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socafighter

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When Genocide is Permissible ....
« on: August 01, 2014, 01:54:56 PM »
When Genocide is Permissible   AUGUST 1, 2014


Yochanan Gordon
Yochanan's father founded the Five Towns Jewish Times. Much of Yochana's inspiration in the field of writing stems from his … [More]


Judging by the numbers of casualties on both sides in this almost one-month old war one would be led to the conclusion that Israel has resorted to disproportionate means in fighting a far less- capable enemy. That is as far as what meets the eye. But, it’s now obvious that the US and the UN are completely out of touch with the nature of this foe and are therefore not qualified to dictate or enforce the rules of this war – because when it comes to terror there is much more than meets the eye.

I wasn’t aware of this, but it seems that the nature of warfare has undergone a major shift over the years. Where wars were usually waged to defeat the opposing side, today it seems – and judging by the number of foul calls it would indicate – that today’s wars are fought to a draw. I mean, whoever heard of a timeout in war? An NBA Basketball game allows six timeouts for each team during the course of a game, but last I checked this is a war! We are at war with an enemy whose charter calls for the annihilation of our people. Nothing, then, can be considered disproportionate when we are fighting for our very right to live.

The sad reality is that Israel gets it, but its hands are being tied by world leaders who over the past six years have insisted they are such good friends with the Jewish state, that they know more regarding its interests than even they do. But there’s going to have to come a time where Israel feels threatened enough where it has no other choice but to defy international warnings – because this is life or death.

Most of the reports coming from Gazan officials and leaders since the start of this operation have been either largely exaggerated or patently false. The truth is, it’s not their fault, falsehood and deceit is part of the very fabric of who they are and that will never change. Still however, despite their propensity to lie, when your enemy tells you that they are bent on your destruction you believe them. Similarly, when Khaled Meshal declares that no physical damage to Gaza will dampen their morale or weaken their resolve – they have to be believed. Our sage Gedalia the son of Achikam was given intelligence that Yishmael Ben Nesanyah was plotting to kill him. However, in his piety or rather naiveté Gedalia dismissed the report as a random act of gossip and paid no attention to it. To this day, the day following Rosh Hashana is commemorated as a fast day in the memory of Gedalia who was killed in cold blood on the second day of Rosh Hashana during the meal. They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over. History is there to teach us lessons and the lesson here is that when your enemy swears to destroy you – you take him seriously.

Hamas has stated forthrightly that it idealizes death as much as Israel celebrates life. What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?

News anchors such as those from CNN, BBC and Al-Jazeera have not missed an opportunity to point out the majority of innocent civilians who have lost their lives as a result of this war. But anyone who lives with rocket launchers installed or terror tunnels burrowed in or around the vicinity of their home cannot be considered an innocent civilian. If you’ll counter, that Hamas has been seen abusing civilians who have attempted to leave their homes in response to Israeli warnings to leave – well then, your beginning to come to terms with the nature of this enemy which should automatically cause the rules of standard warfare to be suspended.
Everyone agrees that Israel has the right to defend itself as well as the right to exercise that right. Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has declared it, Obama and Kerry have clearly stated that no one could be expected to sit idle as thousands of rockets rain down on the heads of its citizens, placing them in clear and present danger. It seems then that the only point of contention is regarding the measure of punishment meted out in this situation.

I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?


socafighter

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 01:56:35 PM »
Israeli Professor: Rape Hamas Militants' Mothers and Sisters to Deter Terrorist Attacks
By Gianluca Mezzofiore
July 22, 2014 17:14 BST

An Israeli academic has claimed that raping wives and mothers of Palestinian Hamas militants is the only thing that could deter further terrorist attacks.

The remarks by renowned Middle East scholar Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University were made three weeks ago after the grim discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped Israeli teenagers, but the recording was published online (in Hebrew) on Monday.

"The only thing that could deter a suicide bomber is knowing that if caught, his sister or his mother would be raped," said Kedar on Israel Radio Bet

"It sounds very bad, but that's the Middle East," he continued. "You have to understand the culture in which we live. The only thing that deters [Hamas leaders] is a threat to the connection between their heads and their shoulders."

