FPATT Thread

[Bakes]

let me tell you mr Fpatt why supporters are so reluctant

the gap between the players and supporters is too big.

look how long we begging for a Q&A in a chatroom with a player

everytime flex interview ah man he say he does be on this site but doh post why???

i thing iz big boy syndrome.

sorry but thats my feelings until they say otherwise. 

and we feel if we donate (as TT does say) transparency is all we ask for

what this money for?

doh cuss meh ah just asking

Morvant, I'm not going to cuss you...your questions are fair.

The money is, as I mentioned before, to put towards several projects. However, If it is preferred, the money raised from this site could be directed at a chosen project. Probably the football in the community programme.

This will be aimed at the poorer regions of Trinidad & Tobago. We'd like to encourage youngsters to become more interested in ProLeague football. This is because we feel that attendances need to be increased at matches. This develops affinities to clubs and brings more money into the game. This can be used in attract more foreignstares, which in turn brings in more revenue to develop local talent.

This is one of the ways the English PFA helped turn around the image of English football and attendances went from a post war low to a post war high over a 15 year period. Of course, the downside to having the worlds top league is that its harder to develop home grown talent, however, I don't see T&T progressing quite that far.

Initially, we would arrange regular coaching sessions for children in conjunction with the local ProLeague team. We'd get players to attend, give stadium tours and discounted match tickets. We also wish tocompile a free dvd featuring the worlds best footballers, but every other clip would be of T&T players, such as Spanns gold cup goal, Kelvins spectacular save vs Bahrain, Tallsts qualyfying goal etc, with the aim of showing that T&T can be up there with the best. You can't go and watch Beckham, Pele or Maradonna, but you can see Spann play for T&T.

As for your other comments, we've had Sancho, Jack, Shaka, Marvin over the last few months. As for the others? Maybe you will see them in the coming months.

I think they're probably right not to post on here. After all, it is a supporters site. Interviews are sufficient in my opinion.

As for big boy syndrome, well maybe you are right in some cases. But as to my original comments, some care, some only care about themselves. You just need to decide which is which. Ask yourself which players are in a position to do more.

As for transparency, I try to keep you as up to date as possible. However, there are times when I cannot give details because of legal or strategic reasons . This is a public site and there are people who read this who do not have our best interests at heart, but whatever I can release will be put here.

If you are interested in ensuring FPATT is run correctly, you are welcome to assist us and there may be an option of assisting with the steering committee.   

See... this here to me is very noble, but I honestly feel that FPATT might be biting off more than it can chew given that it's in it's infancy.  It wasn't solicited, but I'll offer it anyways.  I think FPATT should focus whatever scant resources are available on marshalling the support of and unionizing the professional footballers.  The focus should be on growing in strenght and elevating the presence of the organization, as the ONE unified voice of TnT footballers everywhere, starting with National Team members.  Community outreach and social activism can come later on...there are already ad hoc pockets in place where the very thing you aspire to achieve is being done on the community level.  There is however, no unified players voice, and that to me is what is most critical in the fight against the tyranny presented by the TTFF.

Just my thoughts.

[Football supporter]

Bakes, a lot of what you have said is accurate.
FPATT is a players union, and its first aim is to provide advice and support to players.

However, once recognised by the authorities and supporters, FPATT will have a unique opportunity to influence football in T&T.

As in the MLS & EPL, the union and the authorities should eventually work in tandem. Unlike in the USA and England, this won't happen in T&T until the TTFF either grow up or a change of personnel takes place. In the meantime, FPATT will have no access to big money.

When its time to negotiate the contracts for World Cup 2010, there will be a major conflict between the existing TTFF and the players.

FPATT will need the support of the players, supporters, sponsors and government.

If we sit and do nothing but add a few benefits for the players, we won't enjoy the support we need. FPATT needs to become a force as soon as possible. We can only do this by reaching out to the communities and providing benefits to them.

We cannot afford at this time to pay for insurance etc for players. In England, all players pay £90 per year subs. Thats around $1100 TT.

That pays for nothing! Last year PFA got £16,000,000 in TV rights. They also get a percentage of every transfer fee. Their major sponsors pay £30,000 each just to carry the PFA logo.

So you can see that subs are just a token payment to assure committment.

While we are tied up in court and trying to influence matters at FIFA, we have the opportunity to direct our efforts elsewhere.

A community project run and backed by the players is more likel to be supported than a community led scheme.

