April 02, 2020, 01:02:40 PM

Author Topic: WC sidetrack: Russia, National Security, and Responses  (Read 4118 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
WC sidetrack: Russia, National Security, and Responses
« on: March 08, 2014, 09:02:37 PM »
Stop parroting those stupid, shameless, hypocritical politicians. If violation of "International Law" (that farce) is grounds for disqualification, the USA and England should be the first to leave, and loads more teams wouldn't be competing. You born yesterday ah wha?

Comparison to Hitler is over the top... as is trying to draw the actions of the US and UK into the frame.  There is nothing that you could point to that would suggest any equivalence.  Waiting for the obligatory Iraq reference.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:30:26 AM by Tiresais »

Offline Toppa

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5518
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 09:37:25 PM »
Stop parroting those stupid, shameless, hypocritical politicians. If violation of "International Law" (that farce) is grounds for disqualification, the USA and England should be the first to leave, and loads more teams wouldn't be competing. You born yesterday ah wha?

Comparison to Hitler is over the top... as is trying to draw the actions of the US and UK into the frame.  There is nothing that you could point to that would suggest any equivalence.  Waiting for the obligatory Iraq reference.

Not just the obligatory Iraq reference, but every other foreign intervention in the US past and present (not to mention droning). But you're right that there's not much I can point to that would be equivalent, because the US's have been much worse compared to the Crimea situation, so these Senators have some nerve.
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 09:50:37 PM »
Not just the obligatory Iraq reference, but every other foreign intervention in the US past and present (not to mention droning). But you're right that there's not much I can point to that would be equivalent, because the US's have been much worse compared to the Crimea situation, so these Senators have some nerve.

Toppa, yuh letting yuh zeal get the better of you.  Nobody paying any attention the idiot politicians in the US, but Obama is on point when he talks about Putin's actions being a violation of international law.  Russia was signatory to an agreement guaranteeing Ukrainian autonomy and prohibiting the use of armed foreign military force in the territory... here's a non-US source for you http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26481423

Offline Toppa

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5518
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 10:14:16 PM »
Not just the obligatory Iraq reference, but every other foreign intervention in the US past and present (not to mention droning). But you're right that there's not much I can point to that would be equivalent, because the US's have been much worse compared to the Crimea situation, so these Senators have some nerve.

Toppa, yuh letting yuh zeal get the better of you.  Nobody paying any attention the idiot politicians in the US, but Obama is on point when he talks about Putin's actions being a violation of international law.  Russia was signatory to an agreement guaranteeing Ukrainian autonomy and prohibiting the use of armed foreign military force in the territory... here's a non-US source for you http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26481423

What's wrong with local self-defence troops defending Crimea's right to self-determination?  ;)
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline Pointman

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4700
  • T&T football: win or lose, we still fetein'
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 10:24:22 PM »
Stop parroting those stupid, shameless, hypocritical politicians. If violation of "International Law" (that farce) is grounds for disqualification, the USA and England should be the first to leave, and loads more teams wouldn't be competing. You born yesterday ah wha?

Comparison to Hitler is over the top... as is trying to draw the actions of the US and UK into the frame.  There is nothing that you could point to that would suggest any equivalence. Waiting for the obligatory Iraq reference.

The Iraq reference would be on point as the USA did invade a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of grounds...weapons of mass destruction...that have yet to appear. With more than a million Iraqi dead since this war began, the US has no moral high ground in this Ukraine situation.
Trini to de bone; Pointman to de bone.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 11:16:18 PM »
The Iraq reference would be on point as the USA did invade a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of grounds...weapons of mass destruction...that have yet to appear. With more than a million Iraqi dead since this war began, the US has no moral high ground in this Ukraine situation.

This has nothing to do with any "moral high ground", we are talking specifically about the "violation of international law."  Say what you want about the invasion of Iraq, it still didn't violate international law, the US received the sanction of the United Nations, premised on lies and deception as it was, before launching the attack.  Putin's equally "flimsiest of grounds" justification wasn't even presented to the UN, whose responsibility it would have been (not Putin's)to go in and defend Crimea's ethnic Russian population.

Offline Pointman

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4700
  • T&T football: win or lose, we still fetein'
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 11:47:35 PM »
The Iraq reference would be on point as the USA did invade a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of grounds...weapons of mass destruction...that have yet to appear. With more than a million Iraqi dead since this war began, the US has no moral high ground in this Ukraine situation.

