Are TNT players innately talented or are they products of a .......?

[AB.Trini]

Are players naturally born with an inclination and  with profond talent or are they  products of a system/ program , training or both?

Watching some EPL this morning (Newcastle and Liverpool), and saw a documentry on the 2006 world cup. IT was encouraging t see the type of game, determination, grit, conditioning, passion and skill that teams like Senegal, Korea and even Japan displayed in achieving the  quality of success during that World Cup run. On the other hand, it was intriguing watching how a power house like France, played thier games, did not score a goal and was oust after the first round. 

Now ah  cyar help but refelct on meh old coaches saying tuh the side when we  are about to play big teams: 'look they wear the shorts the same, put them on the same and run the same" Simple? but at what points do the comparisons stop? what distinguishes Brazil from us? Before  you begin to  list all the advantages let's consider this.

How does a player of Dwight Yorke's calibre, develop the skills and talent to leave Tobago and play at the pinnacle of football in the U.K? was he an anomally? talented/gifted? or a product of a system/ training or program? If it was  a system/ program or training why have we not produced more of his calibre?

If in fact Dwight was innately gifted/ talented (much like  a Brian Lara or Ato or Hasley or Bovell) then by the law of averages and population, we are not due for another in a while? On the other hand why is it that countries like Brazil or even England sees to have a stronger proclivity  for more 'talented/giftedness' players?

I go back to the game and as I watch this match, I know that whether we  have players who are gifted/talented or products of a system/training, our team will need to play at a different standard come World Cup.

We need to get our house in order beginning  with solidifying friendlies. This will give our players  some focus  of potential opposition and serve as menatl preparation from now. I will not beat this dead horse issue but I find with  different teams  having alrready declared their friendlies, it appears that we are back in a normative style of waiting for  'a last minute thing or two' This begs the question do we rely on the pure talent of our players or on the program/training etc........

[TrinInfinite]

when aston villa scouted Yorke, dey werent dere for him, dere was another player much better than yorke that they came to scout, but dat players parents didnt want him 2 leave tobago.

[palos]

when aston villa scouted Yorke, dey werent dere for him, dere was another player much better than yorke that they came to scout, but dat players parents didnt want him 2 leave tobago.

Please inform us who this player is/was?

Thanks

[kounty]

it seem like when I was growing up EVERYBODY everywhere was kicking smal l goal, in every little parking lot, and in every little street.  It seem like in the mid 80's  cars couldn't just drive into streets, cuz was big sweat going on every evening.  Is it just me, or yuh doh really see that anymore?  Them same fellas on the block maybe out planning kidnappings and crime...or maybe they scared that if they go out there, they will be the victim of crime.  I like to believe it was this culture of football everywhere that led to the success of '89..and the continued succcess of Brazil - a partner of mine tell me many sweats going on in Brazil 2-3am  on the beach any night of the week.
hopefully with all the hype of the next Wc maybe we will have an uprising of the grass roots ball again, and our game will improve internationally.

[MEP]

Talent without nuturing and development is just that...talent.. We have players with good talent but they have not been developed into great players.

[RGarcia]

YEAH I THINK THAT IN TRINIBAGO SPORTS IS INSTINCT BECAUSE ALMOST EVERYONE I KNOW IS AN ATHELETE BECAUS ETHE CAN PLAY SOMETYPE OF SPORT. WE ARE JUST A TALENTED BUNCH OF PEOPLE.

[Touches]

Alyuh go get vex with me but we are not more talented than any other country and in fact we are lagging behind.

In terms of population and numbers we are already at a disadvantage and "talent" is a relative term.

What may be considered talent in one area or country could be seen as medicore or average in another.

We in TT are living in a big fish-small pond mentality and it is evident when players have to make the adjustment.

The under 15 tournament was a good example of this, this was our supposed best talent on display.......even though everybody know some player who shoulda make the side, but the fact was our players were inept and out of their league vs Guatemala. and Canada and Jamaica showed that their talent was better than ours.

