Beenhakker is ah boss

[palos]

Men obviously arguing fo rthe sake of it since everybody (barring one drunk man) in the poll agreed that Beenie has improved the team.

There's no doubt that Beenie has improved the team.......and no one can argue sensibly in favor of Bertille over Beenie.................but in the context of the question (read carefully).....it IS arguable whether or not he has significantly improved our chances..........

When Bertille left, we were in the dumps........now we still have a fighting chance at making a play-off.......so yes our chances have improved........the question is do you think that our chances have improved significantly under the new coach.........

I think it's a fair question......Beenie came in and had a very very tough job to do.....regardless of how great a coach he is, whether or not he has done his job is still a valid question.

The fact that with 2 games to go, we're in a very good position to qualify for a playoff is quite SIGNIFICANT in my opinion.  So my answer would be, given where we were when Beenie started...1 point from 3 games...2 of which were at home, a most definite YES!

[arrow]

Forgive me if I'm wrong...maths was never my strong point...but are we still not in with a very good chance of getting 4th and going to a playoff for a WC spot?

What really is allyuh point?

Yes I agree with everybody here that Beenie has improved the overall quality of our team's play, structure etc. but that is not the question that was originally asked in this poll/thread.  My point is that so far Beenie has achieved the results that were expected of him...nothing more, nothing less.  Home wins against our two weakest opponents and away losses to our three strongest.
So my point is that it is too early to tell if Beenie has made a significant difference to our chances of qualifying because, points wise, we are in the exact same position as I expected us to be in before he was hired (two wins at home vs our two weakest foes).  If he can pull off an away win against Panama then I can say 100% that he has improved our chances of qualifying because those would be 3 points that I was not counting on getting before he came on board.  That would be enough proof for me, I don't even care that we still need to win 3 or 4 matches in a row to qualify while we are yet to win two consecutive under Beenie.

[kicker]

Men obviously arguing fo rthe sake of it since everybody (barring one drunk man) in the poll agreed that Beenie has improved the team.

There's no doubt that Beenie has improved the team.......and no one can argue sensibly in favor of Bertille over Beenie.................but in the context of the question (read carefully).....it IS arguable whether or not he has significantly improved our chances..........

When Bertille left, we were in the dumps........now we still have a fighting chance at making a play-off.......so yes our chances have improved........the question is do you think that our chances have improved significantly under the new coach.........

I think it's a fair question......Beenie came in and had a very very tough job to do.....regardless of how great a coach he is, whether or not he has done his job is still a valid question.

The fact that with 2 games to go, we're in a very good position to qualify for a playoff is quite SIGNIFICANT in my opinion.  So my answer would be, given where we were when Beenie started...1 point from 3 games...2 of which were at home, a most definite YES!

fair enough.........I'm leaning towards agreeing with you........some however would argue that Guate has a big advantage going into these last two games.....so our chances are very slim, and hence have not improved significantly..........it's all a matter of how you see it, and that is whole point of a poll- it's solicits opinions.........so fire bun all de men who cry down the question as stupid, and can't understand how others would see it differently.

[palos]

Yes I agree with everybody here that Beenie has improved the overall quality of our team's play, structure etc. but that is not the question that was originally asked in this poll/thread.  My point is that so far Beenie has achieved the results that were expected of him...nothing more, nothing less.  Home wins against our two weakest opponents and away losses to our three strongest.
So my point is that it is too early to tell if Beenie has made a significant difference to our chances of qualifying because, points wise, we are in the exact same position as I expected us to be in before he was hired (two wins at home vs our two weakest foes).  If he can pull off an away win against Panama then I can say 100% that he has improved our chances of qualifying because those would be 3 points that I was not counting on getting before he came on board.  That would be enough proof for me, I don't even care that we still need to win 3 or 4 matches in a row to qualify while we are yet to win two consecutive under Beenie.

How many points at home were you expecting against USA, Costa Rica and Mexico BEFORE the start of the Hex?

[arrow]

How many points at home were you expecting against USA, Costa Rica and Mexico BEFORE the start of the Hex?

Before the Hex started based on our past results against those 3 regional powers I expected 4 points max (a home win vs costa rica and a draw home to Mexico considering our last game would be after they qualify).  And I expected a draw on the road to Panama.  And the 2 home wins we got.  11 points I thought could get us 4th as I expected Guatemala to get a few less points against Panama and the USA than they got. 
So again if/when Beenie can get us wins over Panama and Mexico (instead of the draws I expected) then he would have significantly improved our chances of qualifying.