You are right that WN is the main vehicle for supporters, and if WN can organise and run weekly soccer schools, then I'm sure FPAT would lend its support. However, I don't think you guys have the time to commit to it. We have ex players like Tansley Thompson who want to support FPATT and want to work with youth talent. We have Tallest saying he wants to work in places like Morvant as a coach. Marvin wants to work back in his community.

Players do want to make a difference.

Therefore, if we decide to ask for donations/fundraising, the money can be directed at a specific project and become an FPATT/WN project.

The question is, is there anyoe from WN in a position to commit time on a weekly basis to support this I know of some members who may be iterested, but wether they would work without pay is another issue.

[KND2]

i think initially the funding will have to come from the players.

Only people passionate about the cause will put money into it.

A players Union will have to be funded by the players, if all PFL and foreign based players pay UNION DUES of 1% of their salary money should not be an issue.

fans will hardly donate to help players form a union.

Present and past players is prabably the best avenue to get fund from at least in the initail stage

[Football supporter]

Foreign based players cannot be full members and most are members of their host nations unions. Past players would not benefit from membership, but there are past players who are volunteering to help.

That leaves around 200 home based players.

Even 1% from all of them would not amount to much.

[elan]

FPATT is guess you were right when is time for action, everyone has committments. I think I understand what you are trying to do. I believe it's a great angle to approach the battle with the TTFF from.

[Baygo Boy]

Gentlemen, all things considered - this should be a "no brainer". Yes FPATT is a players organization, and in an ideal situation should be funded by the players, but we are not dealing with players from nations who understand the long term value of a union, most of OUR players have never been part of anything organized (except for their teams).

If we as fans understand the value of this union, and if we call ourselves true fans, then I don't see why we can't move from the norm and support their initial fundraising efforts, instead of providing lip service.

Warrior Nation execs will tell you that I am not a member, but they will tell you that when they come up with a plan or event that warrants my $$$ I will support. The truth is that FPATT is clearly doing something major here, so I will support.

We have to remove ourselves from the mind-set that says it must benefit us as individuals. Our players have had to deal with too much bullshit over the years, and as fans this is an opportunity to participate in fixing things. Harrison to the best of my knowlege is not even Trinbagonian, but we are hearing that this foreigner is putting his $$$ where his mouth is, why can't we? Why do we always have to depend on others to help us, when are we going to start helping ourselves? We try to paint this picture of us being post modern, but it's clear that the colonial mentality is still around.

We spent the past year hailing FPATT efforts, but as soon as they ask for more than lip service is more questions than support. Everyone on this board know our culture, and know that our players would have a problem paying dues at this point. We all know that the majority of players would want FPATT to do something for them before they start joining and paying dues, it's just our nature/culture, but those of us in the know, should recognize this and assist.

FPATT is not asking for much, they are simply saying we need your help to get this thing off the ground, and there is no reason why we shouldn't help. Show me how $5.00/$10.00 to support our players directly can hurt anyone of us. No disrespect intended, but it is not the Warrior Nation that is fighting the TTFF on behalf of the players, it's is FPATT. It's is not the Warrior Nation that coming up with this move to help our 'ballers, it is FPATT. Truth be told, it's clear that FPATT has a far better chance of organizing our players and our football than the WN.

Bake & Shark, you ask how FPATT can help develop football in T&T, and the answer is simple - by providing our players with an understanding of their value to the local game, but allowing them to recognize that they have a lot more to offer than just their on field exploits. We have seen where players unions in England and the US have worked with organizations at the grassroots level in conjunction with clubs and the FA/USSF etc to develop football in inner city etc. - do your research.

If yuh say yuh for we players then start sending yuh $$$$. Stop the pissing questions, and recognize. Our players never had a voice, they are getting one now, let's support this, It's in It's infancy and need our assistance.

Please, no more dumb ass questions, start funding. Mr. Harrison set up your Paypal account, or just post an address where I can send my 2 cents, and let's get this thing started.



 

[Bakes]

Bakes, a lot of what you have said is accurate.
FPATT is a players union, and its first aim is to provide advice and support to players.

However, once recognised by the authorities and supporters, FPATT will have a unique opportunity to influence football in T&T.

As in the MLS & EPL, the union and the authorities should eventually work in tandem. Unlike in the USA and England, this won't happen in T&T until the TTFF either grow up or a change of personnel takes place. In the meantime, FPATT will have no access to big money.

When its time to negotiate the contracts for World Cup 2010, there will be a major conflict between the existing TTFF and the players.

FPATT will need the support of the players, supporters, sponsors and government.

