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Offline Flex

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2015, 05:59:31 AM »
Kamla: PNM Rapid Rail to cost US$10 billion
By Richardson Dhalai (Newsday).


As she formally opened the $30 million Debe Interchange to Gandhi Village, part of the Solomon Hochoy Highway Extension to Point Fortin, yesterday, Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar slammed the Opposition PNM’s Rapid Rail Project saying it would cost just over $60 billion and not $10billion as was being touted by the PNM.

PNM Diego Martin North East candidate and former Works Minister, Colm Imbert, at a recent political meeting at Guaico, said the railway, according to his cost estimates, would cost as much as the San Fernando to Point Fortin highway.

“The cost of the railway from Diego Martin to Sangre Grande is the same price as the cost of the highway from San Fernando to Point Fortin — $10 billion...

and they take cost of the railway and multiply by six.

It is TT$10 billion and they say it is TT$60 billion, they told you that to make you afraid,” he contended.

At the event opening yesterday, Persad- Bisessar, citing a feasibility study conducted by DBOM contractors on the Rapid Rail project, said that the $500million study found the project’s capital cost outweighed the economic benefits of the rapid rail project.

“We spent $500 million dollars on a study to tell us that they are unable to produce a design that is economically feasible but more, the capital cost of the project outweigh the estimated cost benefits by over 50 percent,” Persad- Bissessar said.

“They are making another promise of a rapid rail project with a very huge cost, they are linking that rapid rail project by saying that it will only cost them $10 billion. But when the Rapid Rail project speaks of $10 billion, it says US dollars and when you multiply by six, it is TT$60 billion,” she pointed out.

“My legacy will not be in tall buildings but in hospitals and schools and that is why over the past five years we have built over 100 schools,” she added.

And, without identifying Highway Reroute Movement, leader Dr Wayne Kublalsingh by name, the Prime Minister also expressed relief that he had not died some 200 days after embarking on a hunger strike against the Debe to Mon Desir highway segment.

“I thank God that 200 odd days later, he is still alive,” she said, adding, “but I also thank God that I had the courage and the strength and the faith.

I could not let one or two or three stop the progress of the majority of the people and that is what democracy is about.” “The majority will determine how we go and I took that vision and said we will build that highway and we will continue to build it,” she said.

NIDCO president Dr Carson Charles, also speaking yesterday, said approximately 55 percent of the $7.5 billion highway had been completed and would accelerate the work to be completed in 2016.

Charles said a water management study had also been commissioned regarding flooding in the area.

He said the highway would not contribute to additional flooding in the area.

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Offline Deeks

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #181 on: August 16, 2015, 06:43:43 AM »
That is what pissed me off, that 500 million feasibility study. 500 hundred million?

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #182 on: August 16, 2015, 07:35:35 AM »
That is what pissed me off, that 500 million feasibility study. 500 hundred million?

You know what pissing me off more??  That Kamla had 5 years to address the issue of traffic and transport and did nada.......in the meantime, they increased the quota for foreign used vehicles for their supporters in the foreign used car business so ah setta cars on the road clogging up the over burdened road network we have....

Why she doh explain how de arse we find $7 billion to fund the highway to Point Fortin from RECURRENT expenditure, and why we didn't go to the IDB to fund it and why we used OAS from Brazil who is now bankrupt and cyar finish de job so we hiring local contractors to finish it....more money in friends' pockets...

We Kamla doh explain that??!!

THAT pisses me off!!!!  All they could do is point fingers but have no solutions to any our problems.....waste of blasted time....

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Offline Deeks

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #183 on: August 16, 2015, 08:41:50 AM »
I still agree to build the rail. No more feasibility studies, though.

Offline Socapro

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2015, 11:23:27 AM »
I still agree to build the rail. No more feasibility studies, though.

PNM already did a feasibility study. All that the is left is for the general T&T public to decide if they want the rail system or not and if they are willing to pay for it to be biult.
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Offline Trini1

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #185 on: August 17, 2015, 12:59:17 PM »
Like I said before even if it is just the east-west line I think it would make a positive difference. They really should consider running the line up to chaguaramas at reduced frequencies during off peak periods and increasing the frequency for peak periods and  events hosted in chaguaramas esp. with that waterpark being built. As long as it is well policed, and the infrastructure and safety are both well maintained it will be a benefit to Trinidad.

