Author Topic: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T  (Read 8153 times)

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Offline Socapro

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This issue is the most important issue in recent years that could affect the future of T&T as democracy and will not go away now that the bill has been insanely passed by our lower and upper houses without the consent of the majority of T&T citizens who care about our future as a democracy.

With that in mind please post the latest news and discussions on this important issue affecting our future as proud free Trinbagonians to this thread.

ILP files constitutional motion: ‘Citizens’ rights breached’
By Kejan Haynes Multimedia Reporter (T&T Express)
Story Created:    Aug 29, 2014 at 10:33 PM ECT


The Independent Liberal Party (ILP) is now the first group to take the Government to court over the controversial Constitution (Amendment) Bill 2014. The bill was passed in the Senate on Thursday night after three days of debate.

“At around two this afternoon (yesterday), we would have filed a constitutional motion, a fixed-date claim form accompanied by two affidavits, in which we sought certain relief from the courts,” said ILP deputy political leader Rekha Ramjit. She is also lead attorney for this matter.

The ILP argued the amendments to the Constitution brought by the bill are in contravention of certain fundamental rights and freedoms of the people.

The ILP is asking the court to declare the provisions of Section 8 of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill which seek to amend Section 73 (the System of Balloting) of the Constitution are likely to abrogate the provisions of Sections 4 and 5 of the Constitution, which deal with the recognition, declaration and protection of rights and freedoms of citizens.

Ramjit said Section 8 of the bill breaches the fundamental right of citizens as an elector and also the right of citizens who wish to be a candidate in the general election.

It will be served on the Attorney General.

The ILP is citing Sections 13.1 and Section 54 of the Constitution, which say any law which infringes on the fundamental rights of citizens must be done with reasonable justification and passed by a three-fifths majority of all 41 members of the House.

Ramjit is also arguing the Constitution (Amendment) Bill contravenes the right of freedom of political association and political expression.

They say the vote on election day is the ultimate form of political expression and with a candidate being eliminated in one round takes away that right.

“The right to vote is a fundamental right and the interference with that is what we’re saying,” Ramjit said.

They’re also arguing the new bill contravenes Section 73 of the Constitution which deals with the way MPs are elected. With the new provisions agreed to in the committee stage of the Senate, if two candidates are in the run-off one person must have more than 50 per cent of the vote to enter the House of Representatives. But if there were three candidates in the run-off, a candidate doesn’t need that 50 per cent.

“[It] is inequality of treatment of the candidates in one general election who are both citizens of Trinidad and Tobago. And who have met all the requirements,” Ramjit said.

“It’s the first elections you have to vote, and then get the results with a calculator,” ILP Chairman Jack Warner interjected.”

Meanwhile, ILP Political Leader Lyndira Oudit is calling on President Anthony Carmona to refrain from assenting to the Constitution (Amendment) Bill 2014 when it reaches his desk.

Before the bill becomes law, it first has to go back to the Lower House and then to the President to be assented to.

Oudit said the President has the power under Section 51 of the Constitution to decline. However, she said even though there is no precedent for this happening, the highest precedent in the land is the law itself. She sought to remind President Carmona he once told the public he has powers people may not even know he has.

“We are officially calling on the President to look at what is taking place,” Oudit said. “And we have to take it to the executive, but are prepared to write to the President insomuch as asking for him to not assent to this.”
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:39:53 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2014, 02:21:23 PM »
watch how yuh thread will get merge soon by the mods  :D

Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2014, 02:27:44 PM »
watch how yuh thread will get merge soon by the mods  :D

There is no thread specifically on this topic so I don't see why this thread should be merged into any other.
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2014, 02:32:29 PM »
ok Socapro ah hear yuh, let me add to yuh thread.

Quote
Vieira on reform bill: Most controversial law in T&T history

Debate went into a third consecutive day yesterday as senators used the maximum allotted time—one hour—to speak in favour or against it. Vieira said he had to pray about what he was going to say in the debate as his vote would be based on his conscience and would not be in favour or against any political party.

“But what is also without doubt is that whichever way I vote, somebody is not going to be happy about it,” he said. Vieira said he wondered whether that was the point in which the seeds were sown “for lines of division are deepened,” or will it be the time when the nation will rise above the many differences.

He said while the proposals were simple, “they did not lend themselves to knee-jerk reaction,” as “the devil is in the details.” In agreeing that only a simple majority was needed for the bill to be approved, Vieira said there was a significant difference between what the letter of the law allowed and what the spirit of the law requires.