To the shocked radio presenter who said that "we cannot take such steps, of course", Kedar replied:

"I'm not talking about what we should or shouldn't do. I'm talking about the facts. The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped. That's all. That's the only thing that will bring him back home, in order to preserve his sister's honor."

Kedar served for 25 years in the military intelligence, where he specialised in Islamic groups. He is currently a researcher at the right-wing Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic Studies of Bar Ilan but previously worked for a shadowy organisation, the Israel Academia Monitor, which fights left-leaning academic professors.

Kedar's words triggered an angered reaction among feminist activists in Israel, who sent a letter to the University president Rabbi Prof. Daniel Hershkowitz in which they condemn Kedar's "words of incitement that grant legitimacy to Israel Defense Forces soldiers and Israeli civilians to commit rape, and endanger both Israeli and Palestinian women.

"Kedar's words echo expressions that treat rape as a remedial practice, although it is a war crime."



socafighter

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 02:00:22 PM »
Gaza Strip: 'Funding Israel is like Sending Money to the Klan' Producer Says Brian Eno
By Ludovica Iaccino
August 1, 2014 17:57

English producer and musician Brian Eno has strongly criticised the US for supporting Israel in committing what he has deemed the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians in the ongoing conflict in the Gaza Strip.

Eno made the comment in an open letter, entitled Gaza and the Loss of Civilisation, published on David Byrne's website.

"Why does America continue its blind support of this one-sided exercise in ethnic cleansing? WHY? I just don't get it," he said.

"How bad does it look when the one country which more than any other grounds its identity in notions of liberty and democracy then goes and puts its money exactly where its mouth isn't and supports a ragingly racist theocracy?"

"As for the Peace Process: Israel wants the Process but not the Peace. While 'the process' is going on the settlers continue grabbing land and building their settlements... and then when the Palestinians finally erupt with their pathetic fireworks they get hammered and shredded with state-of-the-art missiles and depleted uranium shells because Israel 'has a right to defend itself' (whereas Palestine clearly doesn't)," he continued.

That is the culture our taxes are defending. It's like sending money to the Klan."

Eno's letter comes few days after the US admitted it resupplied Israel with weapons during the ongoing conflict.

IDF launched Operation Protective Edge to restore calm in southern Israel on 8 July, after more than 150 rockets were fired from Gaza into the country.

On 17 July, IDF also started a ground invasion of Gaza, aimed at destroying underground tunnels built by the Palestinian Islamist organisation Hamas .

More than 1,400 Palestinians have been killed since the operation was launched.

The UN warned Israel might be committing war crimes, as at least 70% of the Palestinians killed were civilians.

The Israeli death toll stands at 61 soldiers and one civilian. 


Offline kounty

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 05:31:43 PM »
it might be useful to note that the Us spends twice as much in military aid to israel than in spends on all of its colleges and universities combines.
Also, when you hearing about things like 'border security' every time certain US companies like Raytheon
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-23/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-in-line-for-tripled-u-s-aid.html

always seem in line for a billion or two.
What God you think Babylon serve? Baal for sure!

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 07:04:56 PM »
it might be useful to note that the Us spends twice as much in military aid to israel than in spends on all of its colleges and universities combines.
Also, when you hearing about things like 'border security' every time certain US companies like Raytheon
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-23/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-in-line-for-tripled-u-s-aid.html

always seem in line for a billion or two.
What God you think Babylon serve? Baal for sure!

haha
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 05:34:45 AM »
it might be useful to note that the Us spends twice as much in military aid to israel than in spends on all of its colleges and universities combines.
Also, when you hearing about things like 'border security' every time certain US companies like Raytheon
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-23/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-in-line-for-tripled-u-s-aid.html

always seem in line for a billion or two.
What God you think Babylon serve? Baal for sure!