This has nothing to do with any "moral high ground", we are talking specifically about the "violation of international law."  Say what you want about the invasion of Iraq, it still didn't violate international law, the US received the sanction of the United Nations, premised on lies and deception as it was, before launching the attack.  Putin's equally "flimsiest of grounds" justification wasn't even presented to the UN, whose responsibility it would have been (not Putin's)to go in and defend Crimea's ethnic Russian population.


International Law is bullshit just like the ICC. Where was International Law and the UN when the US invaded Grenada and Panama or when China invaded the sovereign nation of Tibet or when the Italians invaded Ethiopia . At least Russia is saying that she is coming to the aid of ethnic Russians in the Crimea. Flimsy just like all the other invaders.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 11:55:26 PM by Pointman »
Trini to de bone; Pointman to de bone.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 05:19:59 AM »
Sport is politics. South Africa was ostracised and so should Russia imo.

Yeah, but I'm sure Crimea isn't the reason you think Russia should be 'ostracised'. Why yuh doh ostracise yuhself.

Crimea is actually the reason - it's a violation of international law akin to Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland.

Stop parroting those stupid, shameless, hypocritical politicians. If violation of "International Law" (that farce) is grounds for disqualification, the USA and England should be the first to leave, and loads more teams wouldn't be competing. You born yesterday ah wha?

Clearly you need some manners, instead of assuming my positions why don't you ask them? Yes I do think violations of international law should be punished and yes I do think that should have extended to the US and UK. I'm not inconsistent in my position and I don't claim the likelihood of enforcement. The contexts here are clearly different (the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq were clearly less 'agreeable' than that of the new Ukranian government), but the severe loss of life due to foreign intervention isn't something that I think countered any perceived benefits of a new regime. Moreover, this is further complicated by the proxy war waged from within Afghanistan (this point doesn't apply to Iraq) against the United States and to a lesser extent the UK, whereby the Taliban trained agents on terror campaigns to hit domestic and civilian targets abroad.

Individuals have a right to self-determination - I argue this whether it's the Falklands or Palestine, but this is not a clear-cut case of self-determination. Russian actions and propaganda makes it hard to discern whether this is in fact the will of Crimeans or a product of heavy Russian coercion. This is further complicated by the messy ethnic history of the region, with Stalin's purge of Crimean Tatars and consequent settling of Russians specifically to change the ethnic composition of the region.

The Hitler comparison is thus apt. Hitler's argument for entering the Sudetenland was to 'protect ethnic Germans', but these Germans as far as the historical record can tell faced no discrimination or oppression from Czechs (as is the case in Crimea). The goal was never to 'protect' a particular ethnic group but a cynical land-grab on fabricated pretext of an imagined oppression. The troops with no insignia are a sign of this - several of their tattoos suggest they are Russian Paratroopers, suggesting more an invasion than rising of ethnic Russians (who might have come later).

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 08:05:14 AM »
...

Individuals have a right to self-determination - I argue this whether it's the Falklands or Palestine, but this is not a clear-cut case of self-determination. Russian actions and propaganda makes it hard to discern whether this is in fact the will of Crimeans or a product of heavy Russian coercion. This is further complicated by the messy ethnic history of the region, with Stalin's purge of Crimean Tatars and consequent settling of Russians specifically to change the ethnic composition of the region.

...

Of course this is not the "will of Crimeans" ... in the sense that the precipitation of events has been activated by Moscow rather than Simferopol. Surely an inherent variable of Moscow's calculus is that there would be identification with the Russian fatherland by a segment of the populace in the Crimea. It's also certain that to activate Moscow's calculus local participants have contributed, BUT this is not a situation in which "will" in the form of local fomented expression led to Moscow's embrace. Not hard to discern at all. Ever heard of Dubcek?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:22:54 AM by asylumseeker »
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Deeks

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 17329
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2014, 10:00:04 AM »
Ever heard of Dubcek ?

Yep, Czeh dude who tried to reform the Czech-Slovak communist party. Communism with a smiling face. The Soviets wanted none of that and Brezhnev sent in the troops and crushed the rebellion and moved him out of power. Happened in 68. First former in high school. I could be some of allyuh father. Not that I want too.  ;D.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 10:02:50 AM by Deeks »

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2014, 02:17:25 PM »
International Law is bullshit just like the ICC.