Offline R45

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #186 on: August 17, 2015, 01:08:50 PM »
There's a difference between a rapid rail and a light rail system. When Vancouver built one of their rapid rail lines a couple years ago, the cost was over $500 million TT per KM. The distance between POS and Arima is about 28KM, so at those costs the line between Arima and POS could be TT $14 billion alone. Imbert is ridiculous to suggest that the entire system will cost TT 10 billion.

One thing not mentioned is the "feasibility study" wasn't actually a feasibility study - it was actually a design study. We paid $500 million to design a rapid rail system and do geo-technical work on the different phases, without even doing a feasibility study if we could afford it. The design study put the price (excluding property acquisitions) at somewhere around 46 billion TTD / 7 billion USD. With acquisitions, that was estimated to be 60 billion TTD. The only "feasibility" part of the $500M study was a price at the end, and that's when the whole thing stopped.

A contract was actually signed to build the rapid rail project with a TriniTrain Consortium, resulting in the $500M study which was Phase 1 of the contract. See this release from April 2008:

Quote
TRINIDAD & TOBAGO: The Trinitrain consortium of Bouygues Construction, Alstom Transport and RATP Développement announced on April 11 that it had been selected by the government and its National Infrastructure Development Co to design, build, operate and maintain a two-line passenger rail system on Trinidad.

The 'express' rail lines will have a total length of 105 km, including around 20 km of viaducts, and approximately 10 stations. A 50 km line will link the capital Port of Spain to San Fernando in the south of the island, while the 54 km second line will cross from east to west between Port of Spain and Sangre Grande.

Trinitrain will conduct preliminary studies to finalise the route and detailed specifications during the US$70m first phase of the contract, expected to last 20 months. Costs and scheduling will then be agreed with NIDCO.

Civil works for the project will be managed by Bouygues Travaux Publics, with Alstom responsible for railway systems and rolling stock. Construction is estimated to take four years, after which RATP Développement will handle operations and maintenance for 15 years.

The Trinitrain consortium will be working on the project with the Covec subsidiary of China Railways Engineering Corp, locally-based construction company Daynco and Canadian engineering consultancy Dessau.

Source: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/trinidad-rapid-rail-consortium-confirmed.html

Honestly there's no way T&T can afford a rapid rail system. What SHOULD be done is a comparison between a light raid system or some other mass transit system (bus, or otherwise), and then we should proceed with the best option for the country. The posters saying here "no more feasibility studies" are not recognizing that we actually never had one done.

Offline R45

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #187 on: August 17, 2015, 01:12:59 PM »
PNM already did a feasibility study. All that the is left is for the general T&T public to decide if they want the rail system or not and if they are willing to pay for it to be biult.

This is incorrect. What the Manning administration did was initiate the start of the rapid rail system, and signed contracts for the design, construction, operation, and maintenance. There was no feasibility study done.

A feasibility study would have been an estimate of different systems/options with different price tags, and an economic comparison of the different options. This was never done by either the Manning/PNM administration or the Kamla/UNC/PP administration. We still haven't actually evaluated the different options, costs, and benefits.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #188 on: August 17, 2015, 01:33:01 PM »
Like I said before even if it is just the east-west line I think it would make a positive difference. They really should consider running the line up to chaguaramas at reduced frequencies during off peak periods and increasing the frequency for peak periods and  events hosted in chaguaramas esp. with that waterpark being built. As long as it is well policed, and the infrastructure and safety are both well maintained it will be a benefit to Trinidad.


It should go up to Sando, passing Ato and Mannie Ramjohn.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #189 on: August 17, 2015, 01:42:56 PM »
Ok this right here is what get me vex. Everybody should know by now the rapid rail is intended to go from North to Central to South and the East-West corridor. But yet I come in here and still see people thinking it may only go in the East-West corridor and some are requesting it should go to Sando as if it is not already intended to go Sando.

Ok so let me be the poster who will make another post of the initial map of what the rapid rail would look like..

http://s706.photobucket.com/user/truetrini2010/media/RapidRail.jpg.html


« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:48:17 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Deeks

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #190 on: August 17, 2015, 01:51:03 PM »
Sando, that is exactly what we mean. We known that render is the logical routes. But some on the for um feel that even if the UNC get back into power, they should seriously consider the rail service. If no the entire thing, but at least the EW corridor which has the densest traffic flow in the country. I insist that Sando should always be in the picture, even iF it takes longer than usual to build.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #191 on: August 17, 2015, 01:56:07 PM »
Sando, that is exactly what we mean. We known that render is the logical routes. But some on the for um feel that even if the UNC get back into power, they should seriously consider the rail service. If no the entire thing, but at least the EW corridor which has the densest traffic flow in the country. I insist that Sando should always be in the picture, even iF it takes longer than usual to build.