If we sit and do nothing but add a few benefits for the players, we won't enjoy the support we need. FPATT needs to become a force as soon as possible. We can only do this by reaching out to the communities and providing benefits to them.

We cannot afford at this time to pay for insurance etc for players. In England, all players pay £90 per year subs. Thats around $1100 TT.

That pays for nothing! Last year PFA got £16,000,000 in TV rights. They also get a percentage of every transfer fee. Their major sponsors pay £30,000 each just to carry the PFA logo.

So you can see that subs are just a token payment to assure committment.

While we are tied up in court and trying to influence matters at FIFA, we have the opportunity to direct our efforts elsewhere.

A community project run and backed by the players is more likel to be supported than a community led scheme.

You are right that WN is the main vehicle for supporters, and if WN can organise and run weekly soccer schools, then I'm sure FPAT would lend its support. However, I don't think you guys have the time to commit to it. We have ex players like Tansley Thompson who want to support FPATT and want to work with youth talent. We have Tallest saying he wants to work in places like Morvant as a coach. Marvin wants to work back in his community.

Players do want to make a difference.

Therefore, if we decide to ask for donations/fundraising, the money can be directed at a specific project and become an FPATT/WN project.

The question is, is there anyoe from WN in a position to commit time on a weekly basis to support this I know of some members who may be iterested, but wether they would work without pay is another issue.

I see what you're saying...

I still say that reaching out to the community or 'communities' as you said will really serve you no useful purpose when 2010 rolls around, because 'communities' aren't likely to help you force the TTFF's hand, moreso than a unified stance by all players concerned.  With no players to play the games the TTFF will be forced back to the negotiating table, if not forced into capitulation.

I do however agree that community outreach on the parts of the players is a very good idea and worthy of support.  Glad to see some of the current and former players getting involved in this venture, or at least keeping it at the fore of their minds.  I would reiterate again that perhaps this should either be done thru or in tandem with WN since there's a convergence of ideas on this front, and in many instances WN has already begun this process.  But I'll leave that up to FPATT and WN to work out.

[Bakes]

Foreign based players cannot be full members and most are members of their host nations unions. Past players would not benefit from membership, but there are past players who are volunteering to help.

That leaves around 200 home based players.

Even 1% from all of them would not amount to much.

If FPATT would extend membership to not just "Football players[ ] of Trinidad and Tobago"...implying pros based in TnT...but also extend it to players who represent TnT on the national level then that would solve this issue.  Afer all it is this category of players which gave rise to FPATT in the first place, no?

How ironic would it be if a Jose Luis Seabra or some other non-Trini footballer plying their trade in the PFL could gain membership...and a Carlos Edwards only be offered 'partial membership'.

[Bakes]

Gentlemen, all things considered - this should be a "no brainer". Yes FPATT is a players organization, and in an ideal situation should be funded by the players, but we are not dealing with players from nations who understand the long term value of a union, most of OUR players have never been part of anything organized (except for their teams).

If we as fans understand the value of this union, and if we call ourselves true fans, then I don't see why we can't move from the norm and support their initial fundraising efforts, instead of providing lip service.

Warrior Nation execs will tell you that I am not a member, but they will tell you that when they come up with a plan or event that warrants my $$$ I will support. The truth is that FPATT is clearly doing something major here, so I will support.

We have to remove ourselves from the mind-set that says it must benefit us as individuals. Our players have had to deal with too much bullshit over the years, and as fans this is an opportunity to participate in fixing things. Harrison to the best of my knowlege is not even Trinbagonian, but we are hearing that this foreigner is putting his $$$ where his mouth is, why can't we? Why do we always have to depend on others to help us, when are we going to start helping ourselves? We try to paint this picture of us being post modern, but it's clear that the colonial mentality is still around.


Thanks for re-stating my point for me....substitute "we" with "professional footballers" and you'll get my point.  Ever heard "you can lead a horse to water...".  WITHOUT THE PLAYERS FPATT IS NOTHING.  Don't you get that?  FPATT will fail with apathetic players...it doesn't matter what the fans are doing.  Fans can organize all they want and support all they want...all we'll end up with is WN by a different name, as I've already said.  You don't value anything unless you've put effort into achieving/acquiring it.  It shouldn't be that the fans have to do the leg work to get the union off the ground while the players dawdle around in apathy.  That apathy will feed over into the union (should fans succeed in getting it off the ground) and before you know it apathy will prevent it from being a unified force.  That's the point.