Also the little two by four coaching schools we have here can prepare you for a college team or a PFL team. It is not the calibre of any academy such as Bradenton, Lilleshall, Ajax  or Le Fontaine etc to churn out a big international player.

Yorke while special was created in Aston Villa. He was only 17 and was young and they had the time to mould him into the deadly player he was in Manu.

Latapy is the only real genuine talent that was on a TT squad in the last few years.

Doe get tie up every country have men who could tun yuh up and play good. The most skillful players I see in Florida were not Trinis but Haitians.

Look at how Costa Rica school us in Saprissa stadium...up to now Cox cyar see he way and Cyd I sure still having flashbacks from Medford and Wanchope in the last campaign under Porters.

Also if any of you remeber this TT used to send teams such as Alcons etc to youth tournaments such as Dallas Cup. We used to have literally a national team of the best players in the under 19 category and we used to get WASH, normal normal right tru. A TT team never make a mark on any of them tournaments.

We doe cut it any any level, we only qualify for one youth WC, and we never see an olympics, so in essence we fail at all levels.

Our schoolboy side went JA and get wash, but it is only because there were no Fatima players in the squad.

Let us not fool ourselves......we ent all that, we not producing nuttin and we dont have the infrastructure to create any world class players.

Just say thanks alyuh see a TT team in a WC.........is plenty prayers make that happen!

[MEP]

Touches I think we do have talent at home... lots of it raw natural talent..our players are likecane...if  you stick it in your cup your tea still wouldn't get sweet...the cane has to be processed first....we have players with great technical abilities...the problem is the game is 99% above the neck and we don't have coaches can develop that part of the game. Prime example is what Beenie has done with basically the same team BSC had.

[Pointman]

Alyuh go get vex with me but we are not more talented than any other country and in fact we are lagging behind.

In terms of population and numbers we are already at a disadvantage and "talent" is a relative term.

What may be considered talent in one area or country could be seen as medicore or average in another.

We in TT are living in a big fish-small pond mentality and it is evident when players have to make the adjustment.

The under 15 tournament was a good example of this, this was our supposed best talent on display.......even though everybody know some player who shoulda make the side, but the fact was our players were inept and out of their league vs Guatemala. and Canada and Jamaica showed that their talent was better than ours.

Also the little two by four coaching schools we have here can prepare you for a college team or a PFL team. It is not the calibre of any academy such as Bradenton, Lilleshall, Ajax  or Le Fontaine etc to churn out a big international player.

Yorke while special was created in Aston Villa. He was only 17 and was young and they had the time to mould him into the deadly player he was in Manu.

Latapy is the only real genuine talent that was on a TT squad in the last few years.

Doe get tie up every country have men who could tun yuh up and play good. The most skillful players I see in Florida were not Trinis but Haitians.

Look at how Costa Rica school us in Saprissa stadium...up to now Cox cyar see he way and Cyd I sure still having flashbacks from Medford and Wanchope in the last campaign under Porters.

Also if any of you remeber this TT used to send teams such as Alcons etc to youth tournaments such as Dallas Cup. We used to have literally a national team of the best players in the under 19 category and we used to get WASH, normal normal right tru. A TT team never make a mark on any of them tournaments.

We doe cut it any any level, we only qualify for one youth WC, and we never see an olympics, so in essence we fail at all levels.

Our schoolboy side went JA and get wash, but it is only because there were no Fatima players in the squad.

Let us not fool ourselves......we ent all that, we not producing nuttin and we dont have the infrastructure to create any world class players.

Just say thanks alyuh see a TT team in a WC.........is plenty prayers make that happen!

ah ent vex wid you at all nah. I think it's all about the SYSTEM, if there is no system in place the talent (and we DO have talent) will go to waste. We need to impliment systems for the youth to develop their skills like they do in S. America. I don't believe that Brazilian kids are NATURALLY more talented than ours but they are definitely more hungry and they have SYSTEMS in place in Brazil and other countries to develop those talented youth.

