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Author Topic: The evolution of football and tactics  (Read 2945 times)

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Offline palos

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The evolution of football and tactics
« on: July 16, 2018, 02:09:13 PM »
It's fascinating to me to see how football tactics, strategies, formations etc evolve over time

In 2010 South Africa, Spain won the World Cup for the first time and heralded in the age of "Tiki Taka". 

Possession football.   The longer you had the ball, the less opportunity it gave the opposition to score.   

If you don't have the ball.....you can't score.  Simple enough

Top teams that possessed the ball then, worked like demons to regain possession when it was lost.  It rendered opposing teams at the time virtually helpless.  I remember Barcelona playing Man U in a CL Final and making them look decidedly second class.

But as with all things......people evaluate and devise a scheme that will overcome that tactic

In 2014...Germany won the World Cup producing some devastating football in the semi against Brazil...thrashing them 7-1 at home in a display of ruthless and clinical efficiency.  They beat Argentina in a tightly contested final with both teams giving away little.

In 2018....France won despite being "out possessed" by nearly 50% in almost all of their matches.  Theirs was a triumph of efficiency, defensive solidity, and clinical counter attacking football.  And yeah...they could also play "champagne football" as they showed glimpses of in nearly every match.....but they weren't about that, and those glimpses only came about when they were on top.  They were about the efficiency

It will be interesting to watch how that will impact club football tactics.  Undoubtedly it will.  Essentially it says...."have the ball....keep it for as long as you want......come in and attack us.....and then BOOM....we ketch you on the counter".

This is not new.....but the hybrid of tactics from years past with new wrinkles thrown is what's intriguing.   Croatia played the football (in the first half).  France took home the spoils.  And at the end of the day....that's what has always mattered.
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline FF

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 07:18:29 PM »
And people don't like Mourinho eh. He was a pioneer  ;D

Beat Barcelona at the height of tiki taka with Inter having less than 30% possession
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline coache

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 10:39:52 PM »
The objective of the game is to score goals. The team that scores the most wins..it doesn't matter how long a team can possess the ball. Just put players on the field who can get goals, make goals/create goals..system of football means very little if a team has those weapons .

France fielded Griezeman-striker
                      Giroud     - striker
                       Mbappe  - striker 
                       Pogba      goal getter
                       
Those four can play as a lone striker in any set up..here we see four goal hungry players on the same team..what about the others who I haven't mentioned.

Offline palos

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 11:41:28 PM »
And people don't like Mourinho eh. He was a pioneer  ;D

Beat Barcelona at the height of tiki taka with Inter having less than 30% possession

How many times did Mourinho get his ass handed to him by Barcelona?

He lost wAaaay more than he won against them.

Mourinho was the special one against Barca alright.  Special like Radio
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline FF

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 04:51:44 AM »
Palos you taking shit!!

Mourinho managed 27 games against Barcelona from 2004 and the record is 8 wins, 9 ties and 10 losses. Pretty even I would say
And that is the height of tiki taka. If just one game swing it would have been 9/9/9

Mourinho like it or not played a role in deciphering the enigma of tiki taka


THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 06:45:26 AM »
I get your point FF, but sense it might be tongue in cheek.  That said, Mourinho's brand and Dechamps brand while conceptually similar still appear very different.  more caution from mourinho and some chance taking by Deschamps, so the latter is still more appealing and can also be successful while Mourinho is just, let's face it, a snooze fest, albeit Porto, Inter success.

The brand should really align with quality on the pitch in all roles, when you take a talented side and play the Mourinho brand perhaps you will win, but arguably not the best use of talent.  With Deschamps, I can still enjoy it even if it isn't out and out attack and yet still successful
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Offline FF

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 10:25:47 AM »
I was tongue in cheek in the first place knowing palos' feelings concerning Mourinho.

Just find it funny that people coming around to the philosophical descendant of Mourinho ball. It is a long evolution yes but you can see the roots of organization
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline palos

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 11:26:21 AM »
I was tongue in cheek in the first place knowing palos' feelings concerning Mourinho.

Just find it funny that people coming around to the philosophical descendant of Mourinho ball. It is a long evolution yes but you can see the roots of organization

Mourinho is a bus parker.  By and large, his teams play anti football.