For the law to be legitimate, Vieira said, there should be overall support for it. According to Vieira, the legislation forced citizens to consider whether the runoff measure was intended to favour the PP Government in the next general election or whether it would positively or negatively influence the electoral system.

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-08-29/vieira-reform-bill-most-controversial-law-tt-history



socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2014, 02:36:01 PM »
Simply put ...

The individual made promises on her Election trail .

She won the election...

She is keeping her promises .

She has the votes in Parliament to make changes . If one hates any laws passed get her
replaced at the next election and repeal these laws ..see how simple it can be.

Only the citizens who are allowed to vote can make changes to these amendments
in their electoral district as stated  ,it will get the electorate involved , democracy  ...I fail to see why the hissy fit .

Why scare the electorate ..lets see democracy in progress before we join any group
of hissy fitters .

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:39:09 PM by socafighter »

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2014, 02:36:25 PM »
a lot of people say it go backfire not just James

Quote

Bill will backfire on Govt—James


Noting that if no candidate received the 50 per cent majority vote in the runoff, the candidate with the highest percentage of votes will be declared the eventual winner, James said: “That would be electing a minority winner, which was the exact situation the legislation was intended to change. It will takes us back to square one. “This is pointless legislation because it cannot guarantee that a candidate will be elected MP with 50 per cent of the votes cast in a constituency.”

James said the Government did not consult with the population on the measure as it was seeking its own agenda. “It was merely seeking to keep an election promise without consulting the population. It will backfire on the Government,” he insisted, saying the swing voters who determine the winner of elections will vote against the Government at the appropriate time. James said what the voters in the country also would like to know is “how does this legislation help the country or improve democracy.”


http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-08-30/bill-will-backfire-govt—james

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:40:01 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Socapro

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Bill will backfire on Govt—James
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2014, 02:45:03 PM »
Bill will backfire on Govt—James
By Richard Lord (T&T Guardian)
Published: Saturday, August 30, 2014


Political analyst Dr Winsford James says the runoff legislation which was approved in the Senate on Thursday is pointless and will backfire on the People’s Partnership Government. The bill was passed in the Upper House on Thursday night after the Government agreed to an amendment on the controversial runoff vote made by Independent Senator Dhanayshar Mahabir.

The bill had initially proposed to trigger a runoff between the top two candidates if the winning candidate in a general election did not gain at least 50 per cent of the votes.

But the amendment proposed to allow a third candidate in the runoff, where that candidate secures 25 per cent of the vote or where the third candidate obtains votes amounting to five per cent less than the second runner-up. But in the runoff featuring the three candidates, the Government agreed that the winner can receive less than 50 per cent of the votes cast.

Speaking with the T&T Guardian yesterday, James said the new legislation would in fact make it harder for the winning candidate to secure a majority vote and would also not guarantee an election victory for the incumbent government.

Noting that the legislation was amended to allow for three candidates to contest the runoff, which would take place 15 days after the original poll, James said it would be easier for one of two candidates to get the 50 per cent vote in a runoff than it is for one of three candidates. He said the amendment will make it more difficult for any one candidate to secure the required 50 per cent or more votes.

Noting that if no candidate received the 50 per cent majority vote in the runoff, the candidate with the highest percentage of votes will be declared the eventual winner, James said: “That would be electing a minority winner, which was the exact situation the legislation was intended to change. It will takes us back to square one. “This is pointless legislation because it cannot guarantee that a candidate will be elected MP with 50 per cent of the votes cast in a constituency.”

James said the Government did not consult with the population on the measure as it was seeking its own agenda. “It was merely seeking to keep an election promise without consulting the population. It will backfire on the Government,” he insisted, saying the swing voters who determine the winner of elections will vote against the Government at the appropriate time. James said what the voters in the country also would like to know is “how does this legislation help the country or improve democracy.”
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 02:45:11 PM »
Simply put ...

The individual made promises on her Election trail .

She won the election...

She is keeping her promises .

She has the votes in Parliament to make changes . If one hates any laws passed get her
replaced at the next election and repeal these laws ..see how simple it can be.

Only the citizens who are allowed to vote can make changes to these amendments
in their electoral district as stated  ,it will get the electorate involved , democracy  ...I fail to see why the hissy fit .