[kaliman2006]

I have to agree with Pointman. Our local system is the problem. I knew a lot of people growing up that could easily have played football for T&T, but chose a different life path. I remember Tommy Smith bigging up T&T's prospects during the '94 qualifying campaign during a match against the U.S. So if he, as a respected commentator, could have seen the potential in our team then, what is the difference now. As I'm sure everyone knows, great teams are not made overnight. The United States used to get licks left, right and center before they became a good team. This World Cup should be looked as a springboard for great things in Trinidad and Tobago football and not as a 'flash in the plan' or one tournament wonder.

[john_public]

is not dat we eh have de talent. u could see natural talent in any community, but develoupment has failed us, most ah de youths eh seein any reason to take football serious casue if u eh going a "prestigue school" no body eh gonna see u. most ah we tallented players fallin on de side gettin in weed and alco. as for dat team dat dem carry ja, no body could convince me da is we best team.  .  in order to make it in anyting here sport or jus life u have special address, dat eh sayin some eh go make it out de getto, but few ah dem.

[Bourbon]

Talent without training makes no sense. You could be how talented but once the refining of that skill isnt done, it will never gain its full potential.The local system of planning is one of the primary letdowns.i remember this year i was in the states and seeing the efficiency of their youth training programs and the calibre of organisation of a regional sports meet was even higher than our own national games. This isnt in football alone, its in every aspect of sport. What we lack as a country is a foward system of planning.Not jus a prepare today for next week ting.I glad to see that 2014 project underway cause knowing some of the men they called for training, it have good hope for the future.Brazil now......football is a way of life.EVERYBODY love football,everybody does play football.they dont see football as just a sweat, they are trying to glean the best of their potential. In terms of the talent i think we have a fair amount, but without the correct planning and systems in place, it jus wasting.

[OutsideMan]

when aston villa scouted Yorke, dey werent dere for him, dere was another player much better than yorke that they came to scout, but dat players parents didnt want him 2 leave tobago.

Please inform us who this player is/was?


Thanks

Palos, if my memory serves correct, I think it was Hutchinson.  You may may want to confirm that, though.  The way i remember it back then was that both Yorke and Hutchinson were on trials with Aston Villa, but it was said that Hutchinson in training, often complianed of the chilly conditions on the practice pitch.  Those complaints didn't down go too well with the Aston Villa coaches, who noted that Yorke played regardless of the conditions.  

[College]

Colvin was a boss, but going back to the issue at hand. T&T have talent like anyone else in the football world, one of our problem is lack of planning and managerial skill to compete at the international level (listen to the interview with JB). We dont have (as yet) a tradition football tradition like England or Germany etc.  Secondly, is our culture, we are so laid back and this attitude sometimes transfers to our work/profession and yes, our sport. We like to prepare for two weeks for a big tourney. Just like Carnival  , when 1 year of work is mostly completed between Christmas and February or  look how sometime we like to stay up 'till 2:00 o'clock Christmas morning baking ham and sewing curtain.

Our work ethic is poor (except for Carnival )and this is one area the US will always kill us in.. Ask anyone who played college ball in the US, when they come back to Trini and play against local players, they find themselves playing at much faster pace, with more urgency and with a greater work rate. We have to start developing not just the skill and talent of younger players (this i believe is natural an God given)but of equal importance , we have to develop their attitude towards the game... sorry for the long post I new at this..

[gtokyo]

It was Colvin Hutchinson from Signal Hill l.  He went on trial to Villa as well but Graham Taylor could only choose one player. Being that Yorke was younger, he opted to choose and mold him into a player they wanted.  They felt even though Hutchinson did well on trail, he was a little too old and they already had players like him at a younger age.

