Author Topic: Beenie Man did NOT Experiment!! (Read 4538 times)

arrow · « **on:** July 13, 2005, 07:39:32 AM »

People on this board keep alluding to the fact that we were experimenting in this Gold Cup as the reason why we lost. Truth be told that we were the only team that brought the vast majority of our World Cup Squad to the Gold Cup and played them. The only one missing was Yorke, and Edwards was injured.

Look at the squad vs Mexico and the squad vs Honduras. Three changes were made: Cyd Gray for Charles, Rahim for Edwards and Scotland for Yorke. Is this what we call experimenting? If Edwards was fit and Yorke was there I can guarantee you they would have played too.
So we really made one experiment which was 30 something year-old Cyd Gray who has been tried and failed umpteen times in the past. Brilliant.

After that match we were forced to make a few changes. Spann comes in for Whitely because he was injured - if not Spann probably would not have gotten a chance to play at all. That was NOT an experiment. Samuel comes in on the left because the coach finally sees after 5 games that Theobald is not a left winger. So he switches him to the right for Rahim. This is the ONLY experiment we made - no other changes.

Colombia game now. Strikers have been ineffective for two games. Jones sitting on the bench. So we stick with the same 2 strikers. Glen comes in OUT OF POSITION on the left and Samuel moves to the right. ONE experiment was made in the starting lineup and it was DOOMED to fail from the beginning. Half time what do we do? Take off Glen and bring in Rahim? take off scotland and bring in Eve to strike? Were we really trying to see what Eve can do as striker in preparation for the USA game? What a joke. Atiba finally gets a chance to play because of injury, no experiment there.

So lets summarize these wild and crazy experiments that Beenie was making:
Jacks plays all 3 games
Avery plays all 3 games
Andrews plays all 3 games
Lawrence plays all 3 games
Gray plays all 3 games
Birchall plays all 3 games
Stern plays all 3 games
Scotland plays all 3 games because Yorke not there
Spann plays 2 games because of injury to Whitely
Samuel gets a sub appearance and 2 full games on the wing because of Edwards injury
Theobald plays 2 games, Rahim a game and a half (both players also featured against Mexico)

Meanwhile
Glen gets a 8 mins sweat and a full half in the wrong position
Jones gets two 20-minute sub appearances
Eve gets a full half as a striker??? Plus a sub appearance on the wing
Atiba gets a small sweat becuase of injury to Andrews

Experimenting with players was NOT the reason why we lost!

Trini · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2005, 07:52:00 AM »

maybe throw in the fact that Honduras and Colombia are perhaps slighty better than us at the moment?

Sam · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2005, 07:54:17 AM »

Why was Samuel on the right wing Â and he played so good on the left, why fix something if its not broken.
Why was Glen on the left wing when he showed he can come on and score goals up front.
Why was Cyd Gray still playing after the first 2 games, we needed to win this game and Gray makes to much mistakes at the back.
Why Jones didn't play in place of Stern John after having 4/5/6 bad games in a row for T&T.
Why Spann make de team only because useless Whitley injured.
Why wait till we last important game to get any answers.
Why start the game with 3 strikers and play a 4-5-1 formation.

VS COL this would have been better.

Jack
Charles, Andrews, Lawrence, Avery
Birchall, Eve, Spann, Samuel
John, Jones.

Try yuh best to keep players in they rightfull or prefered position, they will perform better and Bennie man found this out yesterday, he had to make to quick subs.

AB.Trini · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:11:59 AM »

These are very interesting revelations.

FACT: we had avery experienced WCQ squad.

Reactment: Hence one of the reasons that many including myself feel such utter disappointment in the team's performance NOT the Individual. Let's separate the Individual from the perormance. I do not iwsh to get into a name calling at this time. I believe as a team, something is lacking.

FACT: Even though we had a majority of our players, systems, adjustments and the fact that Stern John was captian and playes all games throughout must be an experiment of sorts.

