Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?

[Filho]

one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet

[fishs]

 I've read thru most of this an shake my head with wonder.
Argentina may be a stand alone case but in the world of international sport now, race cannot compare with nations need to achieve on the international stage. Check countries that normally hold tight to their cultures and the way they jump to nationalise players.

Japan
Qatar
Russia
Germany
Turkey
and the list goes on, what I,m saying is that I think for most countries if you're good enough to play for the national team , you will be picked even if yuh green and talk like weary.

Hardest would be a star and national hero in Ragististan if he could get ah visa

[Bakes]

I've read thru most of this an shake my head with wonder.
Argentina may be a stand alone case but in the world of international sport now, race cannot compare with nations need to achieve on the international stage. Check countries that normally hold tight to their cultures and the way they jump to nationalise players.

Japan
Qatar
Russia
Germany
Turkey
and the list goes on, what I,m saying is that I think for most countries if you're good enough to play for the national team , you will be picked even if yuh green and talk like weary.

Hardest would be a star and national hero in Ragististan if he could get ah visa

If you say that for most they would be willing to overlook race... that concedes in the very least that for some they won't be so color-blind, no?  If among that 'some' is Argentina (as you seem to concede)...why then are you left shaking your head?

I think we need only point to the experienced of black footballers in England... and Spain for that matter, as reminders as to the challenges faced by black footballers when it comes to breaking thru the color barrier. 

I won't even bother bring up the internal angst caused in France by the make up of the 1998 World Cup team... to show that race, and it's place in dictating who is seen as 'representative' of a country's ideal/identity, remains very much a reality today.

[just cool]

Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look @ the stats.

how many black countries never experienced colonialism ?  Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.

 how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.

if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade.  that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.

it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.

[fishs]

Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look 2 the stats.

how many black countries never experienced colonialism ?  Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.

 how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.

if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade.  that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.

it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.

JC and Bakes , I well know racism is alive and well and in some cases getting stronger , for instance I will never go to Russia again if I coud avoid it.
The point I'm making is that in FOOTBALL most countrys desire for success is colorless

[superoli]

"Most caribbean countries rarely have white players in their teams and I suspect it's mostly because most Caribbean whites are more interested in sports like tennis, golf, equestrian than football."

saddis you win with that one

[Blue]

"Most caribbean countries rarely have white players in their teams and I suspect it's mostly because most Caribbean whites are more interested in sports like tennis, golf, equestrian than football."

saddis you win with that one

Bad wknd 4 u oli...britain get relegated in d davis cup AND europe get blowout in d ryder cup...hard luck dey

[superoli]

yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping 

[Filho]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when  a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day 

check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.

[WestCoast]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when  a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day 

check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.

dat would be de redman, white and black team, ent
 

[Observer]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when  a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day 

check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.

 

Man talking about Nigeria & T&T doing well. Yes we have $$$$ but are we doing well?  How is that benefitting the peoples. Look at the infrastructure, education, medical, social assistance for elderly, safety of citizens. Look at the level of corruption, the standard of living of ministers etc.

[asylumseeker]

Nah fellas! In this current World Cup qualifying series Chile running a black player ...  Jean Beausejour ... had a good showing versus Bolivia ... versus Brazil he came on as a sub and altered the riddim of the game, but well Brazil was ticking and the score was already 2 zip when he came on ... game finished 3 love. Dahis about a week and a half ago. He duss fly a quasi-dread.

Beausejour has a Haitian father.

He is also an exception, as Chile's black population is not even 1%.

Re your comment in bold ... did you miss the photographic evidence? Only Brazil and Peru? Look, the larger point is that blacks are/were present all across the continent. Despite the various historicities, Argentina's experience as it exists today is in a separate box. 

You need to go back and re-read my post.

That comment is not mine. I was quoting the question posed by nigelfabien in the very first post of this thread.

Yes Zeppo. Absolutely, I stand corrected. I really had puzzled on how you could have missed the photos.  Makes perfect sense now.

Yeah, I "taunted" Toussaint recently about Beausejour, although he's in the 'right' place. Chilean citizen by birth and he's on the field. Fairly consistent with Chile's contemporary approach to the game. Up next, perhaps Daud Gazale.

 

[asylumseeker]

yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping 

Good shit. 