Well since we beginning with that premise, I guess there's really nothing to discuss.  In parting I'll just leave you with a couple pointers:

"Where was International Law and the UN when the US invaded Grenada and Panama or when China invaded the sovereign nation of Tibet or when the Italians invaded Ethiopia . At least Russia is saying that she is coming to the aid of ethnic Russians in the Crimea. Flimsy just like all the other invaders."

1. Grenada

This is probably the best parallel, but even so the circumstances are drastically different.  The violence on the ground in Grenada far out-stripped that which was seen recently in the Ukraine.  Let's not forget that after deposing Bishop, Coardner et al ruled Grenada with an iron fist, implementing a shoot-to-kill curfew on locals.  Maybe you was too young to remember.  So unpopular was Coardner that the people revolted against his regime and freed Bishop... only for the troops loyal to Coardner to open fire on the crowd killing dozens... before executing Bishop and his closest comrades.  Grenada was close to being a lawless state prior to the US invasion.  Reagan definitely went about it the wrong way, and was universally condemned for it, but in the end it is imminently more justifiable than what Putin has done in the Ukraine.

2. Panama
Article 4 of the Panama Canal Treaty:

Quote
2. For the duration of this Treaty, the United States of America shall have primary responsibility to protect and defend the Canal.
The rights of the United States of America to station, train, and move military forces within the Republic of Panama are described in
the Agreement in Implementation of this Article, signed this date.

This and the fact that the Noreaga regime was considered a rogue regime for its role in faciliating the movement of drugs into the US implicating Article 51 of the UN Charter; and Article 21 of the OAS Charter, governing self-defense.

3. Tibet

The sovereignty of Tibet was never established and China had asserted control of the nation for thousands of years.  Tibet asserted its independence in the earlier part of the 20th century prior to the Chinese seizing control in 1950, but there was very little recognition of it as an independent state.  It's like Quebec arguing that it's independent of the rest of Canada. 

4. Ethiopia

The UN didn't exist back then... surprising that you don't acknowledge this.  Without the UN "international law" has very little hope for enforcement.  The precursor the the UN, the League of Nations was too weak to do anything (prevent Nazi incursions in Europe, for instance).  Even so, Mussolini's actions were roundly condemned and Ethiopia received military support from the Allied forces, helping it free itself from Italian occupation.

But as yuh say, International Law is bullshit... so I'm sure you'll continue to remain unmoved by any of this.

Offline elan

  • Go On ......Get In There!!!!!!!!
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 11620
  • WaRRioR fOr LiFe!!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2014, 09:19:47 PM »
I wonder what kept the Us from Invading T&T when the muslim over-throw the Government  ???
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 09:33:57 AM »
I wonder what kept the Us from Invading T&T when the muslim over-throw the Government  ???

Had it continued I have no doubt they would have - The US has had a long-involvement in Trinidad, considering them key to the Caribbean region especially in relation to Cuba and Venezuela - as part of "operation Enduring Freedom" they stationed special forces in T&T (classified - in the wikileaks) to train and otherwise carry out operations here.

Given the close links, they were probably well-informed enough to know that it was going to be over quickly

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 09:39:09 AM »
International Law is bullshit just like the ICC.

Well since we beginning with that premise, I guess there's really nothing to discuss.  In parting I'll just leave you with a couple pointers:

"Where was International Law and the UN when the US invaded Grenada and Panama or when China invaded the sovereign nation of Tibet or when the Italians invaded Ethiopia . At least Russia is saying that she is coming to the aid of ethnic Russians in the Crimea. Flimsy just like all the other invaders."

1. Grenada

This is probably the best parallel, but even so the circumstances are drastically different.  The violence on the ground in Grenada far out-stripped that which was seen recently in the Ukraine.  Let's not forget that after deposing Bishop, Coardner et al ruled Grenada with an iron fist, implementing a shoot-to-kill curfew on locals.  Maybe you was too young to remember.  So unpopular was Coardner that the people revolted against his regime and freed Bishop... only for the troops loyal to Coardner to open fire on the crowd killing dozens... before executing Bishop and his closest comrades.  Grenada was close to being a lawless state prior to the US invasion.  Reagan definitely went about it the wrong way, and was universally condemned for it, but in the end it is imminently more justifiable than what Putin has done in the Ukraine.

