Limited State of Emergency....

[truetrini]

the entire exercise has been an abject failure.

The police could have made the same arrests without infringing on civil rights....The SoE continues by the way!

What the government did was make a pappyshow out of crime fighting.  They had no idea what to do about the crime, despite their incessant cries of we go solve this issue within 120 days of taking office!  They had no clue and so resorted to a tool that the constitution had in place to deal with dire issues of national security.

To this day the threat continues says Minister Sandy...what a joke!

[lefty]

nothing but nothing will come of the SOE ans all the SOEs to follow as long as police evidence gathering and crime detection procedures are drastically improved, you tink any ah dem inspector an dem can make an "educated" guess based on evidence at d scene of a crime or know d first ting bout establishin ah chain of evidence, I will say it once and I will say it again we needed a team of foreign police trainers to update our police training practices we need to bring d policing courses here or conversely punish d gifting of these international courses to men who set to go on pre-retirement leave...............dat is not ah fuuckin vacation .

[Trini]

the entire exercise has been an abject failure.

The police could have made the same arrests without infringing on civil rights....The SoE continues by the way!

What the government did was make a pappyshow out of crime fighting.  They had no idea what to do about the crime, despite their incessant cries of we go solve this issue within 120 days of taking office!  They had no clue and so resorted to a tool that the constitution had in place to deal with dire issues of national security.

To this day the threat continues says Minister Sandy...what a joke!

So whats your criteria used to measure success or failure??
Even if you discount the drop in crime over the period, and accept that the SOE really only gave a boost in the arm of the protective services to get more proactive and actually do police work and make arrests, then I consider that somewhat of a success.
The tragedy is that we have to settle for statements like that and we are only spurred into action at these frantic times. Sounds a lot like the T&T football team huh.

PNM, UNC, PP, NJAC - it dont matter who in power, the police service will not just wake up one day and decide to do their jobs at a better level. So lets stop politicizing this whole thing. At the end of the day the Govt in power took a drastic action to arrest crime and violence. They must be commended for at least thinking and implementing something. What level of success it brought is another topic to debate, there are obviously pros and cons. But they DID TRY SOMETHING, and if they didnt, people woulda been saying that they no better than the previous administration. If you use the argument that they politicizing this crime fighting effort, then any thing any party ever do for the good of the nation can be put into that same category, so is best whoever in power just say "fack allyuh - lewwe just coast along every day and hope for the best?"

I know the vast majority of the population and posters here have their political allegiances, and that biases opinions. Maybe its just me as I have been trained to think analytically, wholistically and for myself that I ALWAYS look for all sides of an issue....But I for one commend the Govt in power for at least trying something. When the previous administration brought in the blimps, set up the radars and bought the OPV vessels and send the coastguard men to Portsmouth to train, I commended them on that.
When they set up SAUTT and brought in the experts from the developed countries, I commended them on that. When the UNC was in power and set up the E-999 and bought all them vehicles I commended them on that. When the UNC hanged the 10 murders under their watch I commended them on that.
But:
When the PNM decided to meet with the community leaders I lambasted them on that. When the UNC didn't support the PNM's last set of crime bills in Parliament, I lambasted them on that. When the PP decided to pull the plug on the OPV project I cuss whole day.

I commend effort.
I do not condone indifference, opposition just for politics rather than a common good, or cynicism just for cynicism's sake with no alternative suggestions that ARE REALISTIC AT THE TIME.

Just imagine you have a  hypothetical country somewhere in the world where they do a  poll and the overwhelming topic of concern is the crime and violence that destroying that country. Then the Govt go out and try something and the general population get vex with them.
Just for a minute, think about what an outsider looking in at that country will think of the mental capacity of the citizens of that country.

[truetrini]

You all over the place.  The very day before the soe, roodlal who is head of government businesses said ther was absolute no need for a soe.

Next day soe in we ass.

They did not think out anything. 

They reacted in typical knee jerk reaction, and to this day the soe continues and we have no valid reason for it in the first place.

You measure success in strange ways.   The bandits are on the street again, and.now they know the police plans.

Success?  Lock a, man up for 4 months with no charge and then he is released.  That is success?

Success is locking up the bad guys for good.  Not letting them out to sure and continue their criminality with impunity
The police don't need any damn soe to do their work.

They need leadership.  They need political will, not abrogation of civil.rights

That is banana republic thinking.

Open yuh damn eyes

[truetrini]

the entire exercise has been an abject failure.

The police could have made the same arrests without infringing on civil rights....The SoE continues by the way!

What the government did was make a pappyshow out of crime fighting.  They had no idea what to do about the crime, despite their incessant cries of we go solve this issue within 120 days of taking office!  They had no clue and so resorted to a tool that the constitution had in place to deal with dire issues of national security.

To this day the threat continues says Minister Sandy...what a joke!

So whats your criteria used to measure success or failure??

A consistent and protracted period of consistently lower levels of crime accomplished with a comprehensive crime fighting iniative.  So far we had a curfew and a State of emergency, is that a crime plan or a desperate move to appear like yuh doing something, yuh know we trinis and we small mindedness nah....

Even if you discount the drop in crime over the period, and accept that the SOE really only gave a boost in the arm of the protective services to get more proactive and actually do police work and make arrests, then I consider that somewhat of a success.
The tragedy is that we have to settle for statements like that and we are only spurred into action at these frantic times. Sounds a lot like the T&T football team huh.

