Everald Cummings, a "Trin for real".
Everald Cummings, known by every Trinidad and Tobago football fan as "Gally" took the time-off to do an exclusive interview and his first for the Soca Warriors Online (SWO).
And in case you are an outsider looking in, allow me to enlighten you about the former New York Cosmos superstar who happens to be one of, if not the most successful, local senior head coaches in Trinidad and Tobago's history.
That's right. The man accomplished what no other local coach has at senior level when he led the Strike Squad within a point from qualifying for the 1990 FIFA Men's World Cup in Italy.
He had a great track record as a coach, especially during the 1989 WC qualifiers in route to Italy. It started with a 1-1 tie against power house United States in California, another 1-1 tie against Costa Rica in Port of Spain, then slipped to a 1-0 loss to Costa Rica in San José.
He rebounded to beat El Salvador (2-0) in Port of Spain, headed to Tegucigalpa, Honduras and escaped with a point as both teams were deadlocked, then left for Guatemala City soon after and stole all 3 points from the host with a 1-0 win. He then returned to T&T to show the win was no fluke as the Strike Squad won again this time the scoreline were 2-1 at the Queens Park Oval.
But then came the heartache - a game in Trinidad and Tobago's footballing history that no one who experienced the final game against the United States on November 19th 1989 (Red-day) would ever forget. Indeed, the entire country, and not just the 35,000 that were present at the National Stadium still remembers...
Gally's men needed a solitary point if they were to qualify for the 1990 World Cup. However it did not happen; the Americans came to Port of Spain and broke the hearts of many when they pipped T&T 1-0 from a Paul Caligiuri 31st minute goal to send them to the FIFA World Cup finals in Italy, their first since 1950.
The game brought tears not only to the players and staff but to everyone in Trinidad and Tobago or who supported Trinidad and Tobago regardless of nationality. Today the game is remembered by a phrase ''The shot heard 'round the world."
Mind you, this was a big accomplishment for any local coach, CONCACAF at the time were allowed only 2 teams to qualify for the FIFA tournament in which 24 teams (now 32) participated. Costa Rica and United States would go on to represent the CONCACAF region.
But before his coaching career Gally had tremendous success on the field; he became the first player from his country to win a contract to play in Mexico when he was snapped up by Veracruz, his exploits for the New York Cosmos making it all possible.
At international level he was regarded as one of the best midfielders to have played for his country and was part of the infamous 1973 World Cup bound team that was cheated out of a spot in West Germany.
T&T got the better of host Haiti 5-2 but had 4 goals disallowed by the El Salvadorian referee, who, incidentally, was banned for life after the fact. However the results stood and T&T was sent home in tears; the players could only look on in disbelief as Haiti clinched the final spot to the 1974 FIFA World Cup finals in West Germany. Today, many who have seen the player in action, call him a legend. He was described as quick, fast and had rockets on both feet. Ask Mexico - need I say more....
Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together and give a round of applause to the man who once brought passion and love to the game in T&T. Below are 24 questions Mr. Everald "Gally" Cumming took the time to answer for the SWO.
1. How was the experience playing in Mexico while you were there with Veracruz and New York Cosmos during your time in the US. As I understand there was a lot of racism in the U.S. in your time. Give us a brief on your experiences, good and bad.
EC: - In 1967, while representing Trinidad and Tobago in a CONCACAF tournament in Jamaica, I received a professional contract to play for the Atlanta Chiefs in the North American Soccer League.
At the tender age of eighteen  I was one the first Trinbagonians to received a Professional contract to play football for the Atlanta Chiefs Soccer Club in Georgia, USA. This was the inauguration year of the North American Soccer League.
In Atlanta, at that tender age I received a reality check because nothing could have prepared me more for life than this first hand experience of the Indignity of Segregation, Racism, Bigotry and all the other ills that degraded black people in the South, in the “sixties”.
Apart from all those social indignities I had to live with in Georgia, I also had to face the internal racial problems in my own team, on a daily basis, in the showers, dressing rooms, on the field at practice and games.
The squad predominantly consisted of white players from England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, South Africa, Wales, Canada and Sweden. You see England had won the World Cup in 1966, and the Americans emulated the English Model to form their own soccer League.