...

(While reserving comment as to the substance ... yuh mean "Coard", not "Coardner").
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:42:05 AM by asylumseeker »
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2014, 09:47:45 AM »
I wonder what kept the Us from Invading T&T when the muslim over-throw the Government  ???

Had it continued I have no doubt they would have - The US has had a long-involvement in Trinidad, considering them key to the Caribbean region especially in relation to Cuba and Venezuela - as part of "operation Enduring Freedom" they stationed special forces in T&T (classified - in the wikileaks) to train and otherwise carry out operations here.

Given the close links, they were probably well-informed enough to know that it was going to be over quickly

Quote
An air traffic controller broke his 22-year secret and testified that American military transport aircraft landed at Piarco and unloaded vehicles. Again last week, Defence Force officers denied reports of seeking or receiving US military support. "I wish to categorically deny that any members of the US Delta Force were consulted by the Defence Force," wrote Major Dave Williams on August 13, 1990.

He was responding to an Express story that the T&T Regiment had sought tactical advice from the Delta Force on storming the Red House, while it was held by hostage-taking Muslimeen. "We are not aware for a fact," Major Williams added, "that they were indeed here in Trinidad at the time."

The US Ambassador had offered "technical assistance," said the major, "but no use was made of this". He fell short of affirming that no US troops had trod T&T soil, proudly suggesting that they weren't needed. It was a measure of how, when the Police Service fell apart along with its headquarters, the troops, after a faltering start, flexed a sinew of national-security professionalism, reassuringly in reserve.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/commentaries/_Days_of_siege__airbrushed_in_memory-151272155.html
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2014, 09:59:46 AM »
Hah definitely not surprised. If they had seriously seized the government you could expect a Grenada-type response really. The US considered the Caribbean it's backyard (and has done since the mid 1800s), which should make the coming decade of post-Panama expansion Chinese involvement interesting.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2014, 10:41:43 AM »
(Nonetheless, I would not take the referenced article as definitive).
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2014, 12:02:05 PM »
(Nonetheless, I would not take the referenced article as definitive).

Sensible, the problem with these things is that unless you have a wikileaks or watergate you'll never hear about them. The CIA is currently blocking a report by the US Senate on how torture was ineffective - agencies of the US are more murky than any other.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2014, 12:59:52 PM »
Sensible, the problem with these things is that unless you have a wikileaks or watergate you'll never hear about them. The CIA is currently blocking a report by the US Senate on how torture was ineffective - agencies of the US are more murky than any other.

"Murkier" than the FSB... who poisoned one of Putin's political rival while he was in London?

Murkier than MI6 and the Chinese MSS?

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2014, 01:11:55 PM »
Sensible, the problem with these things is that unless you have a wikileaks or watergate you'll never hear about them. The CIA is currently blocking a report by the US Senate on how torture was ineffective - agencies of the US are more murky than any other.

"Murkier" than the FSB... who poisoned one of Putin's political rival while he was in London?

Murkier than MI6 and the Chinese MSS?

I should have been more specific - murkier is a relative concept. The CIA is arguably a more competent office than the FSB and MSS, meaning it's better at keeping secrets. Moreover, it appears to be able to block democratic processes within its own nation. The other bodies are not murkier relative to their government type (I get that it's a kop-out), but also less efficient and less effective arguable (bar MI6). The CIA has been a terrible evil in countries across Latin America and Africa, more so than the other two I would argue, but of course these are all relative and judgement calls.

MI6 and GCHQ are as bad - but you'd expect them to be. During the Cold War the UK had the highest concentration of spies and espionage out of any country in the world.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2014, 02:04:18 PM »
I should have been more specific - murkier is a relative concept. The CIA is arguably a more competent office than the FSB and MSS, meaning it's better at keeping secrets. Moreover, it appears to be able to block democratic processes within its own nation. The other bodies are not murkier relative to their government type (I get that it's a kop-out), but also less efficient and less effective arguable (bar MI6). The CIA has been a terrible evil in countries across Latin America and Africa, more so than the other two I would argue, but of course these are all relative and judgement calls.

MI6 and GCHQ are as bad - but you'd expect them to be. During the Cold War the UK had the highest concentration of spies and espionage out of any country in the world.