Why scare the electorate ..lets see democracy in progress before we join any group
of hissy fitters .


Simply put.. you are wong.  This Reform Bill in its entirety was not an election promise because the run off was not an election proposal and not in the PP manifesto.

We must be careful not to promote propaganda
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:52:10 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 02:59:13 PM »
Simply put ...

The individual made promises on her Election trail .

She won the election...

She is keeping her promises .

She has the votes in Parliament to make changes . If one hates any laws passed get her
replaced at the next election and repeal these laws ..see how simple it can be.

Only the citizens who are allowed to vote can make changes to these amendments
in their electoral district as stated  ,it will get the electorate involved , democracy  ...I fail to see why the hissy fit .

Why scare the electorate ..lets see democracy in progress before we join any group
of hissy fitters .



Simply put.. you are wong.  This Reform Bill in its entirety was not an election promise because the run off was not an election proposal and not in the PP manifesto.

We must be careful not to promote propaganda



Spot on.

Also why try to change the election system that you used to get fairly elected unless you feel doing so is to your advantage to help you stay in power. In other words try to stay in power by any means necessary and sell it to the public as trying to increase democracy when you are doing exactly the opposite.

As we speak the UNC has also been flooding the marginal constituencies with Guyanese who have been living in the country who are unfairly being given houses above more deserving T&T citizens in addition to T&T citizenship in return for their votes for the UNC at the next general elections. Most of them practice the same racists behaviour towards folks of African origin as they practiced in Guyana that has helped to destroy the progress of that country as a democracy. I don't agree with them being given T&T citizenship and houses above real T&T citizen for their votes but it has been happening under this PP led government which is increasing racial divisions in the country.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:15:29 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 03:00:22 PM »
Trinidad: Government gets support as Senate passes controversial Constitutional bill
Friday, August 29, 2014 | 7:21 AM   
Observer


PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad (CMC) – Trinidad and Tobago will celebrate its 52nd year of political independence from Britain over the weekend with the coalition People’s Partnership Government assured of its plans to amend the constitution paving the way for how future parliamentarians are elected.

The Senate late Thursday night followed the Lower House earlier this month and approved the Constitution Amendment Bill by an 18-12 margin that provides for a two-term prime minister, the right to recall legislators and perhaps the most contentious, the need for an elected candidate to obtain 50 per cent of the votes in a general election or face a run-off.

Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar who had earlier indicated she was prepared to face “political suicide” in getting the legislation approved, had to garner the support of three of the nine independent legislators to ensure approval, after the main opposition People’s National Movement (PNM) stood its grounds insisting that there bill needed a special majority and there was also need for more public consultation on the matter.

But as she ended the three days of debate on the legislation, she dismissed critics of the bill as that “one lone voice crying like a wolf in the wilderness”, telling legislators “I’m prepared to face political harakiri - suicide - because I trust the people of Trinidad and Tobago”.

She said this is the “first time a Government has moved from promises to a concerted effort” towards constitutional reform, saying that the promise to change the constitution had been outlined in the manifesto of the coalition government ahead of the 2010 general election.

She also hinted that her coalition administration, which faces a general election next year, would bring legislation for a fixed date for general elections in the twin island republic.

Earlier, some independent legislators, such as Anthony Vieira called on the government to withdraw the Constitution (Amendment) Bill 2014, noting that he had prayed “for clarity of thought” and “for the power to bring sense and reasoning” in the debate on what was “no doubt...one of the most controversial pieces of legislation” to come to the Parliament.

Vieira said the provision for the recall of non-performing legislator was the proposal which had caused him the “greatest anxiety” and that no grounds were needed for a recall application to be made to the Elections and Boundaries Commission (EBC).

“Once the numbers are there, the petition for recall must be initiated and to my mind such a provision may be open to abuse. One has to question whether on balance the recall provisions will really make MPs accountable to their constituencies or whether we will be in effect emasculating them,” he said.

But in approving the legislation, the Senate accepted several amendments, including one moved by Independent Senator David Small, who later voted with the Government in passing the bill,  to raise the threshold from 10 to 20 per cent for a recall application to be approved by the Elections and Boundaries Commission.

Another Independent Senator Dr Dhansayar Mahabir, who during his contribution had signalled his intention to support the Government once certain amendments were made, got the nod to change the original plan for the run-off that would have only included just the two top finishers.