There were also lots of positives like having met and listened to people like Dr. Martin Luther King Jnr. and a host of other black activists including our own Stokely Carmichael [Kwame Ture] which really shaped and molded my identity as a Black man and made me very conscious of who I am.
The Atlanta Braves Baseball Team and us shared dressing rooms next to each other so I met players like Hank Aaron, Joe Torre, Phillipe Alou, Rico Carty and a host of others. I will always remember the year, 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King jr. was assassinated in April, and Atlanta Chiefs Soccer Team won the North American Soccer League in October of that same year. It was a miracle that we lived in separate worlds but still achieved one common goal, a championship.
I was invited to attend Dr. Martin Luther King’s jnr. funeral on behalf of the Atlanta Braves Organisation. Entertainment and Sports personalities traveled on the same buses, and I met lots of black stars like the Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, Bill Cosby, Diahan Carrol and many others on the bus.
These early experiences helped me to formulate my own identity as a person and a player in the midst of that indignity, especially when I saw my style of football being supreme to the other nationalities on my team.
This bolstered my confidence and assisted me tremendously in understanding the emancipation of spirit and soul.
On many occasions during training I would hear my teammates say, “ Everald combines speed and technique so well, he dribbles like a Brazilian, makes the long passes like the English, he finishes clinically like a German, but I never got credit for being Trinbagonian. My playing like a Trinbagonian contributed to me being voted the most valuable player in the World Cup qualification in Haiti, 1973.
My experiences in New York Cosmos were good but some of the same social problems manifested itself in different ways. Our home field was Hofstra University where we also trained on an old astro/turf field. It was very tough on players muscles tendons and joints.
The team was really a cosmopolitan team with players from Yugoslavia, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Brazil, England, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Ghana, Bermuda and Trinidad and Tobago.
I played upfront with Randy Horton from Bermuda and we combined nicely with me being the organizer and he the finisher.
Gordon Bradley was the coach and Clive Toye, the manager, both of them I knew back in the “sixties” when I played for Atlanta Chiefs. Clive Toye was manager of the Baltimore Bays and Bradley played for the New York Generals with the likes of Trinbagonians, Warren Archibald, Jan Steadman and Leroy DeLeon.
I played two seasons there and moved on to Veracruz, Mexico being solicited by teams in Mexico after my outstanding performance in Haiti. We won the NASL championships in 1972, giving me my second NASL Championship ring and the New York Cosmos their first NASL championship.
I honestly believe, though, that my two and a half years in Veracruz was one of the highlights in my entire professional career. In Mexico, our playing styles were similar and I fitted in very nicely with their ball touch and rhythm.
After my first season and being an established player with the Club, I was given a free role on the team to be as creative as I possible could and this was understood by all the other players on the team.
As I reflect, I remember after arriving in Veracruz, I was introduced to the fans during the half time period of one of our games. They stood up and gave me what I thought was a special welcome because I heard the roar and screams. I really thought that the fans were giving me a standing ovation but when I really found out what they were saying, in Spanish, they were really cussing me out for scoring two great goals against them putting them out of World Cup finals in West Germany, 1974.
However I did get a real Standing ovation one night playing against the champion team of Japan in an exhibition game with thirty thousand fans watching. The coach decided to rest some of the main players since we had a league game in two days but the fans saw it differently while we were losing one to zero.
They started calling for me and it appeared to be my night, I did everything correct. The playing surface was a bit slippery and I body beat and change directions leaving those Japanese players standing and some on the ground that night. I set up the equalizer then scored the winner with five minutes left in the game. I must say that none of the fans left the stadium after that game until I came back out to center field to accept a standing ovation.
2. Who were some of the best players you've played with and against. And how did you get the name Gally.
EC: - I will have to say: Pele, Leroy DeLeon, Warren Archibald and Steve David. The name “Gally” came from Galliento. A gentleman by name of Leo Gilbert better known as “Uncle Leo” to the entire community at the corner of Melville Lane and Dundonald Street in Port of Spain who took a special interest gave me that name at age one.
He said that I was black and tough like a black boxer who came to Trinidad in the old days name was Galliento.
This name was basically a community name until the news papers got hold of it, I think when I was at Fatima College. Nobody calls me Everald, anymore.