No, you should shy away from making unsubstantiated blanket statements... as is quickly becoming your penchant.  Without delving into the subjectivity of which is "murkier/murkiest", you don't know what these SECRET police agencies are involved in from what they're not.  The CIA, by dint of Hollywood popularity etc. is the name on most people's lips and the agency in most people's crosshairs, but what role is the Chinese MSS playing in fomenting discord in the West African countries in which the Chinese are currently engaged in economic colonialization?  Who are the mysterious masked gunmen standing guard at military installations in Crimea, who refuse to divulge their allegiances?  Definitely Russian, but soldiers? FSB?  Any other role the FSB might be playing in Kiev and the pro-Russia Eastern territories?

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2014, 06:32:07 PM »
This is hilarious.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/463167/You-won-t-like-me-when-I-m-angry-David-Luiz-posts-video-of-Brazil-stars-mocking-Hulk

Ah gehhin repeated kix off dis ... especially Marcelo's laugh.  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

David Luiz: Who was the worst in the championship? (referring to the FIFA 14 battle)

One by one, each player responds: HULK!

David Luiz: Who?

In unison: Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk etc.

David Luiz is ah set-up artist. If yuh check yuh could tell that it was rehearsed.  Hulk must ah jes step outside. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 03:05:13 AM »
I should have been more specific - murkier is a relative concept. The CIA is arguably a more competent office than the FSB and MSS, meaning it's better at keeping secrets. Moreover, it appears to be able to block democratic processes within its own nation. The other bodies are not murkier relative to their government type (I get that it's a kop-out), but also less efficient and less effective arguable (bar MI6). The CIA has been a terrible evil in countries across Latin America and Africa, more so than the other two I would argue, but of course these are all relative and judgement calls.

MI6 and GCHQ are as bad - but you'd expect them to be. During the Cold War the UK had the highest concentration of spies and espionage out of any country in the world.

No, you should shy away from making unsubstantiated blanket statements... as is quickly becoming your penchant.  Without delving into the subjectivity of which is "murkier/murkiest", you don't know what these SECRET police agencies are involved in from what they're not.  The CIA, by dint of Hollywood popularity etc. is the name on most people's lips and the agency in most people's crosshairs, but what role is the Chinese MSS playing in fomenting discord in the West African countries in which the Chinese are currently engaged in economic colonialization?  Who are the mysterious masked gunmen standing guard at military installations in Crimea, who refuse to divulge their allegiances?  Definitely Russian, but soldiers? FSB?  Any other role the FSB might be playing in Kiev and the pro-Russia Eastern territories?

Chinese "economic colonialism" is happening on generally more generous terms than the previous American engagements - they're certainly no worse than American corporatism and exploitation of the past 70 years. As I mentioned in the other topic, afaik some had tattoos of the parachute regiment of Russia - they are clearly not the FSB because it'd be completely stupid to have secret service members on camera, so no idea why you'd think it's them. The FSB have been working in Ukraine for over a decade now.

I pick out the CIA specifically because they block democratic processes in the US, that was the main base of my accusation of murkiness. If you'd like to explain how the MSS or FSB has anything like the level of activity as the CIA, given their much smaller budgets, go right ahead.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 04:24:22 AM »
I should have been more specific - murkier is a relative concept. The CIA is arguably a more competent office than the FSB and MSS, meaning it's better at keeping secrets. Moreover, it appears to be able to block democratic processes within its own nation. The other bodies are not murkier relative to their government type (I get that it's a kop-out), but also less efficient and less effective arguable (bar MI6). The CIA has been a terrible evil in countries across Latin America and Africa, more so than the other two I would argue, but of course these are all relative and judgement calls.

MI6 and GCHQ are as bad - but you'd expect them to be. During the Cold War the UK had the highest concentration of spies and espionage out of any country in the world.

No, you should shy away from making unsubstantiated blanket statements... as is quickly becoming your penchant.  Without delving into the subjectivity of which is "murkier/murkiest", you don't know what these SECRET police agencies are involved in from what they're not.  The CIA, by dint of Hollywood popularity etc. is the name on most people's lips and the agency in most people's crosshairs, but what role is the Chinese MSS playing in fomenting discord in the West African countries in which the Chinese are currently engaged in economic colonialization?  Who are the mysterious masked gunmen standing guard at military installations in Crimea, who refuse to divulge their allegiances?  Definitely Russian, but soldiers? FSB?  Any other role the FSB might be playing in Kiev and the pro-Russia Eastern territories?