[maxg]

agreed...buh yuh know how I cheap...at 800k a mth & a improved talent (latapy,Birchall, whitley to name a few...we better still have some chance), so at least BeenE doing his job, but there was not any doubt of that, was there ? or he wouldn't have been hired by Jack.

Bottom line though is if we don't at least get 4th, then BeenE would have failed...that was his mandate....It not over till it over

[Lower St. John]

I will repeat a quote made to me while walking out of the USA vs Trinidad game in Hartford from a respected football mind in Trinbago:

Think of Trinbago football as an experiment (since it is obvious that the decision makers are looking at it in this context also).  On one Table, stir a full glass of water (National team) with a small amount of sugar (player talent) with a rusty nail (BSC).  On the other Table, stir the same glass of water (National team) with the same small amount of sugar (player talent) with a gold spoon (Beenie Man).  Is there a discernible difference in the sweetness of the water (National Team) at the end of the experiment.  The answer is a resounding "NO".  The glass with the gold spoon will have a better appearance but that is about all.

Breaking it down, as a team we are not in the top 3-5 of Concacaf (add Jamaica and Honduras).  Our players are not as good as some folks on this site tend to believe (but one has to be either blind or a die hard to have that belief in the first place).  We may be in the Hex but that is as a result of the semifinal group we found ourselves in.  Plain talk bad manners.

Beenie Man as a result of his technical approach to the game has hidden a lot of our player deficiencies but he is not Mandrake so doh expect magic.  In my humble opinion we are no longer the laughing stock of Concacaf as was evident from our past overall approach to the game and the supposedly higher caliber of players in our ranks (foreign rather than local, which is a joke to me).  As a team, we still funny for days but we are not the walkover as in times past.  Putting it into true context this does not say much really.

The performance on the field has improved, sadly the improvement is not tantamount to improving our position in Concacaf (or the Hex) since the difference between ourselves and the upper echelon in Concacaf is much greater than many on this site want to acknowledge.

Touches recently had a post questioning our national team deserving to be in the World Cup, the fact is qualification is based on being in the top four of the Final Concacaf Hex and right now Beenie Man has brought us to the point that we can say that we are on par with the fourth place team Guatemala but certainly not the top three.  Credit should be given for that fact at least.

[dcs]

We are playing better football and that is indisputable...only a few hard headed bias people will say the quality of football is the same.  When is the last time we could say the players alone were the limiting factors which is how it should be?

Have our players gained anything from playing under Leo?
Are all their comments about the improvements meaningless?

Play better football and the results will follow.

[dcs]

rusty nail dipped in..........

[palos]

How many points at home were you expecting against USA, Costa Rica and Mexico BEFORE the start of the Hex?

Before the Hex started based on our past results against those 3 regional powers I expected 4 points max (a home win vs costa rica and a draw home to Mexico considering our last game would be after they qualify).  And I expected a draw on the road to Panama.  And the 2 home wins we got.  11 points I thought could get us 4th as I expected Guatemala to get a few less points against Panama and the USA than they got. 
So again if/when Beenie can get us wins over Panama and Mexico (instead of the draws I expected) then he would have significantly improved our chances of qualifying.

On the one hand, BEFORE the Hex, you EXPECTED us to get 11 points to get 4th including a home win against Costa Rica.

On the other hand, we now have 7 points and you saying Beenie will SIGNIFICANTLY improve our chances of qualifying ONLY if we beat both Panama & Mexico?

So you revising your EXPECTATIONS to 13 points instead of 11?

Seeing that Beenie began life as TD coach with us on 1 point from 3 games and not 3 points as YOU EXPECTED.....you don't think he has significantly improved our chances already by winning games that we HAD to win?

The fact is.....had we not conceded 5 goals against Guatemala in Guatemala, which many acknowledge would not have happened had Beenie been coach, we would not now be in the position of having to finish ahead of Guatemala to make 4th.

To be honest.....the way THIS team was playing and the "results" we were getting up to before the Panama home game, we are lucky we have not role reversed with Panama.  For that, I say Beenhakker has already SIGNIFICANTLY increased our chances.

[Mr Mc]

Beenie has been with the team less than 6 months, if we count the actual face time he has had with the team then we looking at less than 2 months...is it perhaps a lil early to expect SIGNIFICANT improvesments in the team??
since most of us agree that the team is playing better, maybe a better question is would BSC have been able to get this kind of play out of the players?

I think not!

[morvant]

yes i think he's made a difference giving the time he's been in charge. quality of play is up.

[Marcos]

Men obviously arguing fo rthe sake of it since everybody (barring one drunk man) in the poll agreed that Beenie has improved the team.