So the police needed a state of emergency to get proactive?  steups, ah not buying that shit, de same way they were deployed to the streets during the SoE they could have been deployed sans an SoE and curfew with the same imperative and mission..doh try to play smart with dotishness!   Please don't compare football with the denial of civil rights..chalk and cheese!

PNM, UNC, PP, NJAC - it dont matter who in power, the police service will not just wake up one day and decide to do their jobs at a better level. So lets stop politicizing this whole thing. At the end of the day the Govt in power took a drastic action to arrest crime and violence. They must be commended for at least thinking and implementing something. What level of success it brought is another topic to debate, there are obviously pros and cons. But they DID TRY SOMETHING, and if they didnt, people woulda been saying that they no better than the previous administration. If you use the argument that they politicizing this crime fighting effort, then any thing any party ever do for the good of the nation can be put into that same category, so is best whoever in power just say "fack allyuh - lewwe just coast along every day and hope for the best?"

So how is the police service doing better now?  Just because the government du jour declared a state of emergency?  How many of the arrests led to  successful prosecutions of the so-called gangsters and big fish or little fish?   Last I saw most were set free and are now in legal wrangles to get compensated for wrongful arrests!  They did try something, they tried to hoodwink the sheeples and apparently they were successful with some.  They are no better than the last except in the eyes of their rabid and blind supporters, and in some respects they are worse!   As for coasting along and saying fack allyuh..isn't that what they did?  By making it ok for people to be plucked from the streets, to deny the right to peaceful assemblage, to deny the right to gather and protest..what is that saying?  How de f**k is a trade union march a threat to national security these days, but when they were in opposition it was cool and they encouraged the same marches?  When was a political meeting a threat to national security?  I guess when it is the opposition hyuh?  How is the prevention of political meetings and marches by trade unions a threat?  Riddle me that? 

I know the vast majority of the population and posters here have their political allegiances, and that biases opinions. Maybe its just me as I have been trained to think analytically, wholistically and for myself that I ALWAYS look for all sides of an issue....But I for one commend the Govt in power for at least trying something. When the previous administration brought in the blimps, set up the radars and bought the OPV vessels and send the coastguard men to Portsmouth to train, I commended them on that.
When they set up SAUTT and brought in the experts from the developed countries, I commended them on that. When the UNC was in power and set up the E-999 and bought all them vehicles I commended them on that. When the UNC hanged the 10 murders under their watch I commended them on that.
But:
When the PNM decided to meet with the community leaders I lambasted them on that. When the UNC didn't support the PNM's last set of crime bills in Parliament, I lambasted them on that. When the PP decided to pull the plug on the OPV project I cuss whole day.

So yuh alone does see things objectively and holistically?  lol, doh m,ake me spit out my wheaties.  Yuh could commend and lambaste til yuh blue in de gills.  this SoE was a farce and a knee jerk reaction...is like yuh commending Jack when we make it to de world cup..fella even a broken clock is right twice in a day..and this PP is no damn clock...the country is on auto pilot and if not for at least a few hard working civil servants and techonocrats we woulda be in deeper shit.

I commend effort.
I do not condone indifference, opposition just for politics rather than a common good, or cynicism just for cynicism's sake with no alternative suggestions that ARE REALISTIC AT THE TIME.

Yuh really all over de place.   The SoE come like a hail mary in yankee football, throw it up and hope.......

Just imagine you have a  hypothetical country somewhere in the world where they do a  poll and the overwhelming topic of concern is the crime and violence that destroying that country. Then the Govt go out and try something and the general population get vex with them.
Just for a minute, think about what an outsider looking in at that country will think of the mental capacity of the citizens of that country.

Just imagine in that same hypothetical country yuh had a hypothetical working government!  Imagine that eh, and yuh had these hypothetical people in dat country that were serious thinkers....I bet you none ah dem woulda support the arbitrary abrogation of civil rights, but in this here Green fig republic..is anything!

[Controversial]

the entire exercise has been an abject failure.

The police could have made the same arrests without infringing on civil rights....The SoE continues by the way!

What the government did was make a pappyshow out of crime fighting.  They had no idea what to do about the crime, despite their incessant cries of we go solve this issue within 120 days of taking office!  They had no clue and so resorted to a tool that the constitution had in place to deal with dire issues of national security.

To this day the threat continues says Minister Sandy...what a joke!

So whats your criteria used to measure success or failure??

A consistent and protracted period of consistently lower levels of crime accomplished with a comprehensive crime fighting iniative.  So far we had a curfew and a State of emergency, is that a crime plan or a desperate move to appear like yuh doing something, yuh know we trinis and we small mindedness nah....

Even if you discount the drop in crime over the period, and accept that the SOE really only gave a boost in the arm of the protective services to get more proactive and actually do police work and make arrests, then I consider that somewhat of a success.
The tragedy is that we have to settle for statements like that and we are only spurred into action at these frantic times. Sounds a lot like the T&T football team huh.

So the police needed a state of emergency to get proactive?  steups, ah not buying that shit, de same way they were deployed to the streets during the SoE they could have been deployed sans an SoE and curfew with the same imperative and mission..doh try to play smart with dotishness!   Please don't compare football with the denial of civil rights..chalk and cheese!

PNM, UNC, PP, NJAC - it dont matter who in power, the police service will not just wake up one day and decide to do their jobs at a better level. So lets stop politicizing this whole thing. At the end of the day the Govt in power took a drastic action to arrest crime and violence. They must be commended for at least thinking and implementing something. What level of success it brought is another topic to debate, there are obviously pros and cons. But they DID TRY SOMETHING, and if they didnt, people woulda been saying that they no better than the previous administration. If you use the argument that they politicizing this crime fighting effort, then any thing any party ever do for the good of the nation can be put into that same category, so is best whoever in power just say "fack allyuh - lewwe just coast along every day and hope for the best?"