Mahabir successfully argued that there was need for a third candidate where that person would have secured 25 per cent of the vote or where the third candidate obtains vote amounting to five per cent less than the second runner-up.

The Senate conceded that the new amendment would result in the country’s electoral system being a hybrid one which mixes the majority system, which the run off system was originally meant to achieve, with a plural system.



socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 03:05:47 PM »

Quote
She said this is the “first time a Government has moved from promises to a concerted effort” towards constitutional reform, saying that the promise to change the constitution had been outlined in the manifesto of the coalition government ahead of the 2010 general election.


She made promises ..and is keeping them .

Change her at the ballot box and repeal her Reform Changes...
The electorate can do this ..and its very simple...


As I see it we have blind followers  for both major parties ..who don't want changes..
They will complain about any thing that will not follow party suggestions , even not
knowing what it is about .. 

After Mannings failure and treasury looting ...his supporters comments ok lets for get
that he is gone...
So lets see what happens at election time...


Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 03:08:18 PM »
She said this is the “first time a Government has moved from promises to a concerted effort” towards constitutional reform, saying that the promise to change the constitution had been outlined in the manifesto of the coalition government ahead of the 2010 general election.

That is BS!

The 3rd option in the bill about changing the first-pass-the post electoral system in place since 1962 to a run-off system needing 50% of a minority vote was never part of the manifesto that was discussed.
That option which is the most controversial was undemocratically added to the bill after the discussion because it’s seen by the UNC to give them an advantage in the next elections.

The propaganda campaign to try to get the T&T public to swallow the erosion of their cherished democracy has now started but the general T&T public will not be fooled and the government will pay for all their lies and attempts to deceive the general population at the next general elections despite their bold-faced attempt to undemocratically alter the traditional first pass-the post voting system to their advantage.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:37:05 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 03:38:20 PM »
She said this is the “first time a Government has moved from promises to a concerted effort” towards constitutional reform, saying that the promise to change the constitution had been outlined in the manifesto of the coalition government ahead of the 2010 general election.

That is BS!

The 3rd option in the bill about changing the first-pass-the post electoral system in place since 1962 to a run-off system needing 50% of a minority vote was never part of the manifesto that was discussed. That option which is the most controversial was undemocratically added after the discussion because it’s seen by the UNC to give them an advantage in the next elections.

The propaganda campaign to try to get the T&T public to swallow the erosion of their cherished democracy has now started but the general T&T public will not be fooled and the government will pay for all their lies and attempts to deceive the general population at the next general elections despite their bold-faced attempt to undemocratically alter the traditional first pass-the post voting system to their advantage.


If as you claim is BS

Get your party to the next election ballot and vote out the present government ...
Then  repeal all the laws her government has passed ....

You then can pass laws that your party thinks they are democratically elected to do...

I expect we shall see as Manning did, postpone Council elections for 6 years..well you may
have voted for such a democratic process...

No use getting ya panties tied up in a knot ... its just a simple process... :rotfl:


Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 03:38:59 PM »
As I said before the run off proposal was not an election promise and was not in the PP manifesto. socafighter cannot refute this but instead she/he has been submitted to saying 'she campaigned on Reform Changes"

The PP campaigned an election on constitution reform that will derive from public consultations. They formed a commission responsible for consultations that was lead by one of their own coalition members, instead of someone who was independent. After four years (close to next election year) in office they drafted a bill that had a run off proposal that was never consulted by the public. Also there are parliamentarians who are saying the consultations were not widespread and did not reach every constituency. Anyway the public divide on this bill come mostly from the run off  which is seen to be inserted as a scheme to win an election. Regardless of your political affiliation the run off proposal which taints an entire bill that was pretty much forced into legislation in less than three weeks is causing more ethnic divide in T&T

So in the end what promises did she keep again ?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:44:28 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 03:48:07 PM »
Anything else you want to add socafighter?

Quote
The run-off proposal, however, the most controversial aspect of the

bill, did not feature in the People’s Partnership mani­festo, in the main consultations around the country or in the CRC’s report, she said
.

Hodge said the run-off ballot was a mechanism and not a principle, and the CRC agreed, in the first instance, to a set of principles.