There's no doubt that Beenie has improved the team.......and no one can argue sensibly in favor of Bertille over Beenie.................but in the context of the question (read carefully).....it IS arguable whether or not he has significantly improved our chances..........

When Bertille left, we were in the dumps........now we still have a fighting chance at making a play-off.......so yes our chances have improved........the question is do you think that our chances have improved significantly under the new coach.........

I think it's a fair question......Beenie came in and had a very very tough job to do.....regardless of how great a coach he is, whether or not he has done his job is still a valid question.

The fact that with 2 games to go, we're in a very good position to qualify for a playoff is quite SIGNIFICANT in my opinion.  So my answer would be, given where we were when Beenie started...1 point from 3 games...2 of which were at home, a most definite YES!

fair enough.........I'm leaning towards agreeing with you........some however would argue that Guate has a big advantage going into these last two games.....so our chances are very slim, and hence have not improved significantly..........it's all a matter of how you see it, and that is whole point of a poll- it's solicits opinions.........so fire bun all de men who cry down the question as stupid, and can't understand how others would see it differently.

the question isn't stupid
it is rhetorical

[Touches]

For all the men who want to play diplomatic Beenie has done a REAL good job with this side!

We have moved from getting schooled from St Vincent and St kitts to being competitive with Mexico.

ALso lets look at other factors that woulda happen if Bertie were still in charge.

No Whitley

No Latas

No Spann

No Scotland

No Samuel

No Avery

We woulda see Derek King front and center, Nigel Pierre, Angus Eve still as captain, Rougier, Rojas, Tiger and Rahim woulda get more playing time.Cornell might have been there.

We woulda have the same long ball hit and hope that STern do something kinda play.

Beenie has improved the team in terms of defending, off the ball runs, possession, goal scoring opportunities and set plays.

If alyuh think they are still few then in the Bsc era they were non existant.

Also the little things that make a difference Beenie do that Bertie cyar dream off.

He tell the Mexicans to f&8k off and we train on the field NORMAL when they try to run us.

In St Vincent and St Kitts we train on field with goat and bottle and they rough we up.

I see beenie hold a ball, rough up a ball boy, signal to the official and make a important time wasting sub.

Also with Beenie we get something Bertie never get.........a new level of respect, from opponents, commentators and coaches.

 

[JERSEY TRINI]

For all the men who want to play diplomatic Beenie has done a REAL good job with this side!

We have moved from getting schooled from St Vincent and St kitts to being competitive with Mexico.

ALso lets look at other factors that woulda happen if Bertie were still in charge.

No Whitley

No Latas

No Spann

No Scotland

No Samuel

No Avery

We woulda see Derek King front and center, Nigel Pierre, Angus Eve still as captain, Rougier, Rojas, Tiger and Rahim woulda get more playing time.Cornell might have been there.

We woulda have the same long ball hit and hope that STern do something kinda play.

Beenie has improved the team in terms of defending, off the ball runs, possession, goal scoring opportunities and set plays.

If alyuh think they are still few then in the Bsc era they were non existant.

Also the little things that make a difference Beenie do that Bertie cyar dream off.

He tell the Mexicans to f&8k off and we train on the field NORMAL when they try to run us.

In St Vincent and St Kitts we train on field with goat and bottle and they rough we up.

I see beenie hold a ball, rough up a ball boy, signal to the official and make a important time wasting sub.

Also with Beenie we get something Bertie never get.........a new level of respect, from opponents, commentators and coaches.

 

Well said Touches, well said 

[Tongue]

yes! Yes! and YES!....since taking over from Bertile, Don Leo has made a significant difference to the football we playing and increased the chances for the playoffs with Asia. Yuh could hear dis from the players and we in the general public could see it wit we 2 'eye' unless yuh blind. Since taking over, he has been able to bring een men BSC didden want or didden recognise that dey could make a contribution to the team. In the matches played with BSC, none ah we had any idea what de arse was going on, but wit Don Leo we could see structure on the field....Is years we callin for some kinda of structure and now we have it...it came late buh say wha at least we have it...even the players (as one man already put it) know what their roles are...the training sessions making sence...a very professional environment and so on...better yet Don Leo eh moving like Saddam...but having his supporting cast play a role in the daily sessions and knowing how tuh talk tuh people..... now we hearing bout having a scout at opponents games....and video sessions....
All dem kinda ting does make ah difference oui! ah big friggin difference

[pass(10trini)]

Latas is de boss....u should change dat flicking name cause my boy doh talk dem kind ah shit........