We spent the past year hailing FPATT efforts, but as soon as they ask for more than lip service is more questions than support.

Support should never be blind nor unintelligent.  If you feel otherwise then that is your prerogative.

Everyone on this board know our culture, and know that our players would have a problem paying dues at this point.

Well guess what, unionization takes sacrifice...those who are serious should be willing to make a sacrifice.

We all know that the majority of players would want FPATT to do something for them before they start joining and paying dues, it's just our nature/culture, but those of us in the know, should recognize this and assist.

FPATT is not asking for much, they are simply saying we need your help to get this thing off the ground, and there is no reason why we shouldn't help. Show me how $5.00/$10.00 to support our players directly can hurt anyone of us. No disrespect intended, but it is not the Warrior Nation that is fighting the TTFF on behalf of the players, it's is FPATT. It's is not the Warrior Nation that coming up with this move to help our 'ballers, it is FPATT. Truth be told, it's clear that FPATT has a far better chance of organizing our players and our football than the WN.

Bake & Shark, you ask how FPATT can help develop football in T&T, and the answer is simple - by providing our players with an understanding of their value to the local game, but allowing them to recognize that they have a lot more to offer than just their on field exploits. We have seen where players unions in England and the US have worked with organizations at the grassroots level in conjunction with clubs and the FA/USSF etc to develop football in inner city etc. - do your research.


Physician heal thyself.  None of these unions you cite...I GUARANTEE you...tried to get social program/mes off the ground BEFORE the union itself was up and running.  None.

That's a quintessential case of trying to put the cart before the horse.  So wheel and come again dey docta.

If yuh say yuh for we players then start sending yuh $$$$. Stop the pissing questions, and recognize. Our players never had a voice, they are getting one now, let's support this, It's in It's infancy and need our assistance.

Please, no more dumb ass questions, start funding. Mr. Harrison set up your Paypal account, or just post an address where I can send my 2 cents, and let's get this thing started.



 

If you think the questions are dumb then hold yuh f**king corner and doh respond...you not in the know, so they were NOT posed to you.  Did Mr. Harrison deem them dumb?  Have some modicum of understanding before you open your mouth and reveal the breadth of the void between your ears.

[Baygo Boy]

Bakes, ah mentioned yuh name once and yuh cuss meh "Trini to de Bone"  . Bakes It's clear that you are not willing to accept the fact that there are times when it's necessary to modify your approach to a situation - If you would agree that OUR players would have a problem paying dues etc at this point than where is YOUR solution, especially seeing that you seem to agree that FPATT is necessary.

You keep saying that is the players responsibility, and as I said in an ideal situtaion you are correct, but you have to accept that this is not the rest of the world , this is Trinbago, so as history has shown us, we have to take another route/approach, as is clear Harrison and his folks understand. You are asking him to empower our players in a short space of time, while still trying to battle the powers that be. You and I both know that the could render FPATT useless.

Most of the players cannot at this point grasp the "real" value of FPATT, and reality suggests - until that happens you will not get the type of involvement from the players. It hasn't struck you yet that FPATT was created by overseas based players, and the locals haven't yet bought into it. Come on don't pretend you not seeing that.

I am not interested in what should be - I am concerned with what is, or for the want of a better word "reality". Face reality Bakes, stop pretending that you don't understand we culture. If you want change - sometimes you have to create it, even force it. You and i are in a unique situation - we can help foster change for our players even when our players don't get it. We understand the value of FPATT, and as much as you and I would agree that the players should see this, they don't.

So should we sit back and watch, or should we work towards getting the organization off the ground.  If Shaka and all our overseas based were in the PFL - I assure you they too would have been reluctant to join. I accept the "you can lead a horse to water .... adage, but from experience, if you just force it to drink, rest assured you won't have a problem after.

As I said previously - I agree that it is ultimately the players responsibility, but when I look toward the future of T&T ball, and what 'Ballers have gone through, I know that if we don't assist FPATT in getting of the ground, we (fans) will forever talking about how unprofessional and mundane or ballers and local football is. We have an opportunity to participate in bringing about change, so forget the bullshit and let's assist.

One other thing - If you don't want me to respond to your post - I suggest you call Mr. Harrison on his private line.

So now, with that understood - what is your proactive solution?

[Football supporter]

Bakes, the points you make and the questions you ask are the same ones that I used ask.

Once you work inside football, you certainly view things differently.

I've spent time with my heroes, trying to figure out how they can reach the end of their careers with no job propects. I've sat there listening to a player tell me how he's going to get a job as a courier driver, and earn less money than his mortgage payment.