So how is the police service doing better now?  Just because the government du jour declared a state of emergency?  How many of the arrests led to  successful prosecutions of the so-called gangsters and big fish or little fish?   Last I saw most were set free and are now in legal wrangles to get compensated for wrongful arrests!  They did try something, they tried to hoodwink the sheeples and apparently they were successful with some.  They are no better than the last except in the eyes of their rabid and blind supporters, and in some respects they are worse!   As for coasting along and saying fack allyuh..isn't that what they did?  By making it ok for people to be plucked from the streets, to deny the right to peaceful assemblage, to deny the right to gather and protest..what is that saying?  How de f**k is a trade union march a threat to national security these days, but when they were in opposition it was cool and they encouraged the same marches?  When was a political meeting a threat to national security?  I guess when it is the opposition hyuh?  How is the prevention of political meetings and marches by trade unions a threat?  Riddle me that? 

I know the vast majority of the population and posters here have their political allegiances, and that biases opinions. Maybe its just me as I have been trained to think analytically, wholistically and for myself that I ALWAYS look for all sides of an issue....But I for one commend the Govt in power for at least trying something. When the previous administration brought in the blimps, set up the radars and bought the OPV vessels and send the coastguard men to Portsmouth to train, I commended them on that.
When they set up SAUTT and brought in the experts from the developed countries, I commended them on that. When the UNC was in power and set up the E-999 and bought all them vehicles I commended them on that. When the UNC hanged the 10 murders under their watch I commended them on that.
But:
When the PNM decided to meet with the community leaders I lambasted them on that. When the UNC didn't support the PNM's last set of crime bills in Parliament, I lambasted them on that. When the PP decided to pull the plug on the OPV project I cuss whole day.

So yuh alone does see things objectively and holistically?  lol, doh m,ake me spit out my wheaties.  Yuh could commend and lambaste til yuh blue in de gills.  this SoE was a farce and a knee jerk reaction...is like yuh commending Jack when we make it to de world cup..fella even a broken clock is right twice in a day..and this PP is no damn clock...the country is on auto pilot and if not for at least a few hard working civil servants and techonocrats we woulda be in deeper shit.

I commend effort.
I do not condone indifference, opposition just for politics rather than a common good, or cynicism just for cynicism's sake with no alternative suggestions that ARE REALISTIC AT THE TIME.

Yuh really all over de place.   The SoE come like a hail mary in yankee football, throw it up and hope.......

Just imagine you have a  hypothetical country somewhere in the world where they do a  poll and the overwhelming topic of concern is the crime and violence that destroying that country. Then the Govt go out and try something and the general population get vex with them.
Just for a minute, think about what an outsider looking in at that country will think of the mental capacity of the citizens of that country.

Just imagine in that same hypothetical country yuh had a hypothetical working government!  Imagine that eh, and yuh had these hypothetical people in dat country that were serious thinkers....I bet you none ah dem woulda support the arbitrary abrogation of civil rights, but in this here Green fig republic..is anything!

having remembered that you stated you were in the US Navy or Army (correct me if I am wrong), in your opinion what are some measures the government could have taken to alleviate the criminal elements within our country and address the impending problems with our police force? 

[Socapro]

You all over the place.  The very day before the soe, roodlal who is head of government businesses said ther was absolute no need for a soe.

Next day soe in we ass.

They did not think out anything. 

They reacted in typical knee jerk reaction, and to this day the soe continues and we have no valid reason for it in the first place.

You measure success in strange ways.   The bandits are on the street again, and.now they know the police plans.

Success?  Lock a, man up for 4 months with no charge and then he is released.  That is success?

Success is locking up the bad guys for good.  Not letting them out to sure and continue their criminality with impunity
The police don't need any damn soe to do their work.

They need leadership.  They need political will, not abrogation of civil.rights

That is banana republic thinking.

Open yuh damn eyes

 

The reason the government can get away with this dotishness SoE continuing is because there are currently so many dotish or traumatised people living in T&T who are so desperate for some relief from crime that they will accept almost anything that is presented to them as a crime fighting tool!

Fix the police force with their evidence gathering and crime fighting procedures, root out police corruption and give the criminals once caught longer jail sentences and even bring back hanging, etc and crime will be reduced dramatically in T&T!

These things do not require a SoE but I would have still rated the SoE as successful even if just one BIG Fish who brings drugs and guns into the country to feed criminal behaviour and gang warfare was caught but not one BIG fish has been caught so far!!

This SoE has been one big mamaguy but dotish and traumatised folks who are not thinking logically will fall for it hook line and sinker!

[Bakes]

I know the vast majority of the population and posters here have their political allegiances, and that biases opinions. Maybe its just me as I have been trained to think analytically, wholistically and for myself that I ALWAYS look for all sides of an issue....But I for one commend the Govt in power for at least trying something. When the previous administration brought in the blimps, set up the radars and bought the OPV vessels and send the coastguard men to Portsmouth to train, I commended them on that.

For all your supposed training you talking ah pack ah "wholistic" shit.

[truetrini]

Controversial, being in the military is not qualification fro crime fighting!

Dais why Sandy is shit!

Dat said, the same way yuh could have the police on the streets in numbers with the soldiers and dem, and de Coast Guard stepping up sea patrols...why a SoE needed?