“Not every detail regarding how to implement these principles would have been worked out by members of the CRC, nor would these details have come necessarily from members of the public who participated in the consultation process,” she said. “But the CRC signed off on the whole package—principles, as well as implementation methodology. Therefore, we have to take responsibility.


http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/STOP--THE--DEBATE-270420141.html

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:50:00 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 03:49:21 PM »
She said this is the “first time a Government has moved from promises to a concerted effort” towards constitutional reform, saying that the promise to change the constitution had been outlined in the manifesto of the coalition government ahead of the 2010 general election.

That is BS!

The 3rd option in the bill about changing the first-pass-the post electoral system in place since 1962 to a run-off system needing 50% of a minority vote was never part of the manifesto that was discussed. That option which is the most controversial was undemocratically added after the discussion because it’s seen by the UNC to give them an advantage in the next elections.

The propaganda campaign to try to get the T&T public to swallow the erosion of their cherished democracy has now started but the general T&T public will not be fooled and the government will pay for all their lies and attempts to deceive the general population at the next general elections despite their bold-faced attempt to undemocratically alter the traditional first pass-the post voting system to their advantage.


If as you claim is BS

Get your party to the next election ballot and vote out the present government ...
Then  repeal all the laws her government has passed ....

You then can pass laws that your party thinks they are democratically elected to do...

I expect we shall see as Manning did, postpone Council elections for 6 years..well you may
have voted for such a democratic process...

No use getting ya panties tied up in a knot ... its just a simple process... :rotfl:

This is not a simple process if the government plans work out. The government knows that most of the T&T electorate who are not blinded by racial voting plan to vote them out at the next elections so they have put a number of measures in place to steal the next elections and this change of the voting system to allow more time to buy votes in the marginal seats is part of the plan along with flooding the marginals with Guyanese and other voters recently granted housing and T&T citizenship.

I think this change in the voting system will be overturned in the courts as it is clearly undemocratic and that is the only thing that will save T&T from becoming a two party dictatorship as this undemocratic change in the voting system is clearly designed to do.

PS:
You can laugh about this because you are no longer a T&T citizen but this is no laughing matter as democracy in T&T could be lost forever if this undemocratic change in the electoral process is exploited by any of the two major parties.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:03:34 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 03:52:17 PM »
As I said before the run off proposal was not an election promise and was not in the PP manifesto. socafighter cannot refute this but instead she has been submitted to saying 'she campaigned on Reform Changes"

The PP campaigned an election on constitution reform that will derive from public consultations. They formed a commission responsible for consultations that was lead by one of their own coalition members, instead of someone who was independent. After four years (close to next election year) in office they drafted a bill that had a run off proposal that was never consulted by the public. Also there are parliamentarians who are saying the consultations were not widespread and did not reach every constituency. Anyway the public divide on this bill come mostly from the run off  which is seen to be inserted as a scheme to win an election. Regardless if your political affiliation the run off proposal which taints an entire bill that was pretty much forced into legislation in less than three weeks is causing more ethnic divide in T&T

So in the end what promises did she keep again ?


Quote
After four years (close to next election year) in office they drafted a bill that had a run off proposal that was never consulted by the public. Also there are parliamentarians who are saying the consultations were not widespread and did not reach every constituency. Anyway the public divide on this bill come mostly from the run off  which is seen to be inserted as a scheme to win an election.

You are saying the public was not consulted...
You are saying then ...the consultations were not widespread...
You are saying it didn't reach every constituency ...

You have a common denominator here ..did the party you support  claim this , since the
above three lines all conflict with each other ...typical of Party supporters who don't think...

I have never voted in any elections in T&T , I was born in Trinidad , left at an early age for
France . I am a citizen of Canada , don't hold dual citizenship .
Now I have no party affiliations whatsoever....so I cannot be accused of party affiliation.

I am viewing this on logic and common sense .
A party in power voted in by the electorate  ....you and cohorts don't like what legislation/s
is/are  passed in Parliament .... a process is out there in the public domain..

Gather the supporters and out vote them from Office and repeal the legislations ...
its so simple ... democracy at its best ...



Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 03:57:33 PM »
As I said before the run off proposal was not an election promise and was not in the PP manifesto. socafighter cannot refute this but instead she has been submitted to saying 'she campaigned on Reform Changes"

The PP campaigned an election on constitution reform that will derive from public consultations. They formed a commission responsible for consultations that was lead by one of their own coalition members, instead of someone who was independent. After four years (close to next election year) in office they drafted a bill that had a run off proposal that was never consulted by the public. Also there are parliamentarians who are saying the consultations were not widespread and did not reach every constituency. Anyway the public divide on this bill come mostly from the run off  which is seen to be inserted as a scheme to win an election. Regardless if your political affiliation the run off proposal which taints an entire bill that was pretty much forced into legislation in less than three weeks is causing more ethnic divide in T&T

So in the end what promises did she keep again ?