I get told stories by players of how they invested and lost money on the advice of friends, agents, managers and independent financial advisers, yet they still don't approach the PFA.

Many players aren't even aware of the benefits they get from PFA. They don't read the letters we send or attend meetings we hold.

The only reason 75% are members is because when they turn pro, their manager or club captain tells them to join.

However, there are one or two players at each club who realise the benefits of membership. These guys keep it alive.

To my knowledge, not one single Trinidad based player has asked for a union. It is those players that have experienced the security and benefits of unionisation abroad who want to provide similar benefits for those players at home. As I have repeatedly said, those pioneering players will not benefit themselves.

As with many modernisations, people travel to other countries and experience things they have not been aware of and want to bring them back home. Thats how countries develop.

How can players in Trinidad know a players union is a good thing if they've never seen it in action? Therefore, how can they be expected to become die hard activists?

With such a small player base, FPATT has to provide the framework for players to sign up to. In other countries, unions were generally formed by players because they had certain issues to fight at home. This is different. If TTFF had paid the players bonuses and not blacklisted them, perhaps FPATT would still be just an idea. Instead, certain players decided they would not let that happen to future players. The difference is, they were all foreign based.

If the ProLeague suddenly stopped paying players, then you would see the players signing up, but they have had no catalyst like those in other countries.

So what I'm trying to explain is that in a perfect world, there would be no reason for supporters to fundraise. But in the real world, it is you and I that see the benefits, not so much for todays players, but for the future players.

I became involved because Brent and Kelvin asked me for advice about the process involved in starting a union. From that point I have gradually got more involved and more determined to help straighten out football in T&T. I live in England and I have no intention of moving to Trinidad (although its a great country and I hope to visit often in the future), so there is no long term career in FPATT for me.

I'm just sick of the corruption, the lack of respect and the naivity of home based players.

Everyone has their own view and I never expected 100% on this site. I just hope that those who do make a financial commitment are proud of what we achieve.  

[WestCoast]

can I just interject my penny's Worth?
everybody has some very good points and counterpoints for FPATT
but let me also say that we cant be too hard on the local players.
I am sure that these players realise that their future Football careers rests in the hands of ONE PERSON.
ONE PERSON...that in itself is mind boggling for me even.
If they are cognisant of the local scene they will know those who have been treated very unfairly in the past and they themselves do not in any way want to be treated that way.
This has been going on now for OVER 30 YEARS.
so as this is a very NEW thing to them we can only ask that the Players who have been successful in getting this off the ground to be VERY patient as I think it will take time for the present local players to climb on board the FPATT maxi taxi, so to speak
Just keep trying and sooner or later they will open their eyes.

[Baygo Boy]

West Coast - you  are correct. It will take time for the players to buy into FPATT, and Harrison and his folks clearly understand that, but in order for FPATT to become a force, we need to assist in their interim funding efforts.

I think that the debate should end, and the funding commence. I have been personally involved in local players issues in the past, and i know that if the player and I had FPATT back then, the end result we experienced could have been different. I totally support the concept and efforts of FPATT.

Two of the best things to happen with local football is FPATT, this site and WN, let's help FPATT efforts.

[WestCoast]

West Coast - you  are correct. It will take time for the players to buy into FPATT, and Harrison and his folks clearly understand that, but in order for FPATT to become a force, we need to assist in their interim funding efforts.
I think that the debate should end, and the funding commence. I have been personally involved in local players issues in the past, and i know that if the player and I had FPATT back then, the end result we experienced could have been different. I totally support the concept and efforts of FPATT.
Three of the best things to happen with local football is FPATT, this site and WN, let's help FPATT efforts.

very well said.....

something that cold be considered is that maybe FPATT could get the forren players to be involved in a workshop which will convey the whole concept of the association?
invite ALL local players to attend.
maybe held in a few venues.

[Football supporter]

can I just interject my penny's Worth?
everybody has some very good points and counterpoints for FPATT
but let me also say that we cant be too hard on the local players.
I am sure that these players realise that their future Football careers rests in the hands of ONE PERSON.
ONE PERSON...that in itself is mind boggling for me even.
If they are cognisant of the local scene they will know those who have been treated very unfairly in the past and they themselves do not in any way want to be treated that way.
This has been going on now for OVER 30 YEARS.
so as this is a very NEW thing to them we can only ask that the Players who have been successful in getting this off the ground to be VERY patient as I think it will take time for the present local players to climb on board the FPATT maxi taxi, so to speak
Just keep trying and sooner or later they will open their eyes.