Well given just how much power the Christian right in America has, and how a lot of Israel's support comes from hard-core Christians, I'd look a little closer to home :p

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 09:21:57 AM »
it might be useful to note that the Us spends twice as much in military aid to israel than in spends on all of its colleges and universities combines.
Also, when you hearing about things like 'border security' every time certain US companies like Raytheon
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-23/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-in-line-for-tripled-u-s-aid.html

always seem in line for a billion or two.
What God you think Babylon serve? Baal for sure!

Well given just how much power the Christian right in America has, and how a lot of Israel's support comes from hard-core Christians, I'd look a little closer to home :p

Nice try, but Israel's support comes from AIPAC and their influence over congress.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 11:54:13 AM »
it might be useful to note that the Us spends twice as much in military aid to israel than in spends on all of its colleges and universities combines.
Also, when you hearing about things like 'border security' every time certain US companies like Raytheon
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-23/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-in-line-for-tripled-u-s-aid.html

always seem in line for a billion or two.
What God you think Babylon serve? Baal for sure!

Well given just how much power the Christian right in America has, and how a lot of Israel's support comes from hard-core Christians, I'd look a little closer to home :p

Nice try, but Israel's support comes from AIPAC and their influence over congress.

Sadly not - the right-wing Christian movement strongly supports Israeli independence for the same reasons I've given before - the God of the Bible makes it pretty clear the Jews are his chosen people. As I mentioned previously, some believe that the return of Jews to Israel is necessary for Jesus to return and thus actively promote the Israeli state's interests as their own. Hell there's even a Christian Zionist movement lol - they had some particularly important supporters like televangelist Jerry Falwell (whom Ronald Reagan famously took advice from) and more recently Pat Robinson. "Pilgrimages" or religious vacations are also a source of income for Israel - Christians from all over the world but mostly Aemrica going to Israel to work on a farm or some other randomness.

As you can see from the Republican and Tea party's relationship with them, the Christian right-wing are a very powerful force in American politics, and they overwhelmingly support Israel.

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 08:15:18 PM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 08:17:02 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 03:23:14 AM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.

Toppa, you're being incredibly defensive, possibly you're not a follower of American politics. Since you care not what I say I suggest you go research it - clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Again, if you haven't read your bible it's not as if I can make you - I suggest you take your obligations a bit more seriously.

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 07:30:05 AM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.

Toppa, you're being incredibly defensive, possibly you're not a follower of American politics. Since you care not what I say I suggest you go research it - clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Again, if you haven't read your bible it's not as if I can make you - I suggest you take your obligations a bit more seriously.


Why would I be defensive? I am not a right wing Christian, whatever that means. Your ignorance is just a little tiresome.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 11:04:41 AM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.

Toppa, you're being incredibly defensive, possibly you're not a follower of American politics. Since you care not what I say I suggest you go research it - clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Again, if you haven't read your bible it's not as if I can make you - I suggest you take your obligations a bit more seriously.


Why would I be defensive? I am not a right wing Christian, whatever that means. Your ignorance is just a little tiresome.

Toppa I encourage you to do some fact-checking before you claim ignorance on my part. Go ahead, the internet never sleeps :p

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 12:18:59 PM »
clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Toppa you are right and he is also right with the right-wing Christian thing.
He forgot to add the words 'white' and 'neo-con' though lol.
I don't think these people realize there is a difference between a Jew and a Christian, but they will defend Jews cause the Bible say so (talk bout pot calling kettle black when it comes to religious fanatism lol).
Bible make a reference to Iron Dome..guess what they name the missile defence system after? lol

Some people intent on seeing whatever prophecy fulfilled and cant wait for the coming of Christ steups.
Me personally ent care about this religious nonsense, Christ could come on a unicorn or in a spaceship...big deal.

If you follow the Republican media, they're still saying Obama not doing enough to help Israel lol
The Liberal media saying Israel over doing it.

So who really running the country and calling the shots?
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Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 02:17:03 PM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.

Toppa, you're being incredibly defensive, possibly you're not a follower of American politics. Since you care not what I say I suggest you go research it - clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Again, if you haven't read your bible it's not as if I can make you - I suggest you take your obligations a bit more seriously.