De same way yuh command dem to hit de road during the SoE why not before?

The trouble is leadership and lack of training.

Plain and simple, imagine a home invasion and ah rape in T&T the Sautt men arrive to find de duct tape used to bind and gag the victim was under a police man boots!!!

They still was using black and white film in this day and age of digital imaging!

The police always finding big drug hauls and rarely ever holding the men behind the drugs..ask why!

Imagine drugs, money and guns and ammo in the ceiling of ah senior police office office..wha dey do?  Dey went and move it and make big headlines, instead ah watching the place with hidden surveillance and busting whoever behind it...they den transfer police to other stations..dais detective wuk?

Soe and curfew is stop gap measures when yuh desperate and have no idea...imagine Sandy say de threat remains but dey remove de curfew...steups..carry on smartly sheeples...allyuh have bags ah wool..ting is all de wool over allyuh eye!

[Socapro]

Controversial, being in the military is not qualification fro crime fighting!

Dais why Sandy is shit!

Dat said, the same way yuh could have the police on the streets in numbers with the soldiers and dem, and de Coast Guard stepping up sea patrols...why a SoE needed?

De same way yuh command dem to hit de road during the SoE why not before?

The trouble is leadership and lack of training.

Plain and simple, imagine a home invasion and ah rape in T&T the Sautt men arrive to find de duct tape used to bind and gag the victim was under a police man boots!!!

They still was using black and white film in this day and age of digital imaging!

The police always finding big drug hauls and rarely ever holding the men behind the drugs..ask why!

Imagine drugs, money and guns and ammo in the ceiling of ah senior police office office..wha dey do?  Dey went and move it and make big headlines, instead ah watching the place with hidden surveillance and busting whoever behind it...they den transfer police to other stations..dais detective wuk?

Soe and curfew is stop gap measures when yuh desperate and have no idea...imagine Sandy say de threat remains but dey remove de curfew...steups..carry on smartly sheeples...allyuh have bags ah wool..ting is all de wool over allyuh eye!

Too much dotish/gullible/controversial people living in T&T these days which is why they voted in the current government and getting what they deserve now!!

No one with an ounce of intelligence would back this SoE that the government called and up to now they can't give a justifiable reason for calling it or keeping it going this long!!

Here are the three main reasons why the government called the SoE but don't want to say in the hope that generally dotish/gullible/controversial people in T&T cyah work it out!

1. The Unions cyah strike and protest about pensions, 5% pay-rise, etc

2. They could fool dotish people and make them feel they trying to do something serious about fighting crime but not one big fish who probably help to fund their election campaign getting catch!

3. The year to year crime figures will now artificially show that they doing a better job at reducing crime than previous government when the truth is all they do is press the pause button during a crime movie!

Right now ah calling on all the intelligent folks who left T&T to head back home and help as the country need allyuh bad because is like the general population left back home are the dotish/gullible ones who willing to put up with all this nonsense the current government doing plus is them gullible ones self who vote them in!

[Brownsugar]

I know the vast majority of the population and posters here have their political allegiances, and that biases opinions. Maybe its just me as I have been trained to think analytically, wholistically and for myself that I ALWAYS look for all sides of an issue....But I for one commend the Govt in power for at least trying something.

Suspending the civil rights of citizens in order to "try something" makes sense to you??  Steups!!  You sound like the fellas The Mighty Sparrow sang about in "Well Spoken Moppers".   They tried to sound educated and proper but kept using all the wrong terms, words and phrases in their effort to greet and praise him.  In the end they just ended up talking a pack of shyte......just like you.....

[Brownsugar]

ROBO COP set free!!!...

 

oooohhh gggaaarrrddd oooyyeee.....aye.....de "Big fish" get let go!!   The SOE is a success man.....

f*&%(*%$ng idiots!!!....

[dinho]

Trini dread, i feel like you take the words straight off my keyboard... Mind the wolves label yuh all kinda PP apologist now.

I personally was disappointed with several aspects to do with how the SoE was implemented and executed and alot of things could have been done better. I'm especially disappointed that proper due diligence wasn't done before going after known criminals, leaving the legal loopholes open for them to be released. I expected to see bigger weapons and ammunition hauls and more decisive blows to criminals.

Also, i don't discount the obvious political motivation behind the exercise, namely the stifling of the union movement. I can't tell allyuh when last I hear the term "5%".

My opinion is that they decided to call the SoE at first as a matter of urgency, but then they realize after the fact what could be accomplished across the board with it (politically too), and kinda make up the whole thing as they went along.

Nevertheless, I commend them for taking bold, drastic action and like allyuh say "trying something". And everyone who clamoring that an SoE was not needed i see as being disingenious.

All the suggestions being offered as alternatives to the SoE, like putting more police on the streets or stepping up patrols or issuing directives simply "getting police to do their jobs", is the same alternatives that were being parrotted for how much years. Allyuh make it sound so easy to change a deep rooted cultural mindset.. The fact is, all of those alternatives COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

Getting the criminal element in Trinidad to respect the power of our security forces, garnering intelligence and letting criminals know that they are being monitored and "shaking shit up" so to speak, COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

Getting the society on the whole to have respect for the law again and understand that we are not living in a lawless society, COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

So if 6 months to a year down the road, I see that the level of crime, murders and state of society reverts to its pre-SoE state i will say that it was a failed exercise. And I will feel real hopeless too, because it will be like nothing we do could help we.

If however I see some kinda lasting effects, an overall reduction in crime and a positive societal change, then i'm not sure how people can discount the success of the SoE.