The present government has come out publicly and said on more than one occasion they will not build the rapid rail. They insist on a new Bus system. Which to me does not make sense because that may just cause more traffic and the idea is to solve the traffic problem.

Offline R45

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2015, 02:21:27 PM »
They insist on a new Bus system. Which to me does not make sense because that may just cause more traffic and the idea is to solve the traffic problem.
That's not necessarily true. In many cities there are dedicated bus corridors that a separate from the existing road infrastructure (like the PBR right now). Also, if we were to convert certain lanes to priority bus lanes / bus right of way, then while it would reduce the number of lanes available to private cars, it will also improve the speed / reliability of the bus service and discourage people from driving (hence removing cars from the road, reducing congestion).

That said, Kamla's bus transit announcement has no details whatsoever. For buses to be "RAPID" they need to have dedicated corridors. When you start building dedicated bus corridors, the cost difference between that and light rail end up being very close (I'm saying light rail, not rapid rail).

Frankly a rail system alone isn't going to fix our traffic woes. We need a combination of a fast mass transit (whether rapid bus/rail) combined with an effective bus system.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #193 on: August 17, 2015, 02:30:49 PM »
They insist on a new Bus system. Which to me does not make sense because that may just cause more traffic and the idea is to solve the traffic problem.
That's not necessarily true. In many cities there are dedicated bus corridors that a separate from the existing road infrastructure (like the PBR right now). Also, if we were to convert certain lanes to priority bus lanes / bus right of way, then while it would reduce the number of lanes available to private cars, it will also improve the speed / reliability of the bus service and discourage people from driving (hence removing cars from the road, reducing congestion).

That said, Kamla's bus transit announcement has no details whatsoever. For buses to be "RAPID" they need to have dedicated corridors. When you start building dedicated bus corridors, the cost difference between that and light rail end up being very close (I'm saying light rail, not rapid rail).

Frankly a rail system alone isn't going to fix our traffic woes. We need a combination of a fast mass transit (whether rapid bus/rail) combined with an effective bus system.

To summarize my answer to your points I will say Trinidad do not have the type of roads to have an increas in buses that will also move at an effective time schedule as the cities you have alluded to... Not jus road structure but the amount of vehicles on the road now will make it difficult for the bus system to move at that effective pace. A rapid rail however as Imbert has said will not interfere with the vehicles on the road because the train lines will be segregated.


Offline Controversial

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2015, 02:37:54 PM »
I support the rail fully, but at what cost?

It may mean cutting in areas like sport or culture, even worse education.. Or if we borrow, we put our nation in further debt with low oil prices..

If the oil prices were a lot higher, I believe we could build in segments.. Every year, but that would take close to 8 years to complete without incurring substantial debt to the nation and or draining the treasury.. Or cutting and affecting other sectors
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 02:43:38 PM by Controversial »

Offline R45

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #195 on: August 17, 2015, 02:54:03 PM »
To summarize my answer to your points I will say Trinidad do not have the type of roads to have an increas in buses that will also move at an effective time schedule as the cities you have alluded to... Not jus road structure but the amount of vehicles on the road now will make it difficult for the bus system to move at that effective pace. A rapid rail however as Imbert has said will not interfere with the vehicles on the road because the train lines will be segregated.
That's what bus corridors are for - that is, new road dedicated for buses only. They are either at grade (i.e. on the same level running in parallel) or segregated. They are bus rapid transit systems around the world that use bus corridors. Ottawa is an example of a city that has a bus rapid transit system with dedicated corridors.

There are different types of rail systems, rapid is one of them. Rapid rail is as its name implies, moves quickly. However the infrastructure requirements are extremely high to support it, from both the rail gauge construction, track supports, and station designs/length.

The problem with the rapid rail project of the Manning era is that they did not conduct a feasibility study before deciding to proceed with the design phase and started designing grades, trains and stations (this is the bulk of the $500 million cost). The initial figure floated around by Manning in 2006 was around TT $16 billion for the cost of the entire project.

What we as taxpayers should get regardless of if Rowley/Kamla win is a non-political comparison showing the variety of different mass transit options with the different costs/impacts/benefits, so that we know we are making the best long term decision for the country. We absolutely need to factor in the operating costs of each solution - rapid rail is usually the most expensive to operate and we cannot evaluate it on construction costs alone.