Why would I be defensive? I am not a right wing Christian, whatever that means. Your ignorance is just a little tiresome.

Toppa I encourage you to do some fact-checking before you claim ignorance on my part. Go ahead, the internet never sleeps :p

Umm you are ignorant, especially when it comes to matters of the Bible or religious scriptures, like the nonsense you were talking in the other thread regarding the creation of the state of Israel. Israel was set up as a secular state on the power of the UN mandate. There was not even any mention of "God".


The book Great Moments in Jewish History says this of the final text: “Even at 1:00 P.M. when the National Council met, its members could not agree about the wording of the proclamation of statehood. . . . Observant Jews wanted a reference to ‘the God of Israel.’ Secularists balked. Compromising, Ben-Gurion decided that the word ‘Rock’ would appear instead of ‘God.’”

In fact, as I showed you when you wrote that nonsense in the other thread, Jews who observe the commands of the Torah reject the notion of a Jewish state, claiming that it goes against what is written in the Torah. So you clearly don't know as much as you think you do. Stop being clever by half.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 03:16:29 PM »
Dude, please stop talking nonsense. I guess you're so focused on making cheap digs at "religion" that it blinds you to certain facts - that's the only reason you can say schupidness like the above. If you really believe that Israel's support and political clout comes from right-wing Christian groups and not AIPAC, then you are a fool.

I won't even bother to address (and prove wrong) the bollocks you wrote about what the "God of the Bible" says. Clearly you can add nothing meaningful to the Israel-Palestine issue.

Toppa, you're being incredibly defensive, possibly you're not a follower of American politics. Since you care not what I say I suggest you go research it - clearly AIPAC are a major player as I've noted in the past, but Right-wing Christians are at teh forefront of promoting Israeli interest and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge.

Again, if you haven't read your bible it's not as if I can make you - I suggest you take your obligations a bit more seriously.


Why would I be defensive? I am not a right wing Christian, whatever that means. Your ignorance is just a little tiresome.

Toppa I encourage you to do some fact-checking before you claim ignorance on my part. Go ahead, the internet never sleeps :p

Umm you are ignorant, especially when it comes to matters of the Bible or religious scriptures, like the nonsense you were talking in the other thread regarding the creation of the state of Israel. Israel was set up as a secular state on the power of the UN mandate. There was not even any mention of "God".


The book Great Moments in Jewish History says this of the final text: “Even at 1:00 P.M. when the National Council met, its members could not agree about the wording of the proclamation of statehood. . . . Observant Jews wanted a reference to ‘the God of Israel.’ Secularists balked. Compromising, Ben-Gurion decided that the word ‘Rock’ would appear instead of ‘God.’”

In fact, as I showed you when you wrote that nonsense in the other thread, Jews who observe the commands of the Torah reject the notion of a Jewish state, claiming that it goes against what is written in the Torah. So you clearly don't know as much as you think you do. Stop being clever by half.

Toppa I dont want a major fight here, but you are being selective. "Jews who observe the the commands of the Torah..." is plain wrong - different Jews interpret it differently just as Christians differ over interpretation. It's pure folly to argue that Zionism isn't a movement heavily influenced by orthodox Judaism, and whilst there were early arguments for a "home state" elsewhere, the selection of the "holy lands" is hugely symbolic in that regard. Some Jews believe the Holocaust was a punishment for being so dispersed, for example.

Moreover, Israel wasn't created by UN mandate, it was created by guerilla war against the British imperial forces in Palestine and a complex web of Zionism predating the First World War. The UN Mandate simply gave Britain an easy way out of the situation that we had already cowardly withdrawn from in 1947, and that drew on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which of course cared not for the local Palestinians. Moreover, I don't remember arguing that Israel wasn't secular, their secular or lack of secular nation is probably irrelevant to our discussion - America is secular in constitution but hardly so in action in a number of important respects. I'm actually struggling to see it's relevance here.