Chinese "economic colonialism" is happening on generally more generous terms than the previous American engagements - they're certainly no worse than American corporatism and exploitation of the past 70 years. As I mentioned in the other topic, afaik some had tattoos of the parachute regiment of Russia - they are clearly not the FSB because it'd be completely stupid to have secret service members on camera, so no idea why you'd think it's them. The FSB have been working in Ukraine for over a decade now.

I pick out the CIA specifically because they block democratic processes in the US, that was the main base of my accusation of murkiness. If you'd like to explain how the MSS or FSB has anything like the level of activity as the CIA, given their much smaller budgets, go right ahead.

1. RE: the Chinese ... that's a heck of an assertion. 

2. RE: budget comment ... are you not overlooking something someone?

3. It's probably worth noting that these guys are masked.
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline Tiresais

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 08:30:49 AM »
I should have been more specific - murkier is a relative concept. The CIA is arguably a more competent office than the FSB and MSS, meaning it's better at keeping secrets. Moreover, it appears to be able to block democratic processes within its own nation. The other bodies are not murkier relative to their government type (I get that it's a kop-out), but also less efficient and less effective arguable (bar MI6). The CIA has been a terrible evil in countries across Latin America and Africa, more so than the other two I would argue, but of course these are all relative and judgement calls.

MI6 and GCHQ are as bad - but you'd expect them to be. During the Cold War the UK had the highest concentration of spies and espionage out of any country in the world.

No, you should shy away from making unsubstantiated blanket statements... as is quickly becoming your penchant.  Without delving into the subjectivity of which is "murkier/murkiest", you don't know what these SECRET police agencies are involved in from what they're not.  The CIA, by dint of Hollywood popularity etc. is the name on most people's lips and the agency in most people's crosshairs, but what role is the Chinese MSS playing in fomenting discord in the West African countries in which the Chinese are currently engaged in economic colonialization?  Who are the mysterious masked gunmen standing guard at military installations in Crimea, who refuse to divulge their allegiances?  Definitely Russian, but soldiers? FSB?  Any other role the FSB might be playing in Kiev and the pro-Russia Eastern territories?

Chinese "economic colonialism" is happening on generally more generous terms than the previous American engagements - they're certainly no worse than American corporatism and exploitation of the past 70 years. As I mentioned in the other topic, afaik some had tattoos of the parachute regiment of Russia - they are clearly not the FSB because it'd be completely stupid to have secret service members on camera, so no idea why you'd think it's them. The FSB have been working in Ukraine for over a decade now.

I pick out the CIA specifically because they block democratic processes in the US, that was the main base of my accusation of murkiness. If you'd like to explain how the MSS or FSB has anything like the level of activity as the CIA, given their much smaller budgets, go right ahead.

1. RE: the Chinese ... that's a heck of an assertion. 

2. RE: budget comment ... are you not overlooking something someone?

3. It's probably worth noting that these guys are masked.

On the first point, check papers by the IMF and African Development Bank, who have noted the different models (such as commodities-backed loans and grants for certain infrastructural improvements).

Secondly, the budget for US Intelligent services was $45 billion, no one comes close. It's the same with their defence budget - they spend more than the majority of the world combined.

Thirdly, you don't train intelligence agents (minimum degree level education, several years specialist training) to stand around. This role will be filled by standard military personnel, the FSB are the ones agitating protesters, organising both the protests and propaganda, whilst coordinating Crimean political response and otherwise representing Russian interests in the region.

edit: if you want estimates of national security spending across the world, check SIPRI, I've used them in my research and degrees a couple times nad there's some interesting stuff there
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:43:42 AM by Tiresais »

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2014, 09:30:37 AM »
Sport is politics. South Africa was ostracised and so should Russia imo.
I only just saw this.

Why should the Russian National football team's participation in the World Cup be jeopardised because of the actions of the Russian Government ?

By this standard North Korea should have been ostracised in 2010 because they have an evil oppressive government.

Or depending on someone else's opinion the USA could be ostracised as well for actively facilitating the destabilization of many countries and waging an illegal war on Iraq.