Offline Flex

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #196 on: October 04, 2015, 02:49:28 AM »
RAPID RAIL BACK ON TRACK
By Asha Javeed (Express).


What's in tomorrow's budget? Authority, mass transit system return......

IF national budgets are categorised by goodies, Budget 2016 should hold little surprise.

In 2014 when he was Opposition Leader, Dr Keith Rowley was conscious he could be criticised as a "prophet of doom" when he gave his response to budget 2015, titled "Opportunity Lost—the Missing Years".

In what marked his 24th year of participating in budget debates, Rowley painted a stark picture of Trinidad and Tobago's economic reality—five consistent years of budget deficits which have worsened the national debt, a crisis in the country's energy sector and the "burgeoning crime and general lawlessness in our society".

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Offline davyjenny1

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #197 on: October 05, 2015, 05:07:11 PM »
I wasn't surprise of some telling figures by Colm Imbert, of the budget speech delivered earlier today. To be continued on Friday October 9,2015.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 05:17:13 PM by davyjenny1 »
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #198 on: October 05, 2015, 07:38:03 PM »
I don't see the project taking place in the near future, although I am for it. This is an important budget to stop the bleeding.

Offline Michael-j

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #199 on: October 05, 2015, 07:54:29 PM »
I wasn't surprise of some telling figures by Colm Imbert, of the budget speech delivered earlier today. To be continued on Friday October 9,2015.

The opposition bench didn't seem surprised either. There was complete silence when the severity of the situation was revealed.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #200 on: October 05, 2015, 08:27:05 PM »
The Finance Minister speaks about the Rapid Rail during his budget presentation. See from 1:13:47 of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn0POHYtMm0

.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 08:36:35 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Socapro

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #201 on: October 05, 2015, 09:34:08 PM »
The Finance Minister speaks about the Rapid Rail during his budget presentation. See from 1:13:47 of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn0POHYtMm0

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Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #202 on: October 06, 2015, 06:04:47 PM »




Rapid Rail Project still on Government’s Agenda


Government is still interested in the development of a rapid rail project in the country.

Finance Minister, Colm Imbert, gave the indication while responding to questions posed to him today.

Speaking at the Trinidad and Tobago Chamber of Industry and Commerce post -budget forum held in Port of Spain, Minister Imbert explained that the Inter-American Development Bank has expressed an interest in the mega project.

http://news.power102fm.com/rapid-rail-project-still-on-governments-agenda-31525#sthash.CIsveMYk.dpuf

.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Build that rail.
« Reply #203 on: October 06, 2015, 06:46:20 PM »

VIDEO Report; https://www.facebook.com/cnewslive/videos/10153623401375610/

Quote
The Government is going full speed ahead with the rapid rail project. However, Finance Minister Colm Imbert says it will be very cautious in doing so. He said from what he estimates, the rapid rail will only cost $10 billion and will be done under a Public Private Partnership to ease the burden on the country.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Contract for billion-dollar rail system by September.
« Reply #204 on: May 21, 2017, 06:01:50 PM »
Getting back to rail transport. Here is Panama. No oil or gas. But has international trade, banking and the Canal. They are building an elevated subway. We make a substantial amount of money from hydro-carbons. How come we can't build one. What wrong with we?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=139430896#post139430896

Offline Controversial

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Re: Contract for billion-dollar rail system by September.
« Reply #205 on: May 30, 2017, 01:55:30 AM »
Getting back to rail transport. Here is Panama. No oil or gas. But has international trade, banking and the Canal. They are building an elevated subway. We make a substantial amount of money from hydro-carbons. How come we can't build one. What wrong with we?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=139430896#post139430896

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Offline pull stones

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Re: Contract for billion-dollar rail system by September.
« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2017, 10:14:53 AM »
Getting back to rail transport. Here is Panama. No oil or gas. But has international trade, banking and the Canal. They are building an elevated subway. We make a substantial amount of money from hydro-carbons. How come we can't build one. What wrong with we?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=139430896#post139430896

Corrupt and no revolutionaries to counter the corrupt upper crust
from what I heard the UNC emptied the treasury while gas and oil prices fell below budgetary standards where the government is so strapped for cash that they have to borrow from the stabilization fund just to maintain and keep the country afloat. I heard it's a monthly struggle for the new government to pay their bills on time and has to dig deep to keep from going to the IMF. I can't imagine politicians getting away with so much corruption like the former government did. this is outrageous.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 10:22:17 AM by pull stones »

 

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