But again you have yet to read your Bible, possibly because you out-right disbelieve me and distrust my word. In that respect, I'd argue I've never been dishonest in my dealings on the forum and I'd encourage you to seek out your priest or pastor if you lack trust in me. Alternatively, Acts and Romans of the New Testament, and pretty much every book of the Old Testament (naturally) make it clear that the Jews are the chosen people (why otherwise send his only son to be a Jew, or found the church as a sect of Judaism, or indeed have early founders, followers and priests as Jews?).

Consequently, the right-wing Christian views of Judaism are incredibly complex as far as I've seen - on the one hand they clearly hold a special place for the God of the bible, on the other hand the Gospel of Mark pins the blame on them (as opposed to the other Gospels, who vary in blame between the Jews and the Romans for his crucifixion, although your original sin requires his crucifixion, so you should be grateful in a way). Thus, some groups manage to combine Pro-Israeli arguments with anti-semitism, ostensibly because they believe the Jews are fulfilling prophecy, and that when all Jews are converted to Christianity then the Rapture/end times will begin.

Anyway, possibly you've not been following American politics as closely as I have over the past decade, in which case it's a forgiveable . But don't make another - the Right-Wing support Israeli independence to the hilt.

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2014, 03:49:53 PM »
 :rotfl: Fortunately for you, I am at work and responding from my mobile phone. But maybe I'll respond later. And fyi...I don't have a priest or a pastor, and I assure you, I know much more about the Bible than you do. Lol @ you referencing Romans and Acts. Can't wait. ..
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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2014, 07:40:06 PM »
Theodor Herzl - The father of Zionism, in his book - The Jewish State:

"The idea I have developed in this pamphlet is an ancient one: It is the restoration of the Jewish State ..."

"The decisive factor is our propelling force. And what is that force? The plight of the Jews. ... I am profoundly convinced that I am right, though I doubt whether I shall live to see myself proved so. Those who today inaugurate this movement are unlikely to live to see its glorious culmination. But the very inauguration is enough to inspire in them a high pride and the joy of an inner liberation of their existence ..."

"The plan would seem mad enough if a single individual were to undertake it; but if many Jews simultaneously agree on it, it is entirely reasonable, and its achievement presents no difficulties worth mentioning. The idea depends only on the number of its adherents. Perhaps our ambitious young men, to whom every road of advancement is now closed, and for whom the Jewish state throws open a bright prospect of freedom, happiness, and honor, perhaps they will see to it that this idea is spread ..."

"It depends on the Jews themselves whether this political document remains for the present a political romance. If this generation is too dull to understand it rightly, a future, finer, more advanced generation will arise to comprehend it. The Jews who will try it shall achieve their State; and they will deserve it ..."

"I consider the Jewish question neither a social nor a religious one, even though it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, and to solve it we must first of all establish it as an international political problem to be discussed and settled by the civilized nations of the world in council.

"We are a people—one people.

"We have sincerely tried everywhere to merge with the national communities in which we live, seeking only to preserve the faith of our fathers. It is not permitted us. In vain are we loyal patriots, sometimes superloyal; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow citizens; in vain do we strive to enhance the fame of our native lands in the arts and sciences, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In our native lands where we have lived for centuries we are still decried as aliens, often by men whose ancestors had not yet come at a time when Jewish sighs had long been heard in the country ..."

"Oppression and persecution cannot exterminate us. No nation on earth has endured such struggles and sufferings as we have. Jew-baiting has merely winnowed out our weaklings; the strong among us defiantly return to their own whenever persecution breaks out ..."

"Wherever we remain politically secure for any length of time, we assimilate. I think this is not praiseworthy ..."

"Israel is our unforgettable historic homeland ..."

"Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who will it shall achieve their State. We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and in our own homes peacefully die. The world will be liberated by our freedom, enriched by our wealth, magnified by our greatness. And whatever we attempt there for our own benefit will redound mightily and beneficially to the good of all mankind."


It is of note that little mention was made of religion except to say that the Jewish question was not a question of religion. This added to clear opposition Zionists received by the established Jewry who considered their objectives as a rebellion against God makes it clear that the establishment of the State of Israel had little to do with what is written in the Torah (or Bible).