3. While at Fatima College, who were your teams biggest rivals and who were some of the standouts in your time at SSFL level.
EC: - Our biggest rivals at Fatima College was St. Benedicts College.
Some of the standouts in the then Colleges League were: Allan Cupid, Warren Archibald, Leroy DeLeon, Kenny Joseph, Dick Furlonge, Bede Wells, boy, that whole team was the best. QRC: Ellis and Vernon Sadaphal, Jimmy Springer, Garnet Harris, Brian Knight, Fatima: Roger Duprey, Earl Fough, Terry Watson, Wayne Jackson, Frankie Mahabir, Glen Sealey. St. Mary’s College: Jerry Gellineau, Wayne Smart and a host of others.
4. Football has changed, from your time to now. How important is the SSFL in today's football. In other words, can it contribute to our national team in a positive way and can it help develop players.
EC: - First we need to have the SSFL players play a longer season, but since that will be clashing with the academics then we need to have SSFL zonal football. North Zone, South Zone, Central Zone and East Zone etc.
Select the best coaches in the country to manage these zones which will compete against each other before and after the SSFL season. We can also create a sort of ODP like in the USA where about thirty players are regularly trained and screened for national selection. Start a Tertiary Football League to bridge the gap between SSFL and senior football.
This tertiary league will accommodate players leaving and not being able to meet the required standard of senior football. For example; players can transfer to this league with their regular teammates as an old boys club. For example; St. Benedicts old Boys, Fatima old boys, St. Anthony’s old boys, Naparima, Presentation, QRC, Signal Hill, St. Mary’s, Murcurapo, St. Augustine, Arima, El dorado, Carapichaima and others. This will also bring back the crowds who have already been a fan base connected to their schools.
5. Though, I have never seen you play, I have heard many great things about you, one being, you had a "bullet", the others were, you were fast and diminutive. Who would you say is responsible for you being one of T&T finest, also, when and against whom did you make your T&T debut and can you tell us a little about footballers attitude in your time compare to them now.
EC: - My older brothers Philbert and Ellis were responsible for my development
Philbert the eldest was my hero as a child because he was respected on and off the playing field. He was a very good footballer who played for Malvern Sports Club in the days of Carlton Franco, Kelvin Berassa, Clive Niles, Ken Hodge, Eddie Hart, Ken Henry and others.
He had a very powerful and accurate shooting ability which he taught me. My other brother Ellis, had flat feet and because of this his shot on goal had a natural swerve which I saw playing with him every day. So I had some good teachers who looked after my development plus I also worked very hard twice or sometimes three times a day on my craft.
At senior football I had the guidance of a very good person in Tony Gouveia at Paragon Sports Club. I also played in most of the minor leagues in Port of Spain. Mervina League, Pin Smith League, Francis Rivas league, Brown League,Woodbrook Youth Center League, Carenage League, Diego Martin League, Paul Castillo League in San Juan, and Eddie Hart League.
I made my debut against Jamaica in Jamaica at age 16. The difference in my time as a player and now is attitude. As Jesse Jackson once said, and I quote” Its not the aptitude that builds the altitude but the attitude.”
6. Now, please don’t laugh, but Trinis in known for old talk. Your guys were obviously cheated during the a World Cup qualifier against host Haiti where 4 of T&T goals were disallowed, Haiti went on to win the game 2-1 and qualify for the WC in West Germany. Some of my Haitian friends say the goals where off side, some say Winston Phillips threw the ball into the net with his long throws and I even heard that the government of Haiti gave each members of the T&T team a gold watch and $500 dollars to not protest to FIFA despite the El Salvadorian referee being banned for life. Can you give us your side of the story on the great Haitian episode.
EC: - I also had a good laugh because some people never have the facts but talk anyway. Yes, we all were given watches and money from the Haitian Government and also gifts from the business communities downtown Haiti and other citizens.
We could have taken anything we wanted from the stores because the Haitian people were overjoyed with our sterling performance and the fact that they were going to the World Cup finals in West Germany.
It was my view that they were being extra kind to us because they knew in their hearts that we were the ones that should have gone to the World Cup Finals.in west Germany, 1974. Would you believe, that we didn’t receive one cent from our own people when we returned home.