A vast difference between him and what Deschamps accomplished.

I can understand a weak team employing those tactics against a clearly superior opponent.  T&T against Sweden.  Iran against Portugal etc

But when you have a team of superstars and employing those tactics as Mourinho routinely does?  Bare cowardice. 
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline soccerman

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 03:54:43 PM »
I get your point FF, but sense it might be tongue in cheek.  That said, Mourinho's brand and Dechamps brand while conceptually similar still appear very different.  more caution from mourinho and some chance taking by Deschamps, so the latter is still more appealing and can also be successful while Mourinho is just, let's face it, a snooze fest, albeit Porto, Inter success.

The brand should really align with quality on the pitch in all roles, when you take a talented side and play the Mourinho brand perhaps you will win, but arguably not the best use of talent.  With Deschamps, I can still enjoy it even if it isn't out and out attack and yet still successful
:beermug: They're both pragmatic with Deschamps having the quality for counter attacks in transition, something Griezman is used to with Atlectio with Simione and the pace of Mbappe. Deschamps style, hasn't been favored by many French supporters and probably would've been fired if he hadn't made it to the semi's with this team for Zidane as speculated by the press.

Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: The evolution of football and tactics
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 07:35:00 PM »
Sense
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Offline lefty

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Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 06:14:30 AM »
interesting
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4</a>
I pity the fool....

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 08:26:48 AM »
interesting
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4</a>

Beware of tactical pronouncements and generalizations borne by the English accent (Fenwick aside) :P. I can point you in the direction of comments made by Glenn Hoddle, as recently as within the last week or two, that contradict or call into question the liberties of the '10'. It wasn't until he met a coach whose first name is Arsene that he was truly freed of the burdens Alex Stewart is representing were non-existent.

If I take you back to Hoddle that should tell you something.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 08:29:32 AM by asylumseeker »

Offline lefty

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 09:38:11 AM »
interesting
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/P1_fAjKqoS4</a>

Beware of tactical pronouncements and generalizations borne by the English accent (Fenwick aside  :P). I can point you in the direction of comments made by Glenn Hoddle, as recently as within the last week or two, that contradict or call into question the liberties of the '10'. It wasn't until he met a coach whose first name is Arsene that he was truly freed of the burdens Alex Stewart is representing were non-existent.

If I take you back to Hoddle that should tell you something.

would be interested in that, I myself once argued right here that us in particular could function without an identified 10(Latapy) we just had to readjust our idea of football to be more cooperative and workmanlike, whim show we dat, and what we do wid it?, we still looking for golden goose in many respects, how many new "Latas" heir apparent we pass through and yuh could argue dat anybody name "star" in we teams was "free" anyways, much to we detriment, ah particularly posted dat here because at a point members here would argue for need for a next Latas, I doh even subscribe to d concept of d focal creator mihself, d goal was perspective and debate which ah getting  :beermug:
I pity the fool....

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 02:59:16 PM »

Offline lefty

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I pity the fool....


Offline lefty

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2021, 08:38:55 PM »
Listen here from 30:30.

thank you

On point?

yes....yes it was.....the notion that tens didn't have to "work hard" off the ball was an exception rather then expectation in plenty cases it would seem.....dat is perhaps why yuh ozil\s and Mata\s started to struggle in d english game

as an aside, yuh tink Latas woulda be as well regarded if defensive work rate was ah yard stick for him....I doh really recall him putting in many tackles\interceptions

also what is your view of taking a page from d US and focusing we efforts on training solid fundamentals and fitness....like Whim had started to do.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 08:49:52 PM by lefty »
I pity the fool....

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 05:56:59 AM »
Listen here from 30:30.

thank you

On point?

yes....yes it was.....the notion that tens didn't have to "work hard" off the ball was an exception rather then expectation in plenty cases it would seem.....dat is perhaps why yuh ozil\s and Mata\s started to struggle in d english game

as an aside, yuh tink Latas woulda be as well regarded if defensive work rate was ah yard stick for him....I doh really recall him putting in many tackles\interceptions

also what is your view of taking a page from d US and focusing we efforts on training solid fundamentals and fitness....like Whim had started to do.