[Brownsugar]

So if 6 months to a year down the road, I see that the level of crime, murders and state of society reverts to its pre-SoE state i will say that it was a failed exercise. And I will feel real hopeless too, because it will be like nothing we do could help we.

If however I see some kinda lasting effects, an overall reduction in crime and a positive societal change, then i'm not sure how people can discount the success of the SoE.

You see I think that is the difference between me and you.  Besides me being a PNM and you being a PP....   You keep wanting to adopt a wait and see approach as though you expecting some kinda strategy, or plan or vision or goal or objective to be revealed in time to come.  And I keep trying to tell yuh it eh have none so doh  bother to wait and see nutten......but yuh harden, like stick break in yuh ears.....you keep wanting to light flambeaux in de night to see trouble when you could see it in broad daylight.

Honestly, Dinho at the start of this SOE/curfew, ent you did expect them fellas who were held to make some serious jail time??  Ent you didn't expect them to be back out on the streets so soon??  What were your expectations at the start because to come and say you disappointed now kinda like shifting the goal post.  And you talk about not being able to change a culture overnight, so what was expected with a three month SOE/curfew??   Especially since NUTTEN eh change behind the scenes in the way the police/army operates.....so what we really went through all this drama for??  And tell mih why we still have the SOE in place??  What sense does it make now?? 

You is the same Dinho who say when Jack first reach on the scene and start to outline this and outline that to give him time and measure him by the deadline he sets.  Alright then, where the personalised number plates??  Where the reformed Licensing??  Flooding solved yet??   Ah saying that to say, doh forget to check we back in 6 months - year to tell we how things going eh......I hoping I wrong but mih eh seeing nutten on the horizon to tell I am.......

[Brownsugar]

Trini dread, i feel like you take the words straight off my keyboard... Mind the wolves label yuh all kinda PP apologist now.

Btw, who you calling a wolf??    

[Socapro]

Trini dread, i feel like you take the words straight off my keyboard... Mind the wolves label yuh all kinda PP apologist now.

I personally was disappointed with several aspects to do with how the SoE was implemented and executed and alot of things could have been done better. I'm especially disappointed that proper due diligence wasn't done before going after known criminals, leaving the legal loopholes open for them to be released. I expected to see bigger weapons and ammunition hauls and more decisive blows to criminals.

Also, i don't discount the obvious political motivation behind the exercise, namely the stifling of the union movement. I can't tell allyuh when last I hear the term "5%".

My opinion is that they decided to call the SoE at first as a matter of urgency, but then they realize after the fact what could be accomplished across the board with it (politically too), and kinda make up the whole thing as they went along.

Nevertheless, I commend them for taking bold, drastic action and like allyuh say "trying something". And everyone who clamoring that an SoE was not needed i see as being disingenious.

All the suggestions being offered as alternatives to the SoE, like putting more police on the streets or stepping up patrols or issuing directives simply "getting police to do their jobs", is the same alternatives that were being parrotted for how much years. Allyuh make it sound so easy to change a deep rooted cultural mindset.. The fact is, all of those alternatives COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

Getting the criminal element in Trinidad to respect the power of our security forces, garnering intelligence and letting criminals know that they are being monitored and "shaking shit up" so to speak, COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

Getting the society on the whole to have respect for the law again and understand that we are not living in a lawless society, COULD NOT be effected without some sort of intervention.

So if 6 months to a year down the road, I see that the level of crime, murders and state of society reverts to its pre-SoE state i will say that it was a failed exercise. And I will feel real hopeless too, because it will be like nothing we do could help we.

If however I see some kinda lasting effects, an overall reduction in crime and a positive societal change, then i'm not sure how people can discount the success of the SoE.

The whole argument of trying to use a SoE as a long term crime fighting measure and trampling on the rights of the average citizen as a result is a seriously flawed one!

Using a SoE in this regard is equivalent to pressing the pause button during a “Terminator” movie because you find that Arnold has killed way too many people in the last 15 minutes and yuh need a little break from the killing and bloodshed! If you don't deal with the reason why Arnold is killing everything that moves during the break then he will continue to kill at the same rate as he was doing when you release the pause button for the movie to continue!

The fact that no big fish get caught so far during this SoE means that all the conditions for crime are the same as it was before the SoE was called and in fact some criminals may be out to make up for lost time once the SoE is lifted!

[g]

Doing something different to the norm without properly thinking through the steps to effective implementation utlimately renders said difference to be the same.

[weary1969]

Doing something different to the norm without properly thinking through the steps to effective implementation utlimately renders said difference to be the same.

Nah they try ah ting so we should b doin cartwheels.

[Football supporter]

I believe history will record the SOE and curfew as one of the greatest acts of desperation ever carried out by a T&T government. They are only safe because the opposition is so poor. I heard Herbert Volney speaking this morning. His answer to every question was to blame the PNM for politicising everything. He then continued and blamed the PNM for whatever topic was dicussed:

The new DNA act? PNM only objecting for the sake of objecting. None of them are legally trained. It takes months of work by the best legal minds to construct a bill that works.

The Anti Gang laws? The PP gave respect to PNM by including their clauses. Before that, it was perfect. It only didn't work because the police didn't understand it. The crime problem was allowed to spiral under PNM.

The $60 million NEC fraud disclosed this week? Thats not my department...its the Finance Minister. If there were loopholes in procedures under the PNMs watch, we haven't had time to deal with it yet.