[asylumseeker]

Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look 2 the stats.

how many black countries never experienced colonialism ?  Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.

 how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.

if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade.   that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.

it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.

JC and Bakes , I well know racism is alive and well and in some cases getting stronger , for instance I will never go to Russia again if I coud avoid it.
The point I'm making is that in FOOTBALL most countrys desire for success is colorless[/b]

Fair observation. Nevertheless, the statement made, and the information imparted to the world, when a nation fields a team contrary to perception, is an immense one.

Wicked documentary that JC. Saw it on debut back in the day with a Q & A session following. Very gripping. Jamaica Kincaid is the narrator. The film is by Stephanie Black. Mandatory viewing bredrin.

[Saltanfresh]

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

[dinho]

yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping 

who did the jumping, you or the horse?

[Dutty]

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

Doh study it breds...de bickering start before you and will continue long after you and me gone
anytime it have racial ting in any post no matter how re-hashed or obvious the topic ..it go always have online WAR! 

[Pointman]

You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

Mexico did have a black player on their team a few years ago, Mervin Brown. The population of Black Mexicans is very small though.

[Filho]

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

is race yuh talking bout. must get a lil testy. Plus..yuh can't always truly get your points across on a message board. so real pressure. but i find fellas was behavin' deyself this rounds. truss meh..this was civillized 

[Blue]

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.

[100% Barataria]

one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet

Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses

[Filho]

one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet

Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses

but yuh forget de paper 
respeck boss

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.

been there. going back in Nov.

[just cool]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when  a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day 

check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.

 

Man talking about Nigeria & T&T doing well. Yes we have $$$$ but are we doing well?  How is that benefitting the peoples. Look at the infrastructure, education, medical, social assistance for elderly, safety of citizens. Look at the level of corruption, the standard of living of ministers etc.

Breds yuh talking out of context. my point was nigeria and trinidad have ah stable economy, and they are receiving revenue from their natural resources, what they do with it is contrary to the topic.

misappropriation of funds and inadequate infrastructure has nothing to do with out side interference, that's for another discussion, if our administrators (politicians) are guilty of funds mismanagement then that's on us.

 point is , there are countries who have  resources up the ying yang but can't exploit them BC of stipulations that was put on them by the IMF (world bank) there's no way on earth except by some miracle they could repay the IMF especially with the ridiculous amount of interest incured on the loan( life long debt) and they don't have the technology or the funds to unearth and refine their resources.

so there's no way to compete on the world market, end result !! inflation, extreme poverty, crime, high incident of diseases (std) corruption of all sorts! and with no viable income ? a debt that is unpayable (life long debt!). example: haiti , guyana, jamaica, mexico.

[100% Barataria]

one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet

Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses

but yuh forget de paper 
respeck boss

Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses.

boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.

been there. going back in Nov.

   hard luck dey, here it is...http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15419385 (abstract only)

[Blue]

been there. going back in Nov.

Yuh shudda say dat long time, differentiate yuhself from d wikipedia crowd 

edit: oh yeah, you did 

[Bakes]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

I'm sorry, but this is rank nonsense. 

I am sure that I won't know what it's like living in a Communist country until I actually move to Cuba, Russia or China.  That said, I don't have to wait until that magical moment in order for me to appreciate what life must be like... not when news abound on the conditions there.  If you read one or two sources then you take the information with a grain of salt.  If you keep encountering the same information from a disparate number of sources then that militates in favor of credibility.

I don't have to "know many Argentines" for that perspective to be validated because at the end of the day the "many" Argentines I know may themselves be ignorant of the very conditions we are here debating.  I'm sure if you ask many whites here in America they'll tell you that racial discrimination ended sometime back in the 60's with the advent of Civil Rights.  In fact, take a look at this graphic that Tallman posted in the General Discussion forum:



I post this to show that many who belong to the majority have skewed perspectives as to what is going on with minority populations.  I don't know what your source is for saying that most are only "ignorant and hypothesizing" but absent the data to support such a conclusion...I imagine that you'd similarly have to count yourself among their number.

[kicker]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when  a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day 

check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.