I don't believe that we lost because of experimentation but nevertheless, some methods, strategies were tried and they did not produce the desierd results. End of story. Lessons Learned. Time to Refoucs WCQ August 17th USA.
Arrow follow up on the ideas about the guys who were used sparringly; how might these palyers contribute differently if they were given more time on the field. This is now speculation but what role do you see these players playing in a revised game plan?

royal · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:11:04 AM »

Would'nt it be nice to pick and play men in their rightful position at this level.That means you have a choice between Edwards and Birchall instead of moving one into central midfield.A man playing out of position could affect his game tremendously.In choosing a side you must go through the needs of the team and the position men play and pick the best ones.Even in basketball you doh see a guard trying to play the center position.Obviously there are exceptions to any rule like Rougier but in general please pick men by position!

Hyperhot J · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:26:22 AM »

All he had to do was NOT START STERN in at least 1 of those games!!! That is ALL!!! If Jones, or Glenn started and were not effective and Stern came back on and kept his place at LEAST we could have a reason for John due to the other shitbility, but instead it was Stern's shithoungness that KEPT him on the team!?!? I don't understand. Same with Gray?!?!? Atiba Charles did an EXCELLENT job against Panama and Mexico but get throw out in the tournament. Boy this coach bigging up the assholes on the team and de-motivating our best hopes!! I pray he changes yes!!! Seeing John and Gray toting water would have been the BEST experiments for Beenie but NO, so we got the results by having one water boy be striker - did nothing, and another defend, conceded or helped in conceding about 3 goals in the tournament. So basically these 2 players (who I hope WERE the experiments to never play or start again) actually gave T&T a -3 goal position in the tournament. Great experiment Leoni, time for the REAL players on Aug. 17th!!

kicker · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:00:07 PM »

What are you trying to say ? that he did not experiment, or that experimenting was not the reason we lost.........Your point is getting a little mixed up in your rant and rave..

I agree that experimenting was not the reason we were unsuccesful. There are many reasons why we did poorly.......player selection probably being the least signifcant. Let's be honest-none of our players are really that pivotal, and have the ability to lift our performance to a degree that would have won us the tournament. Yorke and Edwards would have made a difference, but to think that we'd be a strong squad with them is wishful thinking......If we find the right combination of guys, include our strongest players, and play them consistently over time, sure we'd be a better squad but in this tournament we just were not good enough.

To say the he did NOT experiment (as per your subject title) however, is an unintelligent statement. As long as Beenie has not made a final decision on what his line up is for the W.C., then the Gold Cup team can be considered experimental. An experiment is just a test that can be carried out to different degrees. A coach can experiement with the same line up for multiple games if he desires. Yes he didn't use all of the options/alternatives to the degree that he could have, but given the longer term vision of the football campaign, it has to be said that this squad was an experiment......if not, then God help us.

davidephraim · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:22:11 PM »

The Experimenting you talking about kicker, yuh can do that against Jabloteh or North East Stars, when yuh get out on de big field we aint looking for how man fit in position, or who go play here today or there tomorrow but rather how de man fit in de Team and how the Team fit amongst Other Teams. How de Team bouncing de ball. If it is still If Dog could play forward or not, then God help us...

And Beenieman should have a practice game this weekend with his local nationals + players coaches see as fit for National Duty VS some PFL club. Every Blasted week if necessary, and aint Lincoln the Scout, well go scout buddy, because from Beenieman statements either he have something up he sleeve or he is slowly slipping into complacency be it because of boredom or scaredom...

Like he tryin to make de Brasilian de Best we ever had and he only hang out before he get expelled.

Back to de Lab with dat.

arrow · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:40:42 PM »

Quote from: kicker on July 13, 2005, 12:00:07 PM

What are you trying to say ? that he did not experiment, or that experimenting was not the reason we lost.........Your point is getting a little mixed up in your rant and rave..