Winston Phillip’s long throws were very instrumental for tactical reasons because the Haitian goalkeeper had problems defending it. If you have an tactical advantage why shouldn’t you use it?
It was a set piece that was creating all sorts of problems for the Haitians and worked in our favor. Our goals against Haiti weren’t offside. Our next game in Haiti was Mexico and Winston Phillips did not play because of injury and we won 4-0 without his long throws. In that same tournament Mexico beat Haiti 1-0.
7. Lets talk Strike Squad now. How did you get the job to become coach of the national team of Trinidad and Tobago and where did you coach before that.
EC: - I got the national coach job because the players asked for me. I was a Government coach employed by the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs at the time. The Director of the Sports at the ministry went to meet the national team on their arrival at the airport from the Pan American games where they lost very heavily and some players were fed up and was contemplating retirement.
The Director of Sports told me that the players wanted me to coach them and being a former national player and looking at the state of the game in T&T, I accepted the position as national coach, in 1987.
I was then seconded from the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs to the TTFA as technical assistance from Government, where I held the post as Specialist Coach for Football.
My salary was paid by the Ministry, I was never paid a salary by the TTFA. This arrangement with the TTFF was at a time when national football was in its grave. The only people who attended national team games were players girlfriends, wives and family members.
I worked myself to the bone with no kind of support systems in place, financial or otherwise and to the public TTFA was bad news, they were owing everyone, even the snow cone and corn soup men.
Well, its history now that born out of my hard work, knowledge of the game, team management, discipline and love for Trinidad and Tobago created the Strike Squad who is still together up to this day. And also created an avenue for players like Dwight Yorke, Russel Latapy, Leonson Lewis and others to play at the highest level in world football.
In 1982, I was employed with ASL Sports Club. Then Mr. Arthur Suite asked me to assist Falcons FC of Belmont, as coach. 1983, I coached Barataria Ball Players and was Assistant National Coach to Jan Zwatrius, of Holland, who was the then National Coach.
While on the National Technical Staff, I attended a few coaching courses with Heinz Moroski. In 1984, I joined the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs as specialist football coach. My job was to coach primary and secondary schools throughout Trinidad.
Before that in 1976, while on vacation from my club in Mexico, I coached my community team, Glory Guys to First place in the POSFL.
In 1977, I started the first professional team of Trinidad and Tobago, Pro Pioneers with Euadne Gordon a former national hockey player. In that same year, my family moved to Canada where I did my coaching licence, levels one and two with the Canadian Certificate Program, at Seneca College for the Canadian Football Association.
8. Now, I was only 15 during the 89' qualifiers, so please excuse me if you feel my question is off a bit as I can only remember flashes of news during that time. Why was David Nakhid overlook as I understand you guys didn't get along. ?
EC: - David Nakhid was recommended to me by a former team mate of mine from the New York Cosmos, Johnny Kerr who was a college coach in the US. I brought him in 1988 and tried to fit him in but he did not gel with the rest of the squad and left on his own. In spite of his disrespectful attitude he was still given a chance to be part of the 1989 squad but proved to be unworthy and was unable to fit into plans.
9. How did you become so successful during your time as T&T head coach, what did you do different, what was your physiology and why to this day no other local coach could be equally successful or better.
EC: - The First thing I did was to change the uniform. If you look dull you will play dull. I sat down with our sponsors, ROSSI, 3 Star Production, and came up with a special shirt for a special team. This shirt must display the national colors in an abstract setting. That jersey is now synonymous with the Strike Squad of 1989.
Next thing I did was change our way of play to a structure that encapsulated our culture rhythm and formation. I looked at a video of the team’s performance and they were lacking a scientific base of training, the bio-mechanics and the players individuality were non-existent. No one understood their role and responsibility.
We were playing an offside trap with no one pressuring the opposing player with the ball. Leonson Lewis and Adrian Fonrose were the two strikers in a 4-4-2 system. Dexter Francis and Hutson Charles hardly played and Latapy played a withdrawn center midfielder with no attacking responsibilities.
I implemented a new system of play with more compactness which brought the players closer to the ball and each other. I was able to reenergize football in Trinidad and Tobago and also made the TTFF more stable financially in 1989. People started coming back to the games because the football was exciting and entertaining.