Funny that you would mention Romans and Acts (without quoting the exact scriptures I might add) - when these books (and others) of the Bible directly contradict your claims. And then you have the audacity to tell me I never read the Bible? Have YOU? lol

The prophet Hosea foretold the rejection of natural Israel in place of the spiritual Israel which included gentiles.

Hosea 2:23 I will sow her like seed for myself in the earth, And I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy; I will say to those not my people:* “You are my people,”And they will say: “You are my God.”’”

Romans 9:22-25 What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? 23 And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? 25 It is as he says also in Ho·se′a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not loved, ‘beloved’;

Matt 21:43
This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

Isa 10:21-22
Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return. An extermination has been decided on, And justice* will engulf them.


Rom 9:27
Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Rom 11:17-24
However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward* the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward* them, remember that it is not you who bears the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

Gal 3:28, 29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

Rom 9:6
However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”

Rom 2:28,29
For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.

Acts 15:14
Sym′e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

1Pet 2:10
For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 07:46:52 PM by Toppa »
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 02:23:36 AM »
Again, the secularity or lack thereof of Israel is irrelevant to our points - you've not addressed my other points - even if I accepted all of your points here you have not addressed the widespread support Israel receives from the Right-Wing Christian movements in the US.

I was lazy in not quoting scripture, so I'll do so now. Romans especially is the main one here (and the one I can be motivated to read in full once again for you), as Paul spends most of the chapter referring to Jews in his preaching (and an inordinate amount of time on circumcision, but each to their own).

Romans 3:1-2
Quote
God’s Faithfulness
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

Paul's expressing a particular understanding that the Jews form an important part of Christianity - indeed Jesus was supposed to fulfil the messianic prophecy of the Jews after all, a prophecy that comes from the Torah. Later on he makes it clearer;

Romans 9:1-5
Quote
Paul’s Anguish Over Israel
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—
2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,
4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!
[a] Amen.

Your quote from Romans is ironically (given our relative positions) slightly out of context, here's the other sentence you're missing;

Romans 9:26-28
Quote
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

27 “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

This passage reads slightly different in other translations, and is a retreading of Isiah 10:20-26 that gives more context;

Quote
The Remnant of Israel
20 In that day the remnant of Israel,
    the survivors of Jacob,
will no longer rely on him
    who struck them down
but will truly rely on the Lord,
    the Holy One of Israel.
21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob
    will return to the Mighty God.
22 Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel,
    only a remnant will return.
Destruction has been decreed,
    overwhelming and righteous.
23 The Lord, the Lord Almighty, will carry out
    the destruction decreed upon the whole land.

24 Therefore this is what the Lord, the Lord Almighty, says:

“My people who live in Zion,
    do not be afraid of the Assyrians,
who beat you with a rod
    and lift up a club against you, as Egypt did.
25 Very soon my anger against you will end
    and my wrath will be directed to their destruction.”

This is the context missed if you only read Romans - this anger is temporal, ending, and shifted towards the Assyrians. Moreover, that Remnant will be received by God, implying at least to me they will be received well. These passages alone are perhaps enough for a number of Christians to justify the existence of Israel, but Paul continues further;

Romans 10:1-4
Quote
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

All of Romans 11 is pertinent to our discussion, so I'll highlight the main passages;

Romans 11:1-6
Quote
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?
4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:11-12
Quote
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Romans 11:25-32
Quote
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

And Finally;

Romans 15:23-33
Quote
23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to visit you,
24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to see you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while.
25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.
26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem.
27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way.
29 I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.

30 I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.
31 Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea and that the contribution I take to Jerusalem may be favorably received by the Lord’s people there,
32 so that I may come to you with joy, by God’s will, and in your company be refreshed.
33 The God of peace be with you all. Amen.

This last passage can be considered an interesting justification for those taking religious holidays to work on the farms of Israelites - heeding the call for Gentiles to "give back" to the Jews with "material blessings".

