when he forcibly moved those people. Moreover, it's Russia, not Georgia, who has annexed Crimea and started discriminating against them
  Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #353 on: May 18, 2014, 11:17:55 AM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #354 on: May 18, 2014, 11:26:17 AM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #355 on: May 18, 2014, 01:49:28 PM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Putin conducted a referendum with troops on the ground and minorities boycotting the vote - do you think it was a fair election? How can you tell what teh will of the Crimean people is while they were an occupied nation? Whether with pen or sword it's still an annexation.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #356 on: May 18, 2014, 02:41:38 PM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Putin conducted a referendum with troops on the ground and minorities boycotting the vote - do you think it was a fair election? How can you tell what teh will of the Crimean people is while they were an occupied nation? Whether with pen or sword it's still an annexation.
The Russians were allowed up to 25,000 on Crimea to protect the Russian black fleet  in Sevastopol and it is not like they moved troops from the mainland
  I will not shed a tear  for the Crimean Tatars because they were complicit in Genocide against the Russians through  out history .
 They helped the  Mongols ,  the Ottoman Turks  , Hitler    and now they are helping NATO all against the Russians
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:53:55 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #357 on: May 18, 2014, 03:06:53 PM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Putin conducted a referendum with troops on the ground and minorities boycotting the vote - do you think it was a fair election? How can you tell what teh will of the Crimean people is while they were an occupied nation? Whether with pen or sword it's still an annexation.
The Russians were allowed up to 25,000 on Crimea to protect the Russian black fleet  in Sevastopol and it is not like they moved troops from the mainland
  I will not shed a tear  for the Crimean Tatars because they were complicit in Genocide against the Russians through  out history .
 They helped the  Mongols ,  the Ottoman Turks  , Hitler    and now they are helping NATO all against the Russians

So the children deserve this? You believe sons should be punished for the sins of the father? Should I be punished for how my forefathers acted? Where does this culpability end exactly? Moreover, they are still Crimeans, are they worth less than others living in Crimea? Were these troops used in accordance with their treaty, or did they violate the treaty and their word?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:08:32 PM by Tiresais »

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #358 on: May 18, 2014, 03:13:41 PM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Putin conducted a referendum with troops on the ground and minorities boycotting the vote - do you think it was a fair election? How can you tell what teh will of the Crimean people is while they were an occupied nation? Whether with pen or sword it's still an annexation.
The Russians were allowed up to 25,000 on Crimea to protect the Russian black fleet  in Sevastopol and it is not like they moved troops from the mainland
  I will not shed a tear  for the Crimean Tatars because they were complicit in Genocide against the Russians through  out history .
 They helped the  Mongols ,  the Ottoman Turks  , Hitler    and now they are helping NATO all against the Russians

So the children deserve this? You believe sons should be punished for the sins of the father? Should I be punished for how my forefathers acted? Where does this culpability end exactly? Moreover, they are still Crimeans, are they worth less than others living in Crimea? Were these troops used in accordance with their treaty, or did they violate the treaty and their word?
If the children are acting like their fathers, then yes.
 The Russians actions    in Crimea were dictated by events in  Kiev.

Offline Toppa

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Re: A premature history of the second Cold War and Putin
« Reply #359 on: May 18, 2014, 03:48:08 PM »
Stalin was leading the Soviet Union and not Russia
 Russia did not annex  Crimea , they retook property that  was stolen from them

Who stole it? How is this not an annexation?
Khrushchev in 1954 with  a stroke of a pen ceded Crimea to Ukraine .
The residents of Crimea was never consulted .  This  historical wrong was  corrected by Putin with a referendum and  without a single  shot being fired .
 It so happened that Khrushchev was an ethnic Ukranian

Putin conducted a referendum with troops on the ground and minorities boycotting the vote - do you think it was a fair election? How can you tell what teh will of the Crimean people is while they were an occupied nation? Whether with pen or sword it's still an annexation.

Uh huh, and now the West are pushing for an election in Ukraine with Kiev government carrying out an assault on the Eastern Ukraine and unarmed civilians being killed. They want an election in Ukraine but not one in Syria. I wonder why. Oh and I read that UN report - my heart bleeds.
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!