The players respected me because I led by example and made them feel special and proud of being Trinbagonians. This new system encouraged compactness which immediately enhanced ball possession, encouraged more creativity, assigned roles and responsibility and reestablished our Trinbagonian way of play.
The old system of play used was a flat European 4- 4-2 system with the offside trap which never catered for the players creativity and individual capabilities. The reason other coaches are not successful is because they do not have a philosophy and believe that everything that comes from abroad is better. Self hate, I guess.
10. I still can't believe I am doing an interview with the coach I admired as a teenager, I remembered coming out in my red shirt to support your team on November 19th (the Red-Day) when you guys drove from South to North, you and your team passed in-front of my home heading to the national stadium to face USA. Speaking of which, they were rested and awaiting the journey of your Strike Squad. My question to you is; If you could go back in time to November 19th, 1989 and do it all over again, what would you had done differently and did you feel you field the best possible players.
EC: - I would have the team stay in nearby Barbados and fly into Trinidad the day before the game. The carnival mentality of Trinbagonians, the harassment by politicians and businessmen were very annoying throughout the campaign.
11. Lets focus on the game today. What do you feel has caused such a decline in our football at both local club and at international levels. Even the crowds are suffering. And how important is the Pro League. As I recall, during your time as head coach there was no professional league in T&T.
EC: - When the zonal structures which incorporated the communities, through the zones throughout the country, for example: POSFL, NAFL, CFL, AFL, SFL, SAFL, TFL etc. were replaced with a national football league which was not community based and brought control of football under the TTFA.
Before that the council members selected by the zones represented the clubs at the TTFA level, so there were always transparency and accountability. The TT Professional league can only survive if the restructuring of the zones is reestablished and there is a proper youth development structure in the communities.
12. Can you see T&T qualifying for another World Cup. And what in your opinion could be done for this to be a reality in the future.
EC: - Yes, T&T can qualify for another World Cup finals but our ultimate goal should always be having good national teams representation at all levels which means having the proper foundation whereby creating continuity.
13. Just over a year since you wrote to the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) alleging over 20 years of discrimination and victimization by the Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation (TTFF) and its special adviser Jack Warner. To-date you have not gotten a response from the EOC. Then recently you made a public appeal to Attorney General Anand Ramlogan, did you get any response yet and what is the current status of your case.
EC: - About two days ago I got an unfavorable response from the EOC stating much of the discrimination I was claiming happened before the ACT was established in 2000. I was given another 14 days to provide any further information. I am still contemplating how I should proceed.
14. According to reports, it was mentioned that Jack Warner was responsible for you being denied coaching jobs both in St Vincent and Grenada. If this is true, can you tell us a bit more.
EC: - In 1994 World Cup Preliminaries, Trinidad and Tobago took an early exit and St. Vincent and the Grenadines was still in contention for a final CONCACAF spot and asked that I be their Technical Director.
I had spent one month in St. Vincent coaching their coaches in the early “nineties” through a program by“ Reds” Pereirra who was Sports Director of the OECS. The national coach and I got along very well and he sought my services through the President of Concacaf which never materialized.
In the year 2001, when our Under 17s national team’s preparation was going nowhere under Chief Onibinde of Nigeria. I received a call from an official, from the Ministry of Sports, on behalf of the then Minister of Sports and Youth affairs, Mr. Manohar Ramsaran, to coach the Under 17s national team. I was based in New York at the time and had to rearrange my schedule to prepare for this assignment willing as always to serve my country.
I was told that Jack Warner had to give the final confirmation, as special adviser. However, Mr. Warner never made the confirmation saying that he had “a problem with me” My good friend and former national player, the late Russel Teshiera, who was then manager of the Under 17s national team called me in New York to congratulate and welcome me to the team thinking it was a foregone conclusion.
15. Do you feel Russell Latapy and Dwight Yorke are the two best players T&T have ever produced or in your opinion, there were better ones but never got the break ?
EC: - No, there are others, also. Different eras brought different opportunities and different challenges. They got the big breaks and had people like myself to guide them through rough times. Myself and others like me had no one.
16. How did you discovered top talents in your time as head coach. In other words, what sort of scouting system you used in both Trinidad and, Tobago.
EC: - When I got the national team we were already in competition, I had my first game in one week, so I had to organize games locally. I played against most communities and if a player there was better than what I had well he was replaced. I was scouting and participating in competition at the same time. It was like building a house and living in it.