[Jefferz]

It was Colvin Hutchinson from Signal Hill l.  He went on trial to Villa as well but Graham Taylor could only choose one player. Being that Yorke was younger, he opted to choose and mold him into a player they wanted.  They felt even though Hutchinson did well on trail, he was a little too old and they already had players like him at a younger age.

it was a shame becuase it would seem like he wasnt good enough and it might have just tainted his rep...

[trinidad badboy]

tnt have reall raw talented youths but we have no system like brazil or usa to rasie them to attain their full potintial



we need a system that works.... so our future will be bright...

[morgz]

First of I must congratulate the guys behind this site. I've been reading all year and have been both entertained and informed by all the opinions and news I was able to read here.
Keep up the good work.

Now then onto this topic,first off there is no shortage of talented players in T&T. However talent with no system which encourages hard work or drive will always bring dissapoinments, since raw talent with no direction can only get one so far.

A lot of us like to bad talk Dwight,Latas,Stern etc.Yes they made mistakes and at times even dissapointed us the fans but they're only human. Remember they turned raw talent into something recognised over the world.

The ttff and by extention we the fans are responsible for the state of our football after all with all the local leagues how many of us are willing to pay to watch.How many of us place our young rising footballers upon pedestals thus spoiling their ability.How many of us own a jablotech/joe public/w connection kit that we wear proudly.

Yes we have a lot of raw talent unfortunately our players lack the drive to be the very best they can be.Ask any college player back home for the holidays about the regimens they had to adapt to when it came to their training.

Clubs no longer rush for raw talent thats why Ronaldhino/Esien were bought by Barca/Chelsea after they adapted at European football same as Dwight

YES WE HAVE A LOT OF TALENT ENOUGH TO GET TO THE WC BUT ONLY DRIVE (COMPETITIVENESS,HARDWORK etc) CAN MAKE US WINNERS
 
        GOD BLESS US ALL FOR THE NEW YEAR. BE SAFE       

[palos]

when aston villa scouted Yorke, dey werent dere for him, dere was another player much better than yorke that they came to scout, but dat players parents didnt want him 2 leave tobago.

Please inform us who this player is/was?


Thanks

Palos, if my memory serves correct, I think it was Hutchinson.  You may may want to confirm that, though.  The way i remember it back then was that both Yorke and Hutchinson were on trials with Aston Villa, but it was said that Hutchinson in training, often complianed of the chilly conditions on the practice pitch.  Those complaints didn't down go too well with the Aston Villa coaches, who noted that Yorke played regardless of the conditions.  

Yeah fidel, I know about Hutchinson but TrinInfinte say de player who Aston Villa REALLY came for was some player much better than Dwight Yorke but the player parents didn't want him to leave so dey pick Dwight instead, which is grossly inaccurate.  In any case, even if it were Colvin Hutchinson he meant, to say that Hutchinson was a much better player (and he was quite decent) than Dwight at that time is plain asinine.

I have a copy of the Dwight Yorke autobiography written by Hunter Davies and it cleary states that Aston Villa came to play a 2 match series, one against the Strike Squad which Villa won 1-0 and one against a Tibago XI which Villa won 5-0.  Yorke played in both matches, matter of fact, in the game for Tobago, he suited up with Aston Villa in the 2nd half on the invitation of Villa coach Graham Taylor as they wanted to see how he looked with them.

Davies further goes on to say "Villa had decided if they were bringing over one player, they might as well have another at the same time, just in case" and that "other player" turned out to be Colvin Hutchinson....exactly the opposite of what TrinInfinite is saying.

So I still waiting to find out who this "much better player than Yorke, who Aston Villa came especially to see but the player parents didn't want him to go" is.  Perhaps TrinInfinite know de inside story better dan Davies who interviewed among others, BSC, Neil Wilson (Dwight's Manager) and Orville London (principal at Scarborough High, Signal Hill and eventually leader of THA). Maybe TrinInfinite did a phone interview with Dwight back in the day.  Who knows?