Thats exactly my point. Plus, the local guys have got to be thinking that they don't want to end up joining the blacklist, so its better to keep your head down. Of course, the exact opposite is true. If they unite, they will be undefeatable, as was the PFA in 2001, when 99% of pro footballers in England & Wales voted to strike over the sharing of television rights. Needless to say, there was no strike required. It takes what we call bottle to stand up against more powerful forces, yet once you do, it empowers you as individuals and as an organisation. The 2010 world cup is coming, and at the moment there is half a team, and they have never negotiated with Warner before. What tricks will he pull next time?

 

[WestCoast]

The 2010 world cup is coming, and at the moment there is half a team, and they have never negotiated with Warner before. What tricks will he pull next time?

May GOD guide them


Even our own head coach and his fellow players back in 1974 stood up to the FA of the Netherlands.
"Nothing was ever easy with this bunch of players - they'd been arguing about bonuses, and threatening strike action, three days before the tournament kicked off! "
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~goldkeep/Holland74/Squad.htm
that was also the WORST year in TnT Football History.

[Football supporter]

It makes you realise how difficult a position Wim was placed in over the blacklist. I bet when he leaves Trinidad he has a lot to say about that issue.

Interesting to see Cruyff not wearing the same shirt as the others. Can you imagine Rooney or Gerrard wearing a different shirt to their team mates? Incredible. I also liked the goalie wearing number 8 and the reserve striker wearing number 1!

[Bakes]

I don't disagree with too much of what any of you, baygo, west coast or FPATT are saying...so let's just establish that off the bat.  However from my personal experience, you cannot expect to do things for people, without the main beneficiaries having some sort of investment in their own interests.  One of my biggest fears is that all this leg work is put into it and nothing comes of it because the players just aren't interested.  I just believe that the players should be on board with the idea of unionization before the union begins any sort of social programs, because at the end of the day:

1. Social programs are necessary, but already being addressed.

2. Players aren't interested in social programs so all the social programming we do fails to promote the stated of the Union.

Yes there must be much hand-holding, but you hold their hands and lead them where...to somewhere that they possibly won't be interested in going in the end?  Gauge the committed interest first...then hold hand and point the way.




Additionally FPATT...not sure if you answered my question about membership and Pro League players v. foreign based National Team members.

[Football supporter]

The problem with foreign based players being full members is that they would be able to vote on issues that only effect home based players. Also, once there is insurance and pensions etc in place, they will be of no use to the foreign based players, so they will be paying subs for no reason.

I am positive that some of them would pay their subs anyway, but those guys are already spending much more in getting the union up and running.

As associate members, they can pass on their advice, but have no voting rights.

The tricky area is international team contracts. David Beckham will have no voting rights on England contracts as he is not a member of the PFA. Likewise, Stern and Carlos will not be able to vote on T&T contracts. But as associate members, they can still make their feelings known.

This situation is the same in all 42 other unionised countries from Brazil to Egypt. You can only join if you play in that country.

As to your other comment Bakes, don't take this wrong, but shall we just all forget about the union and sit back and watched the next crop of players get screwed, while we have premiership players not selected for their country? What happens when Spann and Williams realise that they're being screwed and refuse to play?

This is the part I don't understand about your points. As valid as they are, the underlying fact is that as over the last 30 years, if we do nothing, you'll get the same result. The players at home can't see the shit heading towards the fan. We can, and thats why WE have to take responsibility. Its our game, and its your nation.

A lot of the players we're talking about are too young to think of much more than which boots to buy next. They're not interested in the politics of football, but they will be once its too late.

[trinbago]

All I have to say is "Build it... and They will Come"

We all have to have faith in the cause and the belief in what we are doing is for the betterment of generations to come.  "That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it you can't understand it. And if you do, no explanation is necessary."

[Bakes]

This is the part I don't understand about your points. As valid as they are, the underlying fact is that as over the last 30 years, if we do nothing, you'll get the same result. The players at home can't see the shit heading towards the fan. We can, and thats why WE have to take responsibility. Its our game, and its your nation.

A lot of the players we're talking about are too young to think of much more than which boots to buy next. They're not interested in the politics of football, but they will be once its too late.

If my points are valid...how can you not understand them?  Or did you mean to say that you don't agree with them?  Some believe in the "if you build it they will come" model...as espoused by trinbago.  I have no such faith in chance.  I think there needs be a start with the foreign-based professionals to come back and educate the younger local players as to the benefit and necessity for unionization.