Quote
After four years (close to next election year) in office they drafted a bill that had a run off proposal that was never consulted by the public. Also there are parliamentarians who are saying the consultations were not widespread and did not reach every constituency. Anyway the public divide on this bill come mostly from the run off  which is seen to be inserted as a scheme to win an election.

You are saying the public was not consulted...
You are saying then ...the consultations were not widespread...
You are saying it didn't reach every constituency ...

You have a common denominator here ..did the party you support  claim this , since the
above three lines all conflict with each other ...typical of Party supporters who don't think.

 :D shows how much you are either misinformed or ignorant about everything that has happened concerning this bill.

EVERYTHING I said can be supported if you search the info online. Safe to say that you are not one who is convinced verbally so search the info yourself. I have posted numerous links in this thread and other threads that support the claim that the run off proposal was NOT part of public consultations, rejected by a large sector of the public and forced into legislation.

Now if this bothers you then I suggest you don't read what is being posted in this thread. Because there is reality and there is fantasy and you seem to want to accept fantasy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:59:41 PM by Sando prince »

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 04:00:30 PM »
Quote
This is not a simple process if the government plans work out. The government knows that most of the T&T electorate who are not blinded by racial voting plan to vote them out at the next elections so they have put a number of measures in place to steal the next elections and this change of the voting system to allowing more time to buy votes in the marginal seats is part of the plan along with flooding the marginals with Guyanese and other voters recently granted housing and T&T citizenship.

I think this change the voting system will be overturned in the courts as it is clearly undemocratic and that is the only thing that will save T&T from becoming a two party dictatorship as this undemocratic change in the voting system is clearly designed to do.


Now lets look at a simple problem...

Panday calls an election ...it results in a tie

In a democracy it goes back to the last ruling government in Power .

The President decides he wants his religious beliefs to be in power ..he chose Manning
did you notice the former president comments years later ..

Who cheated who ?...did the voters have a choice ??
One man did  and many years later we saw his true colors ...
The electorate outvoted him , before his party could call a non confidence motion...
Oh didn't they call this PM a dictator ...

As I have humbly stated ..the electorate will decide  the results , they always do...




socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2014, 04:08:29 PM »

Quote
:D shows how much you are either misinformed or ignorant about everything that has happened concerning this bill.

EVERYTHING I said can be supported if you search the info online. Safe to say that you are not one who is convinced verbally so search the info yourself. I have posted numerous links in this thread and other threads that support the claim that the run off proposal was NOT part of public consultations, rejected by a large sector of the public and forced into legislation.

Now if this bothers you then I suggest you don't read what is being posted in this thread. Because there is reality and there is fantasy and you seem to want to accept fantasy


You have yet to convince me ...
Show me her Election promises ...
Show me what she promised ...
Show me what she and her cabinet changed .
She held consultations ..the opposition hardly was present...

Now the Opposition supporters are claiming ..we go be cheated...it hasn't
happened as yet ...the last election only one run off would have been necessary .
Did your party you supported tell you this ???

I am not showing any emotion in my comments , I have no affiliation with any party
in Trinidad and Tobago.

I am viewing this on logic and common sense .
A party in power voted in by the electorate  ....you and cohorts don't like what legislation/s
is/are  passed in Parliament .... a process is out there in the public domain..

Gather the supporters and out vote them from Office and repeal the legislations ...
its so simple ... democracy at its best ...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:10:48 PM by socafighter »

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2014, 04:10:48 PM »
Anything else you want to add socafighter?

Quote
The run-off proposal, however, the most controversial aspect of the

bill, did not feature in the People’s Partnership mani­festo, in the main consultations around the country or in the CRC’s report, she said
.

Hodge said the run-off ballot was a mechanism and not a principle, and the CRC agreed, in the first instance, to a set of principles.