Its all very subjective that why the most important thing is the scoreline. The best teams should play and represent the countrymen with pride regardless of how their governments are perceived.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21977
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2014, 09:59:14 AM »
[quote author=Tiresais
Chinese "economic colonialism" is happening on generally more generous terms than the previous American engagements - they're certainly no worse than American corporatism and exploitation of the past 70 years. As I mentioned in the other topic, afaik some had tattoos of the parachute regiment of Russia - they are clearly not the FSB because it'd be completely stupid to have secret service members on camera, so no idea why you'd think it's them. The FSB have been working in Ukraine for over a decade now.

I pick out the CIA specifically because they block democratic processes in the US, that was the main base of my accusation of murkiness. If you'd like to explain how the MSS or FSB has anything like the level of activity as the CIA, given their much smaller budgets, go right ahead.

"Generally more generous terms..." derisible foolishness.  If they are no worse then they are just as bad.

I'm not sure how you could see "tattoos" on the arms of the armed men when they are covered from head to toe to specifically avoid any such identifying marks.  Because they are covered from head to toe, it matters not whether they are on camera or not.  I don't know that they ARE FSB... but similarly you don't know that they are NOT... that is the point being made.

You claim the CIA blocks "democratic processes"... such as?  How is this any different from the MSS or FSB assassinating political opponents of the government or arresting newspaper editors and jailing dissenters?  Or are those not the kind of "democratic processes" you had in mind?

EDIT:   I suppose now would not be a time to mention Mossad in the "murkiness" discussion.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:14:52 AM by Bakes »

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 10:21:03 AM »
RE: TIRESAIS

I'm going to restart here in the interest of clarity ...

1. You made a comment about "blocking democratic processes" ... I have no comment regarding your assertion about the CIA's role domestically. What I will state is that you seem to be kicking out the door the various actions of the Russian security apparatus within its domestic environment ... where there is an absence of democratic safeguards.

2. The final decision on expenditure rests with VP. Moscow has been willing to prioritize security and national interest concerns even if it means compromising other aspects of the macroeconomic picture. As such, my comment is ... don't be seduced by raw numbers. Effect and the willingness to act matter.

3. RE: the masked men. My point is that you should not discount that intelligence assets are present in a masked capacity. It would be silly to do so. Bakes can fend for himself, but the element of his comment regarding ("Definitely Russian, but soldiers? FSB?") raised an eyebrow out of some of the considerations you mentioned. NONETHELESS, it's open knowledge that Russia's border agency was subsumed within the FSB ... so perhaps that element of the overall point stands ... especially since this military activity is sophisticated and coordinated. 

4. There is IMV nothing benign about Chinese economic activity in Africa, so I'm a bit hesitant to compare the "generosity" of foreign actor intervention on the continent (caveat: although the Korean approach needs further assessment). It's amusing that you single out the US, and make no mention of the more penetrative "engagements" of European nations.   
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:22:53 AM by asylumseeker »
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 15916
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Brazil 2014 World Cup Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 10:36:21 AM »
Sport is politics. South Africa was ostracised and so should Russia imo.
I only just saw this.

Why should the Russian National football team's participation in the World Cup be jeopardised because of the actions of the Russian Government ?

By this standard North Korea should have been ostracised in 2010 because they have an evil oppressive government.

Or depending on someone else's opinion the USA could be ostracised as well for actively facilitating the destabilization of many countries and waging an illegal war on Iraq.

Its all very subjective that why the most important thing is the scoreline. The best teams should play and represent the countrymen with pride regardless of how their governments are perceived.

Clearly, this is the ideal. However, is this pragmatic? It's a longstanding challenging question.

I was going to leave the original comment alone, but you approach this from an interesting angle. It immediately brought to mind the various participations of North Korea's youth age group team's in recent junior WC competitions. It's well-documented that players can improve their social condition by playing and "being good". From that view, ultimate WC participation brings benefits to individuals (as distinct from the "regime"). Alternatively, some ppl would say they are tacit collaborators and that it doesn't bring benefit to their families etc. and that the regime benefits on the back of coercion etc. If we make comparisons between how some ppl are said to be treated in sweatshops run/even proximately by apparel manufacturers ... with mistreatment by political regimes ... should opposition and sanctions vary in effect?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:38:01 AM by asylumseeker »
"It is not possible to make successful policy in a state of ignorance or indifference to what goes on in the real world." --- Martin Daly.