I also see your points on the problem posed by foreign-based players.  I think this can best be addressed by by-laws stipulating that they cannot vote on domestic affairs, only affairs that cross over into international play/issues.  Something just seems wrong about the foreign-based Soca Warriors not having a vote (when it was largely them who inspired FPATT) and some player from a foreign country in the PFL having more say than them on FPATT affairs.  But I won't drag that out...that's for FPATT and it's membership to hash out internally.

[Football supporter]

This is the part I don't understand about your points. As valid as they are, the underlying fact is that as over the last 30 years, if we do nothing, you'll get the same result. The players at home can't see the shit heading towards the fan. We can, and thats why WE have to take responsibility. Its our game, and its your nation.

A lot of the players we're talking about are too young to think of much more than which boots to buy next. They're not interested in the politics of football, but they will be once its too late.

If my points are valid...how can you not understand them?  Or did you mean to say that you don't agree with them?  Some believe in the "if you build it they will come" model...as espoused by trinbago.  I have no such faith in chance.  I think there needs be a start with the foreign-based professionals to come back and educate the younger local players as to the benefit and necessity for unionization.

I also see your points on the problem posed by foreign-based players.  I think this can best be addressed by by-laws stipulating that they cannot vote on domestic affairs, only affairs that cross over into international play/issues.  Something just seems wrong about the foreign-based Soca Warriors not having a vote (when it was largely them who inspired FPATT) and some player from a foreign country in the PFL having more say than them on FPATT affairs.  But I won't drag that out...that's for FPATT and it's membership to hash out internally.

What I mean is, everything you say makes sense. If we were talking about lumberjacks or factory workers, I would accept your points. What I don't understand is that you are aware that the manipulation of football in T&T will continue and players will continue to be abused if there is no strong force to oppose them. The Gold Cup squad were paid a pittance. Noriega was left in hospital in the USA with questionable care from TTFF. Cornell was injured for a year with no financial assistance.

The govt can't intercede. If you wish WN to be the opposing force, then fine, get organised and oppose. The fact is, nobody will take any notice. It has to come from within football and players have the ultimate bargaining tool. They can strike. If its taking me this long to convince an intelligent person like yourself, how long will it take me to convince a 20 year old poorly educated player?

And don't forget, the players are being guided by advisers and agents, one of whom is paid by TTFF!

So, as I said, the alternative is to let FPATT fade away and let football continue its same pattern. We can't wait for 3 or 4 years for players to return to assist.

[WestCoast]

And don't forget, the players are being guided by advisers and agents, one of whom is paid by TTFF!

not Only TTFF........the clubs he has players with

would the FPATT produce a list of recommended Agents?

[Football supporter]

And don't forget, the players are being guided by advisers and agents, one of whom is paid by TTFF!

not Only TTFF........the clubs he has players with

would the FPATT produce a list of recommended Agents?

We are attempting to compile a list of ethical agents who wll not takefees from clubs and players on the same deal. This is underway. However, you all have to remember that this is new terrotory for all of us, ans we all have full time jobs to do. Things aren't moving as quickly as we'd like, but without having full time paid staff at the moment we have to do the best we can. Don't suppose anyone know an efficient secretary who can volunteer to work 20 hours a week??

[Bakes]

What I mean is, everything you say makes sense. If we were talking about lumberjacks or factory workers, I would accept your points. What I don't understand is that you are aware that the manipulation of football in T&T will continue and players will continue to be abused if there is no strong force to oppose them.


Correct...but coalescing the interest of the players FIRST...is counterproductive how?  You keep citing the end...we both agree on the end, it's the approach over which we differ.

The Gold Cup squad were paid a pittance. Noriega was left in hospital in the USA with questionable care from TTFF.

Highly debateable...but moving on.


Cornell was injured for a year with no financial assistance.

The govt can't intercede. If you wish WN to be the opposing force, then fine, get organised and oppose.

Uh uh...I wish nothing for any organization, I have no stakes in matter.  Players' rights are best advocated by players collectively, in the form of a union...on that we both agree.  Again, I just don't see how raising funds for social programs affects that end, but you don't need to convince me, if that's what your membership wants then by all means...

The fact is, nobody will take any notice. It has to come from within football and players have the ultimate bargaining tool. They can strike. If its taking me this long to convince an intelligent person like yourself, how long will it take me to convince a 20 year old poorly educated player?