Hopefully we can agree that there is certainly justification for protecting the state of Israel in the Bible now? There are a number of other justifications (some argue the state of Israel is fulfilling prophecy, for example), but this is more than enough to justify my main points. Please give your bible quotes more context, as with your quotes from Romans (and I find this funny to say as an Atheist) you have divorced them from the context and thus give a misleading impression of them. This would be consistent with someone googling passages, rather than having read the bible.

Offline ribbit

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2014, 10:08:51 AM »
tiresais, what do you mean by "right-wing christians"? most religious organizations in the states are considered right-wing compared to the rest of the population; right-wing is a bit redundant. do you mean evangelicals?

The article in the first post was yanked by the Times of Israel and the blogger was kicked out. However, it probably still obfuscated the facts - that the casualties were overwhelmingly civilians including several hundred children. When infanticide is permissible?

What is Israel's long-term plan? I wonder if the "Jewish state" that some are striving for is a utopia as far away as the Socialist paradise that the last generation saw founder? Why isn't a nation of Israelis rather than Jews good enough?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 05:07:28 PM by ribbit »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 01:51:08 AM »
tiresais, what do you mean by "right-wing christians"? most religious organizations in the states are considered right-wing compared to the rest of the population; right-wing is a bit redundant. do you mean evangelicals?


It's not exclusively evangelicals or indeed any specific denomination - RWC encapsulates those who self-identify and organised politically as Christians (in whichever denomination) and lobby for change in that direction. It can encapsulate Catholics and Evangelicals, with prominant ones such as Southern Baptists. Non-Right Wing Christians would be those Christians who fall in the Centre or the Left politically, and can be as diverse as Communist, Socialist, or even Republican if they fall on the left-side of their party. I'm not sure I'd agree that most religious organisations are right-wing (couldn't say tbh), but I can say for sure there are significant non-right wing churches and religious movements - Americans United for Separation of Church and State has a Rabbi and Reverend on their board of trustees, for example.

The term is more meaningful than it's counter-term simply because of its political presence - people who follow American politics will often know what's implied by this - anti-gay, anti-abortion and pro-Israel, with a lack of respect for the separation of Church and State in the USA.

Offline Toppa

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 05:19:21 PM »
*sigh*

No-one if disputing that the Jews for a very long time were God's chosen people because of the promise made to Abraham - by your seed many will be blessed - prophecying the coming of the Messiah and the forgiveness of sins. However, when they Jews (not including the apostles and first disciples) rejected Jesus, God's kingdom was taken away from them as shown in Matthew (as well as those other scriptures) and gentiles were now included in those foretold blessings.

So NO, try as you might you cannot blame the Bible for what is happening today between Israel and Palestine so stop making yourself sound so unintelligent with your cheap and petty barbs.

Oh and I guess you know better than Ben Gurion what the basis for the declaration of the State of Israel was, right? He said it was the UN mandate, but of course you know better. Ok dude. Take win.
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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 07:05:35 PM »
First off fellas, remember your history ey.  First Israel wanted they could wipe out ALL those militant states around the ALL.  Remember the 7 Day war?  There military ain't no joke.  Yet they staying very chill playing tit for tat year after year.  If it was US, China, Russia or Britain in Israels shoes there will not be a crisis.  I give Israel credit for restraint they have plenty September 11th to go on a rampage for. 
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2014, 01:33:51 AM »
*sigh*

No-one if disputing that the Jews for a very long time were God's chosen people because of the promise made to Abraham - by your seed many will be blessed - prophecying the coming of the Messiah and the forgiveness of sins. However, when they Jews (not including the apostles and first disciples) rejected Jesus, God's kingdom was taken away from them as shown in Matthew (as well as those other scriptures) and gentiles were now included in those foretold blessings.

So NO, try as you might you cannot blame the Bible for what is happening today between Israel and Palestine so stop making yourself sound so unintelligent with your cheap and petty barbs.

Oh and I guess you know better than Ben Gurion what the basis for the declaration of the State of Israel was, right? He said it was the UN mandate, but of course you know better. Ok dude. Take win.