The only Tobago player who could be considered "better" than Dwight Yorke in those days was Wendell Moore and he sure as hell wasn't 17 at that time.

By the way for the trivia buffs, Davies also says that the first Tobagonian to play professionally abroad was John Granville who had 5 games with Millwall in 1985.  Also, when Wendell Moore was 16 he went on a trial with Bristol City under Bobby Gould but sadly nothing came of it.

[capodetutticapi]

we always had the talent but according to the majority of you all we definitly need a system and infrastructure to harness it and produce some serious skills on the field.brazilians live and die for football.man woman and child.that GOAL 2014 invitation should have been done long long time ago.

[Baygo Boy]

Aston Villa never came to Tobago to look for players, but yes their was another Tobagonian that they had identified - the story behind him may be a little embarassing to the player, all I can say is that he was and still is considered by many to be the best striker to come out of Canaan/Bon Accord. He is also a few years older that Dwight and Hutchie.

[Baygo Boy]

Gentlemen, I suggest that you don't accept everything you read. First of all I was in the park when Villa played Tobago, and Dwight did not suit up for Villa, Villa requested it but were turned down. Also at the time Dwight was not the best player in Tobago, and certainly was not the best on the Tobago squad that day, he was however, the youngest, and his ability at that age was outstanding. During that period Hutchie was indeed the better player, but still wasn't as good as the player Trini spoke of.

If you were to speak to Tobagonians that followed Tobago football during that period, then you will hear, Just ask Dwight former coaches at Phoenix and even Bertille (let's remember that both players played for St.Clair, and the other player didn't) to name the top strikers in Tobago at that time, and I assure you that Dwight would not have cracked the top 5. Dwight himself mentioned the many players he played against in Tobago that were "better" players than he was.

Aston Villa, was looking for a player that they can develop, and Dwight and Hutchie fit the bill, they were both very young and very talented.

[Touches]

Could you please educate us as to who these Mystery players are.

I am curious, if you do not wish to post a name please PM me.

I would appreciate the feedback

[Baygo Boy]

Palos, get your facts straight Wendell was not even in Tobago when Villa came, he was at CW Post pursuing a degree, and I repeat - Villa never expected to find talent in Tobago, they did not come to Tobago to search for talent, as a matter of fact - their decision to come to Tobago was a last minute decision, and they certainly weren't looking towards CONCACAF for talent especially during that period.

Prior to Villa's arrival in Tobago folks like Neil Wilson had no dealing with Tobago football, he was however, a well known business man with good negotiation skills, and a friend of St.Clair, his son also trained under BSC during that time.

[palos]

Palos, get your facts straight Wendell was not even in Tobago when Villa came, he was at CW Post pursuing a degree, and I repeat - Villa never expected to find talent in Tobago, they did not come to Tobago to search for talent, as a matter of fact - their decision to come to Tobago was a last minute decision, and they certainly weren't looking towards CONCACAF for talent especially during that period.

Prior to Villa's arrival in Tobago folks like Neil Wilson had no dealing with Tobago football, he was however, a well known business man with good negotiation skills, and a friend of St.Clair, his son also trained under BSC during that time.

When you can first learn to read and comprehend instead of launching attacks, then address me.

[Baygo Boy]

Palos, get your facts straight Wendell was not even in Tobago when Villa came, he was at CW Post pursuing a degree, and I repeat - Villa never expected to find talent in Tobago, they did not come to Tobago to search for talent, as a matter of fact - their decision to come to Tobago was a last minute decision, and they certainly weren't looking towards CONCACAF for talent especially during that period.

Prior to Villa's arrival in Tobago folks like Neil Wilson had no dealing with Tobago football, he was however, a well known business man with good negotiation skills, and a friend of St.Clair, his son also trained under BSC during that time.