17. You currently run the football programme at the University of Trinidad and Tobago and have been there a few years well ? What is the latest and how is your team doing in its league. And in your opinion, who do you feel is one or some of the best local coaches we have today.
EC: - The scholarship programme began three years ago at UTT. We began playing as a reserve team of Tobago United in the Pro league. Then we played in Central zone football league and won but rules were changed to take the title. The matter is still in the court. This year we play as the FC SouthEnd in the reserve league. So far we have been unsuccessful in being part of a league system to provide players for national teams but still secured spots for three players. One at senior national team and two in the Under 20. We hope to realize the original intention of keeping most of talented players who seek scholarships abroad at home.
18. What is your thoughts on the T&T team in Germany at the 2006 World Cup and which T&T players impress you the most.
EC: - The T&T team in Germany 2006 played more defensive football not in keeping with our natural style. We are a creative people but, I guess we played what the coach asked. After Germany not one of our players received any new contract to play anywhere because they never got a chance to showcase themselves. The players who impressed me the most were Dwight Yorke, Carlos Edwards, Shaka Hislop, Aurtis Whitley and Russel Latapy.
19. If you had to pick an "all-time" 20 man T&T team who would they be.
EC: - There were too many great players from three eras of football in which I played to name an all time best.
20. On our current T&T team, who do you like the best and why.
EC: - What current team? We are still in the process of developing one.
21. You were Technical Director at both Starworld Strikers and North East Stars, during your time there what sort of success you had and how was the experience working at the clubs and at that level. Furthermore, I know Starworld Strikers no longer exist but why did you cut ties with North East Stars.
EC: - My experiences at both Starworld Strikers and North East Stars were very challenging because there were always problems to be solved. At Starworld Strikers where I spent more time, we only needed one more season to be a top contender in the Pro League but the team fell into financial and other management problems and eventually had to withdraw from the league.
In my short stint of two and half months with North East Stars I took them to two finals: the First Citizens Cup and the FA Trophy Finals. They had some serious player management problems and I was brought in to reestablish discipline and reenergize the players attitude towards training and official games.
The team was built around Guyanese, Jamaicans and Vincentian players, so whenever these players left North East Stars for world cup commitments with their respective countries, they practically had no team.
I cut ties with North East Stars because of my coaching job at UTT.
22. During your time as T&T head coach you had an A-Team and a B-Team which I personally think was a master plan, however, did this really helped and how did you go about keeping both team active and ready.
EC: - While preparing for our first world Cup match against the USA in Torrance, California, I was told by the TTFA that we had to participate in the newly inaugurated, Shell Caribbean Cup tournament. My squad already had thirty players in training so I selected ten more and divided them into A and B teams and coached them all. I then realized that I had to focus on the important game at the time which was the world Cup Qualifier against the USA, in Torrence, California.
I needed some other coaches to handle the team while I was away, I then selected Kenwyn Cooper and Jan Stedman because I thought they were the best coaches for the job.
Kenwyn Cooper did a fantastic job with the B team which had some of the younger players. This A & B system was used to keep players sharp. If a player didn’t perform well with the A team , he was sent to the B team and B player would take his place. This kept players on their toes with the correct attitude at all times.
23. Why is Tobago football (most of the times) over looked. How, in your opinion do you feel we can bridge the gap.
EC: - I really don’t know why Tobago players are overlooked because it did not happen when I was at the helm. The first thing I did when I took over as coach was to make Bertille St. Clair the Under 17 youth team coach and selected Dwight Yorke, at seventeen  with Ricky Nelson, and Colvin Hutchinson.
24. Have you ever visited the Soca Warriors Online (SWO) if so, what are your thoughts.
EC: - Yes, I have and I am quite impressed with the content and the fan base. The readership is given a wide perspective on topics of interest.
Soca Warriors Online and the Warrior Nation would like to extend our gratitude to Everald Cummings for taking the time to do this interview and we wish him all the best in his future endeavors.
Copyrights of the Soca Warriors Online - Any press using the following article written by Inshan Mohammed are welcome to do so providing they reveal the source and writer. Furthermore, no portion of this article may be copied without proper credit as well.