What are you trying to convince me of though?  The need to organize and unionize?  Or the means by which you think it's best that this can be achieved?  I have to ask because it takes no convincing on the first question.  I think the same challenge will be faced when dealing with the young pros...you must first show them the 'why'...before you attempt to outline the 'how'.  This has been my only argument all along...Get the players behind you first.

And don't forget, the players are being guided by advisers and agents, one of whom is paid by TTFF!

So, as I said, the alternative is to let FPATT fade away and let football continue its same pattern. We can't wait for 3 or 4 years for players to return to assist.

Well we may have to agree to disagree on that....I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.  Furthermore you ultimately have more at stake than I do...I believe we care just as much, but it states the obvious to say that you are more active.  I don't want that my questions serve as a deterrrent or discouragement of the process...but you can't have answers without questions.

[Babalawo]

Throw an tri-annual fete with some Soca Artists and plenty rum.. You know them trini them like to party more than football

[weary1969]

If local players cyah see the benefit of joining FPATT fire burn dem

[elan]

It's funny that after all the Senior Warriors have been through in the last year, people would still think that it will have to take a numerous amount of effort to convince the younger guys that they need independent, professional representation in securing proper contracts with future teams.

Why would players on the U.S national team, and player from various other countries realize the importance of such representation, but our lad does not have the capacity to fathom such relevance to them and their future.
 

[WestCoast]

It's funny that after all the Senior Warriors have been through in the last year, people would still think that it will have to take a numerous amount of effort to convince the younger guys that they need independent, professional representation in securing proper contracts with future teams.

Why would players on the U.S national team, and player from various other countries realize the importance of such representation, but our lad does not have the capacity to fathom such relevance to them and their future.
 

Elan, there are still those people, some right here on this site, who say that Jackula is the BEST thing for TnT Football.
I dont see the situation that way myself, but I guess that some look at it from the view point that it will be a COLD DAY in Hell before Jackula will ever get his teeth out of TnT Football. he is making TOO much money, and unfortunately having a GREAT team of players is not in any way to his advantage as his income in NOT dependent on TnT having a GREAT group of players. If ya ketch my drift.
as we have witnessed, His power and influence within FIFA stands him in very good stead.
Some People see him and the power he wields and they may very well be dumfounded by him and are afraid to stand up for themselves. The carrot (playing football outside TnT) makes their struggle (dealing with TTFF) seem minor.

[Football supporter]

It's funny that after all the Senior Warriors have been through in the last year, people would still think that it will have to take a numerous amount of effort to convince the younger guys that they need independent, professional representation in securing proper contracts with future teams.

Why would players on the U.S national team, and player from various other countries realize the importance of such representation, but our lad does not have the capacity to fathom such relevance to them and their future.
 

Its just that the information put to those home based players is pro TTFF. Warner has a whole propaganda machine running. If you look back on this site, before FPATT, the situation over the blacklisted players wasn't really clear. Aside from Lasana, the press were giving out pro TTFF information. People on this site felt that the blacklisted players were greedy.

You has access to far more information than most of the players. They do not have a forum like this, and probably can't be bothered to come here and see whats really happening.

Also, they saw this as a chance for them to break into the national team. They think its an issue between the foreign based players and Warner. Its not their concern. Most of them don't know Stern, Dennis, Shaka, Brent and Kelvin.

To be honest, I think a lot of it is due to the mentality of people in T&T. Most people on this site are either living abroad, have lived abroad or are interested in whats happening abroad. Your horizons have widened.

The apathy that exists stems from an island mentality. Believe it or not, I come from an island in Kent. We were only seperated from the mainland by a mile, but even so, there is a different atitude. People from there were even nervous about coming to London for my wedding!

As so many people on this site have said, this should be led by the players. Most people on this site think a players union is essential. So why haven't players approached FPATT to join. We have got players signing up, but we have approached them. To my knowledge, not one player has contacted us.

So why doesn't a player at, say, WConnection get all his team mates together and contact us?

It still remains the same answer. We can either give up and let things continue as they are, or find another way. As Weary says maybe we should "burn" the players. It just means that football in T&T will continue to be run by people more interested in themselves than you guys.

I've pretty much decided that we shouldn't fund raise from the public. After over 500 views of his post, we've had 35 votes. People don't even care enough to vote "would no donate".

The same apathy exists here as with the players. We've had some interesting debates, which is always useful, but I am saddened that people would rather leave their change on a bar rather than put it in a collection box.

Without the enthusiasm of the players and supporters, whats the point?