The thing is this. The govt have still refused to divulge the reason for the SOE that would make 1990 look like a tea party. Why the panic?

Why did no one from the govt take time to work with the protective services to explain the boundaries in which they could operate within.

Why wasn't the Santa Rosa compound prepared in advance?

Why did the govt call the SOE when Gibbs was out of the country?

Why didn't govt request help from other countries to ensure the big fish were caught?

Why did the govt not request to borrow additional equipment such as choppers equipped with infra red scopes, additional drug locating equipment, mobile phone and email interception equipment?

I have no problem with the curfew or SOE if it was conducted properly and the real criminal rings were smashed. However, I do have a problem with being lied to and fed a bucket load of govt propaganda.

This was nothing more than political kneejerking. Maybe if the 236 arrested under the Anti Gang legislation were tried and imprisoned, we could have supported it. But all I see is a lot of people who had outstanding warrants being re arrested, a load of rusty old guns are off the streets and we found a diesel scam.

This is not a worthwhile return for removing peoples rights.

And if the panic is over, why can't unions or political parties meet? There is absoloutely no need to deny them their rights...if fact, they should have been issued licences so they could meet inside the curfew.

But its all ok, coz now we have parang and big business can make their profits. Who wants to bet that curfew returns in March?   

[Brownsugar]

Doing something different to the norm without properly thinking through the steps to effective implementation utlimately renders said difference to be the same.

  
Deep.  Profound.  Well said, Mr. G.  Well said.......

[Brownsugar]

I believe history will record the SOE and curfew as one of the greatest acts of desperation ever carried out by a T&T government. They are only safe because the opposition is so poor. I heard Herbert Volney speaking this morning. His answer to every question was to blame the PNM for politicising everything. He then continued and blamed the PNM for whatever topic was dicussed:

The new DNA act? PNM only objecting for the sake of objecting. None of them are legally trained. It takes months of work by the best legal minds to construct a bill that works.

The Anti Gang laws? The PP gave respect to PNM by including their clauses. Before that, it was perfect. It only didn't work because the police didn't understand it. The crime problem was allowed to spiral under PNM.

The $60 million NEC fraud disclosed this week? Thats not my department...its the Finance Minister. If there were loopholes in procedures under the PNMs watch, we haven't had time to deal with it yet.

The thing is this. The govt have still refused to divulge the reason for the SOE that would make 1990 look like a tea party. Why the panic?

Why did no one from the govt take time to work with the protective services to explain the boundaries in which they could operate within.

Why wasn't the Santa Rosa compound prepared in advance?

Why did the govt call the SOE when Gibbs was out of the country?

Why didn't govt request help from other countries to ensure the big fish were caught?

Why did the govt not request to borrow additional equipment such as choppers equipped with infra red scopes, additional drug locating equipment, mobile phone and email interception equipment?

I have no problem with the curfew or SOE if it was conducted properly and the real criminal rings were smashed. However, I do have a problem with being lied to and fed a bucket load of govt propaganda.

This was nothing more than political kneejerking. Maybe if the 236 arrested under the Anti Gang legislation were tried and imprisoned, we could have supported it. But all I see is a lot of people who had outstanding warrants being re arrested, a load of rusty old guns are off the streets and we found a diesel scam.

This is not a worthwhile return for removing peoples rights.

And if the panic is over, why can't unions or political parties meet? There is absoloutely no need to deny them their rights...if fact, they should have been issued licences so they could meet inside the curfew.

But its all ok, coz now we have parang and big business can make their profits. Who wants to bet that curfew returns in March?   

FS, what wrong with you??  Yuh asking too many questions......doh hot up yuh head.  Just go down on the Avenue and fete yourself away tonight.......the government know what dey doing......leave it to them..........*singing and dancing*  "No curfew, no curfew"......

[Trini]

Ahh, finally a post that looks at the issue objectively!
Try to address your very valid questions.

I believe history will record the SOE and curfew as one of the greatest acts of desperation ever carried out by a T&T government. They are only safe because the opposition is so poor. I agree. Your post here make more sense than Rowley et al in the last 2 months. I heard Herbert Volney speaking this morning. His answer to every question was to blame the PNM for politicising everything. He then continued and blamed the PNM for whatever topic was dicussed: I Don't pay Volney too much mind, he represents everything that is wrong with T&T politics

The new DNA act? PNM only objecting for the sake of objecting. None of them are legally trained. It takes months of work by the best legal minds to construct a bill that works. Agreed.

The Anti Gang laws? The PP gave respect to PNM by including their clauses. Before that, it was perfect. It only didn't work because the police didn't understand it. The ultimate responsibility lies with the lawmakers aka politicians. This is the biggest embarassment I have seen since maybe when the last administration say that the eye in the sky was not really functioning, it was just being used like a scarecrow on the promenade. Blams has to be shared with the Govt/legal dept in the police dept and the investigators who build these cases. The rank and file Police Force not really at fault, they get their orders on who to pickup when. The crime problem was allowed to spiral under PNM. Partly true, but I honestly believe no other party would have made a significant difference. This is also a global phenomenon in developing countries over the last 10-15 years tied to many many different causes. The PNM must be complimented for some measures, no matter what effect it eventually had - the Blimp, the 360 degree radar, the OPV vessels, the anti-kidnapping laws and external help in arresting the problem in 2008 (FBI namely and the Balo Maharaj case which changed the game), community police initiatives, etc etc. They did quite a bit, but it proved not to be enough, so Volney not being fair here. Maybe he just remembers the disaster that was the Govt negotiating with the community leaders strategy?[/color]

The $60 million NEC fraud disclosed this week? Thats not my department...its the Finance Minister. If there were loopholes in procedures under the PNMs watch, we haven't had time to deal with it yet.