I think you know what I meant but are just trying to be difficult. Â But just to humour you this is the definition of the word experiment as used in the context of my post
experiment (verb): Â "to try something new, as in order to gain experience"

So you mean to say that if he used the exact same lineup as he did in the Mexico game throughout the Gold Cup (which is nearly true) then the Gold Cup squad is still an experimental one until he picks the next world cup squad? Â So when does the experiment end by your definition?

What I meant is that people are using the excuse that Beenie was using this tournament primarily to see new players, experiment with different lineups etc. and winning was not the main objective of this tournament. Â This is simply not the case - we used primarily our same WCQ team with only a few exceptions mostly due to injuries. Â Make no mistake we came to win and WE FAILED to even play proper football. Â Teams like the USA, Costa Rica and Mexico brought in players that have never even earned an int'l cap prior to this tournament. Â Now THAT is what I would call experimenting.

Hyperhot J · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:10:09 PM »

"Like he tryin to make de Brasilian de Best we ever had and he only hang out before he get expelled.

Back to de Lab with dat."

Simoes WAS the best coach we ever had in a long time, we all know that. Unfortunately we could not afford him. If he was still with us, it would have been from since 2001 until now and WE WOULD be a better team regardless of who was playing.

Jason.

kicker · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:29:51 PM »

I wasn't trying to be difficult, I was just trying to understand your point..........Just because he didn't make the changes and the subs that you figured were the best decisions, doesn't mean that he was not experimenting........That's all I was saying.

I believe that he did experiment. Some of the G.Cup players probably messed up their future chances at the end of this test. I believe that to a certain extent he was giving certain players a chance, a fair chance. Did those players take their chance ? -maybe not. Could he have included other players more in his experiment ?- sure. Did he give some players too much of a chance ?- Maybe in the interest of doing well in the Gold Cup, sure he gave them too much of a chance. But who knows, his vision may be more long term. To Beenie, this Gold Cup may have served to be one test/experiment to decide who he'll go forward with the WCQ.....you'll have to ask him to know for sure.

I agree with your point that experimentation was not the reason we were unsuccessful, at least not the only reason...... but I disagree that this Gold Cup was not experimental from the coaches point of view. No need to humor me boss, my point is simple........

arrow · « **Reply #11 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:49:28 PM »

well by your logic then playing Stern in 3 straight games was an experiment (even though he has played in almost every T&T match for the past several years) . And one that failed miserably.
So that "experiment" is over and I guess all we can do now is wait and see if Beenie chooses to act on the results or will continue to pick Stern based on blind faith and reputation.

kicker · « **Reply #12 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:56:46 PM »

Funny enough, to a certain extent, playing Stern may have been some kind of test......I think he was trying to give stern as much of a chance as he possible, given his past reputation but yeah it was frustrating to watch but......I dunno what can be said about Stern that hasn't already been said.....I hope for his sake and ours that he finds his form back (if he has it left in him)..........we'll just have to wait and see.

Lower St. John · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2005, 03:42:51 PM »

Too much attempt at trying to get into the Coaches mind or understanding his thinking.Â At the end of the day, if this was an experiment it was a major failure.Â

I am in full agreement with Arrow, how can one really argue that it was an experiment when almost the same squad that played against Mexico was on the field for most of the three games (not one but three games).Â Injuries are part of the game, so changes made as a result of injuries is par of the game.

Add to that, the men that we are uncertain of how they can contribute going forward only getting a corbeaux sweat or playing out of position.Â Dat appears to be an experiment doomed to failure or one that would give an inconclusive result, by that I mean the coach confirms to himself that a player cannot play in a position which he does not regularly play in for his club.Â Duh!!Â Â Meh former Skipper Rougier is the only exception to the rule and success story in this regard that comes to mind.Â

We lost a golden opportunity to fine tune our team in preparation for August 17 and the remainder of the World Cup Qualifiers against decent competition.Â Don't tell me about future friendlies because we will not have 65% of our team available for the game as a result of Club (livelihood) commitments.Â There comes a time when the coach must close the audtion doors with very little exception for the truly good, borderline great player (we aint have no one fitting dat bill out there).Â Time is/was of the essence.Â To believe we have more questions coming out of the Gold Cup than we did going in, is a crying shame.