Look I showed you one of the chapters in which those RWC use the Bible to justify their support for Israel - obviously you don't agree with the passage, but surely you're not denying that the interpretation exists? The Bible is a book if wide-ranging interpretation, and a significant group of Christians in America interpret it to say that Christians have a responsibility to support and ultimately convert Jews. Paul clearly felt this way, and Paul is known to a fair degree of certainty to have written Romans, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians,  Philippans and Philemon - he's a major writer of the Bible and authorship is these particular passages is much more certain than the Gospel of Matthew (which is typically thought of a combination of Mark, the Q document, and writings of another author).

Anyway, the Christian Broadcast News posts this type of thing all the time, just yesterday they posted this; We Support You: CUFA Visits Israels Rocket Town The first two paragraphs as followed;

Quote
Christians are among the strongest backers of Israel. Recently, a high profile visit by Christian leaders from the U.S. demonstrated that support.

Christians United for Israel, known as CUFI, brought a group of 50 pastors and Christians leaders from every state in the nation and the District of Columbia to Israel.

Tbh I'm not sure what your position is any more - you initially argued that Israel's support comes entirely from AIPAC, which is just a false assertion and I pointed this out. We then progressed to where the Biblical justification for this is, for which I went through Romans to show you one of the sources of this justification for some Christians. Then you accuse me of "cheap and petty barbs" when I quote scripture to you? Toppa what's your position? That there's absolutely no way the Bible could be used by Christians to justify supporting Israel? Or that it doesn't happen? Or that Christians are not supporter of Israel and don't have political influence to that effect?

And on Ben Gurion, no I don't consider him a reliable source of information - he's a hard-core zionist lol. The origin of Israel goes much further back than that, and partisan/insurgent activity by Jews living in Palestine goes back at least a decade. As I mentioned in my previous post;

Quote
The UN Mandate simply gave Britain an easy way out of the situation that we had already cowardly withdrawn from in 1947, and that drew on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which of course cared not for the local Palestinians.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2014, 01:40:55 AM »
First off fellas, remember your history ey.  First Israel wanted they could wipe out ALL those militant states around the ALL.  Remember the 7 Day war?  There military ain't no joke.  Yet they staying very chill playing tit for tat year after year.  If it was US, China, Russia or Britain in Israels shoes there will not be a crisis.  I give Israel credit for restraint they have plenty September 11th to go on a rampage for.

Israel doesn't have the military capacity to take on all the Arab states in an offensive war - if America can't take on Iraq successfully how of you feel Israel would fair? They're set up for pre-eminent strikes, which is what happened in the six-day war - Israel at it's thinnest is only a couple miles wide, meaning they have no opportunity to defend in depth - the second an enemy army breaks the boarder they've lost half their country.

Israel's "restraint" has killed nearly 400 children and at least 1200 civilians in total. I suggest your definition of "restraint" is a poor one. 

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2014, 09:08:40 PM »
Israel doesn't have the military capacity to take on all the Arab states in an offensive war - if America can't take on Iraq successfully how of you feel Israel would fair?

Come on man...that's a totally different kettle of fish
USA went to Iraq on peacekeeping or whatever u want to call it ;) .If the USA wanted to destroy Iraq they easily could, same with Israel over their neighbors.
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 02:17:02 AM »
Israel doesn't have the military capacity to take on all the Arab states in an offensive war - if America can't take on Iraq successfully how of you feel Israel would fair?

Come on man...that's a totally different kettle of fish
USA went to Iraq on peacekeeping or whatever u want to call it ;) .If the USA wanted to destroy Iraq they easily could, same with Israel over their neighbors.

Define "destroy" - remember we're talking about them taking on all their neighbours simultaneously.

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Re: When Genocide is Permissible ....
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 06:44:48 AM »
Israel doesn't have the military capacity to take on all the Arab states in an offensive war - if America can't take on Iraq successfully how of you feel Israel would fair?

Come on man...that's a totally different kettle of fish
USA went to Iraq on peacekeeping or whatever u want to call it ;) .If the USA wanted to destroy Iraq they easily could, same with Israel over their neighbors.
if u are talking "heavy" bombs......no nuclear power "in their right minds" sees that as a viable option...not even Israel...
I pity the fool....