“Not every detail regarding how to implement these principles would have been worked out by members of the CRC, nor would these details have come necessarily from members of the public who participated in the consultation process,” she said. “But the CRC signed off on the whole package—principles, as well as implementation methodology. Therefore, we have to take responsibility.


http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/STOP--THE--DEBATE-270420141.html


Oh let me add more for socafighter since he/she claims the common denominator is me making claims, here take the opinions of other who are saying the SAME  :)

More consultation was better way to go, says Dumas

Former head of the public service Reginald Dumas says Government should have put the Constitutional (Amendment) Bill 2014 on hold, and established an independent team, including a United Nations expert on elections, to consult with citizens.

The bill, which proposes two-term limits for prime ministers, the right to recall non-performing MPs and a runoff vote, was approved with amendments in the Senate on Thursday night with the votes of Independent Senators Dr Rolph Balgobin, Dhanayshar Mahabir and David Small. It will now be returned to the House of Representatives for the amendments to be accepted.

But speaking in a telephone interview yesterday, Dumas said he would have preferred the legislation be put on hold to allow for the new team to be set up. Dumas said the independent committee should have been made to focus “not so much the runoff proposal (but) a fair system of voting.”

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-08-30/more-consultation-was-better-way-go-says-dumas


Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2014, 04:12:10 PM »
Quote
This is not a simple process if the government plans work out. The government knows that most of the T&T electorate who are not blinded by racial voting plan to vote them out at the next elections so they have put a number of measures in place to steal the next elections and this change of the voting system to allowing more time to buy votes in the marginal seats is part of the plan along with flooding the marginals with Guyanese and other voters recently granted housing and T&T citizenship.

I think this change the voting system will be overturned in the courts as it is clearly undemocratic and that is the only thing that will save T&T from becoming a two party dictatorship as this undemocratic change in the voting system is clearly designed to do.


Now lets look at a simple problem...

Panday calls an election ...it results in a tie

In a democracy it goes back to the last ruling government in Power .

The President decides he wants his religious beliefs to be in power ..he chose Manning
did you notice the former president comments years later ..

Who cheated who ?...did the voters have a choice ??
One man did  and many years later we saw his true colors ...
The electorate outvoted him , before his party could call a non confidence motion...
Oh didn't they call this PM a dictator ...

As I have humbly stated ..the electorate will decide  the results , they always do...

You clearly don’t understand the impact of these electoral changes if they go thru and become law and why they are now being challenged in court by one of the 3rd parties so why join the discussion in this thread?
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2014, 04:12:34 PM »
 :D socafighter is still disputing the fact that the run off portion of this Constitution Reform was not an election promise or part of the PP manifesto and was never part of public consultations

Anyway I am not here to convince you. I will continue to post the facts as they present themselves
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:14:54 PM by Sando prince »

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2014, 04:13:08 PM »
Sando Prince

I have always viewed Dumas as a puppet of the PNM ...

It would be wise to chose someone with better credibility with no party affiliations...
 :rotfl:

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2014, 04:14:21 PM »


Sando Prince

I have always viewed Dumas as a puppet of the PNM ...

It would be wise to chose someone with better credibility with no party affiliations...
 :rotfl:

 :D Your view = common denominator. Since you understand everything in math

socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2014, 04:18:44 PM »
GIVE IT A CHANCE
Senior counsel, religious leaders weigh in on Constitution Bill:


By port of spain \\\\\ Kim Boodram
Story Created: Aug 29, 2014 at 10:43 PM ECT
Express

A willingness to give the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2014 a chance appears to have come from Martin Daly SC, who said yesterday it will not obliterate smaller, third parties as feared.

The bill was passed on Thursday in the Senate, at Tower D, International

Waterfront Centre, Port of Spain, after amendments were made to the controversial run-off provision.

Daly told TV6 News yesterday as a result of the negotiations between Independent senators and Government, there has been an “interesting experiment in constitutional reform”.

The negotiating also helped smooth out flaws in the bill, he said.

He said the intense negotiations during the committee stage of the bill will show the checks and balan­ces in the governance system do work.

“Whatever you think of the concession the Government made, it can’t be said that the bill, which will become an act, will obliterate third parties,” Daly said.

“It’s really the unelected members who have the biggest influence on the process, and I think it worked to our advantage,” Daly said.

Stoking the ire of parts of civil society is the run-off clause in par­tic­ular, which allows for a second go at the polls between the two headers of a constituency.

This clause was not discussed with the public nor, according to former member of the Constitution Reform Commission (CRC) Dr Merle Hodge, with the commission itself.

That commission was chaired by Legal Affairs Minister Prakash Ramadhar, an arrangement viewed by some as slanting the work of the commission from the start.