Tallman . Flex alyuh take dis man off the site nah

[SHOTTA]

it is immaculatly obvious wat leo has dun to the warriors in term of solidifying the defense and scouting new talent whilst bringing out the best in the men he has available as well as tactical awareness
eg subbed on scotland wen we need a goal take him off wen we on top in order to solidify the defense



WHO D HELL SAID NO ON THE POLL?
COME GOOD WIT A REASON

[palos]

it is immaculatly obvious wat leo has dun to the warriors in term of solidifying the defense and scouting new talent whilst bringing out the best in the men he has available as well as tactical awareness
eg subbed on scotland wen we need a goal take him off wen we on top in order to solidify the defense



WHO D HELL SAID NO ON THE POLL?
COME GOOD WIT A REASON

Somebody pull a "KND".  Maybe is he self.

[Preacher]

Fellas I think the answers is a Yes and a No......Yes he has helped our team but or football in my opinion isn't any better.   
Beenie has the experience to make us look good but like he has said it's really is up to our play.....Translation: it's up to our football/natural game/ players/ability/read etc....

Under BSC this team was showing the same inconsistencies as it's showing now.  Yes we are playing better ball, thanks to a coach that know more or just as much as the oposition.

But our football is still mared by half takcles, poor marking, weak build up , ball lossing, and poor finishing.

Don't get me wrong I think Beenie is the man....But it is easier to play a good game that to produce a good football team.  We can get there if Beenie stay but all Beenie has done is use what was given to him. Big credit to him. You pull Beenie out of this equation now and you'll see we'll be back to sqaure one. 

So yes the team is playing better but there has been no significant change in our football.  It just to early fellas 2-3 games is not enough.

[Marcos]

For all the men who want to play diplomatic Beenie has done a REAL good job with this side!

We have moved from getting schooled from St Vincent and St kitts to being competitive with Mexico.

ALso lets look at other factors that woulda happen if Bertie were still in charge.

No Whitley

No Latas

No Spann

No Scotland

No Samuel

No Avery

We woulda see Derek King front and center, Nigel Pierre, Angus Eve still as captain, Rougier, Rojas, Tiger and Rahim woulda get more playing time.Cornell might have been there.

We woulda have the same long ball hit and hope that STern do something kinda play.

Beenie has improved the team in terms of defending, off the ball runs, possession, goal scoring opportunities and set plays.

If alyuh think they are still few then in the Bsc era they were non existant.

Also the little things that make a difference Beenie do that Bertie cyar dream off.

He tell the Mexicans to f&8k off and we train on the field NORMAL when they try to run us.

In St Vincent and St Kitts we train on field with goat and bottle and they rough we up.

I see beenie hold a ball, rough up a ball boy, signal to the official and make a important time wasting sub.

Also with Beenie we get something Bertie never get.........a new level of respect, from opponents, commentators and coaches.

 

Touches talk like a king there

[fishs]

I was in Barbados for the Gold Cup qualifications, and man we look baad.
I know some of you all might of been there and most likely everybody watch it on TV,
but if it was not for a brlliant Eve goal against Barbados we would not have made it to the finals, Barbados who we used to beat like bobolee in the past.
BSC didn't have a clue, I do not know what happened to this man, totally different to the last time he coached TT, if Jack did not fire him after he had take us to wc qualifying rounds and the gold cup semis then I still feel he would have done a much better job than Porterfield. But this is different times and he actually looked senile and lost in Barbados.
Beenie man doh look senile to me.

[Filho]

I eh going into all the resasons why I think Beenie significantly improve the team, but for those who argue that the home games against Panama and Guatemala not as difficult as the home games against USA and Costa Rica: On paper you are right,a nd I agree I was simplifying the situation...I doh want to write no essay...BUT
In reality the States didn't train until 2 weeks before the game because the US players was on strike and USA was preparing to come down here with a squad made up of A league men...remember dat.
Costa Rica was playing crap...and lost their first home game against Mexico without even giving a good fight. Even Mexico dog go to CR and win.They had barely scraped into the finals round and their coach got fired after the 0-0 in TnT, they were playing so poorly by their own standards.

I seriousy believe that under Beenie we would at least beat CR. In the end you cyah know for sure but with BSC we colect 5 in Guatee, play sh** everygame, get schooled by St Vincent, get rough up by Jamaica and Cuba in the Digicel and just scrape past Brabados to qualify for the Gold Cup. You want a direct comparison...look at how we play Mexico under the 2 coaches....

[kicker]

What a waste of a thread.

the majority of posts on this topic state the obvious- Beenie has improved our level of play.....