The thing is this. The govt have still refused to divulge the reason for the SOE that would make 1990 look like a tea party. Why the panic? Didn't they do this with the drug intel about the big seizure to an extent?? Obviously for security reasons you cant get into too much of that.

Why did no one from the govt take time to work with the protective services to explain the boundaries in which they could operate within.
I am very sure this was done to painstaking measures with the relevant legal representation. This is not the problem of the SoE, except for the argument about being in your yard vs being in the road.

Why wasn't the Santa Rosa compound prepared in advance? Very good point. But then you could argue a case for timely intervention. But still good point.

Why did the govt call the SOE when Gibbs was out of the country? Very good point again. This I think was not done right. I dont agree with the criticism with the PM leaving the country during the SoE, but I agree that the commish should have been there when this was announced.

Why didn't govt request help from other countries to ensure the big fish were caught? Good point. But one has to ask, what was the purpose of the SoE? Was it to arrest an imminent threat or to catch the big fish? Obviously you want to do both, but a lot of the talk about big fish only came about when the politics started about the police herding up young black kids like cattle. Big fish in T&T are notoriously rare - dont you all know this??? Manning once said he knew of one - his frist name was MR and his last name was BIG. Still couldn't reel him in then....

Why did the govt not request to borrow additional equipment such as choppers equipped with infra red scopes, additional drug locating equipment, mobile phone and email interception equipment? Good point again.

I have no problem with the curfew or SOE if it was conducted properly and the real criminal rings were smashed. However, I do have a problem with being lied to and fed a bucket load of govt propaganda.

This was nothing more than political kneejerking. Maybe if the 236 arrested under the Anti Gang legislation were tried and imprisoned, we could have supported it. But all I see is a lot of people who had outstanding warrants being re arrested, a load of rusty old guns are off the streets and we found a diesel scam. So here is the big disconnect - the SoE and the Anti-Gang legislation recently passed are 2 separate things, you dont need a SoE to arrest people for gangs. Just because they messed up royally on the latter means the former was a total waste of time. Use other arguments like above to do that.
[/color]
This is not a worthwhile return for removing peoples rights. Depends on who you ask. I suspect the wildly popular Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Ho Chi Minh will disagree with you on that...

And if the panic is over, why can't unions or political parties meet? There is absoloutely no need to deny them their rights...if fact, they should have been issued licences so they could meet inside the curfew. Agreed

But its all ok, coz now we have parang and big business can make their profits. Who wants to bet that curfew returns in March? I will take that bet! The curfew has outlived its usefullness. I agreed with it when it was implemented, but it began to see diminishing returns.

Pro, truetrini, Brownsugar, Bakes - I respect allyuh opinions, I know I does talk shit when I ready, at the end of the day I just want Trinidad to be safer than what we now come to expect as the norm. Whether the SoE will be a success in the long term, we just hadda wait and see. Kinda like with hangings in 1998 - When Dole and the crew was hanged, practically no murders, or maybe just a handful for a whole month in June (Kamla was lying when she said last month was lowest in 20 years), but in the long run, murders increased the year after and continued to do so almost consistently for the next 10 years. Maybe they should have kept hangings going?? I suspect that after the initial shock to the population, murders would have have began to increase slowly again if they had continued to do so...But same thing with this SoE - for 2 and 1/2 months a dramatic reduction in crime, so if u use that metric, they had some success. All we can do now and see what happens in the future as Omar say....

[dinho]

So if 6 months to a year down the road, I see that the level of crime, murders and state of society reverts to its pre-SoE state i will say that it was a failed exercise. And I will feel real hopeless too, because it will be like nothing we do could help we.

If however I see some kinda lasting effects, an overall reduction in crime and a positive societal change, then i'm not sure how people can discount the success of the SoE.

You see I think that is the difference between me and you.  Besides me being a PNM and you being a PP....   You keep wanting to adopt a wait and see approach as though you expecting some kinda strategy, or plan or vision or goal or objective to be revealed in time to come.  And I keep trying to tell yuh it eh have none so doh  bother to wait and see nutten......but yuh harden, like stick break in yuh ears.....you keep wanting to light flambeaux in de night to see trouble when you could see it in broad daylight.

Honestly, Dinho at the start of this SOE/curfew, ent you did expect them fellas who were held to make some serious jail time??  Ent you didn't expect them to be back out on the streets so soon??  What were your expectations at the start because to come and say you disappointed now kinda like shifting the goal post.  And you talk about not being able to change a culture overnight, so what was expected with a three month SOE/curfew??   Especially since NUTTEN eh change behind the scenes in the way the police/army operates.....so what we really went through all this drama for??  And tell mih why we still have the SOE in place??  What sense does it make now?? 

You is the same Dinho who say when Jack first reach on the scene and start to outline this and outline that to give him time and measure him by the deadline he sets.  Alright then, where the personalised number plates??  Where the reformed Licensing??  Flooding solved yet??   Ah saying that to say, doh forget to check we back in 6 months - year to tell we how things going eh......I hoping I wrong but mih eh seeing nutten on the horizon to tell I am.......

Easy yuhself sugar, its not about shifting the goalpost. At the start, i said clearly at the time what my short term expectations were and i was very willing to give the SoE a chance. Now that the SoE is done, above I clearly stated where i thought it fell short of those expectations and why i was disappointed, and i am stating my parameters for judging success/failure of it all. It is really that simple.