The other provisions that have caused controversy are proposed two-term limits for prime ministers and the right of recall for MPs.

However, former head of the Public Service Reginald Dumas remained staunch yesterday in his disagreement with Government’s lack of consultation on the run-off clause of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2014.

Dumas last week wrote to Senate president Timothy Hamel-Smith, asking that Hamel-Smith recuse himself from the August 26 debate, based on an e-mail he, Hamel-Smith, was alleged to have circula­ted to various people, asking that they support a call for the bill to be taken to a Joint Select Committee.

Hamel-Smith left days later on a vacation he said had been booked before the bill issue came up, giving way to Senate vice-president James Lambert.

Speaking via telephone from his home in Bacolet, Tobago, yesterday, Dumas said he did not object in principle to the provisions for recall and limited terms for prime ministers as they have featured in local political literature in the past.

With regard to the right of recall, Dumas said a lot of MPs have not behaved properly towards their constituents—but with such legislation, “the devil is in the details”.

Dumas said his consternation remained with the run-off clause.

“The matter was not even discussed by the population,” Dumas said.

“It did not even come up. You can’t have feedback if there is nothing to feed back.”

Dumas said the manner in which the clause was brought to the public’s eye is “completely erroneous”.

“I resent that because it brought the people into something they know nothing about,” he said.

He said he has observed, as well, the report produced by the CRC did not contain a terms of reference (ToR), though members have in the past repeatedly referred to their “mandate”.

“What in God’s name is their mandate or their remit?,” Dumas asked, adding such reports are typically required to contain a ToR.

He said he has never been part of a commission that did not include a ToR in its documents or written a report without its ToR having been set out.


socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2014, 04:20:28 PM »

An Officer of the Court is asking to give it a chance ...

It proves my point ...if it doesn't work...we can change it .

Why judge this legislation based on party affiliation and emotion... :rotfl:

How many trust that character ..unless one lives in this electorate district ... :rotfl:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:26:06 PM by socafighter »

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2014, 04:21:38 PM »
Same tingz ah hearing from other Trinis. This woman hit the nail on the head with this.. It's not the norm for Independent senators to engage with constituents on issues

Quote
This is the point made by Dr Merle Hodge in her two statements about the process leading to the bill and the bill itself. Addressing the run-off provision, Hodge said, “Citizens are finding this proposal to be potentially destructive of democracy, and as a citizen myself, benefitting from their wisdom, I have to say that I agree with that analysis.”

This, Senator Balgobin, is the benefit of consultation and this, Sir, contradicts your comment: “If you sign, you sign.”

Independent Senators, not having faced the polls and the people, are unaccustomed to interaction with the public on issues that arise in the Senate.

This bill has been unusual in the boil it has generated among the population. In that context, I can understand Senator Mahabir’s hurt that he was booed by lobbyists outside the Parliament on Tuesday.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/commentaries/Boos-that-come-not-back-273116541.html



socafighter

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2014, 04:23:23 PM »
Socapro..

Quote
You clearly don’t understand the impact of these electoral changes if they go thru and become law and why they are now being challenged in court by one of the 3rd parties so why join the discussion in this thread?

I am enjoying this debate its how I learn , I was taught at an early age by my Father , make sure you hear the other side before making a decision...its something I have followed throughout my life.

I view Sando prince and you are intelligent fellow Trinis....

My problem is that 3rd party and its leader and elected member...

As soon as this 3rd Party entered the discussion ..all focus are lost ...other than his
electorate ..how many really trust this character to have power ...

 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:32:32 PM by socafighter »

Offline Socapro

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Re: Constitution Amendment Bill 2014 represents erosion of democracy in T&T
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2014, 04:31:55 PM »


An Officer of the Court is asking to give it a chance ...

It proves my point ...if it doesn't work...we can change it .

Why judge this legislation based on party affiliation and emotion... :rotfl:
That officer of the court does not represent the views of the General T&T population.

The point is the electoral reform decreases democracy rather than increases it which is why it is now being challenged in court by one of the 3 parties. Do you think if they agreed that it would not negatively affect them and would increase democracy that a 3rd party would challenge the change?

The point is if this change is accepted and signed into law by the T&T president that T&T will become a two party dictatorship and there is no question about that.

Only people who support T&T being run by a two party dictatorship will logically support this change in the electoral system.
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)