Not sure about that first part.  I agree that people could be quick to make inaccurate generalizations based on a perception or on a pervading perspective that is communicated through the mainstream.  In the case of Argentina, the mainstream view is that the country has a race problem that at one point (or maybe still) manifested itself at the institutional level- add to that, the fact that blacks/non whites are a very small minority, many Argentines have an ignorant view of blacks (ignorant meaning not knowing, as opposed to the colloquial meaning- stubborn)...My guess is that this ignorance often comes in the form of racial prejudice.  The part that I underlined was told to me by an Argentine himself...and yuh know him 

I've met quite a few Argentines along the way but I can't claim to know many (not sure what constitutes many)... All whom I've met appear to be average open minded, non-racist, educated people...but I don't know how representative that is of the general public.  I'm also not sure how good an impression I'd get of Argentina by visiting Buenos Aires for 10 days with a group of non Argie friends...Point is you're correct in implying that someone who has lived there would probably have a more authoritative view on the situation...but that could also be incorrect... For instance, there are probably non-Trinis who never set foot on the island for more than 2 weeks know more about certain Trinidad issues than I do....through indepth study for e.g. Point is, everyone has their point of reference and unless this is your field of study or expertise, all the perspectives thrown out here are muddied by a certain level of ignorance....and as we well know, on this hub of ole talk, opinion, regardless of how ignorant it is... is as good as fact 

[asylumseeker]

I find the various directions this thread has taken to be sufficient information in itself. And, I find the discourse has been a fairly well-informed discussion. When we have become mired in some matters, generally it has been upon the introduction of off topic matters.

As Dutty suggests, no matter how many times an Argentine tangent is touched, some fire is to be expected and yet, the truth is we are - in my view - among a small community capable of having a 'free and frank' and fairly responsible discussion about race.

At least one amongst us seems to be labouring under the impression that Trinbagonians travel exclusively under a compass driven by the draw of familiar metropoles. That's an unfortunate assumption and proposition. There is an experiential body of knowledge on the forum in existence, regardless of whether it is understated or not advertised. I have full confidence that such awareness influences the perspectives advanced. Otherwise, on evidence presented, we should lock the thread and let Filho expound on the topic solely ... that is, perhaps, until other posters step forward to be vetted through fuller disclosure directed towards London.

[Filho]

time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.

I'm sorry, but this is rank nonsense. 

I am sure that I won't know what it's like living in a Communist country until I actually move to Cuba, Russia or China.  That said, I don't have to wait until that magical moment in order for me to appreciate what life must be like... not when news abound on the conditions there.  If you read one or two sources then you take the information with a grain of salt.  If you keep encountering the same information from a disparate number of sources then that militates in favor of credibility.

I don't have to "know many Argentines" for that perspective to be validated because at the end of the day the "many" Argentines I know may themselves be ignorant of the very conditions we are here debating.  I'm sure if you ask many whites here in America they'll tell you that racial discrimination ended sometime back in the 60's with the advent of Civil Rights.  In fact, take a look at this graphic that Tallman posted in the General Discussion forum:

I post this to show that many who belong to the majority have skewed perspectives as to what is going on with minority populations.  I don't know what your source is for saying that most are only "ignorant and hypothesizing" but absent the data to support such a conclusion...I imagine that you'd similarly have to count yourself among their number.

Bakes..Kicker. Points well taken. The post is not well written, but that can happen when you are in a rush to make a point..as I am now. Anyway..you're taking it a bit literally. I think the topic is full of good information and excellent discussion. What is lacking from the discussion are real-life experiences. Otherwise, I think after while, nothing of real value is added. I am not saying to stop talkng the talk in its entirety, but I meant we should stop at this point as i thought we were starting to beat a dead horse. Plus, as you can see I had an ulterior motive. I was interested to see what people's response would be to the questions I asked and see if there were actually parrallels that can be drawn between T&T and Argentina. My hypothesis...maybe we are not all so different as we'd like to think. Maybe we are. I was curious. And as for most people being ignorant and passing off opinion as fact...i stand by that as it pertains to the subdiscussion as to the actual effect of racism on black footballers' opportunities in Argentina today.

Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself. On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.

Anyway..I've read my post and the intro is a bit of a wild voop. hard luck. not expecting people to agree anymore with my clarification (i'd actually be disappointed if they did)..but it's a lot closer to what i meant

[Observer]

Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about  footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."

Take a read

http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html