However, not many have talked to the actual question posed by the poll......

It's difficult to argue against an opinion that our play has improved.....I think it has improved quite a bit.

But have our chances of qualification significantly improved ?- that still remains up in the air in my opinion.

Under BSC our we were dead last, there was little to no sign of hope or improvement, but it was still early, so you could argue that there was still a chance that we would qualify. Mathematically we were in it. Mathematically we even still had a chance at automatic qualification. We were not knocked out yet.

Right now under Beenie, we have no chance of automatic qualification, and we're still one spot outside of making a play-off. I believe we can do it, but our chances are still relatively slim.

Beenie has done a good job- no doubt but :

this is a direct quote of the question posed by the poll "Has Beenhakker made a significant difference to  the Warriors' chances of qualification for WC 06?"................not whether or not he's improved our standard or play........can we see the difference ?

If we beat Panama next game, we'll have one foot in the door for the play off, and then I could say yes our chances of qualification have significantly improved

[football king]

well said kicker and hopefully the answer changes to a yes soon. 

[kicker]

well said kicker and hopefully the answer changes to a yes soon. 

Fingers crossed on one hand......... in the next.......

Go Warriors !!

[Filho]

I hear you kicker...but I see improved play as directly related to our chances. Since BSC did not get a chance to take us this far you can never really know where we would be with him at the helm at this point...understood. All we have is the hypothetical issue of whether our improved play is directly related to our position. I say yes. I feel that because we are playing better, we probably have more points and probably have a better goal difference than we would have under BSC. There are no solid facts to back it up, but I doh agree you could ignore the possibility our chances have improved significantly due to our perceived improvement in play. You can't use where we stood mathematically under BSC after 3 games because at the beginning of a tournament with 10 games to play you will always be in it mathematically even if you lose the first 3. So you can only answer this question using your perceived notion of a) whether we are playing better b) whether that improved play has potentially gotten us better results. I say yes for both. Under BSC we would be out already in my opinion.

[kicker]

You can't use where we stood mathematically under BSC after 3 games because at the beginning of a tournament with 10 games to play you will always be in it mathematically even if you lose the first 3.

Yes you can. If you're talking about chances of qualification, you have to take everything into consideration that determines your chances, and then see how Beenie, was able to act against such to significantly improve those chances. The fact that he came 3 games in, with only 1 point from 2 home games, just makes it more difficult for him to significantly improve our chances.

This issue is not a simple case of Beenie being a good coach. It's about him taking a position at a time when there was alot stacked against him....he could have came in at the last game when we were down and out  and transformed us into Brazil, and still not affected our chances.

I don't see this as Beenie vs Bertille, argument as many have twisted it to be, or else it would not be worth posting......Beenie is better than Bertille full stop.............. and it's way more than if he just improved our absolute level of play......

It's more relative..............eg.The degree to which he would have to improve our level of play to significantly improve our chances after 3 games is greater than if it were after 1 game etc.........

I see it as a Beenie vs. a very difficult situation, where it would be very difficult for any coach to come in and significantly improve our chances.......... and as far as I'm concerned he still has 2 games left to significantly improve our chances.

.....at least that's how I see it.

[Filho]

Cool ting.....but that is only one interpretation of a very open question. I believe it can also be answered as a hypothetical question taking into account our perception of where the team is now vs. where it might have been without Beenie...which in this case means, with Bertille. If you assume that BSC would be in charge instead of Beenie then it can be taken as a comparison to where we are with Beenie vs. where we could possibly have been with BSC. Hence the comparisons. Sure there is no objective way to answer this, but to come up with an answer any other way would involve a host of parameters, some of which have nothing to do with Beenie and how he has affected our chances, such as number of games played, number of games remaining, home vs. away games, results of other games. Since I believe that in essence this question was posted for people to opine on how well Beenie has done, then there is more than one way to approach it.

[arrow]

Kicker - I read the question of this thread the same way as you and I agree with you it is still to early to say right now.  Nobody here has put forth any argument that he has not improved the level of our play, any blind man can see that.  But results and points wise, Beenie has done nothing more or less than what was expected of him as things stand today.  He has yet to pull off any upsets versus the Concacaf Big 3.  He has yet to win any competitive match away from Trinidad soil.  Only when he achieves one or both of those feats then I will say he has significantly improved our chances of qualifying because if he doesn't we ent going nowhere.
And I agree this is a waste of time thread, people only stating and re-stating the obvious and not answering the initial question which was only posed because we have nothing better to talk about until the next game.