I don't know that that is an appropriate barometer by which to evaluate Russell Latapy.

Football-based fitness fundamentals are universal. Wim is a blip in my memory and I can't speak to him having a special sauce. I don't view the US as the leader in this field.

First there needs to be identification and agreement on what is fundamental. Then, at some point following that there should be innovation.

What do you mean by "off the ball"?

Offline lefty

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 01:13:41 PM »
Listen here from 30:30.

thank you

On point?

yes....yes it was.....the notion that tens didn't have to "work hard" off the ball was an exception rather then expectation in plenty cases it would seem.....dat is perhaps why yuh ozil\s and Mata\s started to struggle in d english game

as an aside, yuh tink Latas woulda be as well regarded if defensive work rate was ah yard stick for him....I doh really recall him putting in many tackles\interceptions

also what is your view of taking a page from d US and focusing we efforts on training solid fundamentals and fitness....like Whim had started to do.

I don't know that that is an appropriate barometer by which to evaluate Russell Latapy.

Football-based fitness fundamentals are universal. Wim is a blip in my memory and I can't speak to him having a special sauce. I don't view the US as the leader in this field.

First there needs to be identification and agreement on what is fundamental. Then, at some point following that there should be innovation.

What do you mean by "off the ball"?

Helping with defense pressing, helping to put out fire when yuh lose d ball....KJ used to annoy mih when he would jus stop after losing d ball dat cost us a few times with him,  den he wasn't ah ten....ah unseen and unsung creator though but dais ah topic for another day
I pity the fool....

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 06:20:04 PM »
Listen here from 30:30.

thank you

On point?

yes....yes it was.....the notion that tens didn't have to "work hard" off the ball was an exception rather then expectation in plenty cases it would seem.....dat is perhaps why yuh ozil\s and Mata\s started to struggle in d english game

as an aside, yuh tink Latas woulda be as well regarded if defensive work rate was ah yard stick for him....I doh really recall him putting in many tackles\interceptions

also what is your view of taking a page from d US and focusing we efforts on training solid fundamentals and fitness....like Whim had started to do.

I don't know that that is an appropriate barometer by which to evaluate Russell Latapy.

Football-based fitness fundamentals are universal. Wim is a blip in my memory and I can't speak to him having a special sauce. I don't view the US as the leader in this field.

First there needs to be identification and agreement on what is fundamental. Then, at some point following that there should be innovation.

What do you mean by "off the ball"?

Helping with defense pressing, helping to put out fire when yuh lose d ball....KJ used to annoy mih when he would jus stop after losing d ball dat cost us a few times with him,  den he wasn't ah ten....ah unseen and unsung creator though but dais ah topic for another day

You shouldn't view it as synonymous with non-possession of the ball.

Offline lefty

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Re: Evolution of the 10 (TIFO)
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2021, 01:41:27 PM »
Listen here from 30:30.

thank you

On point?

yes....yes it was.....the notion that tens didn't have to "work hard" off the ball was an exception rather then expectation in plenty cases it would seem.....dat is perhaps why yuh ozil\s and Mata\s started to struggle in d english game

as an aside, yuh tink Latas woulda be as well regarded if defensive work rate was ah yard stick for him....I doh really recall him putting in many tackles\interceptions

also what is your view of taking a page from d US and focusing we efforts on training solid fundamentals and fitness....like Whim had started to do.

I don't know that that is an appropriate barometer by which to evaluate Russell Latapy.

Football-based fitness fundamentals are universal. Wim is a blip in my memory and I can't speak to him having a special sauce. I don't view the US as the leader in this field.

First there needs to be identification and agreement on what is fundamental. Then, at some point following that there should be innovation.

What do you mean by "off the ball"?

Helping with defense pressing, helping to put out fire when yuh lose d ball....KJ used to annoy mih when he would jus stop after losing d ball dat cost us a few times with him,  den he wasn't ah ten....ah unseen and unsung creator though but dais ah topic for another day

You shouldn't view it as synonymous with non-possession of the ball.
ok ah kinda struggling to contextualize  dat response to respond
I pity the fool....

 

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