You labelling me PP where in truth in fact i have no affiliation to any political party, in fact have no faith in politicians on the whole. This is why my position is malleable at times, i could see both sides of the equation. Truthfully, I just enjoy swimming against the PNM undercurrent here on this forum.

You on the other hand being a self professed staunch PNM seem wholly incapable of having any such parameters or measurements of success/failure. The fact that you choose to use Jack as an example, knowing fully well that he is the best performing minister in the administration (possibly among the best performing ministers i have seen operate in Trinidad from since i know anything about politics), and knowing fully well that his role has marginalized since then says plenty about what you bowling.

Of course, lets not even discuss the fact that the SoE was on an overall basis very popular here even among those in the business community suffering losses. But of course, as the learned posters on here who know best would tell it all that is just signs of an "immature population". Smh

I dunno why i keep forgetting that it is basically pointless to argue politics.

[truetrini]

Riddle me this...Why did the Leader of Government Business in the House say just the day before the Soe That there was absolutely no reason for a SoE..and then the next day..SoE in allyuh pweffen....just think about that.

The man was labeled the heir apparent and he and all did not know it was in de making the very day before it was implemented.

Steups..Bold?  Nah  drastic...nah..Desperate to stifle civil disobedience?  YES!

[dinho]

Riddle me this...Why did the Leader of Government Business in the House say just the day before the Soe That there was absolutely no reason for a SoE..and then the next day..SoE in allyuh pweffen....just think about that.

The man was labeled the heir apparent and he and all did not know it was in de making the very day before it was implemented.

Steups..Bold?  Nah  drastic...nah..Desperate to stifle civil disobedience?  YES!

How you know he didn't know.

How you know he wasn't playing dead to ketch corbeaux alive? (Even though dey end up leggoing plenty corbeaux)

[Bakes]

Nevertheless, I commend them for taking bold, drastic action and like allyuh say "trying something". And everyone who clamoring that an SoE was not needed i see as being disingenious.

"disingenious"?  Yuh just see big word and "trying something" or what?  Apart from the fact that the word does not exist... even if used accurately it would be misapplied.  There is nothing at all disingenuous about the criticism of the SoE as being unnecessary... it's simple logic, to be honest.  If police are using their 'regular' powers now to do the things they are doing under the SoE, without having to use their actual 'emergency' powers, then it means their emergency powers are not necessary to the action.  If the emergency powers aren't necessary, then the purpose of invoking said emergency powers, i.e. declaration of the SoE is similarly unnecessary.  See how that works?

As for this talk about people wasn't respecting police and criminals wasn't taking police serious... *chortle*... so daiz what was behind the crime surge all these years?  Dai'z what was standing in the way of effective policing?

Facking jokers.

[Brownsugar]

You on the other hand being a self professed staunch PNM seem wholly incapable of having any such parameters or measurements of success/failure.

Dinho, before I address anything else you find ah post where I professed to be a staunch PNM supporter........Ah think you getting tie up with my posts where I am being sarcastic having already being "labelled" PNM by forumites simply because I choose not to accept the crap parading for governance currently.  So if you discard the posts where I'm being sarcastic about being PNM, you find one thread or post where I have stated in no uncertain terms that I am a PNM supporter....... 

Just one....

[dinho]

You on the other hand being a self professed staunch PNM seem wholly incapable of having any such parameters or measurements of success/failure.

Dinho, before I address anything else you find ah post where I professed to be a staunch PNM supporter........Ah think you getting tie up with my posts where I am being sarcastic having already being "labelled" PNM by forumites simply because I choose not to accept the crap parading for governance currently.  So if you discard the posts where I'm being sarcastic about being PNM, you find one thread or post where I have stated in no uncertain terms that I am a PNM supporter....... 

Just one....

Hard luck dey i missed the sarcasm, my bad.

Proceed..

[Brownsugar]

Riddle me this...Why did the Leader of Government Business in the House say just the day before the Soe That there was absolutely no reason for a SoE..and then the next day..SoE in allyuh pweffen....just think about that.

The man was labeled the heir apparent and he and all did not know it was in de making the very day before it was implemented.

Steups..Bold?  Nah  drastic...nah..Desperate to stifle civil disobedience?  YES!

Truetrini, I could go even further back than that and I have said it many times and I'll say it again.  For about 2 - 3 weeks before the SOE government Ministers, Gypsy in particular, was up and down the airwaves touting the plans this government had in place, that the murder rate was down, the plans they have in place will take time to bring results etc. etc.   If I'm not mistaken I think I heard him either the Friday before the SOE or certainly that same week leading up to the SOE.

And then bam!!  just so, just so we get an SOE.  Now that indicates to me a lack of cohesion, incoherence and inconsistency.  So I say alright, maybe dey was putting things in place behind de scenes for an SOE and just didn't want anybody to know......but clearly everything I have seen thus far indicates what I have been saying all along......this SOE was knee jerk and was not based in any kind of strategy, plan or vision.  Just the way they are running the country........

But yeah, because I eh swallowing de propaganda and ah refuse to bend over, I am PNM.....steups!!!!  Jokers!!!!     

[Socapro]

Doing something different to the norm without properly thinking through the steps to effective implementation utlimately renders said difference to be the same.

  
Deep.  Profound.  Well said, Mr. G.  Well said.......

I am sorry to say this but the men here who saying "well at least they try something" regards calling the SoE and ain't thinking about what you just pointed out are as gullible as they come and as dumb as door mats!!