At this time, I would like Beenie Man to simply explain his thought process for the Gold Cup, since the decisions on the field were not consistent with his statements of looking for success at the Gold Cup.Â Better yet he needs to define success.

supporter · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:27:17 PM »

it was part of the reason

oconnorg · « **Reply #15 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:43:53 PM »

WE cannot expect the coach(a new coach) to CRUNCH a 4 year program into 2-3 months.. NOT COOL..

He has said already, they are not the MOST talented bunch, but talented never the less. He will have to work with what he has.. But Does he know exactly what he has ?.

HE must experiment .. The bigger picture is WCQ... Lets not forget .. It was the same thing BSC said(forgive me in advance fellahs).. But it was the same thing that BSC nearly got nailed to the cross for, when he carried a TOTALLY inexperienced team to the Gold Cup Qualifiers.!! He Needed to field players he had not seen before, and that was an opportunity to do it ..

Beenie Fielded players in different positions to see how well they can fit the position given his TOTAL FOOTBALL school of thought (Anyone can play in any position.!)

ALSO..

I think in some way, Beenie man is trying to throw off the american scouts.. WE played a TOTALLY different Strategy frmo the panama and Mexico games.. Allyuh dont forget that..

I think he has a plan..

VIVA Warriors.!!

Touches · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2005, 06:20:28 PM »

Arrow good post breds

But I feel we ent taking into consideration one factor......suppose the men who on the field is PRACTICE CHAMP

I see it before, men who could do all drill, raise ball, follow instruction and look like boss and when they hit field is....

Then they have the opposite phenomenon, men who struggling in practice, get the corbeaux sweat and pull of the piece of magic and men wondering where were they all along.

I really hoping our captain fall into the practice champ category and that is why is he and any other 10 on the field.

Benjie · « **Reply #17 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:27:56 AM »

The first thing you have to realise is that he has a clear idea of who is on his team and in addition to this he needs to identify backups. The second he has stated before that Stern needs games to regain his scoring touch and that he is when in form the best scorer we have. Third our performance in the first game then the second did not allow him to make multiple changes as he may have wished. You cannot operate in a vacuum.

duscam · « **Reply #18 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:32:31 AM »

yuh right about that!

samo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:38:55 AM »

Th eonly good ting is we know for sure Stern not playing against the US. At least others will be given a chance.

dwolfman · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2005, 10:37:02 AM »

It's really easy for us to say that all the coach had to do was this or all he had to do was that. Fact remains that none of us are in the hot seat, none of us have ever been in the hot seat and none of us will ever be in the hot seat. Bennie has coached Real Madrid and Holland with some success, none of us here can claim to have anywhere near as much experience.

That said, I'm not saying that the man is perfect or that he can't make mistakes. What I am saying is that he has a better than good idea of how to coach. It's normal for us to have our opinions on how we would run things, but let us keep in mind that if it was as easy as we make it seem here then one of us would be doing it.

I think the team has improved in the time Bennie has been coach. Even in this tournament, disappointing as it was, I think there are certain aspects of our game that are improving. However, as someone stated below, it takes time to make big things happen, especially when working with a fairly ordinary bunch in the first place.

The only failure, in my opinion, in this tournament from an individual stand point is Gray. Stern John has been struggling, but would you bring a struggling player off the bench? I think the coach has a method. Hopefully he can get the guys to play smarter and more consistently.

P.S. Meh padnas laughing at me because I still wearing meh soca warriors rubber band.

oconnorg · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2005, 11:21:42 AM »

" P.S. Meh padnas laughing at me because I still wearing meh soca warriors rubber band "

Nutttin Wrong Wid DAT..!!!! I have on mine TOO...

VIVA SOCA WARRIORS!!!

AB.Trini · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2006, 07:40:35 AM »

Have we stopped experimenting? Wim what is the next move?