When you can first learn to read and comprehend instead of launching attacks, then address me.

Palos, what attacks, my days for combat are long gone, if I were to ever ATTACK you - you won't be in a position to respond - I did not attack you - I simply stated that you should get your facts straight. I am not here to attack anyone that will be counter productive my friend.

You did state that the only player that could be considered better than Dwight during that period was Wendell, that is not true . The fact is that Wendell was indeed the best overall player to play during that period , but Dwight wasn't No 2, Dwight himself said that there were players better than him, but he looked up to Wendell, and tried to be the type of player Wendell was.

[trinidre]

I think T&T players are very talented but that talent needs to be nurtured to be able to peform at the professional level, i doh know how it is now but back in the day everybody use to be in the streets sweating and you would see real skillful men playing....plus I use to play for alvin corneal coaching school at U-17 and U-19 level and i think they did a good job coaching the best school players at the time preparing us for the professional game and every year we would come to a tournament in the US where alot of guys got recruited for college teams so the raw talent is there but it just needs to be nurtured

[palos]

Palos, get your facts straight Wendell was not even in Tobago when Villa came, he was at CW Post pursuing a degree, and I repeat - Villa never expected to find talent in Tobago, they did not come to Tobago to search for talent, as a matter of fact - their decision to come to Tobago was a last minute decision, and they certainly weren't looking towards CONCACAF for talent especially during that period.

Prior to Villa's arrival in Tobago folks like Neil Wilson had no dealing with Tobago football, he was however, a well known business man with good negotiation skills, and a friend of St.Clair, his son also trained under BSC during that time.

When you can first learn to read and comprehend instead of launching attacks, then address me.

Palos, what attacks, my days for combat are long gone, if I were to ever ATTACK you - you won't be in a position to respond - I did not attack you - I simply stated that you should get your facts straight. I am not here to attack anyone that will be counter productive my friend.

You did state that the only player that could be considered better than Dwight during that period was Wendell, that is not true . The fact is that Wendell was indeed the best overall player to play during that period , but Dwight wasn't No 2, Dwight himself said that there were players better than him, but he looked up to Wendell, and tried to be the type of player Wendell was.

Boss...u have your views....I have mine.  You say that Wendell wasn't eve in Tobago when Villa came.  When did I ever say or even infer that Wendell Moore was in Tobago during the Villa visit?  You went on to say I said Villa came to Tobago scouting for talent when I made no such statement.  As far as Neil Wilson is concerned, what exactly is your point about him not being involved in football prior to being Dwight's agent.  Did anyone claim any differently?

You seem to have some kinda bee in your bonnet bout Tobago but dat is your issue, not mine.  I not gettin in no pissin match wit you especially as you seem to know your piss so well.  You seem to be the expert on Tobago football.  You appear to know it all so go ahead and let your vessel be heard loud and clear.

[Baygo Boy]

Palos, yuh really need to stop. I have never attacked you, and I have no intentions of ever doing so. Why are you so disturbed that I am advocating Tobago footballing issues - I am no expert on Tobago football, and I never claimed that, I am simply attempting to discuss Tobago football, or maybe this site is only about Trinidad ball.

To think that I held you in high regard just based on the quality of your posts. I am beginning to believe that you don't like to be informed - if that is the case then I am soory - I will attempt to curb my educational content when responding to your post.

 

[doc]

Palos, yuh really need to stop. I have never attacked you, and I have no intentions of ever doing so. Why are you so disturbed that I am advocating Tobago footballing issues - I am no expert on Tobago football, and I never claimed that, I am simply attempting to discuss Tobago football, or maybe this site is only about Trinidad ball.

To think that I held you in high regard just based on the quality of your posts. I am beginning to believe that you don't like to be informed - if that is the case then I am soory - I will attempt to curb my educational content when responding to your post.

 

Easy bagoboy, they haven't found the diagnosis for his condition, it quite complex so doh bodder wit it